These forums

[Barnzy]

The problem with posts being deleted is that you get those post asking where the post is gone, just clutters up the forum and creates more work for the mods. Although maybe a short ban if someone has had a thread deleted could be used to combat that ie 1-2 hours

[dudester]

Originally posted by Kriss:

Ched there aren't any grey areas the rules and guidelines are quite specific.

It's important to note that some are guidelines only and where there's any debate on their meaning it usually just needs a search to uncover previous debate which clarifies things.

My point was that there actually seems to be a desire for a forum for LLM type managers which doesn't adhere to the LLM forum ethos.

Therefore instead of this constantly recurring discourse, wouldn't it be better to petition for such a forum.

I would like a forum such as this while I do adhere to most llm guidelines i like to edit the database and put in my own team in the lowest league and attempt to rise to greatness.

[Ter]

why not have a dedicated "Jokes" forum, so the budding commedians (here) Can all **** off to one place, and stop filling the forum with tripe that's about as funny as contracting aids.

That is what the Off Topic Discussion forum is for, although to a certain degree there is no tripe allowed there either.

[Michael F]

Originally posted by Ackter:

With tactics, as long as you're not downloading someone else's tactic and just blindly using it, I really don't see the problem.

If it was a problem then LLMers would only be allowed to play one save game every version, otherwise they'd be using knowledge they'd gained from a previous save game or have to do the last part of your post.

All that tactical knowledge will come from somewhere, and IRL a lot of the basics come from coaching badges and courses - and I see very little difference between that and reading a few tactical theories by wwfan or rashidi etc.

Downloading a tactic and using it is clearly a bit out, but using gained knowledge about tactics from other sources really shouldn't be.

I pretty much agree with Ackter here. Most of the time tactics need to be adapted depending on the team you select, the team selection of the opposition, weather, pitch conditions

etc etc so aslong as you dont download i dont see the problem.

Anotehr question for LLM people, I do data updates for FM WeeGiE so regularly visit the editors forum. If i do data updates but use the normal 8.0.1 database if i wanted to play LLM, would people not let take me seriously as i visit the editors forum? (obv i dont look at CA & PA in the editor before anyone says)

[Kriss]

Anotehr question for LLM people, I do data updates for FM WeeGiE so regularly visit the editors forum. If i do data updates but use the normal 8.0.1 database if i wanted to play LLM, would people not let take me seriously as i visit the editors forum? (obv i dont look at CA & PA in the editor before anyone says)

No doubt some would view you with more than normal suspicion, but explaining your situation should resolve that. People can always look at what you actually post in that forum.

The LLM rules state use of the editor is forbidden but you'd expect that to mean in conjunction with your save game rather a totally seperate activity.

Still though, as so many before you, you don't seem to see that LLM is more what you are than what you do.

If you are LLM by nature you won't be doing those things which LLM expressly forbids anyway

[Michael F]

Originally posted by Kriss:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Anotehr question for LLM people, I do data updates for FM WeeGiE so regularly visit the editors forum. If i do data updates but use the normal 8.0.1 database if i wanted to play LLM, would people not let take me seriously as i visit the editors forum? (obv i dont look at CA & PA in the editor before anyone says)

No doubt some would view you with more than normal suspicion, but explaining your situation should resolve that. People can always look at what you actually post in that forum.

The LLM rules state use of the editor is forbidden but you'd expect that to mean in conjunction with your save game rather a totally seperate activity.

Still though, as so many before you, you don't seem to see that LLM is more what you are than what you do.

If you are LLM by nature you won't be doing those things which LLM expressly forbids anyway </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Cheers for that Kriss, ive been doing data updates for years (i know they are against the rules of LLM) but if i used the defalt 8.0.1 db then it would be ok. I still think viewing posting history to see if they have posted in other forums is slightly harsh (although i agree with Jimbo doing it to avoid replying to idiots which is a seperate issue) i think as long as you use the default db and play to the rules of LLM then people shouldnt jump on your back.

[smass]

Hopefully SI will update these antiquated forums to provide more functionality. If that happens I think there should be an interstitial page with the rules and specific terms to accept before they can enter the LLM part or perhaps it should be read-only to those who haven't passed some sort of milestone. Then hopefully anyone who doesn't share the attitude of so many in that forum and blithely plays their game won't be able to post in a way that may cause offence.

Personally I find the seriousness with which people approach the game a little too precious at times, but I wouldn't mock anyone since it's no more silly than any other hobby. But it is just a hobby. Saying "LLM is more what you are than what you do" isn't the kind of thinking that can reasonably be expected from people who just want to try playing with something other than a top side. And when they want that experience the LLM forum is the best place to go. They may just want try the game from a different perspective however not have their soul examined.

