The Official English National Football Team Thread

[skybluedave]

Quick look at Wiki suggests Austria, Italy, Spain and France U19's also contain players from English clubs. I wonder if they are trying to block them aswell?

[jmr]

Apart from the Blackburn defender who is?

I can understand the concerns if they are due to play a whole season.

I don't know, my point was it shouldn't matter if you are a regular or not, you should be allowed to go.

[aggressive minor]

Yes I agree you should be allowed to. But I can see why if a player has a whole season ahead of him, the club wouldn't want them to go.

[el sid]

My mum loved the film Mad Max...

Hahahaha fantastic

[pouncer]

Might be a bit controversial, but I think it's time to start moving these U19 tournaments to the winter, during the regular season. It's not uncommon, but it is rare for an U19 player to feature regularly in a team enough for this to be a problem, surely? It's not a major problem but, as far as I'm aware, it's entirely possible for a player to go quite literally four years without any kind of break. Any kind of extended playing time (especially for a player under 20 years of age) can often do more harm than good.

[NICK_GIFF]

A couple more excellent articles from Martin Samuel for you all to ponder. The last bit of the second one is particularly revealing/frightening!

Forget the kidology... England must start producing total footballers

You win nothing with kids, said Alan Hansen, and nobody has let him forget it. If Germany progress beyond Spain at this World Cup, expect him to be mockingly reminded of that famous quote again.

The irony is Hansen wasn’t wrong. Germany arrived at the tournament with the youngest squad beyond Ghana and North Korea and, now established as the form team, it is understandable that great attention is being paid to the freshness of players such as Mesut Ozil and Thomas Muller. There is a lesson here for all, we are told, and particularly England. Yet a stellar youth team is often a triumph of happenstance. Manchester United have not changed procedure substantially in the last 20 years, but have never produced a group of players as strong as David Beckham, Paul Scholes, Gary Neville, Phil Neville and Nicky Butt. The odd one or two come through, but never five at once.

For all we know, this may be Germany’s moment now. Their system works, obviously, but the quality of the raw material could be the bounty of a single point in time. In England, we have no ideas of our own, so we steal like magpies from other nests. When the Italian league was strongest, we went on a diet of grilled meat and pasta, then France were world champions and we had to have our own Clairefontaine. Spain won the European Championship in 2008 and Argentina’s Lionel Messi assumed the title of the best player in the world, so the Barcelona academy and Mighty Atom midfield players became our holy grail. Now Germany are in the ascendancy, so Vorsprung durch Technik, as we will no doubt be chanting at our academies this morning as we wait in line for bad haircuts.

The real lesson for English football, though, comes from Germany’s older generation, players such as Bastian Schweinsteiger, Philipp Lahm and Arne Friedrich. For just as it is a myth that United defied Hansen’s derogatory comments about over-reliance on youth in 1995 — their team had plenty of experience from Peter Schmeichel, through Denis Irwin, Steve Bruce and Gary Pallister to Eric Cantona — so there is a core of maturity at work in this Germany team, and an approach to the game that exposes English limitations.

Schweinsteiger, the best player on the field against Argentina on Saturday, has operated for most of his career as a left-sided player, who can be switched to the right.

When Joachim Low, the Germany coach, changed the way his side played, Schweinsteiger was dropped from the left forward role in favour of Lukas Podolski.

Always a combative sort, he returned having been reinvented as a creative holding midfield player, more in the mould of Xabi Alonso than Javier Mascherano.

Friedrich made his name for Germany as a right wing back at the Confederations Cup in 2005 and played at full back until 2009 when he was converted to a role in central defence. He has also occupied the holding position in midfield. Then there is Lahm, who switches between left and right, like football’s equivalent of the Hokey Cokey. He is right-footed and prefers that position, but is equally at home on the left and at one tournament started on one flank and then switched because Marcell Jansen was struggling at left back.

So forget youth for a moment and answer this: where are the English players with equivalent versatility? Where is our left back who can go right, our full back who can play centre half, our winger who can hold? Where, for heaven’s sake, is our full back who can make a simple transition to wing back? It certainly wasn’t Ashley Cole, when Steve McClaren tried this against Croatia in 2006.

Moved a few yards from their comfort zones, the English tendency is to act up. Will we ever hear the last of all the positions Steven Gerrard cannot play, that Gareth Barry is not a holding player, or Wayne Rooney no longer wishes to be considered a No 10?

