These forums

[WoIfsong]

Originally posted by Jimbokav1971:

Wolfsong. It might appear that way but that is simply not the case, (although it certainly doesn't help). If you look towards the bottom of the 2nd page of this thread you will see a link I posted to a similar threa that was started by a normal poster, (rather than SI themselves), and it is full of the same sort of posts as this thread. It was created in August 2006.

Sorry, but you are just wrong.

This is an on-going issue that has certainly been made worse by the reaction to the recent release, but the game itslef is nowhere near the biggest issue here.

Have a look at the thread I'm taking about and you will see all the same comments, (made by largely the same people). The only difference being that they were posted about 18 months ago.

Unfotunately I can see a material difference between the old threads you have linked and the current one here.

The old ones were started by posters themselves (as you have correctly pointed out) and were directed at issues of posters being 'unfriedly' thus 'unhelpful' to each other and posters who act as 'topic police' and say things such as 'do a search' to other posters. There were unrelated to SI, or the quality of the product of SI.

On the other hand, the current issue is originated from at what SI calls 'destructive criticicms', that is, posts which criticises SI and/or its product and which are deemed by SI to be baseless. Of course a part of the current issue also involves posters being rude to each other too, but the majority of those rude comments were made about issues such as whether SI was lazy/complacent in the current release, whether Fm08 was of good enough quality and/or whether SI had done enough in communicating with their customers etc.

Therefore in my honest opinion the current state of the forums is directly related to the product of SI as well as the public image/forum image of the SI company as presented on these forums as a whole.

The old threads were not.

[asshole182]

I think you need to check out the LLM forum. They flame and call names if you don't type with capital letters. It's a horrid forum in there, the people all seem so high and mighty.

[FrazT]

Originally posted by Miles Jacobson:

Fraz - Ackter is spot on. Simply, Xmas got in the way, as a lot of the testers were away with their families, rather than in the office or near a computer.

Miles/Ackter

This is true for the Bugs forum possibly, but the last input from SI/Mods in the Support forum was around 25th Novemeber so Xmas cant be an issue there. I raised the issue of Support forum in October and it had great support for about 4 weeks and then stopped.

[Ched]

Originally posted by asshole182:

I think you need to check out the LLM forum. They flame and call names if you don't type with capital letters. It's a horrid forum in there, the people all seem so high and mighty.

Spot on.

I went there some time ago, and after reading the forum rules really wasn't to sure what i actually could post.

Hence despite my affinity for vauxhall motors, i stayed away from the llm forums.

Just been there now and lo and behold, the first 3 threads i look at are in some way or other unpleasant, with completely useless moans at new users:

e.g

here - where a user is treated with general suspicion for looking at an eastern european league.

here - where despite many people being pleasant there are still idiots throwing the word newbie around, and yet no punishment metered out by mods.

And here - where a PERFECTLY ACCEPTABLE thread is being asked to be closed because it "invites borderline tipping" - when it quite clearly doesn't.

Needless to say i'm once again leaving that forum well alone. It may be better moderated in some places, it may have nicer people in some places, but as far as i'm concerned if the first 3 threads are distinctly unpleasant (no worse than many in GQ, it just seems it's accepted behaviour there..) then i'll leave the place alone.

[Jimbokav1971]

Ched. The problems exist in LLM purely because posters insist on posting in there without adhering to the forum rules, (where have we heard that before). If you weren't aware, there are different rules in LLM than operate in the rest of the forums. All that is asked is that you either adhere to them, or post elsewhere. I think that's pretty reasonable. Comment from regular users when you do not adhere to these rules should be considered reasonable should it not.

here - where a user is treated with general suspicion for looking at an eastern european league.

The reason he "is treated with general suspicion for looking at an eastern european league" is simply because it breaks some of the rules that you must adhere to if you want to play by LLM rules. You don't have to adhere to the rules, and can play the game in any way you want, but if you don't adhere to the rules then you shouldn't post in there.

here - where despite many people being pleasant there are still idiots throwing the word newbie around, and yet no punishment metered out by mods.

There were 28 polite and friendly responses in that thread and 1 silly newbie comment. If only GQ couls reach the levels of 28 decent posts to 1 poorone we would not be having this discussion.

And here - where a PERFECTLY ACCEPTABLE thread is being asked to be closed because it "invites borderline tipping" - when it quite clearly doesn't.

One of the rules in LLM is that there is NO TIPPING. Now that doesn't mean, "not much tipping", or "only a little bit of tipping", or "only tipping when we need help", it means NO TIPPING. The comment about "borderline tipping" was questioning whether this thread tipped by encouraging people to loan players in. Obviously the Mods don't believe that that it does because they have taken no action, but I think it was a pretty reasonable comment, (even if I do not agree with it). You also fail to mention that that comment was posted at the end of a post that replied to the oroginal point in a very reasonable manner. By quoting just what you want, in order to promote your ill feelings towards the LLM forum, you made it look like the poster had posted that comment and that comment alone.

