Defending and Keeping a Clean Sheet: A forgotten art and an all too often overlooked tactical ideology

[Barnsley FC]

Law Man there is a newer version of the beta patch - only played preseason so far but does seem better.

[hyperion666]

yep same, no matter what I do there will be a wonder goal and a free kick or a random deflection, and I won't score with defensive tactics. So when I concede It is harder to get into the game again.

Yes I do tell my players to force the long range shooters on to their wrong foot, and close them down etc etc.

[Law_Man]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Barnsley FC:

Law Man there is a newer version of the beta patch - only played preseason so far but does seem better. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Downloaded it about an hour ago mate And yep I completely agree with you, looks like finishing and shooting on target has been improved. Just just started a game and created a 4-4-1-1 with my team Bolton and Anelka, Nolan, Gourcuff, Diouf, Kewell, and Whilhelmson look pretty slick.

[Barnsley FC]

Law Man I decided to carry on as lots of people showed their support. Have you managed to find a good corner routine yet?

[Law_Man]

Nope I'm et to find one that works consistently, but then I've not really had good corner takers yet.... I'm using the one from the FAQ so hopefully if I get a decent corner taker at any point I might start scoring a few as other people claim to be!

[golden_goal]

very frustrating to continually lose leads in the last 10 minutes.

I'm trying everything to keep clean sheets, but have managed only 1 in seven games, despite often being ahead going into the final 10 minutes of the game.

any thoughts, on how to combat this? Obviously teams will throw it all forward, but my attempts to soak the pressure and counter are foiled, as it would seem, are my attempts to kill the game off by going for the jugular....

[golden_goal]

very frustrating to continually lose leads in the last 10 minutes.

I'm trying everything to keep clean sheets, but have managed only 1 in seven games, despite often being ahead going into the final 10 minutes of the game.

any thoughts, on how to combat this? Obviously teams will throw it all forward, but my attempts to soak the pressure and counter are foiled, as it would seem, are my attempts to kill the game off by going for the jugular....

[specialsam9]

can u up load the tactic plz

[Britrock]

Playing with Chelmsford in the Blue Square South, I went 42 games and conceded 30 goals, and so far in the Blue Square Premier I've played 21 games and conceded 18 goals.

I played 4-1-4-1 last year and have just moved to 4-1-2-2-1 (with AML/R) and achieved this with a bunch of free signings. It probably helped that most of the strikers in the 2 leagues couldn't hit a barn door from 5 yds though.

[Law_Man]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by golden_goal:

very frustrating to continually lose leads in the last 10 minutes.

I'm trying everything to keep clean sheets, but have managed only 1 in seven games, despite often being ahead going into the final 10 minutes of the game.

any thoughts, on how to combat this? Obviously teams will throw it all forward, but my attempts to soak the pressure and counter are foiled, as it would seem, are my attempts to kill the game off by going for the jugular.... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

In my experience so far in FM it seems (unfortunately) that attack is the best form of defense. What usually happens for me is that I'll go in at half time 1-0 or 2-0 up and then be biting my fingers the entire second half as the opposition plays much better than the first half. This then leaves me in a quandary, should I go defensive and hope to hang on or should I leave things as they are to try and get another goal and kill the game off.

In terms of defending a lead, I usually increaee time wasting to often, lower creative freedom for the whole team, and put forward runs to rarely for the full backs, and mixed for the midfield. I also lower the full back mentality slightly too.

[ScottehFTM]

Heh it's funny i bumped into this thread today.

Lastnight i had been watching the Capello press conference and it inspired me to go all Itallian on my Sunderland team.

Recently i had been playing defensivley, using 4-4-2, with a direct, quick paced, counter attacking mentality (was succesful in FM07 - doesn't seem to be the case in FM08).

In my first season i was relegated, second season won the CC and now in my third season i'm back in the bottom three, and its December.

I've tried all sorts in the prem, I'd like to think i'm no newb when it comes to FM, but 08 has really got me struggling.

I went for a 5-3-2 (3-2-3-2 with wing backs) formation, with a slow tempo, and short passing amongst my back line and wing backs. This allowed them to ease the ball up to my midfielders who then had a more direct mentality.

The CB's only closed down around the 18 yard box, the wing backs slightly higher up. One midfielder had whole pitch, and a barrow back to the DM position, while the other two had farrows to the forwards and mixed closing down.

I tweaked it slightly game to game, for the first three games i watched full matches, but i'm down to highlights and got it sorted fairly well.

