The Big One. England v Australia. The Ashes. Cricket. Spoliers.

[sebs]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Zvonimir Boban:

But yeah, Afridi's debut must be the bestest debut in the entire history of crikeet shirley? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

entire history of sport. probably. it's so far past the next best as well

[pengedragon]

just seen warne dropping pieterson on the news again

absolute shocker

[Scatter]

the selection of tait for the final test absolutely baffled me. how many overs did he bowl in the second dig? six? seven? it just screamed gillespie at OT all over again. ponting had absolutely no faith in either of them, so they shouldn't have been in the side. unless of course he didn't say that at the selection meeting. macgill should definitely have played in both matches.

that's not a slight against tait, who i think has a future, but it'll be as the understudy to lee. the pair of them simply can't play together in a four man attack - having two bowlers who will only bowl in six or seven over spells, puts too much of the workload on the other two bowlers.

ok... the long promised humble pie...

i said:

- we'd win the series three or four - one.

- you wouldn't be able to consistently take twenty wickets against us

- your top order was nowhere near good enough. tbf, this series was dominated by the ball. it was more or less your middle to lower order that caused more problems with the bat. but "nowhere near good enough" probably qualifies for a

Marcus Trescothick -

Before the series: Too static in his footwork, too prone to wafting outside off. Not a top class opener.

Now: Same ffs. How he was nearly the top scorer in this series beggars belief. I've given the reasons for this line of thought often enough of the past few pages. Suffice to say, if we'd have taken the chances he offered, you'd all be calling for his head.

Andrew Strauss -

Before: Flat track bully.

Now: There's class here Jim. Looked all at sea early doors, and I thought I was going to be proven right. But he showed admirably mental fortitude and technique to iron things out, and eventually become a valuable wicket. Still questionable against spin, but he's going to be/is a classy opener.

Michael Vaughan -

Before: The danger man.

Now: It's hard to say. His and Pontings series (with the bat that is) were so similar it's uncanny. Both looked well capable of scoring big every time they came to the crease, and yet managed to throw away starts on a number of occassions despite looking in form. Obviously still a threat to any bowling line up around on his day. And while his captaincy was unnecessarily defensive at times, he blatantly out skippered Ponting - by a looong way. He deserves as much credit as Fletcher for having the team so well prepared and planned as well.

Ian Bell -

Before: A flat track bully with an obvious technical flaw.

Now: I can't believe the flack I copped from some of you over Bell. If he stops walking across the crease whilst playing his defensive shots though (if your head is moving sideways, so is your bat), he will turn into a handy middle order player. I don't think England should drop him just yet.

Kevin Pietersen -

Before: Obviously a talent, but I wasn't sure he'd handle the pressure.

Now: Errrrr... yeah, he did. I was less impressed with his innings at the Oval than some. In such a pressure situation, some of the shots he played were questionable. That he rode his luck was beyond doubt. That he made us pay for it (unlike a certain Mr Trescothick), was a mark of a talent. A lot of similarities between him, and the Matthew Hayden of three or four years ago. He has a presence at the crease, and will just back himself no matter what.

Andrew Flintoff -

Before: I thought he was being a little over hyped tbh. I knew he was a good all rounder, but had doubts he'd perform with the bat, as he was going to be asked to do far too much with the ball.

Now: Weeeeeell... what a fracking player. I wish he was an Aussie.

I still think he is being asked to do too much, but his ability to handle the workload impressed me more than anything. Purged any questions about his ability to play spin with some lovely footwrok and commanding straight driving.

Geraint Jones -

Before: Looked a poor mans Gilchrist with both bat and gloves, although still a decent enough player.

Now: I'm not sure. His batting was vital at times, but his glovework was undeniably poor.

Ashley "Wheelie bin" Giles -

Before: The king of spain. How apt. A pro who would consistently bowl a good line, with good control, but not threatening enough.

Now: I am absolutely convinced the biggest criticism of Vaughans captaincy is his inability to get the best out of Giles. I don't think he sets appropriate fields for him, or uses him at the best times. Giles is better than ten wickets at fifty, and I thought he bowled better than those numbers too.

Matthew Hoggard -

Before: After South Africa, I thought he was the danger man with the ball.

Now: Disappointing series. But he's a real horses for courses bowler. If the ball is swinging, he's dangerous, if not, it's gimme time. I think Vaughan utilised him more intelligently than probably any other bowler.

Steve Harmison -

Before: I laughed when you lot claimed he was the best quickie in the world.

Now: He was over-rated for sure. Had a disappointing series, but it's easy to see he will cause top class batsmen trouble when he's in the mood.

Simon Jones -

Before: I liked him, but thought he was inconsistent, and bowled too many four balls.

