These forums

[Bodis]

Originally posted by bigdj1988:

ok while i agree that bullish behavior and personal atacks are nto aceptable you have allway's got to think about your product and and it seems to me you guy's are getting a lot of stick becouse of the quality of FM07 which being a great game it did came out with a couple of bug's but looking back into it those bug's compared to the ones in FM08 are nothing. You guy's have to realise that we pay what £30 for a product that clearly isn't finished and could do with some more nursing! Evryone can see that the game would be great if it was properly finished. SI put their name behind this product and your getting the reaction in the forum's to the product you gave out. now your thinking of changing the forum rules becouse of destructive criticism, well there aren't going to be many people willing to do some good criticism if they all are getting anoyed with the bugs in the game! That's what i think at least!

The perceived quality of the game is besides the point here, its how people are treated which is being discussed in this thread. Destructive criticism is one thing, but abuse and derogatory remarks is what we really need to weed out.

[Ched]

Originally posted by Solskjaer:

Here are my thoughts

<LI> Put a sticky up which has an update on what the status of play is with the major bugs because 90% of posts moan about the same thing. Give Si's position on it, For example say its not an issue and wont be getting fixed or that it is currently getting sorted.

<LI>On a similar note to my 1st point, I feel all the venom is caused by SI denying a bug when its clear for all to see that there is a major problem

<LI> Put the forum in to a tree format so that the main body of the forum isnt clogged up with the same rubbish. For example have a bug or complaint thread with more sub threads within them.

I know these ideas wont work 100% and people will post regardless but I think everyone will be alot calmer and less abusive if they feel thay are being listened to. Remember the customer is always right. Everyone must know how some people feel, dont tell my you lot arnt shouting like mad when you are made to hold on the phone for 40 for a call centre and they cant speak english or donbt have a clue what your talking about.

1) excellent point

2) i hope that they genuinely believe there aren't problems and don't just deny everything, but only they know so hey-ho.

3) There is already a whole sub forum dedicated to bugs, the main issue is that people don't post there, they post here.

[Kris]

tbf, in software development, the customer isn't always right (quicte the opposite in most cases )

[Jimbokav1971]

Guys, I know you all have a lot on your plate at the moment and it's coming up to Christmas, but unless you pull your finger out soon and do something, (rather than talk about doing something), there will be very little that is worthwhile left in this forum to moderate.

The standard of threads is just degenerating every day and the only moderating that seems to get done is for serious rule breaches.

At this rate, by the time you do anything it will be too late. Just look at threads on the front page of this forum and ask yourself is that really what you want in this forum ?

[Michael F]

ill second that Jimbo

[FrazT]

Agreed- this particular thread was opened nearly 3 months ago and whilst we perhaps couldnt expect some actions till after the demo, game and first patch were released, it is not unreasonable to expect some response and or timetable from SI on their plans for the forums. Clearly more and more of the regulars are turning off and that is surely not what the forums are about?

[Ackter]

We need Glyn to start training up some new mods.

[Michael F]

i nominate Ackter & Jimbo for GQ

[Ackter]

There'd be no-one left...

[Jimbokav1971]

I'm not a good choice. I couldn't hold my tongue I'm afraid.

[Ched]

Originally posted by Ackter:

There'd be no-one left...

lol would it be forum genocide?

[Oz]

What we all need is a good old fashioned Kitty Outing.

[The_Anecdotalist]

Originally posted by Michael Foster:

i nominate Ackter & Jimbo for GQ

Seconded. And Amaroq too

[fluffy_sheep2]

Ackter gets enough grief as it is, imagine if he was a mod! lol.

I'd nominate Amaroq, if he wanted to do it.

[ArcticFish]

Originally posted by Kris:

tbf, in software development, the customer isn't always right (quicte the opposite in most cases )

The customer is 'always right' in very few businesses, software development is not really an exception in that sense. What the saying means is that in order to close a sale, the seller has to satisfy the customer and take their wishes into consideration. I.e. either modify the product to suit the customer, or at least explain politely why the product can't be modified.

In our case this translates to: 'modify product' = iron out bugs that people complain about;

and 'explain why can't/shouldn't modify' = explain why the behaviour is realistic and not a bug.

Generally, SI have done (IMO) a very good job getting rid of bugs in previous versions. (I don't have FM08 so I can't comment on the latest version.) However, lately the second part is not being taken care of equally well: I feel that SI people don't come to these forums as much as they did in the past to reply to users complaints.