To be honest Ched, the reasons that you would not have been welcomed with open arms in the LLM forum is that you post in forums that break the ethics of being a LLM manager. There is nothing wrong with that in itself, but if that's what you want to do, please have the good sense to not post in the LLM forum in the first place. It's not for everyone, (and doesn't look like it's for you), but that doesn't mean that it's not a friendly and well run forum.

It's comments like yours above, which keep this myth about the unfriendly LLM alive.

I've said it before and I will say it again. LLM forum is a far far far far friendlier place than GQ.

[Ched]

Originally posted by Jimbokav1971:

Ched. The problems exist in LLM purely because posters insist on posting in there without adhering to the forum rules, (where have we heard that before). If you weren't aware, there are different rules in LLM than operate in the rest of the forums. All that is asked is that you either adhere to them, or post elsewhere. I think that's pretty reasonable. Comment from regular users when you do not adhere to these rules should be considered reasonable should it not.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">here - where a user is treated with general suspicion for looking at an eastern european league.

The reason he "is treated with general suspicion for looking at an eastern european league" is simply because it breaks some of the rules that you must adhere to if you want to play by LLM rules. You don't have to adhere to the rules, and can play the game in any way you want, but if you don't adhere to the rules then you shouldn't post in there.

here - where despite many people being pleasant there are still idiots throwing the word newbie around, and yet no punishment metered out by mods.

There were 28 polite and friendly responses in that thread and 1 silly newbie comment. If only GQ couls reach the levels of 28 decent posts to 1 poorone we would not be having this discussion.

And here - where a PERFECTLY ACCEPTABLE thread is being asked to be closed because it "invites borderline tipping" - when it quite clearly doesn't.

One of the rules in LLM is that there is NO TIPPING. Now that doesn't mean, "not much tipping", or "only a little bit of tipping", or "only tipping when we need help", it means NO TIPPING. The comment about "borderline tipping" was questioning whether this thread tipped by encouraging people to loan players in. Obviously the Mods don't believe that that it does because they have taken no action, but I think it was a pretty reasonable comment, (even if I do not agree with it). You also fail to mention that that comment was posted at the end of a post that replied to the oroginal point in a very reasonable manner. By quoting just what you want, in order to promote your ill feelings towards the LLM forum, you made it look like the poster had posted that comment and that comment alone.

To be honest Ched, the reasons that you would not have been welcomed with open arms in the LLM forum is that you post in forums that break the ethics of being a LLM manager. There is nothing wrong with that in itself, but if that's what you want to do, please have the good sense to not post in the LLM forum in the first place. It's not for everyone, (and doesn't look like it's for you), but that doesn't mean that it's not a friendly and well run forum.

It's comments like yours above, which keep this myth about the unfriendly LLM alive.

I've said it before and I will say it again. LLM forum is a far far far far friendlier place than GQ. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

1/ As far as my understanding of the rules go the post regarding bulgaria/romania does not appear to break any llm rules. It's just that one user considers barnsley to be llm and asked a perfectly reasonable question.

2/ there is nowhere near the amount of anti-newbie posts in GQ - granted they are outnumbered by rants and anti fanboy posts, but surely "it's worse here" is no sort of defence.

3/ In what way was "do you think this many loan players is acceptable?" tipping? in what possible way could this be construed as tipping? it was a perfectly reasonable question, met with the characteristic unfriendly response from llm to a new (ish) user.

And of course i'm going to "quote what i want" i'm not going to quote EVERY BLOODY POST am i? The user above me mentioned that llm was horrid, i looked at 3 threads and found that it wasn't particularly pleasant, i posted whta i considered the unpleasant posts that i found - nothing more, nothing less.

At NO POINT did i "promote my ill feelings"

As i said, when i originally looked at llm, i read the rules, and wasn't sure what to post, hence i left it alone.

I HAD NO ILL FEELINGS TOWARDS IT

Following the post by asshole i looked at llm again

And reported what i found that agreed with his post.

If i'd posted EVERY SINGLE POST from llm then i suspect this would take a fair amount of time and space....

And as for:

"To be honest Ched, the reasons that you would not have been welcomed with open arms in the LLM forum is that you post in forums that break the ethics of being a LLM manager"

My posting history should not matter a damn.

If i adhere to the rules then i should be accepted into llm. Simple as.

and "please have the good sense to not post in the LLM forum in the first place" - is an exceptional way of dealing with this!

I often manage with llm clubs. Therefore if i adhere to forum rules my posting history and posting style should not be questioned. Just because i have contributed to other forums should not mean i am banned from llm.

And finally, as to:

"It's comments like yours above, which keep this myth about the unfriendly LLM alive.