Now: Who cares about the odd four ball when you can swing a sixty over old ball like he can? Unquestionably the quickie of the series, and if he stays fit, he'll run rampant in India where the ball reverses even more. Wouldn't be surprised to see him being widely touted as the best quickie going around in a few years. Good pace, good engine, and bowled pretty intelligently too.

so. is it 2007 yet?

[Al3]

scatter you will be liked even more now because of that post, any predictions for the 2007 one

[Scatter]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Al3:

any predictions for the 2007 one </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

yeah, we'll win three or four one

heh heh

[Al3]

agree wih you

[Jolly Rancher]

As a longtime cricket fan I can only say I am glad to be a big part of this and I will cherish this all my life. You people have NO idea how much all of this really means to me. I mean the atmosphere and all, I never thought I could see the day.

I havent posted in this thread because its too full of amateurs who dont know the score (Sebs and others) and disrespected Kevin Pietersen who undoubtedly is going to such a superstar that it will be his name thats on cricket computer games just a little while down the road.

If you have any questions about cricket, just ask. I will be glad to help out and make you less ignorant of the fine art that is cricket. A lot of you people are new fans who have been attracted by this series and your knowledge might be a little sketchy, but really theres no need to be ashamed, we all started at some point and I wont be patronising to you at all. We are all humans after all even though I must admit that I am indeed a superior human as my charitable attitude towards gloryhunters as well as my willingness to let said apes tap into my infinite cricket knowledge show.

[sebs]

i dont think pietersen has problems with playing under pressure, it's when he's not playing under pressure that's the problem

[Scatter]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jolly Rancher:

As a longtime cricket fan I can only say I am glad to be a big part of this and I will cherish this all my life. You people have NO idea how much all of this really means to me. I mean the atmosphere and all, I never thought I could see the day.

I havent posted in this thread because its too full of amateurs who dont know the score (Sebs and others) and disrespected Kevin Pietersen who undoubtedly is going to such a superstar that it will be his name thats on cricket computer games just a little while down the road.

If you have any questions about cricket, just ask. I will be glad to help out and make you less ignorant of the fine art that is cricket. A lot of you people are new fans who have been attracted by this series and your knowledge might be a little sketchy, but really theres no need to be ashamed, we all started at some point and I wont be patronising to you at all. We are all humans after all even though I must admit that I am indeed a superior human as my charitable attitude towards gloryhunters as well as my willingness to let said apes tap into my infinite cricket knowledge show. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

WUM?

[Raybouldinho]

JR

[Rocky Rockstar]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Scatter:

Simon Jones -

Before: I liked him, but thought he was inconsistent, and bowled too many four balls.

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You SO said he wasnt good enough for test cricket you lying fecker I remember it well - think it was in the England / Bangladesh thread, you said we should follow suit with you and play just 4 bowlers as "people like Simon Jones are clearly not good enough for test cricket". Deny it all you like, i know the truth

[Rocky Rockstar]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jolly Rancher:

As a longtime cricket fan I can only say I am glad to be a big part of this and I will cherish this all my life. You people have NO idea how much all of this really means to me. I mean the atmosphere and all, I never thought I could see the day.

I havent posted in this thread because its too full of amateurs who dont know the score (Sebs and others) and disrespected Kevin Pietersen who undoubtedly is going to such a superstar that it will be his name thats on cricket computer games just a little while down the road.

If you have any questions about cricket, just ask. I will be glad to help out and make you less ignorant of the fine art that is cricket. A lot of you people are new fans who have been attracted by this series and your knowledge might be a little sketchy, but really theres no need to be ashamed, we all started at some point and I wont be patronising to you at all. We are all humans after all even though I must admit that I am indeed a superior human as my charitable attitude towards gloryhunters as well as my willingness to let said apes tap into my infinite cricket knowledge show. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Such arrogance - youre not an aussie are you?

[Scatter]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Rocky Rockstar:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Scatter:

Simon Jones -

Before: I liked him, but thought he was inconsistent, and bowled too many four balls.

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You SO said he wasnt good enough for test cricket you lying fecker I remember it well - think it was in the England / Bangladesh thread, you said we should follow suit with you and play just 4 bowlers as "people like Simon Jones are clearly not good enough for test cricket". Deny it all you like, i know the truth </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

it's in THIS thread. look for yourself. post lords especially, when everyone was crying out for him to be dropped, wicom, myself and a few others said he shouldn't be.

[BBB]

Pietersen on SSN - "I'm going to celebrate hard for the next erm 2 weeks"

I wish I could go today

[Rocky Rockstar]

you lie Scat, you lie like a flat fish!

[Rocky Rockstar]

And the post im referring to was definitely before any of the tests, and probably before any of the one dayers too.

[Scatter]

And so, the day after the night before begins...

