WC2010 Tactics Discussion - Group C - Algeria, England, Slovenia, USA

[lam]

I don't think you can say that the players chosen for this formation 'normaly' play well in the relevant positons for their clubs. There are to many other variances to take into account.

Just some examples:

Lennon: Normaly plays with a RB behind him who, in all honesty, doesnt get to far beyond the edge of the box. So, when Johnson is bombing down the side each time, it starts to limit the space he has.

Rooney: Used to playing either solo striker with players capable of coming in off the wing and scoring - England do not have this. OR play with far more creative forwards than the options of Defoe, Crouch or Heskey give him.

Gerrard: Does not 'really' play on the left to much and when he does he is playing with a solo striker who will simply get to where he needs to be (Tores)

Lampard: Used to playing with someone that has the PPM of 'stay back at all times' therefore giving him freedom to go where he wishes.

In my view, these are just some examples of the issues that Capello faced.

You can not put players into the same roles in the National squad as their club formations and simply say 'get on with it'. AND, that is what I beleived he did.

It goes without saying that one of the best players we had out there, in terms of performances, was Ashely Cole. Now, why is that? Well.... in my view, its because the man infront of him was incapable of staying out on the wing for longer than a few minutes, which in turn gave Cole lots of space to run into.

[SFraser]

Tactically, a lot of the big sides are playing the 4-2-3-1 shape. Just look at how many nations are using 4-2-3-1 style formations with two holders shielding the defence at this World Cup. Most of the bigger sides (e.g. the Dutch, the Germans, the Spanish, the French, the Italians - although the less said about the last two, the better - even Brazil are playing with two holders). It helps the fullbacks push forward and enables the front four to roam, create and score goals.

I think that's the most important point of this world cup so far. It's going to change in the knockout phase ofcourse.

In the group stages you have "big teams" without the luxury of "signing" players that actually work in the side playing against "small teams" playing for draws and points. Barring the Argies the entire World Cup has been remarkeably equal in terms of ability and tactics, but that doesn't suit the big sides, it suits the small sides.

In terms of players, tactics, systems it's all pretty similar stuff. The differences tend to be subtle tactical details and performances of the team. The Germans have shown that they can be beaten, yet at the same time are more than capable of ruthlessly gutting anyone that it is not on their game.

Put it another way, Manchester United beat Barcelona 1-0 on aggregate over two legs in 2008 and won the title. In 2009 Barcelona beat Manchester United 2-0 in the final and this made Barcelona "the greatest team ever". In 2010 Barca got pretty much re-educated in football from Mourinho.

In other words football is a very even game at the top level of the sport. Barcelona are not the team everyone claims them to be at the absolute highest level, but that doesn't change opinions.

This World Cup is very similar. Everyone is very close together and all it takes is mistakes and good performances for anyone to thrash anyone else. The key so far seems to be performance rather than variations in tactics, although there are a few examples of some subtle tactical details making a big impact.

The Argies stand out because they seem to have a real hunger and huge confidence for this Trophy. If you want to start handing out blame to Capello, maybe that's where you should start. Maradona really seems to have produced the "World Cup Spirit" in his side, and it is going to take a side that matches them for self-belief and confidence and performance levels before they can hope to beat the Argies tactically.

[wwfan]

Just posted this on the Guardian website, where a lot of bile was being directed at Glenn Johnson. He may not have been great, but he certainly shouldn't be taking the flack he's getting over there.

I'm very confused at all the bile coming towards Johnson. None of the goals were his fault.

Goals

1-0: Terry ducks underneath the header instead of clearing it or chasing it back. Klose outpaces a horribly exposes Upson. Terry's fault.

2-0: Having let Muller run at Cole only minutes before without offering any support, Gerrard again fails to track his forward run down the flank. Cole is left having to deal with two players, pulling Terry and Upson towards the left. Johnson has to cover the centre, leaving Podolski in space. Gerrard's fault.

3-1: When the free kick rebounds to Barry, he gets caught in possession with no cover behind him. Should never have tried to move forward with the ball in that situation knowing all his central defenders were up. Lampard made the situation worse by failing to drop deeper and central as Barry committed. Barry's fault, with help from Lampard.

4-1: Defenders caught up pitch, with Barry horribly slow on the cover. Complete loss of discipline. Central defence and Barry at fault.

For every goal, Johnson was horribly, horribly exposed. Blaming him misses the real reasons for the ineptitude. Too easy a scapegoat.

Players

The biggest two culprits are Terry and Gerrard. Terry made a schoolboy error for the first goal and Gerrard's complete unwillingness to track back in support of Cole cost the second. Given Germany had almost scored from exactly the same move only a couple of minutes earlier, it was unforgivable that he failed to track the run a second time. He compounded these errors by trying to be a Hollywood hero, shooting when it was never on and aiming to play 50 yard super passes rather than keep things simple. He also continuously occupied the forward space that Rooney naturally drifts into, which is the channel between the left back and left central defender, which reduced Rooney's space and impact.

In addition, the back four and keeper, with Upson and James most at fault, kept on banging the ball long. Whereas this might have worked with Heskey or Crouch playing, it is a ridiculous ploy when you have Defoe and Rooney up front. England ended up playing a lot of possession football with no width and nobody to aim at. This was further compromised by Gerrard's wasteful shooting and the tendency of the central midfielders to want to do things too quickly all the time. A total lack of composure and hero complexes in the final third.

The Manager

The other culprit is Capello. Prior to this World Cup, the outlet pass was always the ball to the right flank or the high ball into Heskey/Crouch. If this was to be the plan, he needed to stick with his convictions and pick Lennon/Wright-Phillips and Heskey/Crouch regardless. Once he dropped them, the whole manner of play changed, which he didn't seem to recognise. Milner, effective as his crossing is, simply doesn't have the pace to be the outlet man on the right flank. Gerrard refuses to do it on the left. They are both central midfielders as well, so regularly moved inside into areas they are used to, leaving England shorn of width. Whereas Johnson did manage to offer support down the right, Cole seemed so lacking in trust of Gerrard, understandably so given the second goal, that he rarely offered on the overlap.

Given how much Capello is being paid, he really should have worked out a different strategy based on the type of player he was starting. Chelsea's narrow diamond with the fullbacks rampaging forward would have far better fitted the personnel he had out.

Performance Break Down

James: Exposed time and time again. If he'd had the game of his life might have kept England in it, but can't be blamed for any goal.

Johnson: Left completely exposed by his central defence and lack of midfield cover. Tried to offer width on the right, but was often ignored when in space.

Cole: Horribly exposed by Gerrard, which cost his dynamism down the left and ultimately made England too narrow and predictable down that flank.

Terry: Unforgivably at fault for the first goal. Guilty of a hero complex when England were trying to get back into the game which resulted in his abandoning his defensive duties way, way too early in the match.

Upson: Terrible distribution, but was let down more by Terry's idiocy and Gerrard's unwillingness to track back than by any of his own defensive failings.

Milner: Tried hard, but one-paced game and tendency to drift inside cost England down his flank.

Gerrard: Worst player on the pitch by a margin. I want to like him, but he was dire.

Barry: Too slow in the cover and got dragged too far forward, suggesting he is not a true defensive midfielder.

Lampard: Dangerous throughout and obviously unlucky. However, on a number of occasions watched play go by him rather than move quickly to cover the defence.

Rooney: Controversial, but I thought he looked dangerous and played well. Great first touch and movement, but hampered by those playing off him.

Defoe: Anonymous and too central, leaving England no wide outlet up front, which, given his lack of height and abundance of pace, is mindless.

[crouchaldinho]

I wouldn't disagree with most of that WWFan, apart from the bit about Rooney playing well! I thought he was as dire as the rest of them to be honest.