I've said it before and I will say it again. LLM forum is a far far far far friendlier place than GQ"

My comments were an observation, nothing more, i SPECIFICALLY left links to the threads i mentioned, so that people couild look at them and decide for themselves.

I'm sure llm is a far far friendlier place....if they deem you acceptable.

So, for the benefit of those who question my integrity;

I have no ill feeling towards llm

i have never posted there, so have not personally been harrased, or otherwise.

I question how new users are treated in llm

I am not saying the posts i looked at were representative of llm, just that they were the only posts i viewed

A posters history should not contribute to how a forum treats them.

I am not "keeping the myth alive" just merely providing some sort of evidence to support a previous post.

Sorry if i'm repeating this, but jimbo has taken it upon himself to assume that this is something of a personal vendetta against llm, it isn't, it's just that what happens in llm seems to be accepted, yet if it happens here it is criticised, all i want is consistency.

[Jimbokav1971]

Ched. Look. I'm gonna go slow. Not being funny, but it's become obvious that you don't know some or the rules/guidelines about posting in LLM.

1. The reason that the romania/bulgaria U21 players broke LLM rules was because he was unable to scout them so he could not sign them.

Cant'e be bothered to go over the rest as it's obvious that you will stick to your guns.

The thing you fail to grasp, (like so many others), is that LLM is not about managing a lower league team. It is about the way you play the game. When you work out what it is about you will see what I'm getting at.

[Ched]

Originally posted by Jimbokav1971:

Ched. Look. I'm gonna go slow. Not being funny, but it's become obvious that you don't know some or the rules/guidelines about posting in LLM.

1. The reason that the romania/bulgaria U21 players broke LLM rules was because he was unable to scout them so he could not sign them.

Cant'e be bothered to go over the rest as it's obvious that you will stick to your guns.

The thing you fail to grasp, (like so many others), is that LLM is not about managing a lower league team. It is about the way you play the game. When you work out what it is about you will see what I'm getting at.

1/ the user stated he WAS able to scout them.

So i'm not sure in what way your comment is at all valid?

As to:

"The thing you fail to grasp, (like so many others), is that LLM is not about managing a lower league team. It is about the way you play the game. When you work out what it is about you will see what I'm getting at"

I fully appreciate that it relates to HOW you play the game. Sorry if my mention of vauxhall was not specific, when i play with the motormen i adhere to the rules given at llm simply because i feel it is the most realistic way to manage.

I have NO PROBLEM WITH THIS ASPECT OF LLM

I object to how they treat new posters and how ACCORDIGN TO YOU "the reasons that you would not have been welcomed with open arms in the LLM forum is that you post in forums that break the ethics of being a LLM manager"

My posting hostory should not come into it, when i play a game as chelsea i play it in one way, when i play as vauxhall motors i play it in another way.

And as to:

"Cant'e be bothered to go over the rest as it's obvious that you will stick to your guns"

All i'm trying to do is back up my original post, all you seemed intent on doing originally was questioning my reasons for posting it.

[Jimbokav1971]

I guess I am questioning your reasons for posting.

[Klipdrift]

Let me just say that there are no LLM-rules.

The rules apply to the LLM-forum, the guidelines apply to the way you play the game.

There is a big difference in being accepted as a LLaMa by other LLaMa's on the one side and been accepted/respected in the LLM-forum on the other side.

If somebody accidentally wanders in the LLM-forum asking for tips on players or tactics most of "us" will kindly direct him to the right place without flaming of any kind.

If this person however continues posting without regard to the forum-rules he will be flamed, possibly.

It's as simple as that. But apparently people think differently about the LLM-forum.

[Klipdrift]

Ched: I had misread the OP's post. I told him I was mistaken and that I should have read it better. Did you notice that part?

[Guest]

Originally posted by Ched:

My posting hostory should not come into it, when i play a game as chelsea i play it in one way, when i play as vauxhall motors i play it in another way.

I'm afraid it does Ched, LLM isn't about playing one save in a particular manner & another totally differently.

You are either a LLaMa or you are not it is not a part time option.

As for the posting history it goes to credability, if you post in the editor or good players/tactic fora regulars to LLM are not going to be inclined to accept that you are playing with the same ethics that guide our style of play.

As I have said in another a good example is that you join a social club but find that you have very little in common with the bulk of the membership, would you really expect to feel welcome?

[Ched]

Originally posted by Klipdrift:

Ched: I had misread the OP's post. I told him I was mistaken and that I should have read it better. Did you notice that part?

I did notice it.

My point was that the user was treated with general suspicion rather than being given the benefit of the doubt (simlar to the way jimbo treated my previous posts...)

As i said, there is worse in GQ, it just seems to me that there is a general hostility within llm towards new users. As i said though, i took a SMALL sample, just the first three posts, hence if this is not representative of the rest of the forum, i appologise sincerely.