The main problem i've had is overlapping on the wings against the lone wing back. This is never always the case and can be countered by increasing the closing down of the two outside midfielders.

This is with Sunderland remember, and my only two prem quality CB's are Paul McShane and Ryan Donk, so far 5 games, 3 Wins, 1 Defeat and 1 Draw. Most importantly, 4 Clean sheets. I lost away to Wigan (heh - their in the bottom three).

I'm at work so cannot upload the tactic nor take any screenshots, i shall not upload it until I've finished the season as to be quite frank with this version of FM it could turn out to be a fluke still as the game is utterly inconsistent and i'd hate to get a kids hopes up only for him to come back all emo on me after he loses 5 games in a row.

Nice thread and some good ideas.

[Law_Man]

Thanks ScottehFTM, and well done on getting Sunderland back to the premiership.

I think in FM07 and FM08, time is the biggest factor. By this I mean, if you make it past your first season, your team has gelled, and you've probably had the chance at the end of your first season to bring in better players and then it's onwards and upwards. I can't emphasise this enough. I don't know (but I assume) that most of the people posting in this forum saying things are terrible and such and such a tactic doesn't work, are probably not giving their career long enough. I can understand this of course, as patience is a virtue. This problem is probably further compounded by the fact that they might have also chose one of the 'big teams' to manage and so in their own mind, and from the board's point of view, they need instant success.

You and (others) are more than welcome to post your tactics in this thread that have produced some sort of defensive consistency

[Rashidi]

Very interesting thread...i have to admit, I have been gravitating to more defensive tactics lately and most of my tactics have some slight variant or another.

When looking at playing defensively, I generally consider a few things.

<LI>Possession

Very often people assume that a defensive tactic is low on possession and high on counters, while this is true, it doesn't have to be the case most of the time. Lately I've made a 451 and a 4132 which are both defensive in orientation. The goal in both of them has been to maintain possession. I'll chuck a tactic if it gives me a win and only 40% possession.

To get more possession, I tend to have a variety of passing styles within a team, this allows me to hold the ball better in defense and in midfield, and allow me quick thrusts in attack.

The one thing I have been struggling with is getting players to do the one two pass and goal which I'm really after, that should ideally happen in the final third. While possession is a good thing, that's its drawback as teams seem to like passing the ball around in the opponents half allowing the AI to settle in defense.

<LI> Arrows

Without a doubt the most important part of the game, if you use the arrows well, it will tell your players WHERE to drop back and defend, and WHERE to go when you have the ball. What a lot of people forget is that player choices for these kind of roles are the difference between winning and losing

<LI>Player choices

Defensive-styled tactics are heavy in requirements for attributes and this will show when using a LL side. Qualities such as teamwork, determination and conditioning are vital general attributes for the whole team and concentration is crucial for defenders. A defensive tactic needs players to be continually alert to breaking up attacks and to be cognizant of attacking opportunities.

[ScottehFTM]

Cheers Law!

The season in the CCC was rather easy and quite enjoyable (always more fun when your stuffing teams as opposed to getting stuffed). I think theres very little point in giving up just because your not doing great, I usually don't stop until i get sacked.

I got the new PES lastnight, so didn't get a chance to fire up FM, however once i get a few more games done, and I'm sure its not just a fluke, then i'll upload it for you guys.

[Guest Lower19]

I are manager of QPR and the first season I won the Championship, the next year I stayed clear of relegation with the lowest margin at the premier! the second season I do a little better, but still I feel it dosent working good enough! Anyone who have a suggestion on how I should build a team and on how long it will take?? Should I play defensive minded tact etc..

[Denham]

Just want to say that I'm trying to find exactly what law_man is; probing football creating good chances whilst maintaining a solid defensive line.

It must be said that I've tried everything and nothing seems to work and for one main reason - I always seem to get broken down on the counter attack. Anyone got any solutions ?

[Giantplaything]

Good Thread this.

I agree that a more defensive tactic is the way to get consistent results. I'm in my first season as Blyth and doing better than expected because of the simple 4-4-2 im playing.

pos PLD W D L F A

2nd 13 8 4 1 23 10

<UL TYPE=SQUARE>

<LI>Individual instructions are mostly on mixed

(Only wingers and fast striker making runs)

<LI>Team instructions couple of notches left for mentality, CF, Tempo and width.

This is great for a solid defence and well worked goals.