Although I may not post much in any of the forums, I visit every day and love reading through people's experiences with the game and picking up new ideas. It used to be a quick visit to the forum would give you a fresh outlook on the game and make it seem new even if you'd played 20 seasons. I've read the LLM rules and enjoyed playing the LLM way, but I made the decision never to post in the LLM forum. I knew that eventually I would be drawn into defending myself or others who are subjected to this sneering attitude that is so pervasive, though certainly not just in LLM. I knew that I wouldn't be able to help myself in replying if some of these insults were directed at me because, quite frankly, if one of those forum members said it to me in person I'd take them to pieces. No one likes to lose face, which seems to be the main reason behind most of the negative exchanges. It's pretty daft when you think how inconsequential it is.

This is one of the recent threads that I've found quite irksome and I know you're all familiar with the OP. I realise that he wound a lot of people up and didn't exactly endear himself to anyone, but he started a genuinely positive thread and look at the responses he got. It's just playground petulance. He even had people reply to tell him they were ignoring him.

Someone asked: Why should someone be immune from a particular persons anger if they have failed to take the time to read the rules? Because you should do as you would be done by. Treat people with respect for no other reason than because you can. Others will follow. You don't need to search for a reason to act with decency. It's a community forum after all, whereas it's made to sound like a competition to see who can be the most obnoxious. Responding with senseless intolerance and contempt isn't going to make people any more considerate. These people are as easily ignored as they are encouraged.

It was pretty brave of Miles to post what he did really. I'm not sure the frontmen of many businesses would dare rock the boat with so many longterm customers and just leave the community to fester in its misery. I just hope these forums aren't lost to those who demand respect but are only willing to pay it to those they feel are worthy. I'll end this hideously long post now by saying I hope I haven't upset anyone with it. That was not my intention and I only referenced LLM since that was the way this thread has gone, but my point within the context of Miles' original post was that most of us are culpable. If anyone cares enough to reply please don't be offended if I don't post again.

[Rabbitman]

When I first frequented the LLM forums after I bought FM 2005, I broke a couple of rules in 3 different threads and I was pretty peeved, as I thought my offences, despite occuring more than once, were extremely minor and not worthy of what I recieved in return.

I, like others before and after me, got frustrated and responsed poorly. The problem was, that I thought everything started and ended with me and I was not realising that I was one of many that had come in, not read the rules taken a bit of stick, reactly poorly and then had expected everything to bend towards my will. Imagine that happening again....and again....and again....and again, in the LLM section.

Anyway, I stuck with the LLM forum and hoped things would change and I'd get some justice, I saw the same thing that I did happen again and again. It started to remind me of working in a video store and customer....after customer......after customer.....after customer didn't rewind their VHS tapes and those people would also have thought, "It's just me and I'm just one person and it's not going to affect the idiot behind the desk ." but they all added up and made a job that should be so simple and kind of fun, into a chore. Thinking that, I just couldn't blame the LLM regulars, as I realised that they are the victims of continually having to put up with the same thing ad infinitum and naturally they also would get very frustrated and maybe occasionally act of that frustration, with someone who may/may not deserve it(as I did at the video store on rare occasions ).

I then decided to take a step back and FINALLY realised that, hey this section has been created with its own set of rules, there has to be valid reasons for those rules and that if I would simply read them, understand them and abide by them, I would be treated fairly, so I did and I was.

The LLMers then welcomed me and we had a laugh about everything and I realised that if they can accept and befreind an Australian with as ugly a mug as mine, they couldn't be all that bad.

[The 13th Duke of Wybourne]

Posting And You...

http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/flash/posting

[Jimbokav1971]

It could of been worse. He could have bought his girlfriend a cheap satin kimono for Christmas.

[BluMoon]

Originally posted by smass:

This is one of the recent threads that I've found quite irksome and I know you're all familiar with the OP. I realise that he wound a lot of people up and didn't exactly endear himself to anyone, but he started a genuinely positive thread and look at the responses he got. It's just playground petulance. He even had people reply to tell him they were ignoring him.

Ever heard the story of the boy who cried wolf?

The OP of that thread was warned once about breaking the rules of LLM, and he was told by the moderating crew to stop doing it. However, he continued to act inappropriately and his final post in that old topic had to be moderated due to all the things he'd done.

Is it wrong that the regulars didn't really believe him when he said, "Okay, this time I'm for real"?

[The 13th Duke of Wybourne]

Originally posted by Jimbokav1971:

It could of been worse. He could have bought his girlfriend a cheap satin kimono for Christmas.

What's the point of that reply? to insult?

...she loves her kimono.

[Jopo12]

Originally posted by Klipdrift:

People will always wonder whether or not an achievement is based upon playing skill or downloading skills.

That's the whole deal.

LOL, if someone actually thinks that "real" management skills and FM are 100 % 1-1 same, then I really don't wonder what the heck is wrong with these forums either.

Does someone really think also that IRL nobody ever gets a hint from somewhere? Is it forbidden to observe SAF and to learn from him?

It's ridiculous to complain about forum level as these regular "good" posters seem to have that much against new people etc. I really don't see in what Ched is wrong, or do you think it is only okay to be racist and prejudical? But nobody says these scorners are bad, it's only newbies who many times do nothing wrong.

