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Ajax System for FM2007 – AFC Ajax – 1990s

Marz

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PaleThinBoy

PaleThinBoy

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Alright. Been experimenting for the last couple of days with various formations. This is the best I'vecome up with so far by miles. Signed Van Der Vaart for the number 10 position, he plays well in this role. I'm playing Vertonghen in number 4 position and have him set to playmaker, but ideally I want someone with better tackling, passing and creativity and have my eye on Makoun who I will retrain to play as a DC/DM. I have found that this 3 at the back set up works best because it nulifies the 4-4-2 best. But feel free to test and give me feedback...Ta.

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PaleThinBoy

PaleThinBoy

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I'm trying to tweak the tactic to possibly get the two midfielders to track back into the fullback positions, possibly by man manmarking the opposition wingers. This tactic has me sitting three points behind PSV after about ten games...I've been tweaking the positions on the download tactic and stress this is only a test for people interested in this discussion to use and tweak themselves. It is by no means the finished tactic!!!!!

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PaleThinBoy

PaleThinBoy

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I reckon that we need to develop a system which doesn't haveto be changedand can go out and beat anything the match engine throws at it. For sure the system works best against 4.3.3 butI dont want to have to altermy tactics to cope withthe opposition...In europe fair enough, but I am Ajax, it should be possible to build a tactic that beats every one else in Holland that doesnt' need to be adjusted to face 442 or 433... I have a better updated version if anyone is interested...I hope Marz getsback on this one's case, I'm looking forward to his houghts...

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Fieldsy

Fieldsy

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Is there any news on this yet? Or at least is there any tactic that will resemble the great flowing football the dutch or ajax played? I have tried to recreate a set of tactics that would do this but have had no luck so far.

Even if there is a tactic out there that could be used as a template!! Oh I am using 8.0.2

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Marz

Marz

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Originally posted by Answ3r:

Marz my man, you forgot about us?

Sorry have been busy with work/study an life.

Originally posted by The Pain:

I think in this system the the two widest center backs should be dealing with the opponents wingers.

Like this against 433.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">DMC

LCB CB RCB

Like this against 442

LCB CB CB RCB

Hope that helps. icon_smile.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Against a 433, it better to use flat four, so there is a spare defender acting as sweeper. But again systems depends on your players and the oppositions.

Against 442 it should be 3 at the at the back with a DMC, the midfield is more important when defending in this case. Maybe only mixed forward runs for the MC’s.

Originally posted by PaleThinBoy:

I reckon that we need to develop a system which doesn't haveto be changedand can go out and beat anything the match engine throws at it. For sure the system works best against 4.3.3 butI dont want to have to altermy tactics to cope withthe opposition...In europe fair enough, but I am Ajax, it should be possible to build a tactic that beats every one else in Holland that doesnt' need to be adjusted to face 442 or 433...

Even Van Gaal with Rijkaard and Blind had to change to 433 against certain opposition (when faced with 3 strikers).

You can play 343 when you think you can control possession (not just ability counts, fitness, moral, motivation etc). I also played it against Milan 4-1-2-1-2 in FM07, due to the tactical advantage it gives.

Originally posted by PaleThinBoy:

think marz has given up...

NEVER!!! icon_smile.gif

I’m going to start playing FM7 again from today, and continue working on my mod for FM8. My plan is that I can finish the mod for FM8, while also completing the 2nd or 3rd season of FM7 and have the tactics finished for release (better very late then never).

In the mod I have to edit/create around 24 clubs. Each club takes around 4 hours; so maybe by mid May.

I’m going to look for a site for the FM7 mod, for people who want to give that a go/are bored with the current game.

The whole rewrite of the original Ajax System, I’ll leave for FM8.

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WJ

WJ

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I've read the book "Coaching philosophies of Louis Van Gaal and the Ajax coaches" and it seems very difficult to implement in FM.

But still I'm looking forward to your rewrite Marz.

