How to exploit the wings.

[lucatonix]

Now although many people say that the game suits narrow formations and I regrettably have to agree. The use of the wings are greatly underestimated. For example why is it that Chelsea, Man U, Real Madrid and Barcelona are so difficult to defend against in game. It is not from their ability to overload the middle or we would just play a 3-5-2. It is the ability to spread the ball at speed and bringing defenders away from the box to allow for a through ball for cross. Even Chelsea's diamond in game uses the width of strikers and midfielders moving into channels to support the full back.

As everyone should know, there are two main types of wingplay: wingers, and inside forwards. However there are more which are rarely thought about once players of the calibre of Messi, Ronaldo and Arshavin enter our minds. What about the Beckham's, Nasri's and Walcott's which would require a very different setting.

I must state before I start that I am just giving examples of how wingplay can work and not all the ways which are effective. There are numerous ways of setting up an inside forward. I am just trying to bring more confidence to using wingers and to allow people to realise that for effective wingplay space creation is essential.

Anyway let's start of with players that cut inside.

Under this category there are inside forwards and advanced playmakers. These are really a luxury that is becoming more sought after in modern football, so much so that a lot of previous out and out wingers have adapted their game to the opposite wing. These are often more effective with opposite-footed players to the wing however players such as Vela and Ronaldo show that in game this is not always the case.

The Inside Forward and Advanced Playmaker

In my opinion the easiest to set up. For this I am going to use Barcelona to explain my setup.

It is important to remember when setting up inside forwards that to be effective they need space in the middle. I mean have you ever seen Messi dribble pass 3 or 4 players when 2 were his own team mates. No. The midfielders sit deep and the strikers move into the channels to create space.

It is important to remember when using wingplay the rest of the team is just as important as the winger or the winger will be isolated or running into col-de-sacs. It is for this reason that for each example I am going to state all my players roles.

GK defend

DR wing back support

DL wing back support

DC defend

DC defend

MCl central mid defend

MCr deep lying playmaker support

MC advanced playmaker support -forward runs mixed

AMR advanced playmaker attack

AML inside forward attack

ST complete forward support

Here is a link to the tactic should you wish to use it: http://www.filefront.com/17350946/cutting inside barca (Barcelona, Jul 2009).tac

As you can see from the screenshot my team are well spaced out and have several passing options. The advanced playmaker creates a triangle and is a superb option. The wingers are fairly advanced but not out of passing distance.

Henry's Settings

In here the inside forward is supposed to be receiving the ball beyond the last man, therefore he has run from deep often. Run from ball is sometimes so he doesn't run into col-de sacs and chooses when he runs through defences rather than wasting possession.

These three links below show the movement created by the inside forward.

http://img3.imageshack.us/i/henrymove1.png/

http://img52.imageshack.us/i/henrymove2.png/

http://img413.imageshack.us/i/henrymove3.png/

As you can see the inside forward has been created space by Ibrahimovic coming deep, allowing Henry to have a run towards goal. This is where inside forwards are most effective, when the space has been created they have the skill and often mental ability to exploit it with a well timed run or dribble.

[lucatonix]

In this example the advanced playmaker is very similar to the inside forward apart from he is deeper and not always running past the last man.

The same formation and tactics used as in the last example.

Messi's Settings

Messi has the ability to dribble through the defense thus he has run with ball often but otherwise he would have this on mixed.

These settings produce some magical runs through the defence and also some nice off the ball movement.

The following screenshots show how Messi drops deep with the lower mentality of an advanced playmaker than an inside forward before starting a dribble towards goal.

Off ball movement:

http://img375.imageshack.us/i/messimove1.png/

http://img443.imageshack.us/i/messimove2.png/

http://img195.imageshack.us/i/messimove3.png/

[lucatonix]

Playmaking on the Wings

Now strictly speaking I am going to use advanced playmaker again but in a completely different way. I am also going to use a wide midfielder for the other flank. I am going to try to position a player on the wing to make diagonal through balls from the sideline. Now I have never tried this before but hopefully this should work. I do believe it will be the hardest out of the types of wingplay however, because I must achieve a balance between runs forward and sitting back and running with the ball and through balls.

I am going to use Tottenham for this example mainly because I am going to use Modric as the advanced playmaker and Lennon and Bentley later as different examples.

Ok so my thinking formation wise is a 4-4-2 as follows.

GK defend

DR full back support

DL wing back attack

DC defend

DC defend

MCr Box to box

MC Deep lying playmaker

MCl attack

AMr inside forward attack

AMl advanced playmaker support

ST advanced forward

This was by far the most difficult to set up because since Modric is not in the centre of the pitch, he is not going to get masses of the ball. So essentially he is acting as a second playmaker and a space creator, because by staying wide he allows the left centre mid to get forward.

