AI Experiment - what would happen if?

[earmack]

The game definitely knows what is needed in terms of goal difference and whats going on in games at the same time and how that changes things, which is impressive.

I'm more impressed that the Bandits are on the charge (took their time though) and splashing the money around. Regardless of whether they win or not this will be their best ever season and they'll be in the champions league group with a better seeding.

Its interesting that the poor manager seems to have almost no negative effect on the team.

[earmack]

Eeep, forgot to say this is brilliant thread Kipfizh and it has definitely left the realms of experimentation and moved on to being a great story(at least as far as everyone reading is concerned). How many seasons do you think you'll do? I think leaving the Bandits at the top would be for the best to be honest because a lot of the magic will be gone when they've established themselves as a world class team.

[FlownCanary]

AAAAAHHHHH! You cannot! CANNOT do this to us! I need update or insomnia will surely set in! I've already lost all my fingernails, guess I'll have to start on my toenails, heh! NEED update!

BTW, League Cup Triumph

COME ON YOU BANDITS!

[Braumiller]

Have been a big fan of this thread for many, many months, but this is stringing in out just for the sake of stringing it out.

Don't over do it

[Guest Darkireland]

Originally posted by Braumiller:

Have been a big fan of this thread for many, many months, but this is stringing in out just for the sake of stringing it out.

Don't over do it

Have to agree with this

[chopper99]

Originally posted by Braumiller:

Have been a big fan of this thread for many, many months, but this is stringing in out just for the sake of stringing it out.

Don't over do it

I think you'll find yourself in a minority with this opinion. The full updates don't just write themselves you know, they take a while to do.

The fact this threads still so popular is mostly down to the way this stories been told.

[kipfizh]

Originally posted by earmack:

Its interesting that the poor manager seems to have almost no negative effect on the team.

Actually, this isn't true, as Stuart Davies' CA is misleading. His transfer market is atrocious, but he has some very good scouts now. His tactical and motivation skills are superb, and since he arrived the same players raised their game dramatically.

[kipfizh]

Originally posted by Braumiller:

Have been a big fan of this thread for many, many months, but this is stringing in out just for the sake of stringing it out.

Don't over do it

I've made this clear before, I'm not stringing it out for the sake of it.

These reports take an enormous time to compile, which is why they are generally quite a long time apart. I have a demanding full time job, not to mention responsibilities at home.

The first section I write after the squad review, is the season review. I post parts of it for you, while I spend time compiling the rest of the report, purely so that there isn't a fortnight between my posts.

As soon as I finish the final word on the final section, I post the full report. I cannot post it any earlier. The only reason I haven't posted it yet is because I haven't finished it - I would estimate that each report takes about 15 hours of writing time.

The only alternative to this approach is to post absolutely nothing until I've finished the entire thing - which would you prefer?

[Guest arrogantio]

Originally posted by kipfizh:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by earmack:

Its interesting that the poor manager seems to have almost no negative effect on the team.

Actually, this isn't true, as Stuart Davies' CA is misleading. His transfer market is atrocious, but he has some very good scouts now. His tactical and motivation skills are superb, and since he arrived the same players raised their game dramatically. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

?????

[kipfizh]

Originally posted by arrogantio:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by kipfizh:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by earmack:

Its interesting that the poor manager seems to have almost no negative effect on the team.

Actually, this isn't true, as Stuart Davies' CA is misleading. His transfer market is atrocious, but he has some very good scouts now. His tactical and motivation skills are superb, and since he arrived the same players raised their game dramatically. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

????? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

<STRIKE>Tactical</STRIKE>, Man Management

Good spot!

[dryden76]

Originally posted by kipfizh:

Crikey, you lot are expecting great things from the Bandits these days, not one person has celebrated the League Cup triumph!

woot!!!!!!! we won the league cup again!!!!! wow!!!!! and scored a fourth!!!! ????? please tell us it is true, come on bandits!!!!!!!

[achilles elbow]

Originally posted by kipfizh:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Braumiller:

Have been a big fan of this thread for many, many months, but this is stringing in out just for the sake of stringing it out.

Don't over do it

I've made this clear before, I'm not stringing it out for the sake of it.

These reports take an enormous time to compile, which is why they are generally quite a long time apart. I have a demanding full time job, not to mention responsibilities at home.