[Barnzy]

Thats a joke of course you can play each save differanty, I dont understand why you cant!

I know very little about the lower leagues and must use my scouts for transfers, but when I play as Liverpool its awhole differant game - I know the players and when I start the game I already have an idea of who I sign, I dont undestant why there is a problem with that.

[Ched]

Originally posted by Jimbokav1971:

I guess I am questioning your reasons for posting.

Well i did state specifically in one of my previous posts, but i guess you'd lost interest by about the 2nd point, so i'll reiterate (go i can't spell..):

- i posted because i was curious regarding the point raised by asshole (why can't he have a sensible name - it just makes my posts sound stupid).

- i took the first 3 posts and looked for things that supported his argument

NOTHING MORE

At no point did i let my fictional ill feeling toward llm come into anything.

For the sake of fairness i will do the same with GQ:

Jimbos argument is that LLM is a far...far friendlier place than GQ, hence i will take the first 3 threads and comment on any unpleasantness within:

1 - the use of the word prat to put down a pointless post, also the pointless post itself.

2 - nothing wrong here.

3 - nothing wrong here.

[Guest]

Originally posted by asshole182:

I think you need to check out the LLM forum. They flame and call names if you don't type with capital letters. It's a horrid forum in there, the people all seem so high and mighty.

You got flamed initially becuase you stated you had used the editor & asked for tips so the thread was rightly closed.

You then opened a new thread only bothering to substitute the team names in some clumsy attemp to hide your use of the editor & still you asked for tips.

If you continue to stick two fingers up to the rules of a given forum I'm a afraid a flaming is likley.

[Ched]

Originally posted by Ched:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jimbokav1971:

I guess I am questioning your reasons for posting.

Well i did state specifically in one of my previous posts, but i guess you'd lost interest by about the 2nd point, so i'll reiterate (go i can't spell..):

- i posted because i was curious regarding the point raised by asshole (why can't he have a sensible name - it just makes my posts sound stupid).

- i took the first 3 posts and looked for things that supported his argument

NOTHING MORE

At no point did i let my fictional ill feeling toward llm come into anything.

For the sake of fairness i will do the same with GQ:

Jimbos argument is that LLM is a far...far friendlier place than GQ, hence i will take the first 3 threads and comment on any unpleasantness within:

1 - the use of the word prat to put down a pointless post, also the pointless post itself.

2 - nothing wrong here.

3 - nothing wrong here. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> - My bad - point 3 was meant to read - nothing wrong until nostro opened his mouth

[Guest]

Ched have you read Asshole182's threads, they will explain why he was flamed & has little arguement to complain about it.

[Barnzy]

Also would like to point out that a "flaming" shouldnt be due to anyone - all thats needed is for someone to politly point out where the op has gone wrong and request the thread to be closed.

Or you could just ignore the post altogether

[Ched]

Originally posted by Barside:

Originally posted by Ched:

My posting hostory should not come into it, when i play a game as chelsea i play it in one way, when i play as vauxhall motors i play it in another way.

I'm afraid it does Ched, LLM isn't about playing one save in a particular manner & another totally differently.

You are either a LLaMa or you are not it is not a part time option.

As for the posting history it goes to credability, if you post in the editor or good players/tactic fora regulars to LLM are not going to be inclined to accept that you are playing with the same ethics that guide our style of play.

As I have said in another a good example is that you join a social club but find that you have very little in common with the bulk of the membership, would you really expect to feel welcome?

I think this pretty much some up the point i was trying to make. Why can't llm take each thread based on its individual merit?

By saying "You are either a LLaMa or you are not it is not a part time option" you are pretty much making any protests by jimbo that llm is a friendlier place sound laughable. Jimbo was trying (i assume) to make a constructive defence of llm, and all you've done is support people who see it as a hostile env for new users and those not deemed worthy.

[Ched]

Originally posted by Barside:

Ched have you read Asshole182's threads, they will explain why he was flamed & has little arguement to complain about it.

no i haven't as i've said all i did was look into LLM after he had made a moan.

I took the post on its own merit rather than looking into the posters history before deciding it was worthy.

[Klipdrift]

Barnzy, ofcourse you can play saves differently.

But LLaMa's don't play two different kind of saves. We always start in the lower leagues and try and build career from there.

That was the point Barside was making.

[Barnzy]

Sorry may have misunderstood, I read it as "Your eith LLM or your not"

[Klipdrift]

I would say you're either a LLaMa or you're not.

It's not forbidden to manage in the lower leagues without adhering to the LLM-guidelines.

Everybody's entitled to play the game the way they want.

[Barnzy]

You are either a LLaMa or you are not it is not a part time option.

Thats what I was taking issue with!

[Ched]

Originally posted by Klipdrift:

Barnzy, ofcourse you can play saves differently.

But LLaMa's don't play two different kind of saves. We always start in the lower leagues and try and build career from there.