Modric's settings

From Modric's passing in game it can be seen that he makes some diagonal balls and also some balls back to the middle which allow for a through ball from deep.

In this example Modric's excellent through ball should result in a goal:

http://img820.imageshack.us/i/modricpass1.png/

http://img72.imageshack.us/i/modricpass2.png/

http://img266.imageshack.us/i/modricpass3.png/

http://img692.imageshack.us/i/modricpass4.png/

[lucatonix]

The Wide Midfielder

This is also another hard one. What do you do with those wingers who are perfectly capable of making a cross but not quick enough to knock the ball past a marker. Players like Bentley and Beckham are difficult to emulate because you have to get the balance between advanced position but not too advanced or they will be marked out of the game. For example Beckham was always advanced enough to do a splitting through ball or cross from deep but never as advanced that he was on or past the full back.

Once again the team formation is very important because it is this that allows a wide midfielder to make runs beyond the defence or make a defence splitting pass.

GK defend

DR full back support

DL wing back attack

DC defend

DC defend

MR wide midfielder attack

MCr deep lying playmaker defend

MCl box to box

AMl advanced playmaker attack

STr advanced playmaker

STl target man support

This formation allowed Bentley to have space because Defoe moving into channels and coming deep meant the full back and centre back were occupied allowing Bentley to get in behind or out wide into space.

Bentley settings:

Bentley is not instructed to do anything imparticular apart from being an average winger. It may seem strange that he has run with ball rarely but with lack of pace he will only run when necessary but otherwise look for a pass or cross, thus making him dangerous since he will find space thanks to Defoe as previously mentioned. Normal wideplay means Bentley is given freedom to move into the space he deems is best for the situation and also means he isnt on the touchline forced to beat the fullback which he cannot do repeatedly.

Bentley's ability to roam and find space can be seen with his passing distribution and shots taken. Notice how he has several shots in the box without being told to cut inside or with excessive runs forward. Bentley has mixed forward runs which allows him to be at the right place at the right time more often than not.

Bentley's goal shows how the movement from Defoe coming wide and deep creates space for Bentley. In other situations he may cross to Crouch or play a through ball to a CM making a run, but in this situation he is led towards goal.

http://img830.imageshack.us/i/bentleygoal1.png/

http://img834.imageshack.us/i/bentleygoal2.png/

http://img841.imageshack.us/i/bentleygoal3.png/

http://img337.imageshack.us/i/bentleygoal4.png/

http://img529.imageshack.us/i/bentleygoal5.png/

[lucatonix]

Winger

Now contrary to what many people believe, an out and out winger is not very common in the Premiership. Really the most effective are Lennon and Walcott currently. Walcott is slightly different because he is forced to cross rarely and whip balls in and cut inside more due to Arsenal's lack of height, however with the inclusion of Chamakh this season, we may see him play a more true winger role.

A winger, in my opinion really needs a few key attributes:

Acceleration and Agility- to get past man and stay past man. to get to balls first

Dribbling- to be able to dribble past the defender

Crossing- needs to be decent so can cross to a number of targets in the box.

Technique- able to use a variety of crosses to get to man

Obviously there are others which would be helpful but these are the main ones. For a succesful winger he needs targets in the box and notice how it is plural. It is for this reason I played Pavlyuchenko rather than Defoe. It is therefore my belief that when attacking down the wing playmakers should stay deep so tall midfielders can push forward. After all Fabregas isnt going to be winning many headers but Diaby has a better chance. In the next post I will show how bodies in the box is very important where I will show a goal from my short team from a cross.

So the formation is as follows:

GK defend

DR full back support

DL full back support

DC defend

DC defend

MCr deep lying playmaker defend

MCl Box to box

AMR winger support

AML advanced playmaker attack

STr advanced forward attack

STl target man support

This formation has atleast 3 players in the box whenever a cross is delivered allowing for the maximum chance that someone will get on the end of it. A number of players with forward runs is essential if you expect to score from a cross.

Aaron Lennon's settings

Roaming is ticked so Lennon moves into space and isn't just on the touchline.

These settings produce these results:

These screenshots suggest Lennon was able to knock the ball past his marker several times allowing him to pick out a cross. A free winger with crossing 12 is better than a winger doubly marked with crossing 20. So the fact that Lennon was able to get free from his marker is very important in his role as a winger.

These links show how he managed to get one of his two assists. (He could have had 3 but Crouch fouled the keeper in one of his goals.)

http://img9.imageshack.us/i/lennonassist1.png/

http://img690.imageshack.us/i/lennonassist2.png/

http://img34.imageshack.us/i/lennonassist3.png/

[lucatonix]

Space Creation

The more astute FM players will have noticed that in each of the examples I have tried to create space in the final third. In the Barca tactic the striker comes deep creating space for the wingers for example.