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PaleThinBoy

PaleThinBoy

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Will someone do me a favour and help test this formation...its looking good. doing well...replica of Ajax formation, playmaker is set to the MC which gas barrow back into defence. I have trained Gojko Kacar into a DC DM AM C, he runs the show. He is me playmaker.

orangefussballfq6.th.png

Here is a link to download:

http://www.turboupload.com/download/4uRfusL3Lbz8/Orange...all(AjaxAug2009).tac

Let me know how you get on. Good Luck

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PaleThinBoy

PaleThinBoy

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The wingbacks need to be wingers.

Thanks, very insightful...

Yeah, I understand what you are saying although if you download the tactic you'll realise that the majority of time they play as wingers and only resume this position when defending. They are on pretty gung ho settings and hog the touchline much furthur up the field.

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Marz

Marz

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Originally posted by PaleThinBoy:

Right,moved up the WB's to MR and ML left with forward runs to AM L and R. Working well last 3 games:

1-0 PSV homw

1-1 Arsenal away

2-1 Feyenoord

So looking good.

Even with those changes the tactic your posting about has nothing to do with the Ajax System. Maybe make another thread for the 3-5-2; this thread is for people/followers of 3-4-3/4-3-3 which is based on the Ajax System.

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PaleThinBoy

PaleThinBoy

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Hmmm, I look forward to viewing your final tactic...keep your toys in the pram though eh. All I was doing was trying to contribute to your thread...Perhaps one day I will be as good as you. I believe that my system does infact replicate the system talked about in the Van Gaal document and after watching videos of the 1990's side I'm quite happy. Just because it doesnt line up how you like it, doesn't mean that during a match it doesnt replicate a 3-4-3/4-3-3 depending on whether or not I have the ball.

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WJ

WJ

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Who do you use in the number 4 role Marz?

I started different games with ajax, trying and testing, using the book "Coaching philosophies..." But the main problem seems to be the search for that superb player for the number 4 role.

We are looking for a defender that can play as a DMC with high ratings for:

passing, decisions,anticipation, creativity, stamina, tackling, positioning, marking, ...

basically a player that can do everything. The only player that I could think of was Pirlo and retrain him in a dc role or something, but you can't buy him at Ajax ofcourse.

Player selection is my biggest problem overall I guess, Ajax just doesn't have the players for the system at the moment.

Do you search for youth players too Marz? What attributes do you look for and at what level do they have to be?

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Marz

Marz

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QUOTE]Originally posted by PaleThinBoy:

Hmmm, I look forward to viewing your final tactic...keep your toys in the pram though eh. All I was doing was trying to contribute to your thread...Perhaps one day I will be as good as you. I believe that my system does infact replicate the system talked about in the Van Gaal document and after watching videos of the 1990's side I'm quite happy. Just because it doesnt line up how you like it, doesn't mean that during a match it doesnt replicate a 3-4-3/4-3-3 depending on whether or not I have the ball.

I’m sorry but I always try to keep my Ajax System threads on topic. I don’t think my reply was to aggressive, just pointing out a few facts. I don’t mind anyone contributing towards this thread, as long as its on topic. Its clear that your formation is based on a 5-3-2/3-5-2. You might have tweaked it that at times it takes the shape of the Ajax System. But when defending it will still mainly be a 5-3-2/3-5-2. The Wingers need to be at either AM or wide F, as they press from there.

Thank you for your praise and everyone else’s faith in me. I hope to prove myself again with a guide in either FM7 or FM8.

Originally posted by WJ:

Who do you use in the number 4 role Marz?

Player selection is my biggest problem overall I guess, Ajax just doesn't have the players for the system at the moment.

Do you search for youth players too Marz? What attributes do you look for and at what level do they have to be?

I’m currently playing FM7 while working on my mod for FM8. So I have Maduro, and Vertonghen. In my test game for FM8 I used Heitinga; you could try van der Wiel but both are not natural DMC's.

I search for youth players don’t think any of my scouts look for players over 19; apart from major competitions.