It is not just that England play in straight lines; we think in straight lines, too. We do not produce footballers, but right midfielders, left backs and strikers. And we let our international players off the hook if we put German advancement at this World Cup down to youth alone, and ignore the way the experienced members of Low’s team have taken responsibility and demonstrated their intelligence. It is their professional attitudes that have allowed the youngest players in the team to thrive. We can talk about introducing Adam Johnson or Jack Rodwell to the England squad, but what chance will they have among players so introspective that an alteration measured in yards provokes a crisis of confidence?

When Ashley Cole was injured for much of the 2005-06 season, Arsene Wenger put a defensive midfield player, Mathieu Flamini, in at left back during a run to the Champions League final. Flamini started in that position, home and away, against Real Madrid, Juventus and Villarreal during which time Arsenal did not concede a goal. He was shaky, at first, in the Bernabeu but swiftly recovered to shut David Beckham out of the game. Asked when he had last played left back, Flamini thought he might have had a game or two there at school.

Now, imagine if, in a similar emergency, Cole had been required to fill in for Flamini in central midfield. Unthinkable, isn’t it? Yet even when the early exchanges with Madrid suggested Flamini could be in trouble given an unfamiliar task, he did not panic or hide. He had every excuse for a poor game, but he chose instead to knuckle down and have a good one.

Fast forward to England’s World Cup and being played out of position is increasingly advanced as the reason behind the malaise affecting Rooney and Gerrard. Neither wanted to occupy the role they had played in the qualifiers; Gerrard starting left and joining the forward line, Rooney starting second striker and becoming the spearhead.

We are talking nuances here, though, mere tinkering. Yet England’s coach is not even allowed to tinker because his players get the vapours if he moves them 10 yards square.

A subtle switch of the type made by Friedrich or Lahm is considered daring and a transformation such as the one undergone by Schweinsteiger unimaginable.

Fabio Capello might as well try to place an English player on the moon as ask him to adapt. It is not Germany’s kids that are our problem, but England’s arrested adolescents.

Football Association opts to carry on cheating

So, after four days of high-level consultations — one imagines it was like one of those sketches with no punch line in Spike Milligan’s Q series, with the cast walking slowly towards the camera intoning ‘what are we going to do now, what are we going to do now?’ — the Football Association have come up with their grand plan for the future of English football. We’re going with two more years of cheating. Not literal cheating, of course, as no FIFA rule forbids employing a foreign coach; but cheating in spirit because international football is supposed to be the best of theirs against the best of yours, and if your coaching system is so inadequate it cannot produce one manager of substance, there should be a price to pay.

England do not deserve to succeed at international level because the system is dysfunctional, but the FA will try once more to circumvent institutional failings with wealth.

Cheats never prosper: England's continued use of a foreign manager is a form of cheating

FIFA should ban any nation ranked in the top 50 when World Cup qualifying begins from coming to this cosy arrangement. The irony is that people who see nothing wrong with the continued employment of Fabio Capello are horrified at the thought of, for instance, Mikel Arteta of Everton being asked to play for England.

Why? Arteta is not English, yet neither is the manager. And Capello, with four Italian assistants, using Italian training methods and Italian team structure, is going to have considerably more influence over the Englishness of the national team than a single Spanish footballer, who has played in the Premier League since January 2005 (and was also two years in Scotland with Rangers). We highlight the number of foreign players in English football, but the lack of faith in English managers is an equal problem.

Take Liverpool. In 2004, with the club underperforming but still able to qualify for the Champions League, Rafael Benitez of Valencia was offered the chance to be manager. Now, having finished seventh, out of the Champions League and only in the Europa League because Portsmouth are a financial basket case, the club have slipped sufficiently to offer their job to an Englishman, Roy Hodgson. Roman Abramovich, the Chelsea owner, has never employed an English manager. He is probably waiting for the day Chelsea slump to mid-table before pressing that little emergency button.

The horrible paucity of qualified youth coaches is acknowledged. Sir Trevor Brooking, who directs football at the FA but never seems to be held responsible for its systematic failure, is encouraging more people to take the Grade 1 FA coaching badge, but this is a joke qualification.