[Law_Man]

Thanks for all the contributions lads

I'm currently in a Blyth game too (what is with this team as the LLM team of choice!? For me it was all about having Boro as a parent club and not at all to do with the fact I like the name, the badge and the history....honest...I'm all man). I'm 17 games in and I've only conceeded 8 goals (the lowest in the league) but this is mainly due to all the players I've loaned from Boro, and the fact that the opposition is rubbish and using other people's tactics.

For me, this season is just about playing it as quickly as possible because with all the Boro players it would be impossible to not get promoted, and then next season in the Blue Square Premier, have a proper crack at creating a defensively sound, simple, 4-4-2.

What I'm hoping we can all achieve from this thread is that if some or all of us manage to have any success in keeping clean sheets and creating a smaller number of quality chances, we can spot certain 'common themes' which appear in all of our tactics. This way it might even be possible to make some absolute statements and then test them out such as: "setting X slider to Y notches will help to concede less goals as it has Z effect".

Obviously the views of the so-called tactical gurus might be helpful here!

KUTW lads

[Giantplaything]

Up the Spartans!!

Boro as a parent club- nice work.

This is the second version of FM that I've had a stab with Blyth. Theres noone in the prem with a green 1st kit and I thought I'd change that.)

Previously managed to get Newcastle as parent club but this time the board said no to the idea.

About the sliders idea I'm not so sure we will be able to set any absolutes because of other factors such as different players, staff, half-time team talks etc. but its worth a try.

[Law_Man]

Whilst I agree to some extent, I also disagree with that statement (and indeed it's often made in different ways on these forums).

You see in my mind, I think it's possible to make absolute statements but with some caveats. For example: "assuming you have a decent back four relative to your league....then X will results in less goals conceded on the break".

The point being that obviously everyone will have different players, training, team talks etc but you can make absolute statements as long as certain assumptions are made explicit i.e. "as long as you have quick DCs then..." or "as long as you play a deep defensive line then...." etc.

Do you see what I mean?

And yes UP THE SPARTANS!! I'm about to play Northampton at home in the 2nd round of the FA Cup after holding them to a draw at their place to gain a replay!!

[Giantplaything]

I do see what you mean but what your saying now is slightly different to earlier

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> setting X slider to Y notches will help to concede less goals as it has Z effect </div></BLOCKQUOTE> is the same but with added stipulations such as having a fast defensive line.

My view is that formations in general are being a little overcomplicated and to troubleshoot, for example, a "leaky" defence would take ages not only to find the exact problem but also to discover a workable solution.

Do you see what I'm getting at?

I'm sure all readers of this or indeed any tactical thread want to see are statements like "turning forward runs off for full backs with limit goals from crosses + through balls."(this is so true BTW)

P.s sorry for the essay

[Giantplaything]

sorry for the double posting but i forgot to add the question:

Are we looking for the rules for certain situations or a general practice of strategy for conceading less?

[memph1sto]

my thread is messy and all over the place for which i apologise but anyone wanting a tactic which does all of this please have a go with it.

it works for me, i concede very few goals and score quite a few, my defence is very tight and not at all leaky.

please feedbback, my theories etc are in the thread itself.

[Law_Man]

Not any essay at all I think I'm often guilty of essay writing myself!

Yes that's what I'm saying, with the added stipulations. But other, more absolute statements like the one you just gave are also possible.

I completely agree with you that troubleshooting now with how complicated the game has got is very difficult, and this thread was not intended for such individual trouble shooting.

Thanks for contributing and hope to hear more from you mate.

[Giantplaything]

It always looks more than it is when writing in the little message box.

What I'm wondering is if we go down the road of adding requirements to our tactical theories then will we end up just stating what players makes a tactic work better rather than some general dos and don'ts or theories. (Both of which are good topics for discussion)

I'm just firing ideas down so I'm sorry if I sound like I'm picking at your point here.

[Law_Man]

No worries, all constructive comments welcome

"Adding requirements" is not at all designed to be "stating what players make a tactic work better". Moreover, such assumptions/requirements are designed to compliment and place in context general/absolute statements. I think perhaps the best way to illustrate what I mean is by quoting a legendary thread by wwfan.

Just above what follows wwfan sets out general frameworks and theories. He then sets them in context:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Level Assumptions

The previous section of this post provides a set of simple rules for player positioning and instructions. However, in order to continue it is important to work from a set of pre-defined assumptions before designing and testing tactics at all levels. Although some may disagree with my assumptions as to what should work at certain levels, I believe them to be logical and concurrent with the generalities of how real life football works.