The first section I write after the squad review, is the season review. I post parts of it for you, while I spend time compiling the rest of the report, purely so that there isn't a fortnight between my posts.

As soon as I finish the final word on the final section, I post the full report. I cannot post it any earlier. The only reason I haven't posted it yet is because I haven't finished it - I would estimate that each report takes about 15 hours of writing time.

The only alternative to this approach is to post absolutely nothing until I've finished the entire thing - which would you prefer? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm happy with the way you're doing it, and it's plainly obvious how many hours you put into this.

Don't let the odd negative comment get to you Kip... KUTAW - keep up the awesome work!

[Braumiller]

I've made this clear before, I'm not stringing it out for the sake of it.

These reports take an enormous time to compile, which is why they are generally quite a long time apart. I have a demanding full time job, not to mention responsibilities at home.

The first section I write after the squad review, is the season review. I post parts of it for you, while I spend time compiling the rest of the report, purely so that there isn't a fortnight between my posts.

As soon as I finish the final word on the final section, I post the full report. I cannot post it any earlier. The only reason I haven't posted it yet is because I haven't finished it - I would estimate that each report takes about 15 hours of writing time.

The only alternative to this approach is to post absolutely nothing until I've finished the entire thing - which would you prefer?

I very much enjoy the reports, and appreciate the time taken to deliver them.

However, you are saying that a natural breaking point between report parts is minutes to go in the final game of the season?

That is the part I am commenting on. It is as clear a case of creating a cliffhanger as there is. Would I prefer the whole report together? Personally, yes. I would also presume that would put me in the minority, but you asked for my opinion. At the least I would prefer the sections to feel complete (again, purely my opinion, which I do not suggest is wholly correct)

You have (rightfully so) received a lot of positive comments for this great experiment. This is a solitary negative constructive comment, which I personally find very helpful in my line of work.

The last thing I want to do here is create a flame war and pollute the thread, so I will stop in case some fool decides to pick on this as though it is an attack (which it is not).

[kipfizh]

Originally posted by Braumiller:

I very much enjoy the reports, and appreciate the time taken to deliver them.

However, you are saying that a natural breaking point between report parts is minutes to go in the final game of the season?

That is the part I am commenting on. It is as clear a case of creating a cliffhanger as there is. Would I prefer the whole report together? Personally, yes. I would also presume that would put me in the minority, but you asked for my opinion. At the least I would prefer the sections to feel complete (again, purely my opinion, which I do not suggest is wholly correct)

You have (rightfully so) received a lot of positive comments for this great experiment. This is a solitary negative constructive comment, which I personally find very helpful in my line of work.

The last thing I want to do here is create a flame war and pollute the thread, so I will stop in case some fool decides to pick on this as though it is an attack (which it is not).

I don't consider it to be an attack, so don't worry about that. Constructive criticism has gone a long way in moulding this experiment into one that people want to read.

You're right, I am deliberately creating a cliffhanger, but if I posted the full season report before the rest of the report, then the remainder wouldn't hold as much interest to everyone, after already knowing the results.

So, the way I see it, I have two options - wait until completion and then post the lot, which is what I used to do, or post it in parts as I am doing now.

Given that this has progressed from an AI experiment to a experiment/story hybrid, I am splitting the report into chapters, and much like many TV shows and books do, I am creating the break points at crucial moments, as you point out. I actually feel this to be natural to make people want to come back for more. But others may disagree, and I don't claim to know the definitive answer.

I think that most people would rather have chapters every few days rather than the whole report in one, but I am happy to be proven wrong and revert to my old method of posting it all together if this is the case.

I think your main point is the timing of the breaks. I realise that this one is a real tenterhook position, so it is a perfectly fair question to pass that question on the everyone - does this frustrate people? Should I make the break points more structured (every few months, for example), rather than just before something crucial happens?

Thanks for the feedback, I welcome anything that may potentially improve this thread

[kipfizh]

P.S Sorry if I was overly defensive in my reply

[cms186]

don't worry kip, some of us love cliffhngers

[dryden76]

Originally posted by kipfizh:

P.S Sorry if I was overly defensive in my reply

dont worry i wouldnt of been so polite!!! the cliffhangers are hell, but in a good way. i was scrolling th screen down line by line(as many others must of been) scared and compelled, wishing hoping and dreaming of success, yes its true we all ignored the league cup final becasue we were so excited to see the bandits locked in the title chase!!!! heres to the bandits and well played kip, well played..... kutaw.........