There's always going to be a loud minority that will keep complaining about anything, and another minority that will defend SI no matter what. But in the past the happy medium between these extremes was the majority and any valid criticism was addressed relatively quickly by an SI employee, explaining the issue. Nowadays it seems like SI don't respond that much anymore and even the valid complaints tend to devolve into pointless shouting matches, making the forums into a hostile place.

(Maybe I have a rosy view of how it used to be, but I that's how I remember it...)

So in a nut shell: I think it would help a lot if SI employees posted more in GQ, as for some reason authority seems to matter: a reasonable explanation by an SI member does much more than the same explanation by a random forum member.

(Specifically, I'm looking at you, Marc Vaughan! You used to be so helpful and informative here, and you posted a lot. You're still active, but in ... 'Handheld discussion' forum ?! We need you here in GQ, Marc!! PaulC is posting here, but he can't do it all on his own... )

[JordanC]

So in a nut shell: I think it would help a lot if SI employees posted more in GQ, as for some reason authority seems to matter: a reasonable explanation by an SI member does much more than the same explanation by a random forum member.

I agree completely. For some reason, that Sports Interactive avatar carries a lot of weight when replying to posts.

Sometimes it's not even about detailed, informative replies. A lot of people just want to know that they're being listened to and get confirmation that someone heard them.

[Jimbokav1971]

Here's a little suggestion as regards to Mods, (and in particular Mod's in GQ).

Being a Mod seems to be a pretty thankless and onerous task at the best of times and in the most well behaved of forums. Trying to describe what the job entails in GQ on a day to day basis would be ebough to put anyone off doing the job forever.

How would SI feel about asking Mod's to do a job on a trial period for a short period of time? Moderating GQ I would imagine is a prett daunting task at the moment and it's not really something that will change in the short term as it will take considrable time fpr the effects of these increased moderators to "kick in".

If SI are having problems recruiting Mods for GQ, (I don't know that they are but I would imagine this to be the case), then maybe a shorter term might encourage some of the people that they might be interested in to actually give it a go rather than being put off by the sheer enormity of the problem.

There have been some excellent people nominatedv by existing users in this thread, (of which I am not one), but I would also like some of the older members to be approached and enticed back.

I am particularly thinking of someone like, (but not exclusive to), gavnoble. Now gav doesn't post in here anywhere near as much as he used to, and shouldn't be forced to come back, but maybe if the likes of some existing experienced posters were "encouraged" to return with the knowledge of an increased number of Mods, then they might be more willing to return.

Even any small amount of time they spent in the forum in the role of Mod would have some impact on the forum as a whole and it might prove to have a knock-on, snowballing effect.

There are other more regular users who would be excellent choces as Mods, but I think that there are other options. Why not pick someone who has been EXTREMELY crtical in the game, but who has done so in a reasonable and articulate manner.

Many of these seem to have stopped posting. This might be used as a bit of an incentive to lure some constructive posters back in.

[Michael F]

So any news on how far you have got with this? Have you decided on what you are going to do or are you still thinking of what to do, as this has been going for nearly 3 months, surely Miles has been thinking before he posted this thread on 22nd Sept.

Even if its an official response saying yes we have decided and we will let you know in the near future or we have a few ideas but are thinking of where to go next etc.

[Jopo12]

A much more stricter approach would be nice. There are too many topics that change to a flame war just because nobody controls what is allowed to slip in. But those new mods should absolutely be people who can view things from each others point of view and be very mature to calm people down and solve problems. I have myself seen moderators choosing their side and getting in the flaming without nobody actually first insulting them or anything. That really shouldn't be what moderators do? They should be above this.

But it is hard of course because everybody thinks differently and people don't understand each other, and yet many aren't patient enough to find out what others mean and only start slating and abusing them. And it should be made clear what is appropriate to post, especially to those who don't allow some things, like criticising FM. Now nobody does anything to punish those who act childishly and don't let others to post in peace about what they think. Too often a thread goes like one criticises FM, and people start telling he is wrong without any proper discussion or without trying to see what thread starter means. Everybody should really learn to respect others better. But now a own forum for each other to post could be the best option as too many aren't giving a damn what others think especially if they don't agree. And nobody is to keep that abusing and "selfishing" away. Topics only get closed and I think the started suffers usually the most, because he can't discuss about things which he mostly should be able to or has valid arguments about. Those abusers are winning, but why they are fighting against everyone who wants to help developing FM?