[phidelta42]

Just posted this on the Guardian website, where a lot of bile was being directed at Glenn Johnson. He may not have been great, but he certainly shouldn't be taking the flack he's getting over there.

It seems to be the way things are with fullbacks noted for their attacking play. Lahm has been getting the treatment from some pundits for being weak defensively. Ashley Cole used to get criticised often and harshly too. Statistically Johnson was Liverpool's most missed defender last season when unavailable, but it will take years of good defending and probably Liverpool winning major trophies before people recognise he can actually defend. He'll make mistakes, as do all defenders. He'll get caught upfield occasionally, as any attacking fullback will, but he's far from a liability.

[crouchaldinho]

From The Independent:

The German manager, Joachim Löw's, interpretation of the game included an acknowledgement that England had been done an injustice. "Yes, as far as I could see from the television replays, this ball was across the line. It should have been awarded and given as a goal," he said. But Löw said that he had targeted England's defence as a weakness.

"We knew that the midfielders – Gerrard and Lampard – always support the forwards and that their midfield would be open," he said. "There would be spaces. Our objective was to set Terry up with [Miroslav] Klose to force him to come out of the defence. We knew the full-backs would be very much to the side, and that would create space that we could penetrate. We could have been 3-0 up in the first half. We did penetrate them.

"We knew that we would have to try and tackle the English early on in midfield and take away any space they would have beyond midfield. We knew they might become impatient and lose their discipline. We did that successfully.

[wwfan]

I wouldn't disagree with most of that WWFan, apart from the bit about Rooney playing well! I thought he was as dire as the rest of them to be honest.

I watched the game with German friend who pointed out to me how well Rooney was playing and how he was able to bring the ball down and turn at the defence without being unduly troubled. He was getting very worried about the influence Rooney was beginning to exert when it was only 2-1. However, he was scathing at how the rest of the team were moving off Rooney and was only worried about Rooney going himself. Because I could watch it through his eyes, I could really see what he was getting at.

Rooney regularly brought difficult balls under instant control and turned his man only to look up and see no runners. Gerrard would move inside, leaving no ball to the left, Defoe was too close and centre and not attacking channels, leaving no ball forward, and Milner was generally not up with play, leaving no ball right. That left a choice of a ball back to Lampard or Barry, or turning to go himself. I think he should actually be commended for how often he played the simple pass rather than go Hollywood. Gerrard should take note. However, this would clog up and slow down play, which allowed the previously stretched German midfield to regroup.

Rooney was terrible in the opening two games, but in some form in the last two, only to be unlucky or let down by colleagues. He's going to be a media scapegoat though. as my previous post made clear, I think Gerrard and Terry need the get the full guns as neither of their performances were even close to acceptable.

[SFraser]

Johnson has been criminally poor defensively all season and with an AMC and RW ahead of him, with an Inside Left and Left Wingback on the other flank he needs to learn to play a disciplined supporting game.

Johnson wasn't directly at fault for any of the 4 goals, but he was completely missing from every single move in the game in both attack and defence. You can't scapegoat Johnson when Terry was at fault for a huge amount of defensive problems, but it is crystal clear that the guy is utterly clueless when it comes to positioning, timing and reading the flow of a match.

Unlike Ashley Cole, Johnson is not an essential component of the attacking play down one flank, he is not necessary to provide width. This far more than his ability protects him from criticism. The team today was setup at the back to deal with the weakness of Johnson and Upson. Terry does not play RCB ever. Why did Terry play RCB? Because Johnson and Upson are weak links and cannot be trusted to play on the same side.

As for "Chelsea's Diamond" when you see Milner and Gerrard and Lampard getting in the way of Defoe and Rooney, with vast gaps down the right flank that Johnson is predictably failing to fill, it is hard to imagine that Capello was not "attempting" to play something very similar.

In the last two games we have seen glimpses of Rooney, Lampard and Gerrard somewhere near "decent" but the rest of the side is simply not capable of supporting these players. Terry was incredibly poor today, but he was playing on a completely different side of the defence because of the fear of playing Johnson and Upson on the same side.

You could go through the entire England team and pick flaws in everyone, but altogether I think there were some genuinely average players playing alongside side some genuinely average or poor performances from the key players. Johnson might not warrent scapegoating, but he is a seriously average Fullback in anything other than cutting inside and using his left peg around the box. Infact "average fullback" might be putting it nicely.

To be fair though WWFan, I agree with your Player Performance judgement. Gerrard has a habit of looking supremely better than he actually is, and Lampard finally turned up but only for a few minutes here and there. I think it is difficult to criticise Capello given the "talent" at his disposal and given the performances of key players throughout the tournament. He has built as "English style" a side as he could, filled the "holes" up with the best players he could find, and then was thoroughly let down by some utterly disasterous performances once the Cup kicked off. Imo.

Watching England you kept getting the feeling that a bit more organisation between Gerrard/Rooney et all when defending, a bit more tempo and crispness of play, a bit more accuracy on delivery, and you would be watching a really good, solid, strong and dangerous side.

[wwfan]

JWhy did Terry play RCB? Because Johnson and Upson are weak links and cannot be trusted to play on the same side.

My own opinion is because Upson plays left sided DC for his club and is also left footed. One of them has to play in the wrong position, and, footedness wise, it makes sense that they played this way around. It might be a covering decision, but that is conjecture. As is my reason

As for "Chelsea's Diamond" when you see Milner and Gerrard and Lampard getting in the way of Defoe and Rooney, with vast gaps down the right flank that Johnson is predictably failing to fill, it is hard to imagine that Capello was not "attempting" to play something very similar.

I don't think he was. Width was always a key part of his game plan in the qualifiers. However, he didn't take a left winger and lost trust in his right wingers, meaning he ended up playing four central midfielders. Square pegs in round holes. The midfield was also very flat, which it wouldn't have been in a diamond. There was no indication that Barry was being asked to drop deeper. Again, might be a lack of tactical discipline by the players, but it didn't look like a diamond to me.

In the last two games we have seen glimpses of Rooney, Lampard and Gerrard somewhere near "decent" but the rest of the side is simply not capable of supporting these players. Terry was incredibly poor today, but he was playing on a completely different side of the defence because of the fear of playing Johnson and Upson on the same side.

See the above about Terry. Gerrard was even worse than Terry today. I can't see how anyone could watch that and say Gerrard was 'decent' or even close to 'decent'.

You could go through the entire England team and pick flaws in everyone, but altogether I think there were some genuinely average players playing alongside side some genuinely average or poor performances from the key players. Johnson might not warrent scapegoating, but he is a seriously average Fullback in anything other than cutting inside and using his left peg around the box. Infact "average fullback" might be putting it nicely.

I don't watch enough of him to have an opinion about his overall quality. However, little I saw in this tournament suggested he was as bad as people suggest. He was horribly exposed by the inadequacy of others against Germany, but was pretty solid defensively in every game as far as I could see. I certainly can't think of a single moment when he cost the team.

[Zeffke888]

Rooney played well??? You've seen another match from him my guess... Since his injury in march it doesn't seem like he's 100% fit again... he really is struggling and haven't played even 1 good game this world cup...

[SFraser]

The thing about square pegs in round holes is that if you have enough of them you can do quite alot with your team.

I don't think Capello was ever playing a true diamond, but I have seen a lot of teams employing four central midfielders that are not true diamonds, or diamonds where players in central midfield are not central midfielders. Anelka or Malouda for Chelsea would be one good example, and Park + Fletcher for Manchester United another.

Capello's formation to me looked very much like these very English examples of shapes towards the back end of the season. A clear wide winger on one flank and a clear centreforward, with a much narrower "winger/widemidfielder" on the other flank allowing the attacking Fullback forward, while also playing very close to the second striker. Take the mirror image of the England shape and you have what looks to me exactly like the shape Chelsea were playing near the end of the season. Take the exact copy of the England shape and it's Manchester United, albeit with slight differences to the strike partnership.