Space creation is the main focus in attacking football and why Arsenal are often so frustrating because they don't pass the ball quick enough at times or are urgent enough with their play to open up orgainised defences that sit deep.

Space creation is ultraimportant for all attacking play but also for wingers. It is vitally important that wingers and fullbacks are free when making a cross if it is to be successful. The easiest way to do this is have 2 or 3 players at the wing. Now this doesn't mean playing with lots of attacking wingers and fullbacks but could be with a striker who moves into channels. Space creation in the box is also of great importance. There is no point in having a player standing waiting for a cross because a defender will just stand next to him. Movement is necessary to lose a marker, and the more players there are in the box, the less movement each player needs to make because each player will have less attention by his marker and less markers on him in total.

The following example will display how space creation allows a small AM to score a header from point blank range.

It can be seen from these links the the team I possess is not tall and has no height advantage over my opposition, infact I would say a disadvantage in that department, and thus crosses would be a waste of possession unless aimed at Vassallo. My formation shows that I am not playing particularly wide either.

http://img827.imageshack.us/i/rasenballsportleipzig.png/]

http://img839.imageshack.us/i/fccfr1907cluj.png/

http://img571.imageshack.us/i/rbleipzigvcfrcluj6.png/

The first link below shows our team breaking down the wing after one of their attacks breaks down. From this screenshot it looks as if we may get a maximum of 3 attacking the box when the cross comes in.

http://img529.imageshack.us/i/rbleipzigvcfrcluj.png/

Now Vassallo is our only aerial threat and therefore doesn't exactly have amazing pace so the right back catches up with him. Vassallo sensibly holds up the ball allowing 4 players to enter the box. When Vassallo beats his man, he sees no free men in the box and thus plays the ball short to Verratti.

Verratti moves out wide with the ball drawing defenders out of the box and crucially no.8 away from our left back. This allows him to him to have a free cross later on in the move. Notice how our 3 in the centre are all very central and trying to be as advanced as possible. This has left my 3 attackers against 2 defenders because no.17 is cautious of my DM who has the ability to fire in a long shot with all the space he is in. It therefore makes him take up a bad decision due to being stuck in to minds as to who to mark, a poor aerial striker in a good position or a good player at the edge of the box. It is also easy to see that the defenders in the confusion are on the wrong side of the strikers. This has arised due to zonal marking being inadequate since a particular zone is overloaded and man marking has gone out of the window since all of their players have been drawn out of position.

When the ball comes in no.12 from my team drops deep creating space for the other two strikers by drawing away the defender no. 3. For some unknown reason no.15 from CFR Cluj is ball watching and loses position but he is cannot mark two players anyway. Botelho, my left back is completely free when the ball is played to him allowing him to play a ball first time to the middle.

Now even a terrible header of the ball couldn't miss from here. Unchallenged and from point blank range, almost impossible to miss thanks to good movement.

Space was initially created by my striker moving wide. Then my CM moved wide. These two movements meant that the centre was understaffed with defenders and thanks to my numerous RFD mixed or above the box was overloaded by my team allowing for the easy goal.

I hope this shows the importance of having numerous players in the box even if they are poor aerially because it creates space for your strikers and wingers if you have some players moving into channels. Plus attacking in numbers doesn't have to leave you exposed since my DM and 2 CBs would probably be able to defend against a counter unless we were particularly unlucky with a bad bounce or something. This is because you opponents are forced back and cannot afford to spare players up the pitch.

[jaycar]

Good stuff so far

[Falahk]

yeah does indeed seams like a good start, looking forward to read the remaining parts

[lucatonix]

Have been thinking of creating this thread for ages. The statements saying that wingers are very difficult to use just annoys me. Normally it is due to not overloading the box, and poor space creation on the wing. Last match with RB Leipzig with whom I have the shortest team in the league, Geal Kakuta just scored a header from a cross.

[lucatonix]

I am thinking that after finishing wingers I am going to try the use of fullbacks and wingbacks.

[lucatonix]

Playmaking from the wings is seemingly nigh on impossible. They just don't see enough of the ball. I think a change of formation may be necessary

[yonko1]

Question: Why does Bentley have run with ball = rarely and cross from = byline? Shouldn't he be on cross from = deep or maybe mixed? I remember Beckham when he used to play for Man U, he was sending crosses earlier and quickly to York and Cole. He was also sending the occasional cross field pass to Giggs as well.

Another question: What is your take on using "moves into channels" instead of "cuts inside" for Inside Forwards and Advanced Playmakers? And what is the difference between the two wideplays in your opinion?

[Maz]

Playmaking from the wings is seemingly nigh on impossible. They just don't see enough of the ball. I think a change of formation may be necessary

would it be possible for you to upload the tactic used with barcelona please? thanks

[lucatonix]

Question: Why does Bentley have run with ball = rarely and cross from = byline? Shouldn't he be on cross from = deep or maybe mixed?