That was the point Barside was making.

Again this is my point - There should not be LLama's and non-Llamas, there should be people who conform to forum rules and those who do not.

If i play a game in a particular manner, yet the game i am commenting on conforms to rules, why should i be treated with hostility?

It's a laughable form of discrimination, that just alienates potential members (which i suspect could be the whole point - nothing more than specualtion).

[Klipdrift]

It might be because I am not a native speaker that I am not making myself clear.

I personally use the term LLaMa for somebody who always plays according to the guidelines. Somebody that doesn't always do this I would call a Manager in the Lower Leagues (MaLLa?)

If somebody adheres to the forum-rules he is, in my opinion, most welcome to post in the LLM-forum.

I suspect most LLaMa's feel this way about it.

[Barnzy]

Originally posted by Klipdrift:

I would say you're either a LLaMa or you're not.

It's not forbidden to manage in the lower leagues without adhering to the LLM-guidelines.

Everybody's entitled to play the game the way they want.

I agree with that totally, the issue I haveis that I feel If I decide to come into the LLM forum and share my LLM experiances I shouldnt be abused/flammed for not playing that way 100% of the time.

[Guest]

Ched after reading my post I feel I didn't explain what I had in my head in the right words.

The 'you're either a llama or not' comment is in respect to those individuals who claim to play in an LLM style but continue to post in what are considered forbidden fora in respect to other saves they have running, such activities are going to make regulars sceptical of that person.

As for being hostile to new posters I've found nothing can be further from the truth. The requirement to a friendly welcome is that a new poster takes the time to read the stickies before they post that's all we can ask unfortunately too many people fail in this task.

Those that do & I include myself in that category are welcomed by others in the forum.

[Ched]

Originally posted by Klipdrift:

It might be because I am not a native speaker that I am not making myself clear.

I personally use the term LLaMa for somebody who always plays according to the guidelines. Somebody that doesn't always do this I would call a Manager in the Lower Leagues (MaLLa?)

If somebody adheres to the forum-rules he is, in my opinion, most welcome to post in the LLM-forum.

I suspect most LLaMa's feel this way about it.

Right, cleared that up, I agree with what you are saying, HOWEVER - this thread hits the nail on the head with regard to how new users are treated: here

After a users first post, a llama has gone out of his way to check into the users posting history in order to deem him worthy.

THIS SHOULD NOT HAPPEN

If the post conforms with forum rules - fine.

If it doesn't - by all means do as you wish with the guy.

Why "Also you need to stay away from T&T and GP&TG forums as you seem to be quite an active poster in those areas" is deemed acceptable is beyond me.

If i starte posting "you're a llama - therfore you're not welcome in GQ" i would be told to shut up by a mod in seconds - why is it acceptable for llamas to not allow other users to post where they want?

[Ackter]

Well, she turned me into a newt.

I got better.

[Jimbokav1971]

Right, cleared that up, I agree with what you are saying, HOWEVER - this thread hits the nail on the head with regard to how new users are treated: here

Because he didn't adhere to the flippin rules.

How many times do we have to say it. It's not flippin brain surgery.

1. READ THE RULES.

2. ADHERE TO THE RULES.

This guy had read the rules but just hadn't bothered to adhere to them.

FFS!

[Klipdrift]

Ched, the LLaMa you refer to has been made aware by a fellow LLaMa that the posting in those fora was a long time ago and that he should be given a "chance" in the forum.

I might have not been clear on this before but if you actively visit GPTG, T&TT and the EH creating update threads will still not be (very) acceptable in the LLM-forum. This is considered cheating as is being said in the forum-rules.

If somebody admits to using the editor he shouldn't post about it in the LLM-forum. Same goes for the other fora mentioned. If you use them, fine, don't come over to the LLM-forum to tell us about it.

[Ched]

Originally posted by Jimbokav1971:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Right, cleared that up, I agree with what you are saying, HOWEVER - this thread hits the nail on the head with regard to how new users are treated: here

Because he didn't adhere to the flippin rules.

How many times do we have to say it. It's not flippin brain surgery.

1. READ THE RULES.

2. ADHERE TO THE RULES.

This guy had read the rules but just hadn't bothered to adhere to them.

FFS! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ive read the rules (after your post) - NOWHERE DOES IT SAY THAT USERS ARE NOT ALLOWED TO POST IN OTHER FORUMS

It says you aren't allowed to use other peoples tactics, or edit the game, the user has AT NO POINT said that he has done any of that with his FC game.

So FFS jimbo, if you're going to correct me at least get it right.

as to any rules he may have broken - the only point i object to is that uncle ron looked into the posters history and told him not to post there anymore

My point is, that if users want to play one save in the style of llm, and another as they choose, it SHOULD NOT AFFECT HOW LLM POSTERS TREAT THEM AS LONG AS THEY DO NOT USE TACTICS OR EDITS IN THEIR LLM GAME.