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">

Well, we would have retained the Ashes if we'd held the catches. Or played MacGill. Or we hadn't taken the light. Or they hadn't taken the light. Or we'd dumped hopeless Ponting as captain. Or Gilly had, just for once this series, played a vice-captain's knock. Or the rest of our middle-order hadn't collapsed like a Louisiana bungalow. Or we'd stolen Pietersen from South Africa instead. Or we'd kept Kasprowicz and Gillespie for the Fifth Test (just kidding). Or all four matches after Lords had been rained out. Or...

But enough of that. Now our first national priority must be winning the Ashes back. And I was delighted to see that our Government, led as it is by a cricket tragic, had already started recruiting good new players even before the series ended, from the best possible source - England. This was the state of The Sun's website at about 2am. Promise I didn't Photoshop anything.

Can someone make sure Andrew Flintoff sees that, please? Heck, after yesterday, we'd even take Ashley Giles. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">

Aussies still the best: Ponting

September 13, 2005 - 9:51AM

Even though they looked second best for most of the Ashes series, rival captains Ricky Ponting and Michael Vaughan agree the Australians are still the world's No.1 Test team.

After leading Australia to its first Ashes series loss since 1987, Ponting said the 2-1 knockout by the official No.2 team did not dethrone Australia as the premier team.

"I still rank England second," Ponting said after today's fifth Test draw at the Oval gave England the series and the Ashes urn.

"We are regarded as the number one team in the world for what we have achieved over a long period of time. You can't be judged on that in one series."

But he concedes if England continues its winning ways, which include six consecutive series wins in the last 16 months, Australia's place at the top will be in jeopardy.

"England are a definite threat. They are number two now and after this result they have got even closer to us as the number one team," he said.

"If they keep playing the same cricket they have played this series they will very easily get even closer."

When Australia beat the previously all-conquering West Indies in 1995, captain Mark Taylor claimed world champion status for his team, but not so Vaughan today.

Magnanimous in convincing victory, Vaughan said his team had to emulate Australia by winning for a number of years in all parts of the world to take over the official top billing in the International Cricket Council's complex rankings.

England went into the Ashes series trailing Australia by a substantial 21 ranking points (132 to 111) and has now closed to within eight points (127-119).

It won't have to wait long for its chance to edge closer to Australia's ranking points when it tours Pakistan and India next month.

"Australia, because they are No.1," Vaughan said when asked which was the best Test team in the world.

"Australia has been beating teams home and away for a long time.

"We've won six series on the trot now but we haven't been to the subcontinent and won yet.

"We have an opportunity this winter when we go to Pakistan and India, I'm sure if we play good cricket over there, the rankings may change."

Australia's man of the series Shane Warne also believed Australia still clung tenuously to top spot.

"I think we are still probably the best side in the world," Warne said.

"We have done it over a period of time both home and away against every opposition and every condition that has been put up against us.

"There is no reason England can't do that. If they play like they have this series a few times down the track when they have played everyone home and away, they could be the best side in the world.

"If England continue to play like they have in this series, they are going to beat everyone they come up against." </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">

Search for our own Freddie

September 13, 2005 - 2:07PM

As the spectre of Andrew Flintoff continues to loom large, Australia will spend between now and the next Ashes campaign combing the country for an emerging allrounder.

While they are rummaging, the selectors might also want to keep an eye out for potential replacements for Shane Warne and Glenn McGrath, who are no certainties to be playing in the 2006-07 series.

Having felt both barrels of Flintoff's lethal all-round game this tour, the search is on for a player Australia can develop into a genuine middle order batting option and a frontline bowler.

"It would be nice if we could find an Andrew Flintoff somewhere," said Australian skipper Ricky Ponting in reference to the player of the series in England's 2-1 Ashes series victory.

"I'm sure we'll be looking as soon as we get back home."

As Australia starts farewelling some of its ageing stars over the next two years, England is banking on retaining much of the side that played this series for its trip to Australia, starting in about 14 months.

England captain Michael Vaughan expected Flintoff, Steve Harmison, Kevin Pietersen, Simon Jones, Matthew Hoggard and Andrew Strauss to be available the summer after next, as the key quintet would still all be aged under 30.

By contrast, Warne, McGrath, Adam Gilchrist, Matthew Hayden, Justin Langer and Damien Martyn will all be over 35 next Ashes series, with their injury, interest and form status less assured.

Martyn and Hayden, provided they are selected, need to produce big home series against the West Indies and South Africa this coming summer to be any chance of rectifying their disappointing returns against England.

If they cannot, then the current Australia A tour of Pakistan, which contains batsmen like Mike Hussey and Brad Hodge, could provide some of the new faces in Australia's senior team over the coming year.