[Ched]

Originally posted by smass:

Hopefully SI will update these antiquated forums to provide more functionality. If that happens I think there should be an interstitial page with the rules and specific terms to accept before they can enter the LLM part or perhaps it should be read-only to those who haven't passed some sort of milestone. Then hopefully anyone who doesn't share the attitude of so many in that forum and blithely plays their game won't be able to post in a way that may cause offence.

Personally I find the seriousness with which people approach the game a little too precious at times, but I wouldn't mock anyone since it's no more silly than any other hobby. But it is just a hobby. Saying "LLM is more what you are than what you do" isn't the kind of thinking that can reasonably be expected from people who just want to try playing with something other than a top side. And when they want that experience the LLM forum is the best place to go. They may just want try the game from a different perspective however not have their soul examined.

Although I may not post much in any of the forums, I visit every day and love reading through people's experiences with the game and picking up new ideas. It used to be a quick visit to the forum would give you a fresh outlook on the game and make it seem new even if you'd played 20 seasons. I've read the LLM rules and enjoyed playing the LLM way, but I made the decision never to post in the LLM forum. I knew that eventually I would be drawn into defending myself or others who are subjected to this sneering attitude that is so pervasive, though certainly not just in LLM. I knew that I wouldn't be able to help myself in replying if some of these insults were directed at me because, quite frankly, if one of those forum members said it to me in person I'd take them to pieces. No one likes to lose face, which seems to be the main reason behind most of the negative exchanges. It's pretty daft when you think how inconsequential it is.

This is one of the recent threads that I've found quite irksome and I know you're all familiar with the OP. I realise that he wound a lot of people up and didn't exactly endear himself to anyone, but he started a genuinely positive thread and look at the responses he got. It's just playground petulance. He even had people reply to tell him they were ignoring him.

Someone asked: Why should someone be immune from a particular persons anger if they have failed to take the time to read the rules? Because you should do as you would be done by. Treat people with respect for no other reason than because you can. Others will follow. You don't need to search for a reason to act with decency. It's a community forum after all, whereas it's made to sound like a competition to see who can be the most obnoxious. Responding with senseless intolerance and contempt isn't going to make people any more considerate. These people are as easily ignored as they are encouraged.

It was pretty brave of Miles to post what he did really. I'm not sure the frontmen of many businesses would dare rock the boat with so many longterm customers and just leave the community to fester in its misery. I just hope these forums aren't lost to those who demand respect but are only willing to pay it to those they feel are worthy. I'll end this hideously long post now by saying I hope I haven't upset anyone with it. That was not my intention and I only referenced LLM since that was the way this thread has gone, but my point within the context of Miles' original post was that most of us are culpable. If anyone cares enough to reply please don't be offended if I don't post again.

A top notch post - if there were more people like this, this very thread would not exist.

[Ched]

Originally posted by The 13th Duke of Wybourne:

Posting And You...

http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/flash/posting

Beyond epic - all new users should have to watch this lol

[aaberdeenn]

Originally posted by The 13th Duke of Wybourne:

Posting And You...

http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/flash/posting

Quality.

[Klipdrift]

Originally posted by Jopo12:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Klipdrift:

People will always wonder whether or not an achievement is based upon playing skill or downloading skills.

That's the whole deal.

LOL, if someone actually thinks that "real" management skills and FM are 100 % 1-1 same, then I really don't wonder what the heck is wrong with these forums either.

Does someone really think also that IRL nobody ever gets a hint from somewhere? Is it forbidden to observe SAF and to learn from him?

It's ridiculous to complain about forum level as these regular "good" posters seem to have that much against new people etc. I really don't see in what Ched is wrong, or do you think it is only okay to be racist and prejudical? But nobody says these scorners are bad, it's only newbies who many times do nothing wrong. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I really don't know what you are talking about.

However, I was referring to playing skills, as in understanding how the game (FM) works and try to do the best you can as opposed to downloading a tactic to get some results.

[iajafer]

Firstly, I feel honoured that we at LLM have invoked a four page tirade from people who don't understand what LLM's all about...however, in the spirit of detente I'll attempt to help you along.

RULES

Rules involve posting in the LLM Forum. They're fairly simple and should stop any anger and argument if they're read, understood and adhered to.

For managers that enjoy the challenge of bringing a lower league team to the top - without the need for tipping, cheating or bragging. ]

Forget the ] or read the history, it's explained there.

One of the main complaints I've got from the previous posts is "Why can't I post in GPTG, The Editors' Hideaway, T&TT", "Why isn't there a rule about this", etc.

Let me deal with both at once.

...without the need for tipping...

What are GPTG, The Editors' Hideaway, T&TT for? You post in there, you're either a giver or a taker (Steady! Of tips, for goodness' sake!)

Not a good start (to LLM regulars) if a user's history is spattered with visits to them (Yeh, they probably shouldn't look at history, but then again, why is it available if not to be looked at, how else do they know if a new poster's a charlatan?)

LLM's an SI forum. There will never be a rule which says you can't post in another forum. However (as pointed out several times in the thread so far), you post in LLM, you adhere to the rules, one of which involves tipping.

Bloody hell...we've only covered the first line and three points are covered already...who wrote those Rules and Header?