[heathxxx]

Have been having a good read through the thread started by Miles and I agree that there needs to be some changes.

Many have suggested more Mods, more work by Mods, more input by SI... i could go on, with lots of quotes, but no need if you have also read this thread.

As far as I am concerned, SI have provided us all with an excellent service in which to post comments and discuss their series of games.

My suggestion, if it's not too late for consideration, is that the more senior members of these forums should be a little more vigilant and assist the moderators.

Although I have no time or desire to be a moderator myself, I would be happy to be considered a "senior" member of the community and happy, as I am, to provide assistance to other users who require help and advice.

I think it is up to us, the forum users to assist in the running of the forums. When we see stupid or abusive posts, we should post ourselves to advise, in as polite a way as possible, that such posts will not be tolerated. If the user causing problems persists, then we can always report them.

Generally, alot of the posters that are abusive to the extreme, are generally ignored and I imagine will get bored enough and not return. Something that happens with other forums I'm involved with. They post rubbish/abuse, answer a couple of times, then you never hear from them again.

If we are all more vigilant in spotting problem posts, then we can all help clear the forums more.

[Kain]

Originally posted by Jimbokav1971:

Here's a little suggestion as regards to Mods, (and in particular Mod's in GQ).

Being a Mod seems to be a pretty thankless and onerous task at the best of times and in the most well behaved of forums. Trying to describe what the job entails in GQ on a day to day basis would be ebough to put anyone off doing the job forever.

How would SI feel about asking Mod's to do a job on a trial period for a short period of time? Moderating GQ I would imagine is a prett daunting task at the moment and it's not really something that will change in the short term as it will take considrable time fpr the effects of these increased moderators to "kick in".

If SI are having problems recruiting Mods for GQ, (I don't know that they are but I would imagine this to be the case), then maybe a shorter term might encourage some of the people that they might be interested in to actually give it a go rather than being put off by the sheer enormity of the problem.

There have been some excellent people nominatedv by existing users in this thread, (of which I am not one), but I would also like some of the older members to be approached and enticed back.

I am particularly thinking of someone like, (but not exclusive to), gavnoble. Now gav doesn't post in here anywhere near as much as he used to, and shouldn't be forced to come back, but maybe if the likes of some existing experienced posters were "encouraged" to return with the knowledge of an increased number of Mods, then they might be more willing to return.

Even any small amount of time they spent in the forum in the role of Mod would have some impact on the forum as a whole and it might prove to have a knock-on, snowballing effect.

There are other more regular users who would be excellent choces as Mods, but I think that there are other options. Why not pick someone who has been EXTREMELY crtical in the game, but who has done so in a reasonable and articulate manner.

Many of these seem to have stopped posting. This might be used as a bit of an incentive to lure some constructive posters back in.

Seems like a decent idea. Having someone mod on a trial basis would be a good idea for both sides; the user could decide whether they want to carry on, and SI/other mods could decide whether they think that user's doing a decent enough job to carry on doing it. The first month or two moderating somewhere, particularly somewhere as busy as this, can be a little nerve-wracking at first, and its usually during the third month when you can see how the person's going to be long-term.

[dafuge]

Originally posted by Michael Foster:

So any news on how far you have got with this? Have you decided on what you are going to do or are you still thinking of what to do, as this has been going for nearly 3 months, surely Miles has been thinking before he posted this thread on 22nd Sept.

Even if its an official response saying yes we have decided and we will let you know in the near future or we have a few ideas but are thinking of where to go next etc.

Ter has hinted elsewhere that there are some major changes in the pipeline, so something is being done about it.

[heathxxx]

I honestly would'nt blame SI if they decided to close the forums - not that I think they will though.

As a company, they would be quite within their rights to shut down these forums, posting only occasional info and updates via their main site and perhaps via the many fans sites.

This "minimal" interaction with the punters is what alot of other companies do. If the forums continue as they are, then there will always be countless problematic posts.

To SI's credit, they do actually care enough to respond and interact with their customers. Miles doing so with another thread on Christmas Day is a casing point.