Ponting admitted it would be difficult rejuvenating the side if it maintained a reliance on older players.

Australia's best players this series were Warne, 36 today, McGrath, 35, and Langer, 34.

"The older guys have been the ones who have performed the best, so how do you move them on?" Ponting said.

"It has become difficult there and as I said when we arrived here it doesn't really matter how old guys are so long as they are performing and playing great cricket.

"Shane has done that throughout this tour but there are not too many more who can say that we have done that."

Ponting admitted to some concern over the dearth of back-up bowling options behind Warne, who took 40 wickets this series at 19.92, and McGrath, who claimed 19 at 23.15 despite missing two Tests through injury.

Australia tried Jason Gillespie, Brett Lee, Michael Kasprowicz and Shaun Tait as back-up bowlers behind its two champions, and of that quartet Lee's average of 42.10 runs a wicket was the best.

Queenslanders Shane Watson and Andrew Symonds fit the bill as allrounders, but neither's bowling is considered strong enough to make them anything more than a change bowler at the moment. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">

Warne won't commit to next Ashes battle

September 13, 2005 - 4:29PM

Shane Warne's cricketing future is up in the air with the superstar spinner not ready to commit to playing in Australia's attempt to regain the Ashes in 14 months time.

Warne was named Australian player of the Ashes series on his 36th birthday on Wednesday, having taken 40 wickets and contributed strongly with the bat.

His performances demonstrated how vital he remains to the Australian team and were more remarkable because his marriage had ended in scandal on the eve of the series.

But the world's record Test wicket-taker is contemplating whether it's time to end an extraordinary Test career or whether to soldier on to the 2006/07 Ashes series in Australia.

"With international cricket you've got to take the whole package," Warne said.

"It's the living out of a suitcase, it's the living in hotels, it's the touring, it's the time away from your family, your children. It's doing warm-ups, it's training, it's all those sorts of things.

"You can't just say I want to keep playing and I just want to play, you've got to take the sponsors' functions, you've got to do all those sorts of things as well.

"So you've got to look at the whole package and then weigh up what's the most important thing to you.

"At the moment in my life, my kids are the most important, I haven't seen them for a lengthy period of time probably in the last 10 months and I really am missing them.

"I've got a couple of weeks left here for Hampshire and then I'll get home and see them which will be great.

"I've played for a long, long time and I'm not going to rush any of those decisions.

"I'm going to wait till I get home and weigh everything up and just keep playing and try and enjoy myself.

"Hopefully in 18 months time if I'm still around, then look I'd love the opportunity to try and regain the Ashes in Australia. If I'm not, well I'm not."

Reflecting on his Ashes series performance, Warne made reference to his marriage split which followed newspaper allegations of extra-marital affairs by the cricketer.

"I didn't set any individual goals but I'm very proud of the way I've gone about it and the way I've played and more importantly than the statistic side of things is personally what I've had to go through, which nobody will understand," Warne said.

"That's what life is like, you get knocked down, you just try and get up and try and do the best you can given the circumstances.

"I gave absolutely every ounce I've got and I can't do anymore than that." </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Shane Warne is ffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffb beyond words. Please don't retire...

[Al3]

atleast until the next ashes, i implore him

[pengedragon]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">dig? six? seven? it just screamed gillespie at OT all over again. ponting had absolutely no faith in either of them, so they shouldn't have been in the side. unless of course he didn't say that at the selection meeting. macgill should definitely have played in both matches.

that's not a slight against tait, who i think has a future, but it'll be as the understudy to lee. the pair of them simply can't play together in a four man attack - having two bowlers who will only bowl in six or seven over spells, puts too much of the workload on the other two bowlers.

ok... the long promised humble pie...

i said:

- we'd win the series three or four - one.

- you wouldn't be able to consistently take twenty wickets against us

- your top order was nowhere near good enough. tbf, this series was dominated by the ball. it was more or less your middle to lower order that caused more problems with the bat. but "nowhere near good enough" probably qualifies for a

Marcus Trescothick -

Before the series: Too static in his footwork, too prone to wafting outside off. Not a top class opener.

Now: Same ffs. How he was nearly the top scorer in this series beggars belief. I've given the reasons for this line of thought often enough of the past few pages. Suffice to say, if we'd have taken the chances he offered, you'd all be calling for his head.

Andrew Strauss -

Before: Flat track bully.

Now: There's class here Jim. Looked all at sea early doors, and I thought I was going to be proven right. But he showed admirably mental fortitude and technique to iron things out, and eventually become a valuable wicket. Still questionable against spin, but he's going to be/is a classy opener.

Michael Vaughan -

Before: The danger man.