You are quite right Bentley should have cross from mixed, it is a mistake on my part.

Run with ball rarely is there because essentially Bentley is not the best dribbler and isn't the quickest. He will still dribble but he will always look for a pass first whether it is a through ball or cross or a simple pass back to a centre midfielder. He would still perform with run with ball mixed but I wanted a player who would receive the ball and lay it off then look for space.

Another question: What is your take on using "moves into channels" instead of "cuts inside" for Inside Forwards and Advanced Playmakers? And what is the difference between the two wideplays in your opinion?

First of all lets consider what they mean. I believe that cut inside means come inside the pitch, whether it is either towards goal or parallel with the penalty area. This is highly effective for an advanced playmaker since it allows him to run in between the lines (and sometimes infront of both opposition midfield and defence and attack the defence or play a through ball. On the other hand for an Inside Forward, with the increased mentality and forward runs they are encouraged to run at the last defender with the ball or behind the defender. They also will run inbetween the lines.

However with moves into channels I believe encourages the player to run towards goal, and therefore is more direct in his runs with and without the ball. It could if correctly set up allow the player to score more goals, since he runs at goal more often, however against good defenders they can be ushered out wide more easily especially if they are right footed and on the right wing or vice versa.

I myself prefer cut inside because I believe it produces better football, since the player assists more and is thus less predictable. However I do prefer football tactics where any number of players on the field can score a fair number of goals across a season.

Before saying one is better than the other I would say think of the context. If playing a 4-3-3 I would probably say cut inside because it would allow them to be closer to the striker and midfield for linkup play, however if playing a 4-2-3-1 perhaps moves into channels or the centre may become congested due to the AMC and strikers.

[lucatonix]

would it be possible for you to upload the tactic used with barcelona please? thanks

Unfortunately that is not the point of the thread plus you would be disappointed because I have not put excessive thought into it. The tactics themselves were created to show examples of how space creation is much more important on the wing because being further from the goal means it is harder to produce a delish ball, plus with traditional defenders often being used by smaller teams, crosses cannot just be pinged into the box unless you have a Crouch or Dzeko and several other targets.

Having said that I will post the tactic and all the others if I haven't deleted the save. I hope it is successful for you but you must tweak it and adjust any settings you feel are poor since I have only played a few games with each.

[Maz]

No worries mate. Did you tinker any other settings for the players or are they left default? and also with the advance settings in the team instructions? this was the only reason why i asked if you could upload it.

[lucatonix]

I did tinker with it although not excessively will upload it now whilst images are uploading for next topic.

[lucatonix]

Here is the tactic for barca: http://www.filefront.com/17350946/cutting inside barca (Barcelona, Jul 2009).tac

It should be reasonable and a strong base for a good tactic. Don't be afraid to adjust any settings.

[yonko1]

First of all lets consider what they mean. I believe that cut inside means come inside the pitch, whether it is either towards goal or parallel with the penalty area. This is highly effective for an advanced playmaker since it allows him to run in between the lines (and sometimes infront of both opposition midfield and defence and attack the defence or play a through ball. On the other hand for an Inside Forward, with the increased mentality and forward runs they are encouraged to run at the last defender with the ball or behind the defender. They also will run inbetween the lines.

However with moves into channels I believe encourages the player to run towards goal, and therefore is more direct in his runs with and without the ball. It could if correctly set up allow the player to score more goals, since he runs at goal more often, however against good defenders they can be ushered out wide more easily especially if they are right footed and on the right wing or vice versa.

I myself prefer cut inside because I believe it produces better football, since the player assists more and is thus less predictable. However I do prefer football tactics where any number of players on the field can score a fair number of goals across a season.

Before saying one is better than the other I would say think of the context. If playing a 4-3-3 I would probably say cut inside because it would allow them to be closer to the striker and midfield for linkup play, however if playing a 4-2-3-1 perhaps moves into channels or the centre may become congested due to the AMC and strikers.

For some reason, I always believed that "cuts inside" affects the player when he has the ball only/mostly, hence it requires "run with ball" = often. And "moves into channels" is for when the player makes runs off the ball only/mostly, hence it's better to have "runs from deep" = often. At least that is what I have observed from my games, which I always play on extended highlights. Am I right to assume this or do both wideplay instructions affect both when the player has the ball and when he is making a run off the ball. How does roaming affect either one then?

I'm currently experimenting with my 4-3-3 (3 MC's) in my Barca game (beginning of 4th season) where I have Messi as AMR, inside forward on attack with "cuts inside", roaming, mixed RFD, often RWB, mixed TTB, no crossing, no long shots. On the other side Bojan or Pedro are also set up as inside forward on attack but with "moves into channels", roaming, often RFD, mixed RWB, mixed Long Shots, no TTB, no crossing. I started using these settings for the last 10-15 games at the end of the 3rd season - Messi started playing even better and scored 12 goals with 7-8 assists, including two deadly goals in the CL final vs Real M. At the same time, I noticed that Bojan or Pedro were struggling on the other side with their settings. With RFD on often and "moves into channels" they didn't see much of the ball and when they got the ball they were force wider for pointless crosses. I changed RFD to mixed and RWB to often, they got the ball more often then but still were forced wider.