I enjoy using the forums. To share gaming experiences and solutions with other gamers. It would be a great shame to lose them. There are always going to be issues with computer games, and constructive criticism is always a good thing. It's gone too far with the rants and whines for me though. So personally, I now have a large "ignore" list and only interact with people in genuine need of help or advice or to simply talk about playing the game.

KUTGW SI... it IS appreciated by the majority in my opinion.

[Ched]

Originally posted by heathxxx:

To SI's credit, they do actually care enough to respond and interact with their customers. Miles doing so with another thread on Christmas Day is a casing point.

QUOTE]

Not sure i agree with this. They respond to threads where they know they can "win" an argument, they certainly don't respond to all threads where there is not an easy answer available.

A thread i created some weeks ago has been ignored by all of the SI staff (with the exception of ter) and has breen brought to their attention (again by ter) and has still been completely ignored by the people who know the answers. I don't expect responses to everything, but this thread has received nothing but positive support from people, was in no way abusive or aggressive, and yet has been treated the same as many of the idiotic threads.

All i wanted to know was why these things were left and if they would ever be fixed, and yet SI just decided to ignore me, this is why many people moan about the lack of interaction.

[Jimbokav1971]

Ched. If Ter has responded in your thread, (and you have said that hge has), then you haven't been ignored at all never mind about completely ignored.

I know that it's frustrating when there are issues that are important to you that remain in the game, and even more so when you post a decent post and don't get a response. I would say that there has been a significant decrease in general of SI posting in this forum this year, and in particular since the patch came out.

With that in mind, is it reasonable to expect every reasonable post to receive a response from SI?

I think in past issues the answer was..... probably.

It's simply just not the case anymore I'm afraid, (for whatever reason). A lot of the guys, (I'm guessing), posted in here on their own time and to be honest they have probaly just had enough of all the abuse and tyranical rants, (I'm not saying that you did either of these).

They get paid to do a job and for a great many of the SI staff, there will be no part of their job description that involves them coming in here to deal with the sort of tripe that we currently see on a pretty regular basis. We have been spoiled for a number of years by a committed and dedicated team who have delivered time and time again.

This time their product was found wanting, (in my opinion), and maybe it's part frustration and part embarrassment that keeps them away still.

I'm afraid to say that the expectation that SI will respond to every reasonable post in here is no longer a realistic one.

Sorry.

[Jimbokav1971]

I didn't mean every reasonable post. I of course meant every reasonable thread .

[Ched]

Originally posted by Jimbokav1971:

Ched. If Ter has responded in your thread, (and you have said that hge has), then you haven't been ignored at all never mind about completely ignored.

I know that it's frustrating when there are issues that are important to you that remain in the game, and even more so when you post a decent post and don't get a response. I would say that there has been a significant decrease in general of SI posting in this forum this year, and in particular since the patch came out.

With that in mind, is it reasonable to expect every reasonable post to receive a response from SI?

I think in past issues the answer was..... probably.

It's simply just not the case anymore I'm afraid, (for whatever reason). A lot of the guys, (I'm guessing), posted in here on their own time and to be honest they have probaly just had enough of all the abuse and tyranical rants, (I'm not saying that you did either of these).

They get paid to do a job and for a great many of the SI staff, there will be no part of their job description that involves them coming in here to deal with the sort of tripe that we currently see on a pretty regular basis. We have been spoiled for a number of years by a committed and dedicated team who have delivered time and time again.

This time their product was found wanting, (in my opinion), and maybe it's part frustration and part embarrassment that keeps them away still.

I'm afraid to say that the expectation that SI will respond to every reasonable post in here is no longer a realistic one.

Sorry.

I specifically said "ignored by the people who know the answers" i.e. not someone responsible for producing skins. So i'm not entirely sure what relevance to my post your opening paragraph has.

Nor did i say i expected every reasonable post to recieve a comment - however, i am left with the feeling that if i'd titled my post "WTF this game cheats" then i WOULD have gotten a response, whether it would have been a productive response or not is another matter entirely. I've started several threads that i feel have been reasonable and have had mixed degrees of response, however i feel that many of the threads that question WHY certain things happen are ignored as SI are either lacking in a response or they do not want to openly admit that they do things because they make financial sense rather than merely trying to please us. Nothing more than speculation on my part btw.

As to the decrease in SI input, i suspect that you've hit the nail on the head, they probably don't want to answer any pointed questions about why things are as they are as it may leave them in a bad light if they were to say something akin to "new features sell more than a bug-less product", but i am doing nothing more than speculating and am digressing into the cynical.