Tactically I don't see the flaw in Capello's England side. It not only makes up for the lack of the genuine Left Wing players, but it should perfectly suit the players abilities and the players recent tactical experience of club football. It should be strong defending and attacking on the counter, strong in midfield, and with sufficient discipline of the Inside Forward position and sufficient creativity in either of the two "CM" positions it should be utterly strong in midfield in both defensive and attacking contexts.

Ofcourse when you see the performances then you can understand the flaws in the side, but tactically it is the kind of shape I would expect to be strong and very effective. And likewise Milner moving infield could be effect rather than cause, but you cannot deny 1: a lack of discipline, 2: a lack of positional/support sense, 3: a fundamental lack of quality in key areas (the only decent right wing cross all tournament went into the back of the net).

I don't think we are disagreeing here, but I don't think any player can escape criticism and I don't think criticism of the managers selection policies nor shape is fair, in my opinion. You can argue that Gerrard is not a Left Winger, but I don't see how on tactical grounds that shape should have failed the way it did. It should have had more than enough to track Ozil, double up on the flanks, and still leave the midfield equal and the defence outnumbering the forwards.

[phidelta42]

The Opta Premier League Team of the Season

27th April 2010

Glen Johnson, Liverpool

More successful crosses per 90 mins than any other defender

Created more goalscoring chances per 90 mins than any other defender in open play

2.19 completed dribbles per 90 mins is 0.83 more than any other defender

Same number of interceptions as Evra,

better tackling success rate than Evra,

more tackles attempted per game

'average' indeed, ah but he plays for liverpool ergo he's rubbish. I know stats aren't always great indicators but seriously the idea he can't defend is nonsense.

[SFraser]

The Opta Premier League Team of the Season

27th April 2010

Glen Johnson, Liverpool

More successful crosses per 90 mins than any other defender

Created more goalscoring chances per 90 mins than any other defender in open play

2.19 completed dribbles per 90 mins is 0.83 more than any other defender

Same number of interceptions as Evra,

better tackling success rate than Evra,

more tackles attempted per game

'average' indeed, ah but he plays for liverpool ergo he's rubbish. I know stats aren't always great indicators but seriously the idea he can't defend is nonsense.

Where is the statistic for number of times caught out of position? AWOL at the back post? Leaving too large a gap on his Inside Channel? Exposing Carragher?

There are lies, damn lies, then there are statistics.

[wwfan]

It's an interesting debate as to why the England shape collapsed. Prior to the first goal, which had nothing to do with shape, England were beginning to look superior. Keeping possession well, moving the ball around the pitch and generally looking solid if unthreatening.

However, once Germany scored, England's shape went AWOL. In FM terms, Gerrard started playing as an AMCL TQ, wandering all around the pitch and performing no defensive duties. Was this down to Gerrard's total lack of positional discipline or his remit? If the former, then Capello should have dragged him off or dressed him down. If the latter, then Capello is tactically culpable, as this completely exposed England's left flank. You cannot have a luxury attacking midfielder only covered by one MCd and a full back. You will, quite rightly, get slaughtered.

Gerrard's positioning did not just undermine the left flank, but also stopped Rooney from dropping into his most dangerous areas. Again, Capello should know that and should have done something about it. With Gerard drifting inside and Rooney operating as the FCL, England were unable to shift into the 4-5-1 you are talking about. Rooney was forced into higher positions, which isolated the from two from the midfield and killed the left flank as an attacking outlet. That meant only Gerrard was moving between the lines, and he was making a pig's ear of it.

Capello usually had Lennon, Wright-Phillips or Walcott playing high right and Heskey high centre. With Heskey very central, this allowed England to morph between 4-4-2, 4-5-1 and 4-3-3, as having these two players high created more central space for Rooney than Defoe/Milner can, which stopped Rooney and Gerrard getting in each other's way. Milner doesn't have the pace to frighten full backs, which meant he can't play as high. Defoe needed to go wide right and fulfil the right winger role, which would have freed Rooney up in the centre and allowed a runner to move up from central midfield. However, Defoe was far too immobile and rarely went wide. With Gerrard and, less so, Milner drifting centrally too often, this meant that the full backs had to be the extra men out wide. However, if they stepped up, that only left one player, Barry, covering the back two, which will get punished in modern football. Lampard was ostensibly the 2nd covering midfielder, which is not exactly his strength. He reacts too slowly to danger and is a yard off the pace.

The blame has to be either laid at Capello's or Gerrard's feet. Either Capello got the shape wrong and was then unable to work out how to fix it or Gerrard's tactical indiscipline let the team down. If the former, then Capello is not worth what he's being paid. If the latter, then Capello's not worth what he's being paid as he should have sorted it out and subbed or dealt with Gerrard. Add in Terry's incompetence and hero complex, the god awful decision making on set pieces, and the total lack of composure in the final third and you have a recipe for disaster.

My own opinion is that if Capello wanted Gerrard to play as a free spirited inside left, he needed to play a second covering MC. That would have freed up Cole and left more space for Rooney to exploit. A 4-2-3-1 would have fixed it, with Carrick and Barry being the DMCs, Gerrard, Lampard and Milner/Lennon/Wright-Phillips playing ahead of them and Rooney roaming up front. That would have worked. However, as it was, I don't think Gerrard was playing to plan and that he undermined the whole shape, which was, as you suggest, supposedly the 4-5-1/4-4-2 being commonly used in the English Premiership.

[wwfan]

Where is the statistic for number of times caught out of position? AWOL at the back post? Leaving too large a gap on his Inside Channel? Exposing Carragher?

There are lies, damn lies, then there are statistics.

Again, I think this is harsh. For Liverpool, Johnson plays alongside two DMCs and is required to take risks going forward, expecting the DMCs to fill in behind him as he pushes up. For England, certainly against Germany, he was having to go forward as everybody was getting sucked narrow. It wasn't his fault that he was ignored and bypassed time and time again.

In the end, I think this all goes back to Capello thinking he can win against top quality sides with two attacking full backs, three attacking midfielders, only one covering, semi-unfit holding midfielder, who doesn't really play that role for his club, and two slow DCs. I really don't think targeting Johnson is fair. Whether he is overrated or not, he wasn't at fault for any of Germany's goals or any goal conceded in the World Cup campaign. Focusing on him shifts the spotlight away from where it should be, which is on Capello's tactics and/or the tactical indiscipline of England's midfield.

[phidelta42]

Johnson has been criminally poor defensively all season and with an AMC and RW ahead of him, with an Inside Left and Left Wingback on the other flank he needs to learn to play a disciplined supporting game.

Johnson wasn't directly at fault for any of the 4 goals, but he was completely missing from every single move in the game in both attack and defence. You can't scapegoat Johnson when Terry was at fault for a huge amount of defensive problems, but it is crystal clear that the guy is utterly clueless when it comes to positioning, timing and reading the flow of a match.

Unlike Ashley Cole, Johnson is not an essential component of the attacking play down one flank, he is not necessary to provide width. This far more than his ability protects him from criticism. The team today was setup at the back to deal with the weakness of Johnson and Upson. Terry does not play RCB ever. Why did Terry play RCB? Because Johnson and Upson are weak links and cannot be trusted to play on the same side.

If Cole is vastly superior defensively then he should be the less attacking fullback for England. Johnson is arguably the more effective attacker of the two.