My boys used to play at a club with a swamp for a pitch and, as the ball headed off for a certain throw-in, we got used to a well-meaning cry from the touchline. ‘No lost causes,’ one of the dads would shout to a nine-year-old, who had decided not to indulge futility further by chasing through knee-deep mud in the fruitless avoidance of a throw-in. The man giving this aimless encouragement was a Grade 1 coach. He had a glorified child-minding certificate, really. The serious qualification is the Grade A UEFA license, at which level Spain have 750 qualified and England 150. Of those, 640 of the Spanish Grade A licensed coaches work with children and youth players, compared to none in England.

Don’t worry, though, we’re paying a guy £12million over the next two years to pretend this does not matter. Wouldn’t it be funny if he picked Arteta, just to rub it in? Wouldn’t that throw a delightful little curveball to the FA’s moral relativists?

[lawd]

That last highlted bit on the second article is very worrying. No wonder we are being left behind.

[Confused Clarity]

Apart from the Blackburn defender who is?

I can understand the concerns if they are due to play a whole season.

How do you expect to compete at International level if you don't take Age grade international tournaments seriously.

If they want to pick any player who's qualified, they should be allowed to. England should have had Rooney playing in the last U21s competition too for example.

[lawd]

Here is an article done for BBC by Jurgen Klinsman about the process of turning Germany into the team they are now.

Germany have impressed everyone with their attacking displays en route to the semi-finals of this World Cup.

But it is only six years ago that, like England this summer, they were returning home early from a major tournament and wondering what the future held.

Germany had to rebuild after the disaster of the 2004 European Championship in Portugal. We did not win a game and failed to get out of our group.

I got the chance to decide on the direction we took when I agreed to take over as Germany coach that summer, with current manager Joachim Loew as my assistant.

'Jogi' and I began the whole regeneration process by trying to give our national team an identity.

We eventually decided to go down an attack-minded route, passing the ball on the ground from the back to the front line as quickly as possible using dynamic football.

From that, we created a style of play that this Germany team in South Africa now really lives and breathes. Since 2004, we have reached two World Cup semi-finals and the final of Euro 2008.

Can England recover from their poor showing in South Africa as quickly as Germany did six years ago? Yes, but they cannot just copy the German style and expect that to succeed for them.

Every nation has its own culture and specific environment as well as its own footballing identity. England have to develop their own vision and decide how they should play.

As I found, making that vision work is not an easy process. It will take time and England's results might not be positive while it takes effect.

England will also need the help of the Premier League. Every club coach will have their own philosophy but I tried to work with those in the Bundesliga to build something together.

There are a lot of foreign players and managers in England but that should not make a difference. You simply have to explain to them what the style of play is that you want to develop and be prepared to persevere.

When Jogi and I took over the German side, we made our plans very public and made it clear that we were trying to rebuild from the bottom up.

The German Football Association (DFB) helped us by putting a lot of pressure on all the first and second division teams in the Bundesliga to build academy programmes and ensure talented young players were coming through but we still had to decide on our playing style.

Whatever approach the England team decides on, everybody in the English game needs to sign up to it

To do that, we quizzed everyone we could.

We held workshops with German coaches and players, asking them to write down on flip charts three things: how they wanted to play, how they wanted to be seen to be playing by the rest of the world and how the German public wanted to see us playing.

If we could define all of that, we thought we could lay out how we wanted to work and then, from there, sort out the training and paperwork behind the scenes.

What we ended up with amounted to 10 or 12 bullet points laying out our proposals. We then announced that it was our intention to play a fast-paced game, an attacking game and a proactive game.

That last term was something the Germans did not really like because they did not really understand what proactive meant. We just told them it meant we did not react to what our opponents did, we played the way that was right for us.

Once we had done all that, we created a curriculum for German football and presented it to the Bundesliga and DFB boards.

At that point, I told them I did not have the time to implement the strategy at all levels because I only had two years to prepare for the World Cup, so I asked for Germany's Under-21 team to adopt it and that was it.

I brought in a former international team-mate of mine, Dieter Eilts, to run the under-21s and said they had to play the same way as the senior team because they would be a feeder for it.

I was always looking long-term but I knew our plans would be measured by our success at the 2006 World Cup.

There was a lot of negative media at the start. Everybody agreed German football had to change after 2004 but nobody actually wanted to adopt our proposals.