[Ched]

Originally posted by Klipdrift:

Ched, the LLaMa you refer to has been made aware by a fellow LLaMa that the posting in those fora was a long time ago and that he should be given a "chance" in the forum.

I might have not been clear on this before but if you actively visit GPTG, T&TT and the EH creating update threads will still not be (very) acceptable in the LLM-forum. This is considered cheating as is being said in the forum-rules.

If somebody admits to using the editor he shouldn't post about it in the LLM-forum. Same goes for the other fora mentioned. If you use them, fine, don't come over to the LLM-forum to tell us about it.

I accept that if they post in LLM that they've used the editor or tactics then fair enough.

My point is that if they post in the editors or tactics forum for one save game, but approach llm management in a different way (as i do FFS) then they should not have their posting history looked into before they are "allowed" to post in llm.

People should be allowed to play the game as they want. If i want to play one game with john terry edited to be at bognor regis, it should not affect the save game where i play as a llama; and it should not affect the posts i make.

Individual posts should be evaluated on their own merit, not the posters history.

[Jimbokav1971]

So FFS jimbo, if you're going to correct me at least get it right.

Updates

At the Mods' Meeting of Sunday, April 25, 2004 it was decided after a lengthy debate that the moritorium on LLM Updates should be lifted for a trial period. As such updates will be allowed in the LLM Forum under the following conditions:

1) LLM updates SHOULD be started in the Lowest available league in any given Nation, single league nations - though not strictly speaking LLM - will be allowed

2) Updates should take the form of a short description of how your Team is doing. Game summaries should be avoided, but may be posted for Cup Finals, Playoff games and important games which have a direct bearing on your Team. eg, relegation deciders.

3) Only one update thread per month may be started, i.e., If you start an update on the 1st of April you won't be allowed to start another until the 1st of May - only one update ongoing at any time. This specifically includes "game crashed", "got sacked and started afresh" and any other excuse.

4) Mods will, at their discretion, close updates that appear to be "dead".

5) Any suggestion of non-LLM inpropriety will result in the thread being closed. Refer to LLM Guidelines for more information.

6) It goes without saying that there's no player naming, tactical discussion, and the rest of the acknowledged LLM Forum "Rules". The Spirit and Ethos of LLM should be adhered to, they are there to help you enjoy a "clean" game and not as a shortcut to an easy career. Guidelines are open to general interpretation, but the Mods are experienced enough to decide when interpretation of guidelines is being abused.

7) Only one thread per update, re-titled by a Mod if requested, eg. Change of Club. Any other thread concerning the same career will be closed.

8) The posting of Tables is actively discouraged.

Note: The trial has now been lifted and updates are a permanent fixture at LLM, although each condition must still be followed.

Note Mk II: A minimum of three seasons must be completed in order for a user to start an update thread. We do appreciate that it can take some users a long time to complete three seasons, so if you would like to start an update thread sooner, please email one of the mods for permission

If you want to start picking holes in how new users are treaten in LLM, perhaps you would do me the great service of using an example where the poster does not brak LLM forum rules.

[Ched]

I am starting to get sick of repeating myself, because you seem insistent on ignoring this, so:

as to any rules he may have broken - the only point i object to is that uncle ron looked into the posters history and told him not to post there anymore

Nowhere in the rules does it say - YOU ARE NOYL ALLOWED TO PLAY ONE SAVE GAME

Nowhere in the rules does it say - YOU CANNOT USE EDITORS OR TACTICS FOR OTHER SAVE GAMES

So why in gods name does the fact that the poster has, previous to starting as an llama, used either?

My point is not that he has or hasn't broken a rule. My point is that people are seen as either acceptable or not as llamas based on how they have played OTHER saves.

As i've said, i play several save games, my llm save i play in the spirit of a llama, as i feel it to be the most realistic, I DO NOT SEE HOW MY POSTING HISTORY WITH REGARD TO OTHER SAVES HAS ANY RELEVANCE AND I DO NOT SEE WHY LLAMAS FEEL IT IS ACCEPTABLE TO DISCRIMINTE ON SUCH INFORMATION.

Clear?

I have no problem with you personally, i juts feel you are hell bent on assuming this is some sort of personal vendetta rather than a look at whther the way llm operates is acceptable.

[Jimbokav1971]

If you don't like it, don't go in there, but stop trying to find a problem where none exists.

[Ched]

Originally posted by Jimbokav1971:

If you don't like it, don't go in there, but stop trying to find a problem where none exists.

Very mature.

[Guest]

It has been mentioned recently on the boards about posting in other fora & that it should be mentioned that it is out of bounds however it was decided that the by stating we do not accept the use of editors, TP updates, downloaded tactics or any form of tipping from other uses that such a stance should indicate that using the TT&T, GP&TP & EH forums is verboten.