So in conclusion, for the way I want to play, "cuts inside" with roaming, mixed RFD, often RWB, mixed TTB, no long shots and no crossing is the way to go. I think "moves into channels" could be effective if I gave my MCl and MCr mixed RFD and roaming plus give my FBs more attacking instructions, which will make for a totally different tactic, but it might be worth experimenting.

In addition, I know you said you were gonna talk about fullbacks and wingbacks later, but I believe it would be better for the whole discussion to include them now. I personally am a fan of fullbacks that are instructed to provide balanced between attack and defense, which is what I aim for in my current tactic.

Keep up the good work.

[Maz]

Thank you Lucatonix gonna try it now.

[phidelta42]

Question: Why does Bentley have run with ball = rarely and cross from = byline? Shouldn't he be on cross from = deep or maybe mixed? I remember Beckham when he used to play for Man U, he was sending crosses earlier and quickly to York and Cole. He was also sending the occasional cross field pass to Giggs as well.

You are quite right Bentley should have cross from mixed, it is a mistake on my part.

Run with ball rarely is there because essentially Bentley is not the best dribbler and isn't the quickest. He will still dribble but he will always look for a pass first whether it is a through ball or cross or a simple pass back to a centre midfielder. He would still perform with run with ball mixed but I wanted a player who would receive the ball and lay it off then look for space.

When I use wide midfielders I have crossing set to deep/sometimes with throughballs on often and normal wideplay.

The deep searching crosses have always seemed more effective to me than crosses from the byline. Get the defenders moving back towards their own goal The diagonal throughball between fullback and centre half creates high quality one-on-one chances aswell, strikers have the angle to score rather than having to work an angle from a straight throughball.

[lucatonix]

When I use wide midfielders I have crossing set to deep/sometimes with throughballs on often and normal wideplay.

The deep searching crosses have always seemed more effective to me than crosses from the byline. Get the defenders moving back towards their own goal The diagonal throughball between fullback and centre half creates high quality one-on-one chances aswell, strikers have the angle to score rather than having to work an angle from a straight throughball.

There are numerous ways to set up each of these examples of wideplay. Wide midfielders can be used mainly as a position for angled throughballs like in your example or for crossing from deep, or as a mixture as in my example.

[lucatonix]

For some reason, I always believed that "cuts inside" affects the player when he has the ball only/mostly, hence it requires "run with ball" = often. And "moves into channels" is for when the player makes runs off the ball only/mostly, hence it's better to have "runs from deep" = often. At least that is what I have observed from my games, which I always play on extended highlights. Am I right to assume this or do both wideplay instructions affect both when the player has the ball and when he is making a run off the ball. How does roaming affect either one then?

I'm currently experimenting with my 4-3-3 (3 MC's) in my Barca game (beginning of 4th season) where I have Messi as AMR, inside forward on attack with "cuts inside", roaming, mixed RFD, often RWB, mixed TTB, no crossing, no long shots. On the other side Bojan or Pedro are also set up as inside forward on attack but with "moves into channels", roaming, often RFD, mixed RWB, mixed Long Shots, no TTB, no crossing. I started using these settings for the last 10-15 games at the end of the 3rd season - Messi started playing even better and scored 12 goals with 7-8 assists, including two deadly goals in the CL final vs Real M. At the same time, I noticed that Bojan or Pedro were struggling on the other side with their settings. With RFD on often and "moves into channels" they didn't see much of the ball and when they got the ball they were force wider for pointless crosses. I changed RFD to mixed and RWB to often, they got the ball more often then but still were forced wider.

So in conclusion, for the way I want to play, "cuts inside" with roaming, mixed RFD, often RWB, mixed TTB, no long shots and no crossing is the way to go. I think "moves into channels" could be effective if I gave my MCl and MCr mixed RFD and roaming plus give my FBs more attacking instructions, which will make for a totally different tactic, but it might be worth experimenting.

In addition, I know you said you were gonna talk about fullbacks and wingbacks later, but I believe it would be better for the whole discussion to include them now. I personally am a fan of fullbacks that are instructed to provide balanced between attack and defense, which is what I aim for in my current tactic.

Keep up the good work.

All the wideplay options affect the player on and off the ball. Forgetting the ball for a moment, a player "cutting inside" would start wide then move inside the pitch. He may receive the ball before he makes this run, during the run or at the end when he is through on goal for example. At which time he receives the ball depends on your settings. If he has run from deep often then he is more likely to receive the ball closer to the goal whilst he is making he run or at the end of it, whereas with RFD sometimes, he is more likely to receive the ball on the wing before he makes a run with the ball.