LLM Assumptions

This definition is for poorer quality teams in L2, plus all the Conference National and the Regional Conferences. For this level I believe tactics should be long/very direct in terms of passing style. Such a style will minimise the chance of losing the ball in build up play and will allow the team to constantly pepper the opposition area, hopefully forcing the defence into making mistakes. A quick/tall striker partnership would be ideal, as one player will win balls in the air while the other runs onto missed interceptions/headers from the defenders.

In terms of defence, keeping the defenders between the ball and the goal is more important than committing them to tackles. Thus, closing down is generally low (with the exception of the MCd/DMC, as detailed above) as it forces the attacking team to try and either score from distance or get past the last line of defence via quality through balls or breaking tackles. The emphasis is on the skill of the attackers to create chances rather than the ability of the defenders to efficiently read the game.

Mid-Quality Team Assumptions

This definition is for higher quality teams in L2 through to the poorer Premiership teams. At this level passing should be direct. In recommending this I am assuming the long ball game to be easily dealt with by higher quality defenders as their better positioning attributes will allow them to comfortably mop up aimless punts into the box. The direct balls will ensure the team will not over complicate passing moves and lose possession before the killer ball is played. Direct passing gets the ball quickly forward to the strikers who can then use the midfield for support. Strength and speed up front will be important to get the best from this tactic type as the forwards will be able to hold up the ball and let the team catch up with play or run at a retreating defence.

Defence is more down to the individual user at this level. Both closing down and sitting back defence options could work. My ideal would be to close down to mixed at home, which forces the attacking team to make quick passing decisions when trying to break down the defence as they are soon put under pressure if they hold on to the ball. The higher positioning and decision making stats at this level (speed, acceleration and bravery also being important) make this possible and it allows for your team to regain possession quickly and higher up the pitch than the LLM system. This works in conjunction with passing type, with the long ball being less useful in a tactic that is trying to win the ball high up the pitch. When playing away it would be better to close down slightly less as you will force the attack to break you down to make chances. Keeping men behind the ball will be useful as the home team is likely to have a fair amount of possession so massing the defence is a better option than trying to win the ball early.

High-Quality Team Assumptions

The definition for high quality teams is those that should be challenging for the European qualification slots in the Premiership. For this level passing should be short or mixed. My own preference is for most of the team to be set at the first notch of mixed, with the exception of the front two who are two notches less. This type of system is possession-centric (can be close to 70% against poor teams) but still offers players opportunities to pick longer balls when they are on. Obviously, passing, creativity and decision making are the most important attributes here as they will enable the player to hit the right ball at the right time more often then not. If a through ball is not on, the player will lay off an easy pass to keep possession and allow others to look for the killer ball. My preference for success with this tactic is having attacking players with pace, acceleration and good off the ball skills. One tall centre forward is also preferable, but not a must.

At home the defence should close down heavily. This is a direct contradiction of previous thinking but has method in its madness. The most frustrating issue for FM addicts seems to be the second season slump. This happens when a team has enjoyed considerable success in its first season, often overachieving, and as a result gains a higher reputation. The easiest way to gauge your reputation level is the pre-match odds screen. If you are nearly always the bookies’ favourite, and have ridiculously short odds against poorer sides, then you have a good reputation. The direct result of this is you will begin coming up against the dreaded 3-3-2-1-1 defensive system that nearly all high-level managers seem to employ against better sides. Note, teams may not start with that formation but will often switch when a goal is scored or due to other in-game factors. This system has been the bane of many a tactician’s life and is the key reason for the second season slump. So, how does high closing down counter it?

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

[Giantplaything]

Hello me again.

Just to find out what hymn sheet everyones singing off I wanted to ask what formations are people using and also what has been getting results? Theres no point talking about player setups if we're on about different things.

[towerofpower]

Good topic and always good to read Rahshidi post! I also am one of those, who rather win 1-0 and limit opposition opportunities rather than winning 1-0.

Let me first say the biggest mistake/s I made when I first started make defensive tactic, and perhaps someone who has/is doing same mistakes can learn from it: if you have too many people only for attack and other half of the people just to defend it won't work and it's awful balance... I tried making stupid formations with many DMF, yet I was using AMR/AML who barely participate defence. This was awful, it simply overloaded defensive midfielders, invited so much pressure and oppostion as playing triangles around my defence. This also tires down those who defends, a lot.