I guess as it is not specifically the confusion is understandable.

[Klipdrift]

I personally could agree with you, Ched. It's possible to have different sort of saves.

However, it's also a matter of credibility.

If a new poster comes along and says that he usually downloads a tactic from the Tactics-forum and he goes there for advice, it's difficult to take that LLM-save seriously isn't it?

You don't forget tactical advise you pick up in the Tactics-forum do you? So you would implement these things in your LLM-save which in itself is not LLM.

That's the reason posters that have previously been active in that forum are being looked upon with a certain sort of cautiousness, so to say.

[Ched]

Originally posted by Barside:

It has been mentioned recently on the boards about posting in other fora & that it should be mentioned that it is out of bounds however it was decided that the by stating we do not accept the use of editors, TP updates, downloaded tactics or any form of tipping from other uses that such a stance should indicate that using the TT&T, GP&TP & EH forums is verboten.

I guess as it is not specifically the confusion is understandable.

Thank you!

Exactly the response i was looking for.

Which leads me to my next question:

Is it acceptable for me to play an llm game in the style of a llama, and post on th ellm forum - WITHOUT using anything against the rules. But at the same time, play a different save in any way i choose?

I fully appreciate that the use of tactics, edits etc in order to aid a LLM game is against forum rules.

However i feel that it is unnaceptable for my views to be derided because i have approached a different save in a different manner.

As i said earlier, i have a llm save, that i approach in a llama like manner, but i feel if i comment on it then i will just get idiots telling me i can't post anywhere else! (a flippant exageration but you get the idea)

[Jimbokav1971]

Have a look at this scenario, (just to prove a point).

Johnny Jackass has been a regular user of these forums for 2 or so years.

In the past he has been a regular contributor in The Editors Hideaway and the T&TGF and GPTG. He doesn't like GQ because it's fill of assholes. He's getting a bit bored with the forums and his game too. He used the editor to give Barrow £100M and increased their reputation to 780073589 (or whatever). Then he downloaded "insert name of ridiculous diabloesque tactic here" and won all the competitions before him over the next 15 years scoring 672393752 goals in the process and conceding 2 in that same time. Well he's bored now.

He looks around and decides that LLM looks fun.

After careful reading of the forum rules and guidelines he decides to start a new game. He doesn't need to go into the Editors Hideaway anyome because he's bored with that, and he doesn't need to go into the T&TGF anymore because he doesn't need to anymore because he has used FM scout to check the PA levels of all the young players in the league. He doesn't need to go into T&TGF anymore because he's already downloaded "insert name of ridiculous diabloesque tactic here" and will romp the league without a problem anyway.

He comes into LLM, posts without breaking rules and all is good............... NOT.

Questioning the ethics of LLM

The guys who post in here play to the Spirit and Ethics of LLM. It's up to the individual player how they play, they bought the game, it's up to them how they play it.

However...if you post in here, you play to the LLM Ethics. It's as simple as that. You post here, you accept the rules.

[asshole182]

Originally posted by Barside:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by asshole182:

I think you need to check out the LLM forum. They flame and call names if you don't type with capital letters. It's a horrid forum in there, the people all seem so high and mighty.

You got flamed initially becuase you stated you had used the editor & asked for tips so the thread was rightly closed.

You then opened a new thread only bothering to substitute the team names in some clumsy attemp to hide your use of the editor & still you asked for tips.

If you continue to stick two fingers up to the rules of a given forum I'm a afraid a flaming is likley. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Firstly, it wasn't a clumsy attempt, it was deliberate and obvious.

The thread was closed because i said i edited a teams place with another teams, so i removed that and made a new thread. If that's wrong then the rules are wrong.

In that forum i was called Mr Hole / Mr Ass / Mr Asshole / Mr 182 / Mr Wholeass / Mr Completeass and Mr Rectum. Because i mentioned i used an editor once so i could manage my local side. Then i asked someone to not act like a moderator and got flamed.

[Ched]

Originally posted by Jimbokav1971:

Have a look at this scenario, (just to prove a point).

Johnny Jackass has been a regular user of these forums for 2 or so years.

In the past he has been a regular contributor in The Editors Hideaway and the T&TGF and GPTG. He doesn't like GQ because it's fill of assholes. He's getting a bit bored with the forums and his game too. He used the editor to give Barrow £100M and increased their reputation to 780073589 (or whatever). Then he downloaded "insert name of ridiculous diabloesque tactic here" and won all the competitions before him over the next 15 years scoring 672393752 goals in the process and conceding 2 in that same time. Well he's bored now.

He looks around and decides that LLM looks fun.