[williamshankley]

KUTGW Kip Cliffhangers is all part of the fun!

They are all part of a great thread!

The SMALL minority that want instant results are your Abramovich type people Hey people can be fickle in life

[nick...]

I'm pro-cliffanger

[frosty123]

Cant hold on any longer - Could you not just give us the first sentence of the next report? Please please please?

[dryden76]

please please today put us out of our misery, or into it thiinking about it... been a terrible week for football.... both scotland and england out, united lost and need the bandits to make up for it, couldnt take them lose out at the death........

[Jonzii]

Originally posted by dryden76:

please please today put us out of our misery, or into it thiinking about it... been a terrible week for football.... both scotland and england out, united lost and need the bandits to make up for it, couldnt take them lose out at the death........

You do realise that the Bandits aren't real don't you.

[5ergio]

Originally posted by Jonzii:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by dryden76:

please please today put us out of our misery, or into it thiinking about it... been a terrible week for football.... both scotland and england out, united lost and need the bandits to make up for it, couldnt take them lose out at the death........

You do realise that the Bandits aren't real don't you. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Correction: Believe or not, the Bandits are us and we are "Da Bandits"! If we are not real, then they are not also. But hey, I'm real and so they are

'Mon Bandits winning the League!!

[Wegason]

I've got a question Kip.

Now I may not have paid enough attention in this thread but... in your first post you say

"They were also given a top notch youth academy."

My question is, have any world class players come through the Bandit's youth academy as they constantly seem to be buying players.

[devilish_red2]

they have had a few class players come through ttheir ranks but they left to join a bigger club

[holloway]

Originally posted by Wegason:

I've got a question Kip.

Now I may not have paid enough attention in this thread but... in your first post you say

"They were also given a top notch youth academy."

My question is, have any world class players come through the Bandit's youth academy as they constantly seem to be buying players.

Look for sections titled "The Ryan Morely's of the world. The Bandits have had a few great players who left for other clubs. Some are starting to come back, though.

[Wegason]

That's the thing, Ryan Morley did not come through the Bandits youth system, I believe he was purchased from Colchester or some other club before being sold on. Not sure about the others....

[Wegason]

See Page 11, Ryan Morley was signed for 1.9m from Colchester.

[holloway]

Originally posted by Wegason:

See Page 11, Ryan Morley was signed for 1.9m from Colchester.

Ahhh, well, crud. I thought he was a Bandits youth player.

[dryden76]

.......was paul dove a youth academy product ???

[Sazchu]

Originally posted by dryden76:

please please today put us out of our misery, or into it thiinking about it... been a terrible week for football.... both scotland and england out, united lost and need the bandits to make up for it, couldnt take them lose out at the death........

nothing bad about united losing ^^

[dryden76]

Originally posted by dryden76:

.......was paul dove a youth academy product ???

just found the first mention of him and he was joing the first team way back in 2037/38 when the bandits were already established as a premier league club....

[mocko666]

Isnt it great how we remember regen stars of a club that dont exist in real life football even 15 years after their time great work

[Wegason]

My point is that a big club like the Bandits, with a top notch youth academy should of produced at least a couple of world beaters, or at least stars for the Bandits. A problem with FM07 perhaps...

[deltablue]

hey kipfizh, we understand that doing all the reports for each seasons must take an eternity, but any idea when you think we'll find out the end, if we know when we'll know then we won't mind the delay so much.

[porror]

When you said "I would estimate that each report takes about 15 hours of writing time."

I think it is way too much time.

We should vote on which categories we want, and you should say which ones take the most time.

Because our bandit-addiction is killing us.

[dryden76]

has everyone heard about the football club who were bought by an online group, we could do that for real with fisher athletic........ change the name and find 11 un ambitious 16 year old superstar footballers and sign them up...... easy enough i guess.......

[deltablue]

sounds a great idea, how hard can it be?

[ligerredux]

Originally posted by porror:

When you said "I would estimate that each report takes about 15 hours of writing time."