Yes in FM8 it will be hard at the start.

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Answ3r

Answ3r

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In 08 I signed Patricio Araujo from Chivas (I think)for arond 2.7m 21 y/o Mexican SW/DC/DMC he has the best abilitys for the N0. 4 position I have come across in FM08. Try look at Him WJ

Glad to see you back Marz

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WJ

WJ

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Thanks Answ3r, I will look for him. I use Vertonghen (fellow countryman of mine) at the moment, but he isn't good enough right now (maybe in the future)

Indeed it is difficult Marz, when you read the book, the demands for an Ajax player are extremly high, too high for FM I guess.

I was thinking about making my -19 team into a team with age categorie 14-17 and my B-team into a 18-21 team, but it's difficult to determine who is good enough to make it and who isn't.

The general passing level in the team is really bad. Making this work will take more than 1 season I guess. icon_smile.gif

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Answ3r

Answ3r

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In my u19's I have 2 teams u16 & u18 after 18 y/o an Ajax player should be ready for Jong Ajax (Ajax 2)Then you can sort of see who progresses quicker than others.

Vertonghen is a good player but if you really want to recreate the 90's Ajax he wont be good enough. Araujo is Good for 3 & 4 there is also another Mexican who plays DLC AMLC Esparza or something.. He's a good buy at around 3.7m for the 5, 8 or 11 positions. If you could get Mendes Da Silva from AZ he looks good for the 4 spot...

Anyway players are for the other board... The 4 spot is so hard to fill. Good luck man. It's good to talk to other Ajax fans. Post your progress, I'll be interested to read it..

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WJ

WJ

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I'm at school at the moment, I will upload a picture of my formation when I get home.

I bought Araujo, but he has to learn some more before he gets in the squad.

For the number 4 I bought Galasek, he's 34 but seems to be good enough for this one season.

Tactic wise, I played 4 games so far:

3-2 against Dinamo Bucharest for the CL

1-3 against Feyenoord away

3-2 loss against Vitesse

1-3 win in the return in Bucharest for the CL

Huntelaar didn't play in any of those games because of injury, but the scoring is going pretty good. Edgar Manucharyan has 6 goals in 4 matches so...

The defence on the other hand seems to be a problem. Now I don't know if it has anything to do with my number 1 Stekelenburg being out for 9 months. I put Gentenaar in goal and he has made 2 crucial errors against Vitesse, goals which cost me 3 points.

But the main problem seems to be playing against 2 strikers, which all teams so far have done against me. Now Van Gaal suggests 2 solutions in an article I read:

1) Change from a 4-3-3 to a 3-4-3, so pull back the number 6 or 8 in the central defensive position, push up the 2 and 5 in a midfield role and pull back number 10 to fill the number 6 or 8 position.

2) Make the defence of the 4-3-3 more compact by squeezing the 2 and 5 to the middle.

I chose the second option (side arrows to the centre), because I wanted my players to keep the same 4-3-3 formation. Still a problem arises with my 2 and 5 unable to decide if they should go to the centre or pick up the opponents winger. Don't know how to solve it, maybe going man marking to wingers?

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Marz

Marz

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Originally posted by WJ:

http://img138.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ajaxet4.jpg

damn, never posted a pic on here before, I will just paste the link.

I tried similar positioning with the AMC (No 10) before. But the problem is, that sometimes the MC's need to defend down the wing (or get dragged out of position as they need to close down a lot). This then means that the No 10 needs to come back into central midfield. This might be one of your problems.

Also which version of FM do you play FM7 or 08?

As for u19_objective_creates_exercise.pdf, someone has posted that before. It's basically a defensive 4-3-3.

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WJ

WJ

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Ow yeah about the pdf, I got it from this forum some time ago, I just remembered yesterday that there was a part about defending against 2 strikers, that's why I read it again and tried to implement the ideas in the 90's system.

I thought maybe Van Gaal used those ideas back then too.