Johnson was playing a disciplined game. He was caught upfield once that I can remember, that was at 3-1. Both fullbacks were forward and Terry decided to try the hero stuff as mentioned elsewhere. He was let down by Terry, and has been let down by Carragher too at times in the prem. There have been games for Liverpool last season where Johnson didn't bomb forward at all. He does have a good understanding of when he can/should get forward

Terry was likely shunted to DCr for these reasons. He is right footed, Upson is left footed, he is more experienced and should be more able to adjust to the change than Upson. It is highly unlikely to have had anything to with Johnson. The guy has plenty of caps now and the defence has never been reshuffled to cover for him before. England's defensive record recently, in terms of clean sheets, is significantly worse when Johnson hasn't been available.

Of his weaknesses defensively, sometimes his concentration is not perfect, just like Rio. He isn't particularly dominant in the air, not many fullbacks are, and those that are are usually hopeless in possession.

He is physically gifted, having decent pace with superb balance and agility. His positional awareness is solid and he improved as the season went on. He has areas where he can improve but he is the best option England have by some distance and I wouldn't be at all suprised if he goes on to be a 100 cap England player.

[Guv'nor]

Said it above, Johnson was a liability defensively and Barry was the greatest lie ever sold! England needed bodies in the centre of the pitch, because frankly, they had nothing else to rely on but strength in numbers. Well and truly butchered and at the hands of a young, far from world-beating Germany squad, puts to rest talk of a Golden Generation. We haven't won anything for a reason, we're not good enough! Cappello, Maclaren, Eriksson, it doesnt matter, the gulf in class is obvious. Look at the Spaniards when they have the ball at feet, the movement of surrounding players, the confidence to take their man on, where is its reciprocation in our national side? Midfielders who can barely run and revert to raking longballs at the sign of pressure. World-class? Please. Every single one of the Spanish midfield would walk into our starting 11 and be given the captain's armband to secure their allegiance. How many of our Golden Generation could get into the Spanish midfield? The Dutch midfield? The Brazil, Argentina, German midfield? We are the greatest lie ever sold! 44 years of hurt and climbing! Theres nothing of note coming through the ranks, are under-21s were flogged by Germany too, grooming them for a similar fate at senior level no doubt. The sooner we stop seeing ourselves as world cup hopefuls, the sooner we can revel in achievements in keeping with our ability. We qualified from the group, welldone, quarters would've been an achievement. Semis? No chance!

[jim morrow]

Three reasons who can tell us why England cannot win WC :

1) Not to have an English coach for England is a shame for a "major" nation of Football. And choose an italian to coach English player is like hiring a Spanish coach for Germany. It's not really the same mentality, even a paradox.

2) Too many foreign players in English football so England team has lack of very good players in each position on the field.

3) Perhaps, one day in the far future, England will have a top-class goalkeeper.

[dz47]

Rooney played well??? You've seen another match from him my guess... Since his injury in march it doesn't seem like he's 100% fit again... he really is struggling and haven't played even 1 good game this world cup...

you're right. Rooney was absolutely terrible. While his movement and touch improved marginally in the last two games, his decision making was consistently attrocious. He also looked slow and more than likely unfit. THe lack of movement around him certainly didn't help, but for someone who is lauded as being a 'creative forward', he was shocking and totally devoid of any creativity or goal threat. To me he looked like he didn't even really care. Oh well, he no doubt collected a nice pay cheque making that Nike ad!

[NeJebi]

Three reasons who can tell us why England cannot win WC :

1) Not to have an English coach for England is a shame for a "major" nation of Football. And choose an italian to coach English player is like hiring a Spanish coach for Germany. It's not really the same mentality, even a paradox.

2) Too many foreign players in English football so England team has lack of very good players in each position on the field.

3) Perhaps, one day in the far future, England will have a top-class goalkeeper.

1) what are u talking about? name me ONE really good ENGLISH coach, who would be on the level of ''world class coaches'' today? Name me an english manager who won something SIGNIFICANT in latest years?

Biggest thing an english manager did in the past years is the final of UEFA cup with McLaren (and we all know what kind of noob he proved to be on the England bench lol)

the truth is all english managers are noobs, no mocking, no kidding

Also please name me ONE english manager who's coaching outside england and having some pretty good results in one of the 5 most strongest european leagues

Jesus man even Alex Ferguson is from the Island but in the end he's scottish

2) lacks very good players in EACH position? are u blind or something? maybe in SOME positions, but TERRY is (or was?) considered one of the best defenders in the world? Carragher is pretty good in the center together with Terry, Ashley Cole is one of the best left backs in the world, Johnson is a noob

I'm not going to waste any words on one of the best pairs of central midfielders in the world like Lampard and Gerrard, same goes for Rooney

3) I completely agree with

and now may I add a 4 after correcting you

4) after u finish naming me world class english managers, I want u to tell me WHEN was england a REAL CONTENDER for the WC? Jesus they only won it once(and oh look on their home ground with a goal/non goal)

Before each world cup the entire nation is liek : cmon we can win it, England is mightyyyy and all that ahahah, look at your history first, it's all there, they're like losers in their blood

[Zeffke888]

Really wwfan,

no offense and I know you know a lot of tactics but I don't get it when you say England was looking to become superior right before the first goal... The germans were far superior in the whole first 30 minutes, there wasn't one good combination of england, they didn't create any space, players were standing still and the germans ruled the midfield by far. Then they started to create chances as well and England collapsed further...

[crouchaldinho]

Match stats from yesterday's game:

GER 				ENG
17(7) 	Shots (on Goal)		19(9)
7 	Fouls 			6
4 	Corner Kicks		6
4 	Offsides 		2
48% 	Time of Possession 	52%
1 	Yellow Cards		1
0 	Red Cards 		0
6 	Saves 			2

[crouchaldinho]

From The Independent:

The German manager, Joachim Löw's, interpretation of the game included an acknowledgement that England had been done an injustice. "Yes, as far as I could see from the television replays, this ball was across the line. It should have been awarded and given as a goal," he said. But Löw said that he had targeted England's defence as a weakness.

"We knew that the midfielders – Gerrard and Lampard – always support the forwards and that their midfield would be open," he said. "There would be spaces. Our objective was to set Terry up with [Miroslav] Klose to force him to come out of the defence. We knew the full-backs would be very much to the side, and that would create space that we could penetrate. We could have been 3-0 up in the first half. We did penetrate them.

"We knew that we would have to try and tackle the English early on in midfield and take away any space they would have beyond midfield. We knew they might become impatient and lose their discipline. We did that successfully.

[jim morrow]

Really wwfan,

no offense and I know you know a lot of tactics but I don't get it when you say England was looking to become superior right before the first goal... The germans were far superior in the whole first 30 minutes, there wasn't one good combination of england, they didn't create any space, players were standing still and the germans ruled the midfield by far. Then they started to create chances as well and England collapsed further...

Right Zeff, Germany was superior in technical and physical points with lot of pressure and closing down. Surprisingly, they stopped to play after second goal and let England came back in the game perhaps trying to play counter attack.

[zychan1]

1) what are u talking about? name me ONE really good ENGLISH coach, who would be on the level of ''world class coaches'' today? Name me an english manager who won something SIGNIFICANT in latest years?

Biggest thing an english manager did in the past years is the final of UEFA cup with McLaren (and we all know what kind of noob he proved to be on the England bench lol)

the truth is all english managers are noobs, no mocking, no kidding

Also please name me ONE english manager who's coaching outside england and having some pretty good results in one of the 5 most strongest european leagues

Jesus man even Alex Ferguson is from the Island but in the end he's scottish

2) lacks very good players in EACH position? are u blind or something? maybe in SOME positions, but TERRY is (or was?) considered one of the best defenders in the world? Carragher is pretty good in the center together with Terry, Ashley Cole is one of the best left backs in the world, Johnson is a noob

I'm not going to waste any words on one of the best pairs of central midfielders in the world like Lampard and Gerrard, same goes for Rooney

3) I completely agree with

and now may I add a 4 after correcting you

4) after u finish naming me world class english managers, I want u to tell me WHEN was england a REAL CONTENDER for the WC? Jesus they only won it once(and oh look on their home ground with a goal/non goal)

Before each world cup the entire nation is liek : cmon we can win it, England is mightyyyy and all that ahahah, look at your history first, it's all there, they're like losers in their blood

Nejebi you might not agree with the points jim has made, but try to be decent when trying to get your points across.