Now: It's hard to say. His and Pontings series (with the bat that is) were so similar it's uncanny. Both looked well capable of scoring big every time they came to the crease, and yet managed to throw away starts on a number of occassions despite looking in form. Obviously still a threat to any bowling line up around on his day. And while his captaincy was unnecessarily defensive at times, he blatantly out skippered Ponting - by a looong way. He deserves as much credit as Fletcher for having the team so well prepared and planned as well.

Ian Bell -

Before: A flat track bully with an obvious technical flaw.

Now: I can't believe the flack I copped from some of you over Bell. If he stops walking across the crease whilst playing his defensive shots though (if your head is moving sideways, so is your bat), he will turn into a handy middle order player. I don't think England should drop him just yet.

Kevin Pietersen -

Before: Obviously a talent, but I wasn't sure he'd handle the pressure.

Now: Errrrr... yeah, he did. I was less impressed with his innings at the Oval than some. In such a pressure situation, some of the shots he played were questionable. That he rode his luck was beyond doubt. That he made us pay for it (unlike a certain Mr Trescothick), was a mark of a talent. A lot of similarities between him, and the Matthew Hayden of three or four years ago. He has a presence at the crease, and will just back himself no matter what.

Andrew Flintoff -

Before: I thought he was being a little over hyped tbh. I knew he was a good all rounder, but had doubts he'd perform with the bat, as he was going to be asked to do far too much with the ball.

Now: Weeeeeell... what a fracking player. I wish he was an Aussie.

I still think he is being asked to do too much, but his ability to handle the workload impressed me more than anything. Purged any questions about his ability to play spin with some lovely footwrok and commanding straight driving.

Geraint Jones -

Before: Looked a poor mans Gilchrist with both bat and gloves, although still a decent enough player.

Now: I'm not sure. His batting was vital at times, but his glovework was undeniably poor.

Ashley "Wheelie bin" Giles -

Before: The king of spain. How apt. A pro who would consistently bowl a good line, with good control, but not threatening enough.

Now: I am absolutely convinced the biggest criticism of Vaughans captaincy is his inability to get the best out of Giles. I don't think he sets appropriate fields for him, or uses him at the best times. Giles is better than ten wickets at fifty, and I thought he bowled better than those numbers too.

Matthew Hoggard -

Before: After South Africa, I thought he was the danger man with the ball.

Now: Disappointing series. But he's a real horses for courses bowler. If the ball is swinging, he's dangerous, if not, it's gimme time. I think Vaughan utilised him more intelligently than probably any other bowler.

Steve Harmison -

Before: I laughed when you lot claimed he was the best quickie in the world.

Now: He was over-rated for sure. Had a disappointing series, but it's easy to see he will cause top class batsmen trouble when he's in the mood.

Simon Jones -

Before: I liked him, but thought he was inconsistent, and bowled too many four balls.

Now: Who cares about the odd four ball when you can swing a sixty over old ball like he can? Unquestionably the quickie of the series, and if he stays fit, he'll run rampant in India where the ball reverses even more. Wouldn't be surprised to see him being widely touted as the best quickie going around in a few years. Good pace, good engine, and bowled pretty intelligently too.

so. is it 2007 yet? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

sounds like he's had enough there, cant blame the fella

top man

hope he goes

[Tenner Huey]

Warne rules tbf

[Scatter]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Scatter:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by alvaro:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Rocky Rockstar:

Is McGrath better than Harmison on paper? Of course! But if Harmison fires on all cylinders and McGrath doesnt who's the better bowler? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

McGrath would still <STRIKE>probably</STRIKE> be better </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

fixed </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Scatter:

the question is whether you have the bowlers to take 60 wickets in the three test you'll need to win the series. if we were to lose two of warne, mcgrath or gillespie, i'd say the same thing would be said about us too... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Rocky Rockstar:

So Scatter what you're trying to say is that you're gonna be uber f*cked when Warne & McGrath retire?

Btw Ian Bell at number 4 >>>>>> * you just wait & see </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Cesc15:

Nevertheless if Australia loses this series I'll eat my thongs......... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

heh

[Raybouldinho]

Its nice to hear the Aussies are on a talent search for someone like Freddie

[Rocky Rockstar]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Scatter:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Rocky Rockstar:

Btw Ian Bell at number 4 >>>>>> * you just wait & see </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

And what a pair of half centuries they were

[Scatter]

anyways... our own morning after the night before.

change as applicable -

Aside from Warne and Flintoff, your man of the series for each side: Simon Jones - Brett Lee

The opposing player who went up most in your estimations (cricketing wise): Andrew Strauss

Your teams player who went up most in your estimations (cricketing wise): Brett Lee

Opposing player who went up most in your estimations (as a person - for the craic etc): Andrew Flintoff

Same again but with your teams player: Shane Warne

Most memorable moment: Easy, Flintoff and Lee at the conclusion to the Edgbaston test.