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Marz

Marz

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You also need to look at how the opponent supports those 2 strikers. If its a standard flat 442 there are two ways:-

Backs to take care of the strikers, with the No 3 as spare man (zonal marking not tight).

The opponents wide midfielders up against the MC's.

DMC pushed more into midfield (I'm trying to work on that myself at the moment) against one of the opponents MC's. While your AMC moves back down to MC when not in possession.

The other option (I use this a lot as its less risky and more flexible to the various formations and player types) is still lining up the defence as:-

<pre class="ip-ubbcode-code-pre">

DMC

|

|

DL--> DC <--DR

</pre>

But tweaking the tactics so that the immediate threat is confronted by either DL (if an attacker has the ball in that area) or DMC (if an attacker has the ball in that area) or DR (if an attacker has the ball in that area). This requires the DMC to play more defensively as a whole as he has to cover more in response to the situation.

The first option is attacking while the second is what I would consider normal. There is no defensive way, as choosing to playing the Ajax System for part of a match means you presume you will dominate possession or expect possession to be fairly even. If a more defensive strategy is required, a flat 4 with a DMC in front and 2 MC’s and front 3 is the system.

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Answ3r

Answ3r

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What i do to combat 2 strikers is play a flat 4 at the back with my no. 8 as a dmc because i always have my no.8 the more defensive minded and 6 attacking (as Van Gaal did with Davids and Seedorf) and my 10 plays more as an MC then pull my wingers from F/R/L to AMC R/L

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WJ

WJ

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I've given up trying to create it myself.

I start the game superb, going up 0-2 or 2-0 within 15 minutes, then everything usually goes down the drain, no one does what he is supposed to do and the opposition pulls back 2 goals before half time and even wins in the end.

Just lost 5-3 against CSKA after going up 0-2 in the first 20 minutes.

Exact same thing happened against NAC Breda, where I lost 3-4 at home after going up 2-0.

It seems that I am unable to do it myself, I'll wait for Marz new readme.

As you can see I still have the defensive problems, usually because my 2 or 5 runs around like a headless chicken.

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Answ3r

Answ3r

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Dude don't give up... Try this.

On your 2 and 5 instructions put them Zonal Marking with inward arrows, and set the defensive mentality to like 2 or 3 clicks from the end...

your 3 on the furthest back mentality with no arrows and your dmc with the backward arrow, his mentality quite defensive too..

I use this most of the time and my 4 (Araujo) gets so much space to play the game. Defensively its very strong. 3 clean sheets in 4 games. Also make one of your MC's more defensive than the other..

I also have a Backward arrow on my AMC and both wingers..

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Answ3r

Answ3r

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Scotsman, It's basically a thread designed for people who want to play the Ajax way of the 90's in FM07 (Originally) but some of us are transfering it through to 08 (Marz too we hope icon_razz.gif)

A 3-4-3/4-3-3 Combination, Look for the link to the Louis van Gaal book. That explains the theories behind this thread

Hope that helps...

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WJ

WJ

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Originally posted by Answ3r:

Dude don't give up... Try this.

On your 2 and 5 instructions put them Zonal Marking with inward arrows, and set the defensive mentality to like 2 or 3 clicks from the end...

your 3 on the furthest back mentality with no arrows and your dmc with the backward arrow, his mentality quite defensive too..

I use this most of the time and my 4 (Araujo) gets so much space to play the game. Defensively its very strong. 3 clean sheets in 4 games. Also make one of your MC's more defensive than the other..

I also have a Backward arrow on my AMC and both wingers..

Yeah sorry got a bit frustrated there. icon_wink.gif

You put your wingers in the AML/AMR position or do you put them in the FL/FR position?

My next match is against Inter away. icon_redface.gif Too bad I can't play untill the weekend.

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Marz

Marz

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Sorry my chipset fan on the southbridge (motherboard) has died been waiting for replacement since 19th Friday. Might get it on Thursday or Friday; don’t want to melt my motherboard so I cant do nothing till I get the part. But from what I have seen there are enough people willing to help people who are struggling. I'll hope to contribute more by next week.