As to "they have probaly just had enough of all the abuse and tyranical rants" surely the purpose of this thread was to solve this, and yet nothing has happened (significantly at least) in the last few months to change this, yet again creating more frustration for the people who posted here, who are YET AGAIN feeling ignored, and questioning why they bother coming on these forums at all (my opinion - not passing this off as fact at all).

[Jimbokav1971]

Ched. Part om me agrees with you if I'm honest, but part of me also sees it from their point of view. This forum is part of a group of forums that are "The SI Community forums", in name only. They are not a community now and are really just an advertising/information tool for SI. Maybe until the likes of you and me start seeing it as such the status quo will remain the same.

Anyway, I'm trying to post with the ethos that "if you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem", and trying to be far more constructive than I have been in the past, (especially to the eegits), but I must admit to feeling like I'm attempting to bail out a battleship with a sieve at the moment.

[Ackter]

Have been away from these forums for about a week, can't say I missed anything.

[Ched]

Something odd i've just noticed;

a recent thread (mentioning the motherwell keeper) was deleted. Not just locked, but actually gotten rid of, with no record of it on the forum nor in my "recent posts" page. Now, not for one minute am i suggesting that the thread was anything more than an exercise in bad taste, but why remove that thread and yet leave MANY more abusive or inappropriate threads littering the forum?

The only other instance where i've noted this happen was the thread where miles accused (or at least implied, before i upset him) a poster of piracy before it was pointed out that the euro cup thing affected real games as well. I initially put that down to my dodgy memory and thought i'd just forgotten where the thread was.

So my point? Why not just get rid of ALL the garbage, rather than just the stuff that looks bad?

Appologies if i've made any unfair assumptions here, just stating what it looks like from my point of view.

[Kain]

I would guess its to avoid possible accusations of removing any thread criticizing the game. There's already some people who seem to think threads criticizing FM get closed, while needless ones praising it remain open; actually removing the threads would make it so much worse.

[dafuge]

I think a locked thread is quite useful, it lets the users of the forum know what isn't acceptable. It also helps to keep up the presence of the moderators of the forum.

[birdy123]

Locked threads are good for that, but when in gets to the stage that there are several locked threads on similar topics, they should start being deleted.

Also, an FAQ should be added to the top of this forum, with links to threads that could be of use, similar to GPTG with this or this.

[Jopo12]

Originally posted by Ackter:

Have been away from these forums for about a week, can't say I missed anything.

The Master has spoken...

That was an absolutely magnificent thing to hear, maybe you could tell us more about your doings and feelings so everybody here could feel better? It is so nice and helpful to read THAT valuable people telling what they think of inferior folk. Thank you for your great contribution.

[Ched]

Originally posted by dafuge:

I think a locked thread is quite useful, it lets the users of the forum know what isn't acceptable. It also helps to keep up the presence of the moderators of the forum.

In which case why delete any threads?

Although judging from recent forum contributions, there were several threads made about the motherwell keeper after the first one was locked and left visible, hence, while in theory a locked thread should show people what not to do, in practice the sort of people who will post a pointless thread are the sort who won't look at a locked thread...

[Ackter]

You're welcome.

[Ched]

Originally posted by Ackter:

You're welcome.

Well he's got a point, it was an utterly pointless post.

Probably falls under the "pointless pithy posts" (to quote what miles is trying to get rid of) and i'd be willing to bet that many other posters would have been pulled up over it...

I'm not happy with the state of these forums, but is posting MORE pointless threads really any way to behave?

[Ackter]

It's not a pointless post at all, it's a very weighted point about the quality of threads on the forums these days.

[Ched]

Originally posted by Ackter:

It's not a pointless post at all, it's a very weighted point about the quality of threads on the forums these days.

If your original post was "a very weighted point" then by that logic surely your second post of "you're welcome" was an "elegantly calculated response to a disgruntled post, which positively contributed to the forum".

Stop with the garbage, your first post was nothing but a moan, it was in no way constructive and was, in fact, one of the things that many people (i did think you were one of those people...) are trying to get rid of from these forums.

Yes the quality of threads has degenerated, but in what POSSIBLE way can posting "Have been away from these forums for about a week, can't say I missed anything" help?

If you have nothing of use to say, why say anything at all?