The defining moment of the series: Glenn McGrath treading on the ball at Edgbaston, and then Ponting sending you in half an hour later. In hindsight, the ashes were probably lost right then.

[Rocky Rockstar]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Matt Raybould:

Its nice to hear the Aussies are on a talent search for someone like Freddie </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Shame they aint NO ONE like Freddie

[Scatter]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Rocky Rockstar:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Scatter:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Rocky Rockstar:

Btw Ian Bell at number 4 >>>>>> * you just wait & see </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

And what a pair of half centuries they were </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

[Bliss Seeker]

anyone going to the parade?

it's going past my offices.. might go down and sing some songs, and give them a cheer or two.

[Rocky Rockstar]

Aside from Warne and Flintoff, your man of the series for each side: Simon Jones - Brett Lee. Honourable mentions to KP, Strauss & Justin Langer.

The opposing player who went up most in your estimations (cricketing wise): Brett Lee

Your teams player who went up most in your estimations (cricketing wise): Simon Jones

Opposing player who went up most in your estimations (as a person - for the craic etc): Brett Lee

Same again but with your teams player: Freddie Flintoff

Most memorable moment: Harmison's slower ball to Clarke which was so so vital given what happened the next day.

The defining moment of the series: McGrath's injury, Ponting captaincy & Harmison getting Kasper out.

[Al3]

Scatter

Aside from Warne and Flintoff, your man of the series for each side: Simon Jones - Brett Lee

The opposing player who went up most in your estimations (cricketing wise): Pietersen

Your teams player who went up most in your estimations (cricketing wise): Brett Lee

Opposing player who went up most in your estimations (as a person - for the craic etc): Andrew Flintoff

Same again but with your teams player: Brett Lee Scatter's choice was close, but i would have to take Lee's bowling at the end yesterday. Everyone knew what the result was going to be, but he still bowled like he was possessed by a demon or something . Truly mind-blowing

The defining moment of the series: Ponting sending you in half an hour later and Gillespie being picked for the 3rd match.

[Haz]

I must say I am bewildered by all the people eulogising Brett Lee, as though smiling a lot a being a good bloke makes him a great cricketer. His wickets came at over 41 ffs, 9 worse even that a patchy Harmison.

This series has only confirmed my long held view that he is a luxury bowler who only ever delivers one decent spell at best in a match - yet people remember those vividly because it is exciting seeing someone charge in and ripping it at 96mph, and tend to forget the diet of bilge he serves up in all his other spells.

[pengedragon]

i am sat here in work a little bit dazed, i think its starting to sink in now and my mind keeps wandering back through the series

definitely going to take a stroll down to trafalgar square at lunchtime to see what i can see

oh and our resident aussie is on leave today

[Philip Rolfe]

Aside from Warne and Flintoff, your man of the series for each side. Simon Jones, Brett Lee.

The opposing player who went up most in your estimations (cricketing wise): Simon Katich

Your teams player who went up most in your estimations (cricketing wise): Kevin Pietersen

Opposing player who went up most in your estimations (as a person - for the craic etc): Shane Warne

Same again but with your teams player: Ashley Giles

Most memorable moment: Simon Jones' inswinger to Michael Clarke at OT, what a ball

The defining moment of the series: The two run win giving England not only a lead, but confidence and impetus.

[wycombe]

Aside from Warne and Flintoff, your man of the series for each side: Lee and Jones S

The opposing player who went up most in your estimations (cricketing wise): Warne. he's the greatest sportsperson I've ever seen.

Your teams player who went up most in your estimations (cricketing wise): Fred

Opposing player who went up most in your estimations (as a person - for the craic etc): errr Warne i guess

Same again but with your teams player: Jones S, he quite clearly is a little **** who annoys the opposition so much

Most memorable moment: THAT over from Fred

The defining moment of the series: THAT Saturday at Edgbastion from Fred.

[Rocky Rockstar]

Final series averages:

<pre class="ip-ubbcode-code-pre">

Australia in England, 2005 Test Series Averages

Australia v England

Australia Batting and Fielding

Name Mat I NO Runs HS Ave SR 100 50 Ct St

JL Langer 5 10 1 394 105 43.77 58.63 1 2 2 -

RT Ponting 5 9 0 359 156 39.88 59.63 1 1 4 -

MJ Clarke 5 9 0 335 91 37.22 54.38 - 2 2 -

GD McGrath 3 5 4 36 20* 36.00 63.15 - - 1 -

ML Hayden 5 10 1 318 138 35.33 46.97 1 - 10 -

SK Warne 5 9 0 249 90 27.66 70.53 - 1 5 -

SM Katich 5 9 0 248 67 27.55 46.79 - 2 4 -

B Lee 5 9 3 158 47 26.33 65.02 - - 2 -

AC Gilchrist 5 9 1 181 49* 22.62 71.82 - - 18 1

DR Martyn 5 9 0 178 65 19.77 53.13 - 1 4 -

MS Kasprowicz 2 4 0 44 20 11.00 67.69 - - 3 -

SW Tait 2 3 2 8 4 8.00 29.62 - - - -

JN Gillespie 3 6 0 47 26 7.83 21.55 - - 1 -

Australia Bowling

Name Mat O M R W Ave Best 5 10 SR Econ

RT Ponting 5 6 2 9 1 9.00 1-9 - - 36.0 1.50

SK Warne 5 252.5 37 797 40 19.92 6-46 3 2 37.9 3.15

GD McGrath 3 134 22 440 19 23.15 5-53 2 - 42.3 3.28

B Lee 5 191.1 25 822 20 41.10 4-82 - - 57.3 4.29

SW Tait 2 48 5 210 5 42.00 3-97 - - 57.6 4.37

SM Katich 5 12 1 50 1 50.00 1-36 - - 72.0 4.16

MS Kasprowicz 2 52 6 250 4 62.50 3-80 - - 78.0 4.80

JN Gillespie 3 67 6 300 3 100.00 2-91 - - 134.0 4.47

MJ Clarke 5 2 0 6 0 - - - - - 3.00

England Batting and Fielding

Name Mat I NO Runs HS Ave SR 100 50 Ct St

KP Pietersen 5 10 1 473 158 52.55 71.45 1 3 - -

ME Trescothick 5 10 0 431 90 43.10 60.27 - 3 3 -

A Flintoff 5 10 0 402 102 40.20 74.16 1 3 3 -

AJ Strauss 5 10 0 393 129 39.30 57.79 2 - 6 -

SP Jones 4 6 4 66 20* 33.00 67.34 - - 1 -

MP Vaughan 5 10 0 326 166 32.60 60.82 1 1 2 -

GO Jones 5 10 1 229 85 25.44 57.97 - 1 15 1

AF Giles 5 10 2 155 59 19.37 50.65 - 1 5 -

IR Bell 5 10 0 171 65 17.10 45.35 - 2 8 -

SJ Harmison 5 8 2 60 20* 10.00 84.50 - - 1 -

PD Collingwood 1 2 0 17 10 8.50 22.07 - - 1 -

MJ Hoggard 5 9 2 45 16 6.42 19.65 - - - -

England Bowling

Name Mat O M R W Ave Best 5 10 SR Econ

SP Jones 4 102 17 378 18 21.00 6-53 2 - 34.0 3.70

A Flintoff 5 194 32 655 24 27.29 5-78 1 - 48.5 3.37

MJ Hoggard 5 122.1 15 473 16 29.56 4-97 - - 45.8 3.87

SJ Harmison 5 161.1 22 549 17 32.29 5-43 1 - 56.8 3.40

AF Giles 5 160 18 578 10 57.80 3-78 - - 96.0 3.61

PD Collingwood 1 4 0 17 0 - - - - - 4.25

IR Bell 5 7 2 20 0 - - - - - 2.85

MP Vaughan 5 5 0 21 0 - - - - - 4.20

</pre>

[wycombe]

wow, Martyn, Katich and Gilchrist just not good enough when you look at the averages.

[Haz]

Aside from Warne and Flintoff, your man of the series for each side: Simon Jones - Justin Langer

The opposing player who went up most in your estimations (cricketing wise): Michael Clarke - did a whole lot better than I had expected, clearly learnt a lot about playing here during his (largely unsuccessful) stint with Hampshire. I like his attitude at the crease and on the field in general.

Your teams player who went up most in your estimations (cricketing wise): Simon Jones - finally shown a degree of trust and confidence by his skipper, he stepped up several classes. If fit and in form he should do seriously well in Pakistan.

Opposing player who went up most in your estimations (as a person - for the craic etc): Matthew Hayden - funny one this, since one of the enjoyable aspects of the summer was watching him being exposed as a flat track bully with a ludicrously inflated average. Yet this frailty seemed to strip away the seering arrogance he displayed on the field to his opponent, and even showed some compassion; when Strauss was hit by Lee at Old Trafford Hayden was one of the first guys in there to comfort him and make sure he was okay, and that after Strauss had been heavly involved in the ball throwing contretemps earlier in the one dayers. Also you had to applaud the pure courage of his hundred.

Same again but with your teams player: It was no surprise that Flintoff proved such a likeable figure, so I'd go for Hoggard who refuses to take himself at all seriously. You can see him on the boundary, shoulders shaking as he laughs at the banter from the crowd, or yesterday just grinning at Lee when the latter got worked up over something or other in his final spell.