For example, we told the Bundesliga teams and coaches that their players needed to be fitter to play the kind of football we wanted to play.

That meant carrying out fitness tests every three months, which did not go down well with some clubs because I was able to prove that some of them were training their players properly and others were not.

I was basically doubted for the two years I was coach - and when we lost 4-1 to Italy in a friendly game three months before the 2006 World Cup, everybody wanted my blood!

We had another game three weeks later against the United States and we won that one 4-1.

That victory saved my job and kept me in charge for the World Cup because the DFB had been ready to make a change. They wanted the conservative approach again, not the revolution.

But I kept on being positive, explaining that this was how I wanted us to play. I did not know if we would master it in time for the 2006 World Cup but we would give it a shot.

We had the players for four solid weeks before the tournament began and were able to get our thoughts across. They agreed to train the way we wanted them to and do extra work. Soon they started to believe in the system.

That was crucial because, no matter what your job is, you need to identify yourself with the work that you are doing and be happy.

I was happy because, as a former striker, I liked the style we intended to play. I could never coach a team that played defensive-minded football.

I also think the players understood that I was the one taking the risk and that if it did not work out the DFB would send me packing back to California!

We started well at the 2006 World Cup and the public began to feel that something special was going to happen.

In the second game, when we beat Poland with a last-minute goal, the whole nation embraced us and said "yeah, that's our team and that's how we want them to play". We lost in the semi-final against Italy but I was still very proud.

After that World Cup, I was burned out after two years of banging my head against a wall but I made it clear to the DFB that Jogi had to take over after me to continue the job we had started.

He has continued to develop that initial style of play and is enjoying success. It has taken Germany six years to learn to play it properly - and it has developed along the way - but the players are completely comfortable with it now.

Germany's style of play might work for England because, in a way, Germany now play a lot like a typical Premier League team, with the emphasis on pacy attacks.

But whatever approach the England team decides on - whether it is attacking or defensive, patient or high tempo - everybody in the English game needs to sign up to it.

After all, it is the players, coaches and clubs who will help to make it work.

[aggressive minor]

@gregg carter

I'm not saying they shouldn't, am just saying I can see the concerns. Was more about me pointing out the clubs not letting players go, when they won't even by regulars during the season.

I disagree about Rooney playing U21, no need once you are a first teamer, would just exhaust him.

[Confused Clarity]

@gregg carter

I'm not saying they shouldn't, am just saying I can see the concerns. Was more about me pointing out the clubs not letting players go, when they won't even by regulars during the season.

I disagree about Rooney playing U21, no need once you are a first teamer, would just exhaust him.

I'll give you two reasons why I believe he should have gone:

a) Training with better players helps you learn and helps improve you as a player. By taking Rooney, the other players would have been able to improve their own games, which is something you'd always want to do.

b) Playing alongside those players would have helped the understanding between him and those players. It would have therefore ensured, should any of these players be brought into the England side like is intended to happen now, a player of a similar age to them in Rooney would be able to already have some level of understanding with players he may be playing with for another 8 years.

[pouncer]

I expect Klinsmann (and indeed many other German football fans) are quite enjoying England frantically and desperately trying to follow their lead

[skybluedave]

By the time we catch up with the German's current ideas, they'd probably progressed with several new ideas and we'll still be playing catch up

[Crazy_T]

german people don't care about the whole rivalry, english people are just obsessed.

we need to start doing similar to what klinsmann and löw did 6 years ago NOW.

[skybluedave]

german people don't care about the whole rivalry, english people are just obsessed.

I don't know I read comments from Germans saying the win against England was more satisfactory then Argentina win.

Certainly more comes from our side though, but that is the same with a lot of rivals. Man Utd & City. England & Scotland etc

[aggressive minor]

I'll give you two reasons why I believe he should have gone:

a) Training with better players helps you learn and helps improve you as a player. By taking Rooney, the other players would have been able to improve their own games, which is something you'd always want to do.

b) Playing alongside those players would have helped the understanding between him and those players. It would have therefore ensured, should any of these players be brought into the England side like is intended to happen now, a player of a similar age to them in Rooney would be able to already have some level of understanding with players he may be playing with for another 8 years.