The following will not be tolerated:

* Player Naming or Tipping - Including all FM, CM from 01/02 onwards, and Real Life Players. (Staff and Ex-Player names may be deleted at the Mods' discretion)

* Tactics naming

* Use of Editors and 3rd Party Updates

* Bragging

Do any of those have to be explained or expanded on? If so, there's a "Featured Topic" which does just that. Personally I'd question the IQ of anyone who needed explanation, but it's there anyway.

Those are the Rules, Transgressions will be subject to the guidelines laid down in the T&C and the House Rules.

GUIDELINES

Those are there to help people along with LLM. They're there for all to read.

Bottom line, though, is that they deal with playing the game realistically, as realistically as the game allows.

The reason those two are highlighted is this. It's a game. It's not real life. It makes no difference if Hacker O'Clogger plays well for Thurrock in real life, if your scout says he's bad then he's bad.

That's the difference between "game" and "real life"...many problems are brought about in LLM because people can't seem to grasp this.

"There's a list of players on the internet", "Agents send round lists to clubs", "The PFA have lists of unemployed people..." - Real life.

Are they in the game? No. - Football Manager - Game.

The beauty of FM08 is that the Club decides where you can send your scouts. In the past we had a "SWYCT" (Scout Where You Can Tour) and a "SYB" (Scout Your Borders) couple of guidelines to see where a new guy could send his scouts.

Thurrock couldn't tour the Far East, therefore Scouts couldn't be sent there...therefore the Malaysian striker of the Indian Gk couldn't be scouted therefote couldn't be signed.

The Guidelines go down to this. Does it feel realistic? If someone comes into LLM and their idea of realism is outlandish then they'll be told...gently if the Mods get there first, perhaps a bit rougher if others do...but we're working on that.

Bottom line.

LLM is a friendly place. Transgressors are treated friendly(ly), it's only when they get "Arsey" that things can go a bit wrong.

Unfortunately people who've never been to LLM "because it's too unfriendly" feel qualified to mump their gums about incidents they have no idea about...it's the nature of the internet, minds are made up on a very small %age of the truth...give it a go.

I'll answer any questions you may have (as long as they're not answered already and as long as they're not too silly (Silliness decided by me )

[I\'m Brian (and so is my w]

Originally posted by iajafer:

I'll answer any questions you may have (as long as they're not answered already and as long as they're not too silly (Silliness decided by me )

What's the meaning of life?

[Michael F]

good post iajafer, i think this clears things up for most people.

[iajafer]

Originally posted by I'm Brian (and so is my wife!):

What's the meaning of life?

42.

[iajafer]

Thanks Michael, btw. If it helps it's how it was intended

[I\'m Brian (and so is my w]

Originally posted by iajafer:

42.

Thanks Deep Thought

Never saw you as a hitchhiker to be honest.

[dafuge]

(Thought I'd ask in here to avoid the potential stone pelting I may get posting in the LLM forum based on the reaction my name gets in there.)

What do you lot think about the player search list?

Do your rules still prohibit the use of it, or have things changed since it became linked to your scouting knowledge which is a product of your staff?

Personally I think it is realistic that my scouts and coaches are able to provide me a list of players within their knowledge base without providing me every single detail about them (attribute masking). I often use this list to decide who to send my scouts out to watch, then sign players based on the scouts judgements. Would this belief mean I am not allowed to post in that forum?

[aston_martin]

Dafuge, why does your name get a bad response in there?

[UELLfan]

dafuge:

Not that I know of. What you say is becoming more and more realistic as SI keep refining the filtered by knowledge list.

And for the record, I do think your way of approaching the game is very much like mine.

I think Ian's gripe is with the challenge 'per se' rather than with you personally.

[Guest]

No change on the player search list, still out of bounds.

My view is that if the scouts know of these players the they should provide me with a report of thier abilities.

I did notice the change however & may be a step in the right direction from an LLM point of view.

As for your name being mud I know most of us wouldn't touch your challenges with another persons but that alone shouldn't mean you get pelters for posting an honest question, just my opinion though.

[UELLfan]

Barside: That's not the search box. He's talking about filtering by knowledge FFS.

Search box: verbotten.

Filter list: use with caution-realism.

[Jimbokav1971]

dafuge. It REALLY isn't your name that get's a bad response, more the challenge linked to your name, (of which as you know I am a huge fan).

I think I can answer the issue about the player search list as it is something that frustrates me in both your thread and the Gundo thread. I'm sure you already know what I'm going to say but I will say it anyway.

Islanders.

These are players, who will appear on your player search list while you are playing in Conference South and who are from nations such as Turks & Caicos Islands, US Virgin Isles, Netherlands Antilles, Cayman Island, and other obscure nations that I cannot think of off the top of my head. By the looks of the players from these nations, that are being signed by people, (not only in your thread, but also in Gundo's), their ability is not in line with what we wouyld expect from a relative footballing backwater.

Before I commented on how good some of these "Islanders", appear to be I should have asked the question, how is a club that can only scout it's own nation, (and has no foreign staff), able to gain scouting knowledge of players who are based on the other side of the World.