After careful reading of the forum rules and guidelines he decides to start a new game. He doesn't need to go into the Editors Hideaway anyome because he's bored with that, and he doesn't need to go into the T&TGF anymore because he doesn't need to anymore because he has used FM scout to check the PA levels of all the young players in the league. He doesn't need to go into T&TGF anymore because he's already downloaded "insert name of ridiculous diabloesque tactic here" and will romp the league without a problem anyway.

He comes into LLM, posts without breaking rules and all is good............... NOT.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Questioning the ethics of LLM

The guys who post in here play to the Spirit and Ethics of LLM. It's up to the individual player how they play, they bought the game, it's up to them how they play it.

However...if you post in here, you play to the LLM Ethics. It's as simple as that. You post here, you accept the rules.

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

In what POSSIBLE way does this prove a point?

If a user accepts that the rules for llm are different and plays by those rules then there is no reason why he should be open to derision.

I will use myself as an example;

I am aware of top quality youth from the unemployed game i used.

I am aware of tactics that work with chelsea, psv, real, inter, everton, tranmer etc

Niether of these pieces of information have helped me in ANYWAY for my vauxhall save game.

Because a) ever banega for some strange reason doesn't want to sign for me,

and b) a short passing game played at high pace is one of the most hilarious things ive ever seen when vauxhall try and do it.

I maintain - if i play llm by llama rules, my history should not matter.

The quote you gave does state "if you post in here, you play to the LLM Ethics" however it does not state that you CAN NEVER PLAY IN ANY OTHER WAY.

When i play llm, i play to the llm ethics. that i all that should matter.

[Klipdrift]

Ched: To me, you're always welcome to start an LLM-save.

However, if you've been a regular poster in GPTG and the T&TF or if you admit to using downloaded tactics or scouting tools I won't take any of your posts very serious at first.

People will always wonder whether or not an achievement is based upon playing skill or downloading skills.

That's the whole deal.

[Ched]

Originally posted by asshole182:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Barside:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by asshole182:

I think you need to check out the LLM forum. They flame and call names if you don't type with capital letters. It's a horrid forum in there, the people all seem so high and mighty.

You got flamed initially becuase you stated you had used the editor & asked for tips so the thread was rightly closed.

You then opened a new thread only bothering to substitute the team names in some clumsy attemp to hide your use of the editor & still you asked for tips.

If you continue to stick two fingers up to the rules of a given forum I'm a afraid a flaming is likley. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Firstly, it wasn't a clumsy attempt, it was deliberate and obvious.

The thread was closed because i said i edited a teams place with another teams, so i removed that and made a new thread. If that's wrong then the rules are wrong.

In that forum i was called Mr Hole / Mr Ass / Mr Asshole / Mr 182 / Mr Wholeass / Mr Completeass and Mr Rectum. Because i mentioned i used an editor once so i could manage my local side. Then i asked someone to not act like a moderator and got flamed. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

if you object to names relating to arses then i suggest you don't behave like an idiot and call yourself asshole.

Grow up, use a sensible name, and then people will only call you an asshole if you act like one.

[Jimbokav1971]

Originally posted by asshole182:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Barside:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by asshole182:

I think you need to check out the LLM forum. They flame and call names if you don't type with capital letters. It's a horrid forum in there, the people all seem so high and mighty.

If you don't want to be called those names, why on earth did you create a profile with the name asshole 182 ?

You got flamed initially becuase you stated you had used the editor & asked for tips so the thread was rightly closed.

You then opened a new thread only bothering to substitute the team names in some clumsy attemp to hide your use of the editor & still you asked for tips.

If you continue to stick two fingers up to the rules of a given forum I'm a afraid a flaming is likley. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Firstly, it wasn't a clumsy attempt, it was deliberate and obvious.

The thread was closed because i said i edited a teams place with another teams, so i removed that and made a new thread. If that's wrong then the rules are wrong.

In that forum i was called Mr Hole / Mr Ass / Mr Asshole / Mr 182 / Mr Wholeass / Mr Completeass and Mr Rectum. Because i mentioned i used an editor once so i could manage my local side. Then i asked someone to not act like a moderator and got flamed. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

[Ched]

Originally posted by Klipdrift:

Ched: To me, you're always welcome to start an LLM-save.

However, if you've been a regular poster in GPTG and the T&TF or if you admit to using downloaded tactics or scouting tools I won't take any of your posts very serious at first.

People will always wonder whether or not an achievement is based upon playing skill or downloading skills.

That's the whole deal.

I suppose this is the best i can ask for. I still feel that looking into peoples posting history is exceptionally cynical, but what the hell. The mods clearly don't care, and i can't see llamas becoming more trusting any time soon (or so is the impression i am left with following this discusion) so screw it, i'm done arguing.

[Glyn]

Originally posted by asshole182:

The thread was closed because i said i edited a teams place with another teams, so i removed that and made a new thread. If that's wrong then the rules are wrong.

It was also closed because you were asking someone else how to play your game. In both threads. That's called tipping, which is not what LLM is about.