Most memorable moment: Honourable mention to the Harmy slower ball, but for me it was Strauss' catch off Gilchrist, largely cos I was sat directly behind Strauss when it happened and it was beyond a doubt the most electrifying moment of sport I have ever witnessed in person.

The defining moment of the series: Ponting putting England in at Edgbaston

[Al3]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Haz

This series has only confirmed my long held view that he is a luxury bowler who only ever delivers one decent spell at best in a match - yet people remember those vividly because it is exciting seeing someone charge in and ripping it at 96mph, and tend to forget the diet of bilge he serves up in all his other spells.

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

he is a shock bowler, his bowling has been good, but it is the field placings to him, that have been bad. He has also gotten wickets of no balls and atleast a catch dropped of his bowling, but still he kept on coming back with a smile and that is why, i think people have seen him as a great cricketer.

[wycombe]

you wouldn't want Lee to lead your attack when McGrath and Warne are gone though would you.

[Al3]

well unless, ACB has some sort of daibolical plan to clone players, i think Lee would become the obvious choice

[Rocky Rockstar]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Wicom:

wow, Martyn, Katich and Gilchrist just not good enough when you look at the averages. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

And how uber f*cked would/will the Aussies be when McGrath & Warne retire - the only bowlers who averaged under 40 ffs!

[Scatter]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Wicom:

you wouldn't want Lee to lead your attack when McGrath and Warne are gone though would you. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I dunno about that. I see where Haz is coming from, but Lee bowled a thousand times better than his stats suggest.

Like I said on the last page, I though Giles bowled better than ten at fifty would suggest, for Lee it was much more marked. The lack of support in the field affected Lee more than any bowler in the series. Dropped catches, and poor field settings cost him dearly. The final innings at Trent Bridge - amongst others - showed he is clearly capable of leading the attack.

[Haz]

He needs to have 2 other high quality, controlling seamers around him to be able to get away with his profligacy. Not Tait then

[Andrew Jolly]

don't know if this has already been posted, but surely Andrew Flintoff needs to be crowned king of the world or something:

http://content-uk.cricinfo.com/engvaus/content/image/219058.html

[Scatter]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Wicom:

wow, Martyn, Katich and Gilchrist just not good enough when you look at the averages. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

really, 40 is considered a pass mark for a series average (well, it is by us anyway) generally. so all bar langer had below par series in that regard.

[Scatter]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Haz:

He needs to have 2 other high quality, controlling seamers around him to be able to get away with his profligacy. Not Tait then </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

tait and lee cannot be in the same four man attack. a five man attack definitely, but not four. it would be asking far too much of the other two bowlers...

[Philip Rolfe]

Randomly, because I signed him on ICC, what's Paul Rofe like?

[wycombe]

40 is considered test class, above 50 makes you world class is what I've always seen said.

[wycombe]

i was looking at the australian domestic averages last night and was amused to see Bevan dominated them last year

[sebs]

Aside from Warne and Flintoff, your man of the series for each side: simon jones - justin langer

The opposing player who went up most in your estimations (cricketing wise): brett lee

Your teams player who went up most in your estimations (cricketing wise): kevin pietersen

Opposing player who went up most in your estimations (as a person - for the craic etc): brett lee

Same again but with your teams player: simon jones

Most memorable moment: flintoff and simon jones put on 50 for the last wicket at edgbaston - the six flintoff hit over the pavillion esp.

The defining moment of the series: second ball at lords. COME ON THEN

[GingerFurball]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Scatter:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Wicom:

you wouldn't want Lee to lead your attack when McGrath and Warne are gone though would you. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I dunno about that. I see where Haz is coming from, but Lee bowled a thousand times better than his stats suggest.

Like I said on the last page, I though Giles bowled better than ten at fifty would suggest, for Lee it was much more marked. The lack of support in the field affected Lee more than any bowler in the series. Dropped catches, and poor field settings cost him dearly. The final innings at Trent Bridge - amongst others - showed he is clearly capable of leading the attack. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'd agree with that - his second spell in the 4th innings was almost unplayable.

Averages don't tell the entire story - Lee deserved more than the 20 wickets he took, and would doubtless have conceded less runs had Ponting decided on having a third man.

As for the Australians search for an all-rounder like Flintoff - it's going to be nigh on impossible - there are plenty of all rounders who are good/great batters and handy with the ball (Kallis) or good/great bowlers who are handy with a bat (Pollock) - what makes Flintoff different is that his bowling is good enough to be picked on that alone, but even if he was bowling like Strauss, his batting is also good enough to merit inclusion in the side. If Kallis forgot how to bat all of a sudden, I don't know if South Africa would pick him for his bowling, and vice versa with Pollock.