I agree that SI have made great strides in this area, but until it moves on still further, it will have to remain a big no-no to LLM.

[Guest]

Originally posted by UELLfan:

Barside: That's not the search box. He's talking about filtering by knowledge FFS.

Search box: verbotten.

Filter list: use with caution-realism.

That's not how I read dafuge's question.

Originally posted by dafuge:

What do you lot think about the player search list?

I've not noticed a filter by knowledge option in the player search facility only the usual 'unrealistic targets'. What I did notice however was at the start of my save the list of players in the search screen was much smaller than in the past & restricted to local (to the country I'm in) players only.

I may have & not for the first time got the wrong end of the stick though.

[UELLfan]

Ok now... this is somehow getting off hand of late. The adaggio 'more Popist than the Pope himself' springs to mind with what's going on about LLM those days.

Taken from the guidelines*

The Search Screen.

Some LLaMa’s use the search screen to shortlist players in their area and then send off their scouts to find out how good a player he really is. Other more zealous LLaMas avoid this screen entirely letting their scout do the job for which he was hired ie: finding players. Signing “known†players is a big no no. Known players are ones that are known to you through outside influences, or have been signed and performed well for you in previous games of CM. Regardless of what you tendency is with the Search Screen, no player should ever be signed unless he is first given the once over by one of your scouts.

Signing Players.

All players should be first scouted before signing for an LL Club. Send your scouts out to Regions or Nations using the SWYCT or SYB (Scout Your Borders) guidelines, and decide which of the recommendations you’ll sign. Once the financial situation of your Club is better, and the Club’s reputation is such as you’d be able to attract foreign players, send your scouts further afield, keeping it as realistic as possible.

The exceptions are loans, in which it’s acceptable to use the player/staff search using minimum filters (e.g. for loan, free)in an emergency. LLaMas believe that players that you loan in should be first discovered by your scouts. This is a personal preference used by the more zealous LLaMas. Again let your conscience be your guide

If you have no scouts it’s ok to use the player/staff search screen to identify players and to invite them for a trial period to ascertain whether they suit your squad.

Now. Unless we're asking everyone to act as a Zealot, tell me where in the guidelines* is found that magic bit where it says you'll be outcasted, beaten and flayed the very moment you access that search list, because I really even reread the guidelines (which I hadn't read fully since 2003) to make sure my mind wasn't playing tricks on me.

*Which by the way are freaking guidelines and not freaking rules set in stone that all the people must comply or get shot down to death.

[iajafer]

Originally posted by dafuge:

(Thought I'd ask in here to avoid the potential stone pelting I may get posting in the LLM forum based on the reaction my name gets in there.)

What do you lot think about the player search list?

Do your rules still prohibit the use of it, or have things changed since it became linked to your scouting knowledge which is a product of your staff?

Personally I think it is realistic that my scouts and coaches are able to provide me a list of players within their knowledge base without providing me every single detail about them (attribute masking). I often use this list to decide who to send my scouts out to watch, then sign players based on the scouts judgements. Would this belief mean I am not allowed to post in that forum?

From The Guidelines:

The Search Screen.

Some LLaMa’s use the search screen to shortlist players in their area and then send off their scouts to find out how good a player he really is. Other more zealous LLaMas avoid this screen entirely letting their scout do the job for which he was hired ie: finding players. Signing “known†players is a big no no. Known players are ones that are known to you through outside influences, or have been signed and performed well for you in previous games of CM. Regardless of what you tendency is with the Search Screen, no player should ever be signed unless he is first given the once over by one of your scouts.

The Transfer Screen.

Stricter LLaMas would never attempt to sign players purely based on the fact they appear as freed in the screen that lists all transfers Worldwide as such a list does not exist in real life. It’s possible to find out such information in the Press, online, etc., but a real life manager doesn’t have access to a transfer screen.

Less scrupulous LLaMas use the screen by identifying freed players and sending their scouts to watch them, signing them or otherwise based on the scouts’ recommendations.

The “Find†button.

Not used by LLaMas. In order to use the “Find†button you have to know who you’re searching for. This can only be done by having prior knowledge of the player, either by having past experience of him in a previous game or by listening to a recommendation by a player tipper.

Bear in mind, those are guidelines based on realism.

You have scouts, your Club allows you to scout England (I'm using English LLM as an example). Anyone from outwith England would be unsignable, less zealous LLaMas may use the search screen and scout players found on them...but even trying to put a "real life" slant on it how likely is a Whitby manager to seek out a guy from the South of England, how likely is that player to up roots and move to Whitby?

Using scouts cover all bases, if a scout finds a player from Dover and he's willing to sign, then that's different from unrealistically searching yourself.

As for you being "persona non grata" in LLM...it's your challenge that is, not you.

[iajafer]

Originally posted by dafuge:

(Thought I'd ask in here to avoid the potential stone pelting I may get posting in the LLM forum based on the reaction my name gets in there.)

What do you lot think about the player search list?