I believe 'channels' is an area (vertically) inbetween positions on the pitch e.g. between CB and FB:

---c----FB-----c----CB

The small c represents a channel. In FM wingers will look to move inside the FB but are quite content to be forced out wide if need be. They are essentially being told attack the box in my opinion. For a 4-3-3, the winger may then become more isolated due to being forced out wide by an organised defence especially if they have RFD often because they will be too far forward and not close to many players, thus a pass would be risky. By telling them to have RFD mixed they have become deeper and thus more accessible but can still be forced wide due to the inside channel not having a (very) strong preference over the outside channel. I would suggest putting them to cut inside and RWB mixed so they are more selective with their runs, plus they should create more for your better players (ie striker probably and Messi).

The problem with wingers on moves into channels is that they can become isolated where as on cutting inside they would probably make a run inbetween the lines to become involved more and create problems for the defence.

Full backs are 2nd on my to do list unfortunately behind space creation.

[yonko1]

All the wideplay options affect the player on and off the ball. Forgetting the ball for a moment, a player "cutting inside" would start wide then move inside the pitch. He may receive the ball before he makes this run, during the run or at the end when he is through on goal for example. At which time he receives the ball depends on your settings. If he has run from deep often then he is more likely to receive the ball closer to the goal whilst he is making he run or at the end of it, whereas with RFD sometimes, he is more likely to receive the ball on the wing before he makes a run with the ball.

I believe 'channels' is an area (vertically) inbetween positions on the pitch e.g. between CB and FB:

---c----FB-----c----CB

The small c represents a channel. In FM wingers will look to move inside the FB but are quite content to be forced out wide if need be. They are essentially being told attack the box in my opinion. For a 4-3-3, the winger may then become more isolated due to being forced out wide by an organised defence especially if they have RFD often because they will be too far forward and not close to many players, thus a pass would be risky. By telling them to have RFD mixed they have become deeper and thus more accessible but can still be forced wide due to the inside channel not having a (very) strong preference over the outside channel. I would suggest putting them to cut inside and RWB mixed so they are more selective with their runs, plus they should create more for your better players (ie striker probably and Messi).

The problem with wingers on moves into channels is that they can become isolated where as on cutting inside they would probably make a run inbetween the lines to become involved more and create problems for the defence.

Full backs are 2nd on my to do list unfortunately behind space creation.

I totally agree with this as I've noticed the same thing from my experiments. So now I have my wingers set up to "cuts inside" with mixed RFD, often RWB, no LS, mixed TTB, no Crossing. They also have lots of Creative Freedom and roaming.

[lucatonix]

I would suggest if you play a winger who is not as good (ie a back up or youngster) or a selfish player then you could use RWB mixed to improve performances. It means that the players make their own judgement and are not forced to run with the ball when they would hold position for another player to get forward. For more reasoning see this thread by SFraser: Creativity and Flair.

It was very useful in realising that individual instructions do not have to force a player to play a certain way if that is what you want but by giving them more freedom in their own choice they can produce better football at times. However for a player like Messi i would use RWB often almost all the time because he has that ability to get past any man.

[yonko1]

I would suggest if you play a winger who is not as good (ie a back up or youngster) or a selfish player then you could use RWB mixed to improve performances. It means that the players make their own judgement and are not forced to run with the ball when they would hold position for another player to get forward. For more reasoning see this thread by SFraser: Creativity and Flair.

It was very useful in realising that individual instructions do not have to force a player to play a certain way if that is what you want but by giving them more freedom in their own choice they can produce better football at times. However for a player like Messi i would use RWB often almost all the time because he has that ability to get past any man.

In my opinion, youngsters should be faced with less decisions to make since usually their decision attribute is low but technical attributes such as dribbling are higher. On another note, I like having my front three on RWB = often, as that way they draw players away and/or draw a lot of free kicks in dangerous areas. Besides Messi, I have Aguero, Bojan and Neymar with amazing dribbling abilities, of course I'm gonna let them run with the ball a lot. It would be a crime not to IMO. Also Villa and Pedro are not bad at dribbling either.

[Ori]

Dont you think that Nani is a traditional winger?

Anyway I learned some new things here - great guide

[lucatonix]

Dont you think that Nani is a traditional winger?

Anyway I learned some new things here - great guide

I would say that he is a very versatile player and could fulfill a winger/inside forward very well. I believe he could be a good advanced playmaker attack as well.