Those points are very valid, it's just playing more tournaments I don't think would be the best thing to Rooney long term. Wouldn't want him becoming injury prone because of that. Not saying you are wrong, just I value Rooney have a break more.

[aggressive minor]

Thing is, before it was the French system we wanted to copy, then the Spanish, now the Germans!

[gaga_4_parma]

Thing is, before it was the French system we wanted to copy, then the Spanish, now the Germans!

Italian actually!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/football_focus/8476119.stm

[Confused Clarity]

Thing is, before it was the French system we wanted to copy, then the Spanish, now the Germans!

I don't think the FA/The British FA's. Should necessarily "identically" copy the one system ahead of another.

They should actually look to their own system and look at the bits that they like from each to try and come with a solution.

I think working along the German lines of what they did to change things would be a good thing. It wouldn't automatically end up with them in the same place as the DFB either.

The biggest problem they'll have is getting the Premiership on board. Can't see too many clubs/managers happily changing their style of football to the extent where it could get them relegated and lose them money/jobs.

[Razzler]

I absolutely agree players need to play these tournaments and England need to take youth tournaments seriously.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/leagues/premierleague/tottenham/7873038/World-Cup-2010-Tottenham-allow-teenagers-to-play-for-England-U-19s.html

Spurs were the main barrier and apparently releasing players for the tournament.

Regarding the coaches Brooking has been going on for ages about coaches working with kids and the need for specialised coaches. Seems to be talking, talking quite a lot regarding these matters but what is being done?

We should be taking elements from all these countries

[skybluedave]

Redknapp England's hero \0/

Buttering up the FA so he'll get the England job when Capello leaves

[skybluedave]

Looking on Wiki. Our U21 squad ain't to shabby.

Mancienne

Micah Richards

Tomkins

Smalling

Muamba

Cattermole

Gosling

Delph

Wilshere

Jack Cork

Cleverley

Gosling

Victor Moses

Strurridge

Welbeck

There is some good talent there, some with decent top flight experience

[tigerhgrrrrrr]

Im not getting excited about them! Still hoping Richards will make a useful right back at some point though - when he gets bored with the cars and the jewellery that is.

[Confused Clarity]

Richards is the biggest example of the problems you have at youth level that anybody could ever want.

A completely talentless footballer who's got by because he was athletic and strong physically for his age group and was able to go around kicking players. He has no footballing ability whatsoever.

[GillsMan]

Here's a good article (if a little lengthy) on the problems of the English coaching system from the Real FA Cup blog:

http://therealfacup.co.uk/2010/06/30/new-coach-fleet-required/

Quite an interesting blog and he makes some good points about the number of coaches in England vs the rest of the continent's powerhouses.

[Paul Bacon]

Isnt it about time we give the younger players ago? All i hear when selecting the England team is "he hasnt got the experience". 1) The senior players have done naff all, and 2) Man United and the current Germany team proves you dont need experience to win things

[Confused Clarity]

How do United prove that you don't need experience to win things?

[Paul Bacon]

Well didnt the famous saying go "they wont win anything with kids", and then they won the title?

[Confused Clarity]

Well didnt the famous saying go "they wont win anything with kids", and then they won the title?

That season the squad also included:

Schmeichel

Pallister

Bruce

Irwin

Parker

May

Sharpe

Giggs

Keane

Cantona

McClair

Cole

Look at the current German side too, it's not FULL of youth. You still have to have a balance of youth and experience.

[crouchaldinho]

Interesting article on Dave Richards (the 'Club England' chairman) here: http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2010/jun/29/fa-englandfootballteam

Sir Dave Richards not only sits on the main FA board, but he is also chairman of Club England and chairs the 13-strong FA international committee. He is also the chairman of the Premier League.

Once again, a conflict of interests. I don't see how we can ever hope to move forward with this state of affairs.

Richards is one of modern football's great survivors. He ran several companies that were dissolved or went into receivership and became chairman of the Premier League in 1999. He stepped down as chairman of Sheffield Wednesday shortly afterwards, just before the club were relegated from the Premier League.

Quite how his background of almost complete failure qualifies him to run the Premier League and the FA, I'll never know.

Last year, there was talk that his time as Premier League chairman might be finally coming to an end following a spate of gaffes – not least the revelation that he played a role in bringing the ill-starred Sulaiman al-Fahim to Portsmouth. Instead, he has emerged more influential than ever and the FA has found itself back in the hands of the committee men and dominated by the will of the professional game. All of which is good news for Richards. Whether it is good news for English football is another matter altogether.