Do your rules still prohibit the use of it, or have things changed since it became linked to your scouting knowledge which is a product of your staff?

Personally I think it is realistic that my scouts and coaches are able to provide me a list of players within their knowledge base without providing me every single detail about them (attribute masking). I often use this list to decide who to send my scouts out to watch, then sign players based on the scouts judgements. Would this belief mean I am not allowed to post in that forum?

Interesting use of "Rules", btw...Rules have never prohibited it...the Rules are explained above. It's always been a "Guideline".

[Cosmo-poof]

I believe, iajafer already cleared up many of the misunderstandings that often come up in regards of the LLM subforum. Nevertheless, I will try to explain a couple things in a different manner.

Several posters seem to think that they are not permitted to post in the LLM forum. Well, this is only partially true.

A forum has a community aspect. It has a life on its own, and what else represents this life than the users and thus members of this community? And as you all know, a community has to have a certain likemindedness. A common interest, a common goal, a common thought, or whatever. The (regular) members of OTF for example share that they like to talk about anything and have fun. For some people it's banter, for others it's useless drivel. Everybody has a different perception, depending on his (or her) preferences.

So, the LLM forum is a bit more specific in the definition of what the members share. Like it was often said, it's not about just picking a team in a lower league and playing FM. It's about enjoying the game in a specific manner.

If you like to use the editor to change things, or if you enjoy to read about others tactical discoveries and see if they work, instead of trying it yourself, you still can post in the LLM-Forum. But the question is: why would you?

It's a question of respect from one member to others. The place has written on top of it that it is supposed to be a place of people who enjoy to play the game without the need for certain things. If you do not share these thoughts (and some members here certainly don't, or else they wouldn't contradict the purpose of LLM so much), of course posting there would cause unrest amongst the other members.

So, it's not simply "posting there" that is forbidden for people. It's instigating unrest, that is closely watched and occasionally dealt with by closing topics, suggesting that you better try your luck in a different place, or even warnings/cardings.

There is no reason why a person that does not play the game in the "way of LLM" should not be allowed to post decently ín that forum. Actually, even Graeme Kelly posted there occasionally, which might seem weird, given the stance towards editing in the LLM forum. But he always respected what the place about, and more often than not, interesting discussions emerged.

So, to summarize:

the LLM forum is about a certain thing. If you do not like this thing, why would you want to post there? Just to prove a point? Just to make others mad? Just because you want to change things? Or just because you feel left-out?

Nobody would question why only women are permitted into female toilets. I believe, the law doesn't really forbid men to enter these places but still it's in a way forbidden.

[fluffy_sheep2]

I've been following this thread for the past few days and have read what has been said about the LLM forum, which is a forum that I haven't really looked at much since I've been a member and is a place I haven't really got my head round.

From what some of the players in here have posted about the ethos of LLM, it makes a lot of sense and I understand and appreciate the way they play the game. I can see how it can be seen as being a good way to play FM as it makes things as realistic as possible and the sense of achievement from it must be great.

However, what I struggle with is the reason behind having the LLM forum? From what I've read (correct me if I'm wrong) you can't name players, staff, discuss tactics, brag or give any hints or tips, and that the point is to give updates on how your save is going without mentioning any of those aspects of the game. Why not pad out the updates, write a story and post it in FM stories? Wouldn't that make it more interesting to read? What else can you talk about in there? Am I missing something blatantly obvious about the point of having the forum!?

[iajafer]

The "point" is updates?

Yep...you're missing it.

Why don't you do something novel and actually have a look in the forum and see what's written about and discussed instead of making snap judgements based on other peoples' (erroneous) observations?

Like I said:

Unfortunately people who've never been to LLM "because it's too unfriendly" feel qualified to mump their gums about incidents they have no idea about...it's the nature of the internet, minds are made up on a very small %age of the truth...give it a go.

[dafuge]

Originally posted by iajafer:

As for you being "persona non grata" in LLM...it's your challenge that is, not you.

I realise that, and appreciate that the rules in my thread do go against the grain of the LLM forum. The discussion that can take place in that thread would under no circumstances belong in the LLM forum. I think I've said it before but I have never encouraged people taking part in my challenge to post in your forum, I see a few of them have obviously caused some unrest in the past by doing so.

[dudester]

Although I don't i like reading the LLM forum I don't play an LLM game but some of the discussions I have read on how to improve FM are very logical and constructive rather different to the state of GQ at the moment.

When i have posted in LLM I haven't had anyone be rude flame or unwelcoming.

The thing I will say for LLM is they all seem to share a sense of humour and I could say how some people might not appreciate that.

[fluffy_sheep2]

Originally posted by iajafer:

The "point" is updates?

Yep...you're missing it.

Why don't you do something novel and actually have a look in the forum and see what's written about and discussed instead of making snap judgements based on other peoples' (erroneous) observations?

Like I said:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Unfortunately people who've never been to LLM "because it's too unfriendly" feel qualified to mump their gums about incidents they have no idea about...it's the nature of the internet, minds are made up on a very small %age of the truth...give it a go.