1) I agree that England lack top quality managers, but managers like Roy Hodgson, Martin O'Neill and Harry Redknapp are no mugs to say the least. Yes they might not have won anything significant, but that is more down to the resources which they have at their disposal as none of them are at the very "top" clubs. In all likelihood if the English FA were to decide not to retain Capello, I think these would be the top English candidates to replace them. If one of them takes charge at Liverpool, well they can't do any worse than Benitez this season eh?

2) and 3), it's true that the English have great players, but they need to be able to function in a coherent system at this level. That system was not in place through out the entire tournament. Also Capello's 4-4-2 didn't really help tactically as it made the team far too predictable for my liking. Johnson is an easy scape-goat, but would you have preferred Neville or Carragher? Truth is, there is a dearth of good RBs in England and indeed in modern football because of how important they have suddenly become to the team. Don't forget that thsi used to be the "water-carrier" position in the team. England are actually quite blessed to have the Cole-Johnson pair compared to the other teams in the tournament.

4) You contradict yourself here. How can you say that England have some of the best players in the world, yet not challenge for the World Cup? Yes they have only won it once, but that's the same with France while the Netherlands and Spain have never won it. So no, past glories don't count for much. It's the current batch of players that you have at your disposal that counts and by your reckoning, we have one of the best teams.

[SirCliveWolfe]

1) Not to have an English coach for England is a shame for a "major" nation of Football. And choose an italian to coach English player is like hiring a Spanish coach for Germany. It's not really the same mentality, even a paradox.

Yes but those nations are good t football, we are like South Korea (only worse) and need a foreign manager to get the best out of our players as 1. we do not have a top-class coach and 2. we do not have top-class players.

Although maybe the best man for the job is big Sam? Maybe if we kicked Ozil and co off the pitch yesterday we could have won?

2) Too many foreign players in English football so England team has lack of very good players in each position on the field.

I will correct this for you;

England has lack of average (let alone very good) players in any position on the field as English coaching is a joke meaning that there are 'too many' foreign players in English football.

3) Perhaps, one day in the far future, England will have a top-class goalkeeper.

I agree here, this again shows what a joke English coaching is... WTF is Sir Brooking doing?

1) what are u talking about? name me ONE really good ENGLISH coach, who would be on the level of ''world class coaches'' today? Name me an english manager who won something SIGNIFICANT in latest years?

Biggest thing an english manager did in the past years is the final of UEFA cup with McLaren (and we all know what kind of noob he proved to be on the England bench lol)

the truth is all english managers are noobs, no mocking, no kidding

Also please name me ONE english manager who's coaching outside england and having some pretty good results in one of the 5 most strongest european leagues

Jesus man even Alex Ferguson is from the Island but in the end he's scottish

Roy Hodgson would be the only English candidate with a CV good enough to become the next England manager... not that I think he should.

and now may I add a 4 after correcting you

4) after u finish naming me world class english managers, I want u to tell me WHEN was england a REAL CONTENDER for the WC? Jesus they only won it once(and oh look on their home ground with a goal/non goal)

Before each world cup the entire nation is liek : cmon we can win it, England is mightyyyy and all that ahahah, look at your history first, it's all there, they're like losers in their blood

I believe it was 1970, probably a better bet than in 1966, England were actually quite good under a pragmatic and talanted manager... but then a Polish keeper stopped us qualify for 1974 and Ramsey go the push...

Oh and the press response;

Blaming foreigners (Cappello & foreign Prem players) and the fact that the players lacked passion or are overpayed.

[NeJebi]

True, Roy Hodgson is the only one that comes to my mind, besides he's in my heart because he was in Inter Milan, and he's a very charismatic person, but in the end I think he's a little too old, and when it comes to make the final step - he's a loser, UEFA cup final lost with Inter and now with Fulham(true he made a good season with them and Atletico has more quality..but still..like Cuper when it comes to make the final decisive step

A younger emerging good english manager would be nice, but I dont see too much of 'em on the horizon

[John_Cro]

Hello, englishmen.

Here are the resoluts of John CRo's votes:

1) You need to start learning how to respect all other nations in this WC. No metter how big or small they are. Also, you lose a lot of energy and time on wrong things instead of thinking about opponent.

2) One of the biggest problems with "rich" teams is that they have to much superstars and noone to work for them on the field. If you saw brazil players in 2006 and now you see my point.

3) Algeria played 0-0 with you just by doubiling your FB and WF. That means that you don't have a midfield although you have S.Gerrard and F_Lampard.

The reason why you don't have midfield is the fact that all your players are overprecieted. Look, for example, Lampard. He has Essien in Chelsea, the best player in tht position.

Look at Gerrard, he has mascherano, also one of the best. If you look england, you only have heargraves who is out, while barry and carrick are ordinary players.

4) I also think that Capelo didn't get the best of this team. You'll see why if you understand his concept of playing on the wings. You only have 1 decent winger and the rest are not so good. Why not playing without them and putting your players in midfield where you have some very good players? Why not playing only with rooney like in man utd?

Hope it helps, cheers

[SCIAG]

1) what are u talking about? name me ONE really good ENGLISH coach, who would be on the level of ''world class coaches'' today? Name me an english manager who won something SIGNIFICANT in latest years?

Biggest thing an english manager did in the past years is the final of UEFA cup with McLaren (and we all know what kind of noob he proved to be on the England bench lol)

the truth is all english managers are noobs, no mocking, no kidding

Also please name me ONE english manager who's coaching outside england and having some pretty good results in one of the 5 most strongest european leagues

Jesus man even Alex Ferguson is from the Island but in the end he's scottish

2) lacks very good players in EACH position? are u blind or something? maybe in SOME positions, but TERRY is (or was?) considered one of the best defenders in the world? Carragher is pretty good in the center together with Terry,

I want u to tell me WHEN was england a REAL CONTENDER for the WC? Jesus they only won it once(and oh look on their home ground with a goal/non goal)

Before each world cup the entire nation is liek : cmon we can win it, England is mightyyyy and all that ahahah, look at your history first, it's all there, they're like losers in their blood

Hodgson got to the UEFA Cup final, as you mention. Harry Redknapp has a couple of trophies to his name, admittedly domestic.

I don't think Carragher and Terry can be described as a good defensive partnership. They are very similar players. Carragher has made a career out of making mistakes and then making up for them with block tackles. Terry is slightly more rounded, but he isn't King or Ferdinand.

Hodgson had good results abroad, but with so many clubs, our managers tend not to go abroad. I agree that they are below par anyway. Our two best tactical managers (Hodgson and Coppell) are the reserved type, and Coppell hates travel.

We were contenders in 1990... but I agree, since 1990 the hype around the side has been completely disproportional. It doesn't only come from England fans though, other nations hype us too.

Really wwfan,

no offense and I know you know a lot of tactics but I don't get it when you say England was looking to become superior right before the first goal... The germans were far superior in the whole first 30 minutes, there wasn't one good combination of england, they didn't create any space, players were standing still and the germans ruled the midfield by far. Then they started to create chances as well and England collapsed further...

I agree with wwfan, England moved the ball well early on, though lacked the final ball and penetration.

Nejebi you might not agree with the points jim has made, but try to be decent when trying to get your points across.