EDIT: playmaker not forward

[lucatonix]

In my opinion, youngsters should be faced with less decisions to make since usually their decision attribute is low but technical attributes such as dribbling are higher. On another note, I like having my front three on RWB = often, as that way they draw players away and/or draw a lot of free kicks in dangerous areas. Besides Messi, I have Aguero, Bojan and Neymar with amazing dribbling abilities, of course I'm gonna let them run with the ball a lot. It would be a crime not to IMO. Also Villa and Pedro are not bad at dribbling either.

I can see your point there, but it is a balancing act obviously. A slower less agile player imo would benefit from RWB mixed whereas a naturally quick youngster would benefit from RWB often. It depends on the stage of development of the player. I mean if I put a youngster on the wing for me, who was pretty slow I would probably set him up more like I did with Bentley than Messi for example, however if I had the next Walcott, I would have no problem playing him like Messi because his pace would save him from trouble. I might lower his CF, however if he becomes particularly wasteful.

I think we both know that in your case run with ball often would be the right decision with the players you have, but I don't want you to think that certain settings mean definite individual settings. I normally start with all individual settings on mixed and then move them away when I think what do I want him to do.

[Miek]

Finally someone has come up with a great thread on wingers. Tonight i'm gonna take the time to read all this and comment back. For me, Wingers are the hardest to set-up.

[lucatonix]

Finally someone has come up with a great thread on wingers. Tonight i'm gonna take the time to read all this and comment back. For me, Wingers are the hardest to set-up.

Thank you. I was feeling the same way. I always saw people not using wingers and it annoyed me how it was always a great success or failure. Wingers are the hardest to set up in my opinion because it is a balancing act between the winger's strengths and the rest of the team. Unlike, CMs which you can alter quite a lot because tactics revolve around them, wingers must be intune with the rest of your team and set up without them in mind.

For example, Modric behind 2 strikers as an advanced playmaker attack is not going to be getting through on goal as much as he would behind one striker because it is too crowded. Modric's primary function behind 2 strikers should be to assist regularly rather than to score regularly. This doesn't mean he won't score but he should create more than he should score due to the strikers ahead of him.

[Guido]

Great thread with some good ideas. Do you ever set up a winger from MR/L position instead of AMR/L? If so what would change? I would think just the runs from deep instruction to often?

Im also curious as to why you dont want the winger crossing often to a big target man like Crouch?

[lucatonix]

Great thread with some good ideas. Do you ever set up a winger from MR/L position instead of AMR/L? If so what would change? I would think just the runs from deep instruction to often?

Im also curious as to why you dont want the winger crossing often to a big target man like Crouch?

Well when crossing is on often, I generally find that players cross into dangerous areas even when there is nobody ready to get on the end of it. With it on mixed, and run with ball often, the winger will get into a dangerous position and if they see Crouch or anyone available they will ping in a cross. Crossing, mixed, also reduces the times when a winger crosses the ball even though under huge pressure from the defender.

And yes I do sometimes set wingers from MR/ML if I want more defensive stability but I believe generally they perform better offensively from AMR/AML. I don't believe you need much change in instructions, and I would hesitate to give runs from deep often because they can become too advanced. I would much rather give them a higher menatlity and runs from deep mixed.

[Ori]

A thought i just had:

What is the crossing rate of lennon? in my games its ALWAYS around 10% i'd really like to know

[lucatonix]

I think in that game it was around 20%, which is ok I think. 10% is abit low. You should look at his crosses to see if you have enough players in the box or if Lennon is just crossing too often.

[John_Cro]

Your thread and the way of thinking is absolutely amazing. I tried your Barca tactic and it did wonders to my game record. Thank you. I'll come back with some questions about some details but for now let's just say thanks and keep up the good work

[dz47]

Really interesting thread. I’m keen to try a tactic with wingers as I love to see good wing play IRL, and have (like many others) struggled to get a good tactic going with wingers.

I’m currently half way through season one with Everton using a 4312 formation, but I’m seriously considering setting up an alternative 442 to use (my back room staff are constantly telling me that team x struggled against teams that play 442). Everton also have some good players for the wide roles (ie Arteta, Pienaar, Baines and Neville), all of whom should in theory be capable of getting good crosses in (and in Arteta’s case, some good runs and through balls also). I’ve also bought two new strikers (Cardozo and Welliton) who should be almost perfect for such a set up. The set up I would be thinking of would be something like:

MR/winger attack: Arteta (with mixed fwd runs, crossing and through balls)

ML/winger attack: Pienaar (set up more to cut inside and run at the defense)

MC/ball winner support: Cahill (looking to get forward into the box)

MC/deep playmaker defend: Fellaini (able to provide a deep outlet)

DL/fullback attack: Baines (with mixed crossing aiming at back post)

DR/fullback/support: Neville (set up to cross from deep)

ST/target man support: Cardozo (playing on the right side and looking to receive crosses from Baines and occasionally Pienaar)

ST/poacher: Welliton (playing on the left and looking for through balls to run onto as well as back post crosses from Arteta and Neville)

My main concern would be setting up Arteta so that he is still able to be a creative force from his wide position.