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I wasn't having a dig or anything, I was just curious to know and thought I'd ask here without having to read a load of threads in LLM. Seems like I shouldn't be asking questions about another FM forum, in a thread called "These forums" in the GQ section.

[Ched...banned?]

I am officially outraged.

I open my email today to find something of SI..."hmmm" i wonder, "could it be a late christmas card?" - i open to find....

"The site administrators have removed your access rights:

combination of unacceptable posts"

For the record:

I have NEVER been given a yellow card.

I have NEVER been given a warning.

I have NEVER even had an unofficial warning.

I have NEVER been asked to post differently, or cut out abuse or anything along those lines.

I have ONLY EVER started threads that are polite, well meant, and genuinely constructive.

Even if my posts may be at times argumentative, the arguments are always well natured, and i strongly feel that i have NEVER offended anybody in these forums that i have argued with.

The only post that could (IMO) be interpreted as unnaceptable, is the one above, containing a profanity. - I FLAGGED THAT POST MYSELF IN ORDER TO GET RID OF A PROFANITY FROM WHERE MINORS COULD SEE IT - if this doesn't constitute the sort of behaviour we are trying to promote on these forums i don't know what does.

For the record, i am aware that in order to have my account returned i need to email the mods. The fact that i am unable to find that email address without an account is why i created this alias. - i am writing this as my email to the mods has so far not been answered.

As you can imagine i'm quite annoyed at this moment, so i think it is a striking reflection on my character that despite being furious i have phrased this post perfectly politely.

As somebody who always tries to conduct himself in an acceptable manner i am deeply offended that a mod felt the need to ban me without ANY sort of warning.

Needless to say a reply would be welcome.

[iajafer]

Originally posted by dafuge:

I realise that, and appreciate that the rules in my thread do go against the grain of the LLM forum. The discussion that can take place in that thread would under no circumstances belong in the LLM forum. I think I've said it before but I have never encouraged people taking part in my challenge to post in your forum, I see a few of them have obviously caused some unrest in the past by doing so.

Indeed, it all goes down to the individual(s) not quite understanding that LLM isn't solely about managing a lower league team

[iajafer]

Originally posted by fluffy_sheep2:

I wasn't having a dig or anything, I was just curious to know and thought I'd ask here without having to read a load of threads in LLM. Seems like I shouldn't be asking questions about another FM forum, in a thread called "These forums" in the GQ section.

I suppose we just don't like being expected to justify our existence in a thread in another forum.

It's well publicised in LLM what the forum's all about, I'm certainly not about to do some cap-in-hand justification in here.

That...although it may look like it...isn't a dig either, it's a simple statement of fact

[heathxxx]

iajafer & Cosmo-poof - thank you for your intelligent and insightful posts regarding the LLM forum.

I am the "OP" who perhaps caused some "unrest" in the LLM Forums, mentioned earlier. Your posts, along with those of a few others, have provided me with a better understanding of the LLM forum in a manner that's perhaps a little clearer than I had perhaps previously understood.

When I had posted in the LLM forums mischeiviously, I'll admit, I did so with the intent of having a little fun, a nudge if you will. Granted, it clearly backfired.

As I have taken the time to read into the "ethos" of the users a little more as these recent posts have run their course, I begin to understand more why some of the "hardcore" LLM forum members were displeased with my one, perhaps two mischevious posts. Effectively from there I was sort of black-listed by members. I also did'nt realise that when posting in the LLM forums, how having posted in tactics, editors, general questions threads, etc... had such a bearing on "acceptance" in the LLM forum.

Call that my misunderstanding of the "ethos".

I would like to take this opportunity to hold my hands up and say that I'm genuinely sorry if my tongue-in-cheek and mis-interpreted posts caused such unrest. One was poking a bit of fun in my opinion. The other was a mis-interpretation of the guidelines and would or could be viewed as "tipping", though it did in fact help create an interesting debate regarding the "realism" of clubs arranging friendlies in a certain way and was certainly valid judging by the responses.

When I recently posted a genuinely intended thread, seeking advice and perhaps guidence, I was a little surprised at the negative responses. It was not so much the flaming, but what I would call personalised verbal abuse that I found disheartening. Perhaps through not understanding the LLM "ethos" clearly, I did'nt understand how, shall we say "passionate" and protective the regular posters are about the LLM forum. I clearly don't share the level of committment, solely to restrict myself to LLM ethos alone.

That being said though, my real issue in this thread was that realistically, in any of the other areas of the forums, some of the responses my genuine thread generated, would not have been taken kindly, or even frowned upon.

Personally, I play the game a number of ways. I find that as CM/FM has progressed over the years, it's become a huge game with huge possibilities and beholds plenty of areas worthy of discussion. Let's say that my own particular interest in the forums encompasses the broader picture, rather than being isolated to one particular area.