I think it is way too much time.

We should vote on which categories we want, and you should say which ones take the most time.

Because our bandit-addiction is killing us.

Agreed. I'd like to see this continue and not have Kip burn out too soon. It's a fantastic amount of effort and personally I feel like there are a few things in the report we don't really *need* to see. Perhaps Kip could just make some editorial decisions about which "extra" stuff is most interesting that year. The report, results, transfers and the like is the meat and potatoes. I like the rest but I think it's too much work -- then again since I don't have to do it I suppose it doesn't matter.

Thanks for all the work Kip.

[frosty123]

I dont think there is anything that he could miss out! all is essential for "da bandits"

[chopper99]

Just like to add that I love the cliffhangers

Since you started putting in the little summeries at the start I've enjoyed the thread even more (which is saying something).

I'd also like to re-iterate this question:

origonally posted by Wagson:

I've got a question Kip.

Now I may not have paid enough attention in this thread but... in your first post you say

"They were also given a top notch youth academy."

My question is, have any world class players come through the Bandit's youth academy as they constantly seem to be buying players.

I think this is a very important point and is something that has been discussed a fair bit on the boards over the last year. It's definitely true that a rich club like this one with a top youth acadamy should have produced at least one or two half decent players in the last 40 years.

So have all the top Bandits players been brought in from other teams? Or have there been a few gems coming through the youth acadamy?

[kipfizh]

Re: youth academy

I've only been closely tracking the Bandits squad for around 30 seasons, but in all that time they've never produced a 'one to watch' of any note. As far as I remember, there have never been any 170+ PA players out of that academy.

Ryan Morley and Paul Dove, and in fact all of their talent, have been signed from other clubs.

My hunch is that a top youth academy increases the chances of producing the gems, and increases the training efficiency at youth level, but that star kids can actually appear anywhere in the world.

This is backed up by what I find when writing the 'ones to watch' section - the stars of the future are often found languishing at some remote club somewhere, especially in England (the simulated league).

As for the report, I am actually writing the 'ones to watch' section now, so the full report will come tonight if possible, or tomorrow at the latest.

Thanks for the support folks, it's great to read all the discussions you have

[kipfizh]

On a completely separate note, and I've been thinking about this for a while - wouldn't it be useful in FM if you could add clubs to your shortlist?

In game, you may wish to know about every major event that happens to a club - critical injuries, signings, etc (not overdone).

In an experiment, it is even more useful.

I'm sure people would find this useful in their own games, because if you're interested in the progress of a rival or favourite team, you may wish to add them to your shortlist in this way.

Thoughts?

[williamshankley]

Originally posted by kipfizh:

On a completely separate note, and I've been thinking about this for a while - wouldn't it be useful in FM if you could add clubs to your shortlist?

In game, you may wish to know about every major event that happens to a club - critical injuries, signings, etc (not overdone).

In an experiment, it is even more useful.

I'm sure people would find this useful in their own games, because if you're interested in the progress of a rival or favourite team, you may wish to add them to your shortlist in this way.

Thoughts?

I agree Would be nice to select wha news items you get! I actully mentioned this somewhere nice morning!

KUTGW Kip

The work you have done on this is nothng short of amazing

[Wanson]

Originally posted by williamshankley:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by kipfizh:

On a completely separate note, and I've been thinking about this for a while - wouldn't it be useful in FM if you could add clubs to your shortlist?

In game, you may wish to know about every major event that happens to a club - critical injuries, signings, etc (not overdone).

In an experiment, it is even more useful.

I'm sure people would find this useful in their own games, because if you're interested in the progress of a rival or favourite team, you may wish to add them to your shortlist in this way.

Thoughts?

I agree Would be nice to select wha news items you get! I actully mentioned this somewhere nice morning!

KUTGW Kip

The work you have done on this is nothng short of amazing </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I've wanted this for ages and have mentioned it a few times before. The main thing I'd use it for would be to keep track of the Irish national side while I'm coaching an English, or other national, league. Even though I set my nationality to Irish I never get any news items about them.

Anyway, great work Kips, I've been reading this from the start and I think this is my first reply in the thread.

Eagerly anticipitating the next update.

[chopper99]

RE: Youth acadamy.