I'm not trying to start an argument here, it's just that many other poeple get pulled up over pointless posts (or if you feel your original post had a point; non-specific winges) and yet one of the supposed more useful members of the forum is behaving in exactly the same way.

[dafuge]

Originally posted by Ched:

In which case why delete any threads?

I was always under the impression that threads that had serious legal implications were deleted, I didn't see the thread in question so I can't really comment on that particular case.

[Ched]

Originally posted by dafuge:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ched:

In which case why delete any threads?

I was always under the impression that threads that had serious legal implications were deleted, I didn't see the thread in question so I can't really comment on that particular case. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The last time i'd seen the thread it was only along the lines of "player x died irl, can players die in FM" - distasteful, but in no way legally dubious. As to the one where miles accused the guy of piracy...well i can see why they'd want rid of that.

[Ackter]

It was both weighted and specific - I just didn't feel the need to be blindingly obvious.

[Ched]

Originally posted by Ackter:

It was both weighted and specific - I just didn't feel the need to be blindingly obvious.

Yes of course it was....

If you feel that posts like yours are useful then it leaves me astounded that you DON'T like the current state of the fourms...it's full of moans along those lines.

Some of us try and be more constructive.

Personally, i'd have enquired as to why the forums were still in this state, when things were going to be changed and what was being done. If i had any suggestions myself i would have included them. But if you feel "Have been away from these forums for about a week, can't say I missed anything" is useful then my posts are probably wasted.

[Ackter]

Ah I see what you're missing. I've gone in to plenty of detail through out this thread already. There's little point in repeating myself, so instead I'm alluding to earlier points using simple and short sentences.

[Ched]

Originally posted by Ackter:

I've gone in to plenty of detail through out this thread already.

...which begs the question, what is the point in "alluding to earlier points"?? Granted my last 6 posts are probably even more pointless....

It just seems that the forum consists of useful posts and the chaff that just gets in the way, which personally i would describe your original (and our sebsequent) posts as.

But whatever, clearly you beleive yourself beyond reproach and i'm sure that no convincing from me will make you change your mind, so i'll leave this and stop cluttering this thread with more useless moans.

[Jopo12]

I feel sorry that people like Ackter are acting and thinking they are better than many others, but they are only not strong and smart enough to realize that they are doing exactly as stupid things as they claim others do. Yet they don't get punished for it, why? Myself I've had faaaaar more problems with people who attack people who have something to complain in FM than with those who complain for example.

It is ironic that these people who talk about forum quality are making those forums worse themselves without even seeing it. But I guess it is okay if The Mighty Ackter makes fun of others and disses people, but if somebody gets angry because of it, they get yellow cards and bans. I'm not SI's sweetie or anything so I am judged much harder, but yet my self esteem is that good that I don't have an urge to mock others and announce my own superiority every time somebody is thinking differently and I've got the chance to be better and boost my own confidence. Really sad it is .

[Ackter]

There was absolutely nothing wrong with my first post, but for whatever reason you've taken issue to it and that's what's caused the last few posts.

[birdy123]

You have blown this all out of proportion ffs. Ackter was just saying that absolutely nothing had changed on the forums since he had been away, which is a fair point. He wasn't making fun of anyone or "dissing" anyone, stop making this something that it's not; picking a fight for no reason.

[Jimbokav1971]

Originally posted by Jopo12:

I feel sorry that people like Ackter are acting and thinking they are better than many others, but they are only not strong and smart enough to realize that they are doing exactly as stupid things as they claim others do. Yet they don't get punished for it, why? Myself I've had faaaaar more problems with people who attack people who have something to complain in FM than with those who complain for example.

It is ironic that these people who talk about forum quality are making those forums worse themselves without even seeing it. But I guess it is okay if The Mighty Ackter makes fun of others and disses people, but if somebody gets angry because of it, they get yellow cards and bans. I'm not SI's sweetie or anything so I am judged much harder, but yet my self esteem is that good that I don't have an urge to mock others and announce my own superiority every time somebody is thinking differently and I've got the chance to be better and boost my own confidence. Really sad it is .

Maybe you should take some of that on board yourself.

[gavnoble]

Some people need to reduce their caffeine intake!!!

Personally I agreed with Ackter's first point, that nothing has changed.

For me I think this thread has perhaps run its course as people are making the same points over and over again. Forme it's time it was locked and that SI began to implement their changes in order to try and get this place moving again.