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Answ3r

Answ3r

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WJ.. Depends on who im playing, but usually FL/R with backward arrows...

With the defensive set up I posted before against most teams your #4 has sooo much space so If he's a good enough player make him playmaker... He'll spray the ball round and start attacks at will!!

My team is this: (The Numbers are for the Positions on the field)

1. Stekelenberg

2. Heitinga

3. Samba

4. Araujo

5. Vermaelen

6. Renato Augusto

7. Kalouda/Kennedy

8. Esparza

9. Huntelaar

10. Defour

11. Mitea/Suarez

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Marz

Marz

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Originally posted by Coleman:

Marz,

Have you switched over to FM 2008?

Sorry couldn’t work on my mod due to time spend abroad lately and motherboard issue. And when I did have time I played FM7, to get back into things.

I’m actually thinking about maybe skipping FM8 altogether (but I did buy FM8).

If I do I will still be able to watch matches; so might ask people to send me either their games or just matches. This would be a solution to my input regarding FM8; but like I said still up in the air.

But willing to look at a few matches at a time; for FM8. E-mail in my public profile, also tell me that you send some, else it will just be deleted.

Thinking about buying a new computer that will enable me to play all leagues etc. But I’m waiting for new socket/CPU's to come out late this year/early next. That would then work with FM9; as the latest patch should come out around Q1 of 2009.

Originally posted by WJ:

I've given up trying to create it myself.

I start the game superb, going up 0-2 or 2-0 within 15 minutes, then everything usually goes down the drain, no one does what he is supposed to do and the opposition pulls back 2 goals before half time and even wins in the end.

Just lost 5-3 against CSKA after going up 0-2 in the first 20 minutes.

Exact same thing happened against NAC Breda, where I lost 3-4 at home after going up 2-0.

It seems that I am unable to do it myself, I'll wait for Marz new readme.

As you can see I still have the defensive problems, usually because my 2 or 5 runs around like a headless chicken.

System and a small read-me might be out soon, but it will be for FM7. As for a rewrite of the Ajax System guide, might not be till few month after the last patch of FM9.

Send me 5 matches (first team only please), they all need to be in a row. Best would be to also have some CL games in that period.

Originally posted by Answ3r:

On your 2 and 5 instructions put them Zonal Marking with inward arrows, and set the defensive mentality to like 2 or 3 clicks from the end...

Defensive mentality will also affect things like:-

Passing

Time they spend in position

How they move to support build-up.

Also I haven’t played much FM8, I would recommend lowest normal mentality. More complicated way would be to play with that normal mentality and then switch to defensive mentality and play on the counter when your 2 goals up.

Originally posted by Answ3r:

your 3 on the furthest back mentality with no arrows and your dmc with the backward arrow, his mentality quite defensive too..

Same as above will result in more defensive actions.

Originally posted by Answ3r:

I use this most of the time and my 4 (Araujo) gets so much space to play the game. Defensively its very strong. 3 clean sheets in 4 games. Also make one of your MC's more defensive than the other..

Very nice way to compliment the more defensive mentalities. Please also post your creative freedom settings.

I once tried similar, but my players still gave the ball away to much. I tried high 14+ CF settings to counter their defensive mentalities when we had possession. But still didn't like it; down to your personal style.

I'm currently trying this:-

<pre class="ip-ubbcode-code-pre">

DMC

DL--> DC <--DR

</pre>

Might try a very high defensive mentality for the Backs, as the DMC seems to be more effective in build up then with a backwards arrow.

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Marz

Marz

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DMC to also have a forward arrow to MC. My MC's have very high CF, as this seems to make players play wider (central ones anyway). Haven’t had a chance to use these tweaks against top teams. But from a positional point of view it has solved several problems. I'am going to make my version of the Ajax System available for download from tomorrow. icon_smile.gif

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