1) I agree that England lack top quality managers, but managers like Roy Hodgson, Martin O'Neill and Harry Redknapp are no mugs to say the least. Yes they might not have won anything significant, but that is more down to the resources which they have at their disposal as none of them are at the very "top" clubs.

Martin O'Neill isn't English

I'll expand in a bit, I need to go. I'll also say who I'd like in the next England squad like heathxx asked.

[heathxxx]

Said it above' date=' Johnson was a liability defensively and Barry was the greatest lie ever sold! England needed bodies in the centre of the pitch, because frankly, they had nothing else to rely on but strength in numbers. Well and truly butchered and at the hands of a young, far from world-beating Germany squad, puts to rest talk of a Golden Generation. We haven't won anything for a reason, we're not good enough! Cappello, Maclaren, Eriksson, it doesnt matter, the gulf in class is obvious. Look at the Spaniards when they have the ball at feet, the movement of surrounding players, the confidence to take their man on, where is its reciprocation in our national side? Midfielders who can barely run and revert to raking longballs at the sign of pressure. World-class? Please. Every single one of the Spanish midfield would walk into our starting 11 and be given the captain's armband to secure their allegiance. How many of our Golden Generation could get into the Spanish midfield? The Dutch midfield? The Brazil, Argentina, German midfield? We are the greatest lie ever sold! 44 years of hurt and climbing! Theres nothing of note coming through the ranks, are under-21s were flogged by Germany too, grooming them for a similar fate at senior level no doubt. The sooner we stop seeing ourselves as world cup hopefuls, the sooner we can revel in achievements in keeping with our ability. We qualified from the group, welldone, quarters would've been an achievement. Semis? No chance![/size']

C'mon Guv... paragraphs please... my eyes hurt!

Although I agree with the clear ability that's there in the Spanish side, interestingly, the Spanish aren't overly impressed by their performances so far.

No doubt, the quality of their play to watch, is always pleasing to the eye. However, the Spanish media are asking a lot of questions about their final balls and their seeming inability to put teams to the sword.

The Honduras match was probably the best example. Later on in the game, it looked more like a friendly game, where Spain seemed to be content doing the tricks and the fanciful things, instead of actually increasing the scoreline.

I don't think you can make direct comparisons between English players and Spanish players, certainly not a club level. Both sets of players often excel for their club sides, yet it always seems to be the case that the English players fail to live up to their expectations in the major tournaments. Let's not forget though, last European Championships aside, Spain have been in exactly the same situation, if not worse.

Perhaps it's simply the case that here in Spain, although their support is passionate to borderline religious, Spanish fans seem to be waiting for their team to fail, as they have at so many World Cup finals.

In England, there seems to be the mentality that we should, or deserve to, win the World Cup, every time the team is there. In my lifetime, the only team I could honestly say were good enough, was the Italy 1990 squad under Bobby Robson. Any other time, since the first World Cup I remember watching in 1982, I don't think any English side has come close to the quality of the eventual winners.

[Declyn]

I don't think the English are as bad as people now say they are. Also, it's not fault of England in general but moreso of the FA who allowed consortiums to take over clubs, throw money in and demand instant success. This is only achievable with foreigners because building a solid base from the youth system upwards requires time. Also, rivalry between clubs is much bigger in English leagues than in the Bundesliga which doesn't help forming bonds within a team. Look at the German squad: Lahm, Schweinsteiger, Müller, Klose, Podolski, Janssen all play (or have played previously) for Bayern, they are are used to each other. Neuer, Özil, Müller, Badstuber, Marin, Kroos all have played the u21 Championships together. The whole national team (pool) basically comes from only 3 clubs (Bayern, Stuttgart, Hamburg) with the odd one in between. They are much more gelled than the scattered English team who not only play all in different clubs but also **** around (literally in Terry's case) with each other via the tabloids every week.

[SFraser]

The blame has to be either laid at Capello's or Gerrard's feet. Either Capello got the shape wrong and was then unable to work out how to fix it or Gerrard's tactical indiscipline let the team down. If the former, then Capello is not worth what he's being paid. If the latter, then Capello's not worth what he's being paid as he should have sorted it out and subbed or dealt with Gerrard.

My own opinion is that if Capello wanted Gerrard to play as a free spirited inside left, he needed to play a second covering MC. That would have freed up Cole and left more space for Rooney to exploit. A 4-2-3-1 would have fixed it, with Carrick and Barry being the DMCs, Gerrard, Lampard and Milner/Lennon/Wright-Phillips playing ahead of them and Rooney roaming up front. That would have worked. However, as it was, I don't think Gerrard was playing to plan and that he undermined the whole shape, which was, as you suggest, supposedly the 4-5-1/4-4-2 being commonly used in the English Premiership.

I would agree that Gerrard has been a significant tactical problem for his managers, with his lack of discipline compounded by his action man style of play and "hero complex" as you so aptly put it.

However to criticise Capello in this respect you need to give fair analysis to his alternative options. Dropping Defoe or Heskey in favour of a completely out-of-form and thoroughly unreliable Carrick who has been completely fit all season, performed very well in precisely three games all season one of which was for England, and has been a complete and utter passenger and fundamental liability in every single other match he has played?

For all Gerrards positional/discipline/delivery flaws I do not see any other valid replacement that would not bring equivelant deficiencies but less of an overall performance. If Ferguson has failed to bring the best out of Carrick and did not trust him to play towards the end of this season, I do not see how Capello can trust him.

Deficiencies in performance mask the question of risk versus reward that managers take. I remember a certain 1-4 match at Old Trafford a few seasons back that was mired in individual ineptitude. It was one of those matches where the result asked questions of superb team and manager, while elevating a very average side and manager to a rediculous level of reputation. The side that was thrashed went on to complete a historic 28 game unbeaten run in European Cup football, while the victors swiftly went on to collapse into ignomy and humiliating failure.

Is Ferguson worth the money he is paid? I think you could ask any club side in football they would state that it is worth paying Ferguson anything if he was their manager. Liverpool obviously despise the man, but even that most rabid and fervant of fansites RAWK secretly wish he was managing them. For "ol' Whiskey nose" to come in the top 3 of a RAWK poll on the greatest managers in the game means he is just about on a par with Jesus in terms of ability and popularity.

For me individual performances throughout this World Cup mask any real valid criticism of Capello as a manager. The qualifying stage was a walkover, the most disappointing element was not ending with maximum possible points. The World Cup was a disaster, with four games in two weeks exposing the very worst of individual performances to the full spotlight of the world.

Perhaps Capello is not worth the money he is paid. I do not think England will find a better manager in the next half decade if they sack him, and I do not think a fortnight of utter fail is the basis upon which to judge any manager. Sometimes it is good to be humbled and to be educated, to be taught certain lessons. Marcello Lippi himself thought it would be an "interesting match" to meet England in the Final, yet his team went home in the group stage. Is Lippi a failure as a manager?

If the English FA have any sense at all they will not sack Capello, and then I look forward to Capello's response as a manager. That will tell us all far more about the man and the team and the national game than two weeks at the World Cup.

[SCIAG]

I would certainly go with that. Although England have players that perform very well for their respective clubs in the Premiership, there's too many of them who fail to perform at any level above average, for the international team.

Along with Adam Johnson, who else would you go with, that's preferably under 25, mindful of the European Championships, then the next World Cup?

Given the tactical variances on view at this tournament, what sort of tactical systems do you think would suit the national team more?

I want Rodwell, Hart and Johnson in the team immediately. Rodwell could replace Barry. I feel that not only is he better at holding the midfield, he's a more rounded player going forward as well. I expect him to break into the Everton side this year.