Belief in the latter thread I posted being "truthful" or "within the spirit" of the LLM forums is entirely in the eye of the reader, especially given I was on some of the poster's "ignore" list anyway. Surely though, it's not an excuse to be nasty to someone, as I felt some of the responses were. One helpful poster did mention that I might have difficulty gaining credibility given my previous "misdemeanour" and posting history in other forum topics, which was a genuine and intelligent reply and duly noted. Another poster highlighted a post I had made in the tactics forum as a responce to point out this also. Unfortunately, many of the further posts were not as "constructive" or informative.

Perhaps it's a question of context. I don't take kindly to openly being called a "cheat" and a "liar". Perhaps in the context of the LLM forums, the fact I post in other forums makes me a cheat, which if I was claiming to be strictly conforming to the guidelines always, then I suppose I am a "cheat". With respect of being labelled a "liar", then that is a personalised accusation directed without justification as posting a thread about a save, following LLM guidelines, with a lower-league team in the LLM forum would be pretty pointless, would it not? Such a personalised claim is clearly uncalled for. Perhaps though, I took their comments out of context, but the poster in question tried to justify their accusation and by suggesting the post I had made was linked to another save i was discussing in the tactics forum, with a different team I might add, which was in fact, untrue.

Now when all is said and done, through the progression of this particular "debate", I do perhaps understand the LLM "ethos" more, and perhaps also understand that I will clearly not be welcome in the LLM forum as I clearly don't "conform" to this "ethos". I am an open minded individual and take an interest in all the different forums.

If I may be so bold as to make a small suggestion though...

Politeness, does not take much effort. Tolerance of others is also a virtue.

Having checked through my posts in the LLM forum (since 2005), I don't believe I have ever been rude or abusive, to deserve the rudeness or abuse I received in return. As I said earlier, I apologise for "unrest" caused by a mischevious post, and by a post that leant towards the frowned upon "tipping". No harm was intended, was'nt malicious and I certainly had no intention of being so.

I shall no longer post in the LLM forum so as to avoid any further unrest or confrontation. I prefer to enjoy myself and the discussion of the game. I think if you read through my history, you will see I ask for help and advice, whilst also giving help or advice when I can. I can be a little sarcastic sometimes, but in the lightest sense I'm sure. Occasionally I disagree with another poster's comments, but do not feel that I am deliberately argumentative in my responses.

I do not wish to belittle the LLM forum, or it's posters. I congratulate them on the way they prefer to play the game and have enjoyed reading through the posts there. I often feel though, that sometimes people read into things a little too deeply or take things to literally or seriously.

I hope through this post that those I caused offence to in the LLM forum perhaps understand where I'm coming from a little better, as I possibly understand where they are coming from a little better to.

Through these recent posts, I think we all understand each other a little better. Hopefully we've learned something too and hopefully in future, people will show more tolerance, be a little more polite and perhaps, not so eager to jump on someones back because their views, opinions, playing style, differ from that of another.

Good luck with your games - however you play and keep having fun!

[iajafer]

Originally posted by Ched...banned?:

I am officially outraged.

...

Needless to say a reply would be welcome.

Two points, really:

1) Your e-mail was received by mods@ less than one hour ago, less than half an hour before you registered your alias.

2) Registering an alias was a big mistake, it's better to wait for a reply than to spit the dummy.

I'm sure the mod involved will reply at his leisure.

[fluffy_sheep2]

Originally posted by iajafer:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by fluffy_sheep2:

I wasn't having a dig or anything, I was just curious to know and thought I'd ask here without having to read a load of threads in LLM. Seems like I shouldn't be asking questions about another FM forum, in a thread called "These forums" in the GQ section.

I suppose we just don't like being expected to justify our existence in a thread in another forum.

It's well publicised in LLM what the forum's all about, I'm certainly not about to do some cap-in-hand justification in here.

That...although it may look like it...isn't a dig either, it's a simple statement of fact </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Fair enough. I just didn't really want to post those questions in LLM as I might have been set on fire so I thought here would be the best place. Plus I don't play the LLM way so I shouldn't really posting in there anyway. It wasn't my intention to wind anybody up. My apologies if I did.

[Ched...banned?]

Originally posted by iajafer:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ched...banned?:

I am officially outraged.

...

Needless to say a reply would be welcome.

Two points, really:

1) Your e-mail was received by mods@ less than one hour ago, less than half an hour before you registered your alias.

2) Registering an alias was a big mistake, it's better to wait for a reply than to spit the dummy.

I'm sure the mod involved will reply at his leisure. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I needed to register the alias in order to find out if i'd emailed the correct address - due to the fact house rules is not available to people without an account.

If what i posted sounded like "spitting the dummy" i appologise, but i truly felt i have done nothing wrong.

[iajafer]

Ched, I'm going to suspend this account now as it's an alias and you should wait until you have word back from mods@

[Ackter]

I still see little difference between reading wwfan's tactical discussions and using knowledge learned from previous save games.

Both things do the same: teach you how to understand the tactical side of the game better.

[Seagulls Forever]

I find it odd that Ched gets banned when others guilty of far greater offences go unpunished. One has to suspect the invisible hand of petty dictatorship.

[Ackter]

It'll be one of two things Seagulls, either:

1) It was a simple mistake

or

2) Ched has actually done something that we haven't picked up on