I’d be interested in how others think such a set up with these players would go.

[lucatonix]

That seems quite good although, if it were me I would set Cardozo more as a complete forward support with player instructions on mixed. I am unsure as to how to play Pienaar. I had great success using Dentinho at ML on FM09, so much so that he was prized away from QPR by Barcelona so it can be done. You could perhaps try him as a winger attack with mixed forward runs, cut inside and run with ball mixed. I would say that Welliton should perhaps be an advanced forward so he comes deep more often and is involved more in build up play but maybe that's just my preference of adv. forward over poacher.

Generally I urge you to not put crossing on often unless your players get into the box very early or you may find your wingers crossing way too early when they should really be looking to hold up the ball and maybe cut it back to a midfielder since no one is in a good position in the box. See my post on space creation for more reasoning.

[dz47]

Thanks for the feedback. I’m interested in your reasoning behind having Cardozo as complete fwd/support rather than target man? Also, with Welliton I find that even with a poacher role he still gets fairly involved in play (eg he doesn’t just sit on the shoulder waiting for the final ball), but I will give him a go as advanced fwd and see how he goes. Also, do you have any other advice on how to best play Arteta, as I see his ability to perform from the MR position to be critical to the overall team performance as I will still be relying on him quite heavily as a creative force?

I’m still a bit undecided on setting up this tactic as my team is going very well and I don’t really want to disrupt the rhythm, so I may end up waiting until the season is finished and experiment a bit in preseason. Or maybe I’ll just go for it!!!

[lucatonix]

Well, if you play him as a target man the other players are automatically set to cross to him but your team has several tall players meaning anyone can win a header in the box. also by playing Cardozo as a complete forward he is given more of a free role and can move around much more which makes your team harder to defend against.

I would also having looked at Fellaini make him the ball winner support and Cahill box to box, but maybe raise the mentality slightly. This is because with 19 jumping he can outjump pretty much any defender so you might as well utilise this. Neville should probably be kept back then and one of your CBs made a ball playing CB so you have someone slightly deeper:

GK defend

DR defend/support Neville

DL attack Baines

DCr ball playing midfielder stopper Rodwell (like a deep playmaker essentially)

DCl central defender cover

MR wide midfielder attack Arteta (setup similar to Bentley)

ML winger support Pienaar (setup as like my last post)

MCr Ball winning midfielder support Fellaini (reduce mentality slightly)

MCl Box to Box support Cahill (increase mentality)

STl complete forward support Cardozo

STr advanced fwd/poacher Welliton

I suggest using Arteta as a wide midfielder because he will make intelligent runs and passes. He won't really be winger like Lennon, but more like Beckham in my opinion as to how he will play. He should have crossing mixed though because he may not always get to the byline. You could give him mixed run with ball though. I would say you should experiment in the preseason rather than risk your good run.

[John_Cro]

Your tactic is really made on firm ground. But now I would like to take it one step further. Maybe we can all give our sugesstions. For example, Messi is not playing well this season in AMR adv. play position. What can I do?

I tweaked your settings a bit and now is really decent tactic but it can be even better.

[Terk]

Excellent thread, lucatonix. Good to see someone taking on the misconception that wing play in FM10 is useless.

I've been having a lot of success on my current save with the combination of a wide midfielder (support) in the ML position and a wing back (attack) from DL. The wide midfielder will often take up a position between the opposition's midfield and defensive lines, giving them a dilemma as to who should mark him. It will regularly turn out to be the opposition full back, who is dragged out of position, leaving acres of space for the wing back to overlap into and deliver his cross.

[lucatonix]

Your tactic is really made on firm ground. But now I would like to take it one step further. Maybe we can all give our sugesstions. For example, Messi is not playing well this season in AMR adv. play position. What can I do?

I tweaked your settings a bit and now is really decent tactic but it can be even better.

Well, I would have a look at why Messi is not doing well. If he is too isolated maybe give another CM more forward runs by making him a central midfielder support.

[lucatonix]

Excellent thread, lucatonix. Good to see someone taking on the misconception that wing play in FM10 is useless.

I've been having a lot of success on my current save with the combination of a wide midfielder (support) in the ML position and a wing back (attack) from DL. The wide midfielder will often take up a position between the opposition's midfield and defensive lines, giving them a dilemma as to who should mark him. It will regularly turn out to be the opposition full back, who is dragged out of position, leaving acres of space for the wing back to overlap into and deliver his cross.

Yes this is a prime example of what Beckham used to do for England and Manchester United. Essentially by doubling up on a full-back, several high-quality crosses can be made by getting into space. It also means the team is less vulnerable to a counter than if an out and out winger is used because the wide midfielder is able to provide some cover for the defence on the counter more quickly since he is less advanced.