I would preferably like to see a couple of the younger strikers become established. I don't really want strikers who are never going to be better than mediocre like Carlton Cole in the England side. I'd rather have someone like Danny Welbeck or Daniel Sturridge getting the odd match, though I suppose they aren't playing for their clubs.

I'd also look to blood a centre back- Cahill or Shawcross- and a right back in Onuoha.

[zychan1]

Hart should be first choice from now, with Green as backup or Foster if his form picks up. Then Green can be 3rd choice. Huddlestone, Ashley Young, Adam Johnson and Agbonlahor should all be given a chance to impress. At the back Gary Cahill, Micah Richards, Onuoha, Baines, Gibbs, Dawson, Curtis Davis, Shawcross, Wheater and Steven Taylor should all be given chances to prove their worth. Even Lescott should be given a chance if he returns to form, along with Jagielka. Theo Walcott of course, maybe Andy Carroll who can be that big TM. Tomkins, Spence, Rodwell and Wilshere are still abit young for Euro 2012, but should be around the team come 2014.

If Hargreaves returns to match fitness, we'll finally have a decent midfield destroyer. Hence I'll go with a 4-2-3-1 where

--------------- Hart -------------

Johnson -- Cahill -- Dawson -- Cole

---- Hargreaves --- Huddlestone --

Lennon ------- Milner ------ Young

------------- Rooney ------------

Bench: Foster, Richards, Gibbs, Rodwell, Walcott, Adam Johnson, Agbonlahor

which on paper is a pretty good side. They may not be world beaters, but could certainly fit into a cohesive system with good subs to bring on. Hargreaves/Rooney/Milner can be captain and we're all set. Granted we'll need a coach who'll be willing to really chop up the side and break up the golden generation, but that's why we pay Capello 6 million pounds right?

[isuckatfm]

Originally posted by wwfan

2-0: Having let Muller run at Cole only minutes before without offering any support, Gerrard again fails to track his forward run down the flank. Cole is left having to deal with two players, pulling Terry and Upson towards the left. Johnson has to cover the centre, leaving Podolski in space. Gerrard's fault.

Completely disagree. Here’s why

Number 1 Calmness at the back

Cole looking for positive options for the throw, none came so he goes back to Upson. Upson being a lefty takes a touch that boxes him in but still there are a couple of obvious ways out of that without hitting an aimless ball down the channel.

Number 2 Pressing as a team

Partially Gerrard but definitely Barry.

Upson clearance is bouncing. Note Rooney starting to move to press. Barry stagnant, Gerrard the same.

Now Gerrard starts to move but too late and Lahm (?) can take control and turn with ease to slip it to Khedira who has acres of room and no pressure as Barry sat still. Gerrard is doing exactly what he should be doing (although a bit too late and lacking in gusto in my opinion). The German attacker Muller is in no way, shape or form his responsibility.

Yes Barry appeared to have a defined role in that game in terms of Ozil/sitting deeper but he’s already separated from the back 4 and assumed Ozil is behind him so should leave him to the back 4. His half/half means that Khedira has plenty of room to receive, turn and pick a pass.

So if Barry reads what is happening (and Gerrard to a lesser extent) and they press as a team behind Rooney then they could have boxed Germany in and forced them backwards. This then allows the English line to push up and deny the space in between the lines for Ozil to operate in. Yes that leaves the ball over the top as a possibility but throughout this tournament balls over the top have struggled due to the high bounce the new ball seems to take. Having said that after the fact always helps in terms of criticism as no doubt if they got hit with a ball over the top then pushing up would be the tactical error.

/continued below

[isuckatfm]

Number 3 The system as it appears to be

Again I lay the blame with Barry (and to a lesser extent Johnson). First off let me state the lack of pace may have been an issue but what I am describing is reading of the game and intent. Secondly the movement of the Germans was superb and as crouchaldinho’s quote showed was an intended pattern of attack.

I don’t blame the back 4 except for maybe they should have squeezed up more instead of letting the Germans dictate and allowing Ozil to sit in that hole. I realise I am disagreeing with a man who played at the highest level as a centre half in one of the most celebrated football teams of all time which makes my disagreement redundant, but meh.

Now to Barry. Muller circled in blue has just slipped the ball off to Ozil, Barry is circled in red. Without a shadow of a doubt Barry should be recognising the hole created by Terry getting drawn out, and he should react. But he just does not recognise the danger. He only really reacts to moments like that when the runner is close enough to him (you can see that in this game and off the top of my head a stand out moment against Algeria)

So if Barry does one thing or the other, namely press up the pitch or cover for Terry, then maybe that goal never happens. To blame Gerrard for that goal is something I cannot get my head around as pressing the full back when the striker presses the centre back is exactly what he should be doing (in my opinion). In that system it is Barry’s responsibility to cover for the CBs when they get dragged wide, and it is definitely not Gerrard’s responsibility to track the opposition winger (no more than it was Milner’s job to be covering for Johnson at the far post).

As an afterthought the more I look at it the more suspect Cole becomes as well in terms of effort. Maybe he thought Terry would deal, I don’t know, but he was left behind by a German player who wanted that ball.

Hindsight aided armchair punditry ftw!!! (or ftl depending on your view)

[Guv'nor]

Gareth Barry is the greatest lie ever sold to mankind! How can you ask a midfielder who couldn't hold a custard cream, to hold your midfield. Well and truely beaten and many a player disgraced, revealed for the bog-standard that they are.

[phidelta42]

Gareth Barry is the greatest lie ever sold to mankind! How can you ask a midfielder who couldn't hold a custard cream' date=' to hold your midfield. Well and truely beaten and many a player disgraced, revealed for the bog-standard that they are.[/quote']

To be fair to Barry he was unfit and had little to no help from Lampard. How anybody expected him to deal with perhaps the WCs best player so far on his own is beyond me.

[John_Cro]

I apologize in advance, but your team is exactly a prototype of a snob team. It has all the false great stars that do nothing. Just like real madrid and perhaps that explains the hole thing about loosing.

You should try to find some players that aren't obssed with their hair style like Becham and Johnson or with their ego, like Rooney and Gerrard.

Cheers

P.S. Get another coach. This one is 20 years short of today tactics just lke Slaven Bilic is in my team.

P.S. You don't need to look any further. Look at Germans, they win a WC every 20 years and everyone knows why.

[SCIAG]

At the back Micah Richards, Curtis Davis, and Steven Taylor should all be given chances to prove their worth.

I can't agree with the selection of those three. Richards is the footballing Monty Panesar. No progression in his career. He's worse defensively than Johnson, and going forward too. I think he's a workhorse and little more.

Davies isn't getting in the Aston Villa side. If it was Chelsea, maybe I could forgive him, but if he isn't good enough to play for Aston Villa, he isn't good enough for England IMO. Maybe if he gets a move away...?

Steven Taylor has pretty major concentration issues, even in the Championship. I very much doubt he'll ever be an international defender.

[heathxxx]

I want Rodwell, Hart and Johnson in the team immediately. Rodwell could replace Barry. I feel that not only is he better at holding the midfield, he's a more rounded player going forward as well. I expect him to break into the Everton side this year.

I would preferably like to see a couple of the younger strikers become established. I don't really want strikers who are never going to be better than mediocre like Carlton Cole in the England side. I'd rather have someone like Danny Welbeck or Daniel Sturridge getting the odd match, though I suppose they aren't playing for their clubs.

I'd also look to blood a centre back- Cahill or Shawcross- and a right back in Onuoha.

Rodwell, Hart, Johnson, Cahill, Shawcross... all should certainly be introduced to the side sooner, rather than later. The more time they get between now and the European Championships, the more options England have available, which by that time, will be more experienced options.

One area I believe England are certainly lacking, is in top-level strikers. Defoe is certainly a good player, but when compared to the other international sides, I wouldn't place him amongst the top ten, certainly. That's something to be concerned about, because England need other options. Either alongside, or instead of Rooney, if he's unavailable.