Whole team excluding strikers really has to participate and keep balance if you want to be succesfull defensively in my opinion. I feel 4-5-1 for instance is good for this and leaves some space for imagination as well. Even if it would work otherwise, you'll find in inbalanced tactics that your most hard working players are at like 55%-60% fitness levels. That alone told me it can't go like this, those players can't keep it up like that.

Passing of course is important. For example tweak I made tweak for my fullbacks, changing their passing from direct to short. I don't know, 25 passes completed out of 40 attempts just is pretty poor and gives possesion away, thus giving more chance for opposition to score. Although with completed direct passes they can be much more dangerous and exploiting empty space.

I myself am unsure about tight marking and haven't formed good opinion about it...it seems quick strikers can exploit it easier, I'm not too good reading the game like that so can't form the opinion. Just would like to get some opinions from people when it's absolutely best to tight mark, and when not?

Also, about arrows --- if I'd start using AML/AMR again, and put barrows to ML/MR positions, would they behave like side midfielders on defence instead of attacking mid? Because with AMR/AML I felt it simply felt iit put so much pressure on central midfield department and increased their workload a lot.

[towerofpower]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I also am one of those, who rather win 1-0 and limit opposition opportunities rather than winning 1-0. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Errr, rather than winning 4-3*

[Law_Man]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by towerofpower:

Also, about arrows --- if I'd start using AML/AMR again, and put barrows to ML/MR positions, would they behave like side midfielders on defence instead of attacking mid? Because with AMR/AML I felt it simply felt iit put so much pressure on central midfield department and increased their workload a lot. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hi tower of power - they'd "behave" however you set them too in terms of mentality, closing down, individual instructions etc, regardless of any arrows. What a back arrow from AMR/AML to MR/ML would do is that when you lost possession, they would drop back from AMR/AML to MR/ML.

[Giantplaything]

Been testing an idea and I thought I should share my findings so far.

Its the winter leg of the season and pitches are either frosty or its cold. Long balls were becoming more apparent against me so I cut down the amount of players making forward runs to stop counter attack and coupled with a slower tempo build-up I seem to be winning even more than at the start of the season and still low amount of goals against.

This could be either due to my formation changes being generally more effective or I've just found out how to play in the snow.

Wouldn't mind some feedback from other people on this.

[Law_Man]

Like a phoenix rising from the ashes, the 8.02 patch arrives and this thread gets a bump

Hopefully we can between us all design a defensively sound tactic that will score goals, and that doesn't haven't to be overly micro-managed.

[Ando THFC]

Pre patch I'd won La Liga 7 years in a row. Now I'm leaking goals like Derby Counnty. Any help on tightening up would be much appreciated.

[Buxton]

A low closing down coupled with tight marking is doing the trick for me, only conceeded one goal in open play in 10 matches.

[Ando THFC]

By low closing down I assume you mean deep - set to Own Area or so?

[Law_Man]

It's early days for me yet but from what I've seen so far on 8.02, I'd agree completely with Buxton, it seems possible to tight mark players out of the game, and hold defensive positions by reducing closing down.

[Buxton]

Tight Marking for the back four only.

[Law_Man]

I take it your top of the league....? Would you mind emailing me your tactic so I can have a look? My email isn't the one in my profile but I've sent you an email so you've got my proper email. You could also upload it in hear if you don't want the hassle of your own thread. Cheers! And well done on the clean sheets!

[Buxton]

I think I'm joint top with Arsenal. Although could be top now I've just won 3-0 at Stamford Bridge

I'll email you it.

[Law_Man]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Buxton:

I think I'm joint top with Arsenal. Although could be top now I've just won 3-0 at Stamford Bridge

I'll email you it. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Good work! Nice to see someone riding high

[cmgenesis]

Defensive Tactic

Simply keeping a clean sheet is near on impossible these days but there is a way. Not only that but there is way without sacrificing your attacking flair or having the boredom and monotony of a certain west london club.

You can still play 442 but one of the midfielders is more defensive in mentality and has the skills for the job as well (anticipation, tackling, strength, distribution being the most important)

Your team should close down more.

Forward runs can be limited to wingers and forwards.

Defence can play out mixed passing, as poor passing in defenders under pressure will lead to short balls going astray.

Ensuring that the defenders you buy/have have high concentration and focus, otherwise mistakes will be made too often...especially defending leads.

Personally i fund that tempo, width and formations have nothing to do with keeping a clean sheet....you look at arsenal and man u and see that they attack ferociously but defend just as well...its just a case of forming a team that can work like this