Hmmm, interesting. I've always been of the impression that there was quite a good spread of regen talent coming through in the game, and on the whole there is.

However, I find it a little strange that the Bandits have not managed to produce even 1 player good enough to go onto first team football for them.

Although the number of top quality youth players coming through seems about right, it seems very random as to where they appear from. I know this is often the case in the real world but at the same time some clubs have a proven reputation for producing young talent; i.e West Ham, Ajax etc.

In the game I'm starting to think that having a top youth acadamy actually has no effect whatsoever, and you're just as likely to get a top regen with a poorer youth acadamy.

Because I enjoy bringing through youth players on the game it would be nice if you could influance it more in some way, perhaps pour money into scouting the 8-10 year olds and recruiting them to your youth acadamy, or simply just using part of your wage and transfer budget to encourage youth development, something like that. Either way I'd like to see certain clubs churning out more top class players than others, like in real life.

Going back to the number of quality regens, it would be interesting to see how many 170+PA players there are in the game world now compared to day 1 of the experiment. Is it possible to check this in any way Kip?

As always, loving your work

[achilles elbow]

Originally posted by kipfizh:

Re: youth academy

I've only been closely tracking the Bandits squad for around 30 seasons, but in all that time they've never produced a 'one to watch' of any note. As far as I remember, there have never been any 170+ PA players out of that academy.

My hunch is that a top youth academy increases the chances of producing the gems, and increases the training efficiency at youth level, but that star kids can actually appear anywhere in the world.

the stars of the future are often found languishing at some remote club somewhere, especially in England (the simulated league)/QUOTE]

Also, from the first ever post... "The Bandits were given a top notch youth academy"

Are you saying that a top quality academy, a huge stadium filled every week (suggesting a big fan base), money to burn etc etc, and they can't produce top youth players, and that the regens with the highest PA are scattered randomly around the globe?? If so, then that seems wrong?

The spread of great youth players is surely determined by a country's population, then local factors (city clubs should produce more due to higher population numbers and density), then a clubs reputation, wealth, and youth facilities. e.g. in theory Liverpool and Man Utd's youth systems should produce more top PA youngsters than say Stevenage or Woking.

Therefore, do you think there is something in the AI that says the Bandits (prev Fisher Athletic) come from a smaller town, and therefore don't have a big enough local population to produce the occasional star player?

[Blakejo]

Originally posted by achilles elbow:

Also, from the first ever post... "The Bandits were given a top notch youth academy"

Are you saying that a top quality academy, a huge stadium filled every week (suggesting a big fan base), money to burn etc etc, and they can't produce top youth players, and that the regens with the highest PA are scattered randomly around the globe?? If so, then that seems wrong?

The spread of great youth players is surely determined by a country's population, then local factors (city clubs should produce more due to higher population numbers and density), then a clubs reputation, wealth, and youth facilities. e.g. in theory Liverpool and Man Utd's youth systems should produce more top PA youngsters than say Stevenage or Woking.

Therefore, do you think there is something in the AI that says the Bandits (prev Fisher Athletic) come from a smaller town, and therefore don't have a big enough local population to produce the occasional star player?

Fisher Athletic play in South East London in the Docklands Area so I think that geographically they are well and truelly set up well to attract young talent.

[Mravac Kid]

In another thread I've already mentioned my experiences with 170+ PA players... only about 5% of the world's players meet that requirement, and the chances of even one appearing at a club you're watching are pretty slim. I'd assume that top academies produce better players than lesser ones, but it's still the same percentages all around. So a top academy will probably produce more mediocre- to good-level players and probably help them achieve their potential sooner and easier, but the true stars are very, very rare.

[Wegason]

Originally posted by kipfizh:

On a completely separate note, and I've been thinking about this for a while - wouldn't it be useful in FM if you could add clubs to your shortlist?

In game, you may wish to know about every major event that happens to a club - critical injuries, signings, etc (not overdone).

In an experiment, it is even more useful.

I'm sure people would find this useful in their own games, because if you're interested in the progress of a rival or favourite team, you may wish to add them to your shortlist in this way.

Thoughts?

That would be sooooo useful for my AI Experiment 'Birth of a New Nation' as I could add every club in the First Division to my shortlist so I get news items to read when I finish the simulating.