Paramount to any future success, is the ability to encompass tactics, that suit the pool of players available. Preferably tactics and roles that the players are more used to playing with their clubs.

Someone mentioned earlier in this thread, that one of the key factors for the German side, is that players seem to be played in exactly the same roles they would for their club sides.

I've always believed that anyone earning the sort of money players do these days, should be able to walk on water, or at least be able to adapt more easily tactically, or even perform the basics of football. That aside though, I think that regardless of the "success" of the qualification for the World Cup, Capello was (and is) very stubborn when it comes to tactical flexibility.

Yes, he's got a superb track record, but one has to question the suitability of an approach which the majority of top clubs, or international sides, don't consider using. Football evolves, tactics evolve.

So alongside the opportunity for some of the younger or "next generation" players to gain experience, I would also hope that Capello (if he's to remain manager), at least experiments tactically more often.

If he's not prepared to do that at all, then I would stand amongst those who think the national team would be better off managed by someone else. Who that would be... is another debate entirely.

[davehanson]

One of the things that I was talking about at work today, with an Italian colleague, was England's lack of 'evil' streak.

He said that, quite rightly, this years Italian team was rubbish, but in years gone past - when they did have a great team - there was always one or two players that could put in questionable challenges and be smart about it.

When you look back on it both Johnson and Barry had good chances to stop the play for both the 3rd and 4th German goals. However, instead of making a tackle, which yes would probably have resulted in free-kicks and bookings for the players involves they let the play continue and Germany scored (twice).

Now, I am obviously not condoning foul play, but, would other sides have done it and should England have?

[John_Cro]

One of the things that I was talking about at work today, with an Italian colleague, was England's lack of 'evil' streak.

He said that, quite rightly, this years Italian team was rubbish, but in years gone past - when they did have a great team - there was always one or two players that could put in questionable challenges and be smart about it.

When you look back on it both Johnson and Barry had good chances to stop the play for both the 3rd and 4th German goals. However, instead of making a tackle, which yes would probably have resulted in free-kicks and bookings for the players involves they let the play continue and Germany scored (twice).

Now, I am obviously not condoning foul play, but, would other sides have done it and should England have?

I read a few post's and they all make some true facts. In my opinion, you need new intake of players, good DMC, solid DC when Terry-Rio gets injured and that's about it. You have everything else. Ah, yes, I almost forgot, you need Mourinho.

[Guv'nor]

With all due respect, even at fullest fitness, Gareth Barry is not a holding midfielder. Nigel De Jong who does the hatchet man job at Eastlands allowing Barry to do his poor man's Xabi Alonso impersonation!

To be fair to Barry he was unfit and had little to no help from Lampard. How anybody expected him to deal with perhaps the WCs best player so far on his own is beyond me.

[John_Cro]

One more reason why you lost. Compare German and English first leagues. In England, there are best players from all over the world cause rich Arap's and mafia Russian's can buy everything as long as they pay tax. Country wants only tax money from football industry, nothing more or greater then that because you live in capitalism.

On the other hand, Germans also live in capitalism, but they are mean mother****ers, their clubs play mostly germans. If you look at current squad, it's all young players from their league that get everyday training, and so ordinary players with routine and heart become excellent.

[phidelta42]

Ozil likely would have ran rings round Makelele, Senna, Mascherano etc if they were left on their own. He's too clever and too quick. To have taken him out of the game would have required a specialist man marker with great pace. Even if we had such a player, we would need another defensive minded player in there to cover the areas that Ozil dragged his marker out of to prevent there being acres of space for runners from the German midfield.

Barry was asked to take care of Ozil which he doesn't have the physical attributes to do, he was also expected to cover the German runners from deep, and furthermore to be some kind of deep lying playmaker. That is simply nonsensical expectations to have had of Barry.

[John_Cro]

Ozil likely would have ran rings round Makelele, Senna, Mascherano etc if they were left on their own. He's too clever and too quick. To have taken him out of the game would have required a specialist man marker with great pace. Even if we had such a player, we would need another defensive minded player in there to cover the areas that Ozil dragged his marker out of to prevent there being acres of space for runners from the German midfield.

Barry was asked to take care of Ozil which he doesn't have the physical attributes to do, he was also expected to cover the German runners from deep, and furthermore to be some kind of deep lying playmaker. That is simply nonsensical expectations to have had of Barry.

Yes, it's true but barry isn't the only player to blame. All of them played very bad, for example rooney. HE did nothing as well as majority of other players

[charlstonbigspuds]

I would agree that Gerrard has been a significant tactical problem for his managers, with his lack of discipline compounded by his action man style of play and "hero complex" as you so aptly put it.

I dont think gerrard can be blamed as wwfan said,you have slightly man u tinted glasses on regarding liverpool as well SFraser!Liverpool had a good 11 the year they finished 2nd,the squad has always been the problem and benitez weakness,average team is unfair.

Gerrard is doing what he's always done under capello playing on the left a starting position only free to roam they have both commented on this in past.Against USA he was in his natural position he was disciplined prob MOM only a fair performance tho as he prefers a DM alongside to free him.

Now back on the left when barry came back and as was said before algeria game to a more attacking role,now ive been moved out to the left myself from centre midfield and its a natural incalnation to go and 'get on the ball' and influence the game when starved of the ball,hence why at time you see strikers coming deeper and to get the ball when there team is under pressure.

So i think the blame should lie with capello,as much as like him and strangely would like to see him stay on as England manager(providing he becomes more flexible).His single mindness towards 442 when no top national/club team continues to play it was so wrong,and i think after Terry press conference he was never changing as he needs to look in charge,

If he had played Barry in DM role behind lampard n gerrard in a mourinho 4-3-3 i dont see how it couldnt be better everyone is in familiar roles inc rooney who had such a great season for united in lone striker role,so to put the blame on gerrard is unfair only IMO.

[D Wotherspoon]

A 4-4-2 against a 4-2-3-1 struggles to work, especially with slow cumbersome centre-backs like Upson and Terry. They didn't know whether to get tight to Ozil or let Barry take him, causing confusion the whole way through the match.

Low's strategy really worked out well, with Podolski and Muller keeping the width, it really allowed Klose and Ozil to stretch and penetrate the poor Upson and Terry partnership. It was great tactical planning from Low to be honest and Capello must have known it was coming yet he did nothing about it.

There's a good look at what worked on this blogpost that people might be interested in reading, even though it just says the same thing that what people are saying.

http://timhi.wordpress.com/2010/07/01/germany-england-report/

[charlstonbigspuds]

A 4-4-2 against a 4-2-3-1 struggles to work, especially with slow cumbersome centre-backs like Upson and Terry. They didn't know whether to get tight to Ozil or let Barry take him, causing confusion the whole way through the match.

Low's strategy really worked out well, with Podolski and Muller keeping the width, it really allowed Klose and Ozil to stretch and penetrate the poor Upson and Terry partnership. It was great tactical planning from Low to be honest and Capello must have known it was coming yet he did nothing about it.

There's a good look at what worked on this blogpost that people might be interested in reading, even though it just says the same thing that what people are saying.

http://timhi.wordpress.com/2010/07/01/germany-england-report/

Thats what i cant understand surely both players must have been told(and should know themselves) not to lose their shape chasing ozil n klose around,1st two goals terry getting attracted to ozil for the 1st and both for the 2nd. Its a cliche but really was 'schoolboy defending' and seems to be a case of letting the heart rule the head(too pumped up n tactically naive).

Although i believe terry is over-rated anyhow without ferdinand and carvalho alongside him he is exposed and lucky hes been surrounded by quality centre back partners throughout his career.