[Paul Bacon]

Yea you do, but it seems England are scared to do that. Only reason Heskey could have possibly been taken was due to his experience, as it certainly wasnt his goalscoring record. Rooney should have been taken off during all 4 games as his influence was next to nothing.

Gerrard and Lampard who were also equally ineffective playing together. They need to try something different, rather than sticking to the same senior players game in game out, as clearly its not working. If someone isnt playing well, take them off. Even if it is a player like Rooney or Lampard

[Razzler]

No point 'giving players a go' at international level if they're not 'getting a go' at club level, club level is where they'll develop and learn the most, that's where they need the opportunities.

Any 17, 18 year old coming into our squad will then have the microscope thrust on them for the rest of their career too instead of being able to play without any of the hassle around it

[iamjerome]

that first article of martin samuels quoted is fantastic.

[Paul Bacon]

No point 'giving players a go' at international level if they're not 'getting a go' at club level, club level is where they'll develop and learn the most, that's where they need the opportunities.

Any 17, 18 year old coming into our squad will then have the microscope thrust on them for the rest of their career too instead of being able to play without any of the hassle around it

Thats part of my point in a way. Players like Heskey are getting in the international team when they struggle to get in their club team, just because they have experience of international level.

[Razzler]

I mean more for younger players 'getting a go' at international level when they need to be playing a lot more regularly for their clubs. Some people are saying 'give them a chance' as if the 'chance' should be playing for England The 'chance' needs to be playing for their clubs, regularly

[aggressive minor]

The more I think about it, the more I think Tom Huddlestone should be given a run in a 4-2-3-1 formation, sit deep, dictate the tempo.

[Crazy_T]

basically what carrick should be doing, yet is ignored.

[Astafjevs]

Barry is more than capable of doing that as well - play him next to a holding player and free him a little bit from the defensive duties. Not necessarily saying Barry is the best man for this job, but the team does already have a player of this type in the line-up.

[Crazy_T]

barry can't pass as well nor does he have the same vision. he is not good enough for that role imo.

[aggressive minor]

Exactly. I really like Carrick, but he's 29? Huddlestone 23 and the future.

No way can Barry play that role as good.

[Razzler]

Ignored cause he should be doing it but generally hides in any kind of pressure situation when you want him to be showing for the ball every time. Not sure about Huddlestone, like him but think either him or Carrick would need someone deep with them. Perhaps them two together, I want to like Carrick, I really do.

[skybluedave]

Carrick never gets played in his ideal position for England. That's the problem. Him and Barry were quite good against Egypt. But half the time Carrick plays as the destroyer alongside Lampard and he just can't play that role.

[Razzler]

It seems none of the England players ever seem to be in their ideal positions from what we always hear them saying!

For Carrick to play his role we probably need an extra man in midfield which we haven't been doing. There's something to be said for Fergie leaving Carrick out of the big, big games though

[Razzler]

Is this thread gonna get moved back to the Football Forum, it can be an ongoing National Team thread for England

[aggressive minor]

Carrick never gets played in his ideal position for England. That's the problem. Him and Barry were quite good against Egypt. But half the time Carrick plays as the destroyer alongside Lampard and he just can't play that role.

Carrick worked fine with Scholes in a midfield 2, durin 06/07. Obviously Scholes can't play that role anymore, but at 29- don't see why Carrick couldn't.

[aggressive minor]

Is this thread gonna get moved back to the Football Forum, it can be an ongoing National Team thread for England

May as well, quite like the idea of one massive thread for good.

[aggressive minor]

Is this thread gonna get moved back to the Football Forum, it can be an ongoing National Team thread for England

May as well, quite like the idea of one massive thread for good.

[skybluedave]

Shamlessly copy the Brazilians and rename it The Official England National Team Thread- Road to Euro2012

[Razzler]

... and then cross that out and change it to World Cup 2014?

[Razzler]

Seeing as this forum is now dying anyone else think a nice Mod should move this to the Football Forum now and maybe rename it, same as this with 'Road to Euro 2012' on it ... that way people know what it's there for rather than any expectation about qualifying [/just to clear that up for our friends with chips on shoulders]