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FM10: How Your Players Work. (Warning: Hidden Details Inside)


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I bought Maxim Skavysh which seemed like a really good player, both now and for the future. He had 114 in CA and 168 in PA which sounded promising. But now I have noticed that he isn't improving at all besides always complaing about his training, so I had a look at some of his hidden attributes; he then only has 3 i ambition and 7 in professionalism. That pretty much says he won't get any better, right? So then I wonder how he can have such a high PA when he has almost no motivation at all? Is there any use in keeping him?

I'm just gonna quote my last post here and tell you that I decided to keep Skavysh, and now he actually has improved and has 7 in ambition and 13 in professionalism...it's not much but I guess something is done right. His CA is 123 now.

I still wonder if anyone can help me with this small question:

I'm not really sure how to interpret the values in jadedness. They range from -250 through nothing at all up till 286. Is it a good thing to have a high or low value in jadedness?

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I'm just gonna quote my last post here and tell you that I decided to keep Skavysh, and now he actually has improved and has 7 in ambition and 13 in professionalism...it's not much but I guess something is done right. His CA is 123 now.

I still wonder if anyone can help me with this small question:

I'm not really sure how to interpret the values in jadedness. They range from -250 through nothing at all up till 286. Is it a good thing to have a high or low value in jadedness?

The lower the better. From the range of values of -250 to +286 it seems clear that the 0 halfway point would mark the start of the impact of jadedness on a player, but I am not sure precisely what that impact is.

Is it reduced performances, reduced levels of condition recovery, reduced levels of condition? It has an impact, but I am not sure precisely what.

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I only just spotted this thread, so I'll have to catch up and hopefully add something semi-intelligent at some point ;)

There've been suggestions that jadedness can slow down CA growth in very young players, which seems reasonable enough. At a certain level, it also enables you to interact with a player and tell him you're going to rest him for a certain amount of time - I'd imagine there's also a set level where you get the 'jaded' status on the player's profile, but I haven't seen that in my current game yet.

For those interested in playing a saved game as a bit of an experiment in seeing what some of these stats can do, this thread over in the Skinning Hideout shows you how to display certain hidden attributes in game.

I'd agree with SFraser though, that while it's useful to be aware of some of these hidden attributes and what they can do, it's much more fun in the long term to leave them hidden and develop a 'feel' for your players and their different personalities.

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I'd agree with SFraser though, that while it's useful to be aware of some of these hidden attributes and what they can do, it's much more fun in the long term to leave them hidden and develop a 'feel' for your players and their different personalities.

Totally agree...

While for me getting to grips with the existence and influence of hidden attributes is an essential element of playing FM, the true fun arises when staying away from these values while playing your game... This game even teaches me some self-discipline in that way...

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I see what is essentially two extremes that destroy the fun of the game.

1) The complete ignorance of the existence of variables that might control certain key aspects of player behaviour, and for whatever personal reason a lack of attentiveness or a lack of consideration that such things might exist.

This could easilly happen to someone that simply does not have a lot of free time to play the game. It could happen to someone that has plenty of free time but perhaps does not anticipate the true level of depth the game might possess. Common problems resulting from this issue would be anything from Teamtalk problems, to Tactical Management of key games, to thinking the game is "fixed" in certain contexts, to a huge number of issues that are regularly seen in GD and T&TT forums.

2) Knowledge of the existence of these attributes, knowledge of their precise function, and knowledge of the precise values of these attributes and related attributes or game details.

This is essentially a giant cheat. No more and no less. It completely destroys so much of the "personality" aspect of the game as to pretty much cut the heart out of the game. I would never consider "playing" this way.

While I appreciate and completely respect what DocSander has done with his Teamtalks Optimizer, I am a bit "half-and-half" as to whether it is a good thing for the game. I doubt that the game is meant to played in such a fashion, yet at the same I doubt many people are close to figuring out how to play that aspect of the game as it is meant.

For those people at point number one I would recommend it's use and applaud it's development, with the caveat that once they understand the premise they stop using it and "play the game" if they actually wish to "play the game".

This is by no means a criticism of your efforts DocSander. Such a utility will undoubtedly help many people play the game with greater understanding, and once their personal understanding is adequate it then becomes their choice as to how to continue playing.

If I were you though I might consider adding such a "disclaimer" to any future utilities you produce. With sufficient refinement and continued development you might end up producing the greatest "cheat" programmes ever seen for FM.

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While I appreciate and completely respect what DocSander has done with his Teamtalks Optimizer, I am a bit "half-and-half" as to whether it is a good thing for the game. I doubt that the game is meant to played in such a fashion, yet at the same I doubt many people are close to figuring out how to play that aspect of the game as it is meant.

For those people at point number one I would recommend it's use and applaud it's development, with the caveat that once they understand the premise they stop using it and "play the game" if they actually wish to "play the game".

This is by no means a criticism of your efforts DocSander. Such a utility will undoubtedly help many people play the game with greater understanding, and once their personal understanding is adequate it then becomes their choice as to how to continue playing.

If I were you though I might consider adding such a "disclaimer" to any future utilities you produce. With sufficient refinement and continued development you might end up producing the greatest "cheat" programmes ever seen for FM.

Yes, I hear you on this one...

This line of thought is exactly what's been running through my head during the month-long period that the nearly finished TTO was awaiting its release, by now a few weeks ago. While, first and foremost I'm grateful for all the positive feedback that has come my way after the release of the TTO, I fully realize that in some way these type of tools may mark the beginning of an essentially unwanted development...

There's a fine line between the good and the bad, between peeking at what's not meant to be seen and playing a pure game of FM. And one cannot define for any other player a 'right way' of playing this game. In other words, what is a cheat? Ouch, the awful C-word is out...

The TTO is essentially nothing more or less than a structured assessment of known non-hidden parameters producing a consequent non-emotional pre-match team talk that would otherwise only be possible to the super intelligent, autist-like FM player that we are not. Yet, this way of playing what is in fact a big spreadsheet data game like FM produces results. And this holds true not only for pre-match team talks, but for many more, if not all, aspects of the game.

So, where does the good end, where does the bad start? Should we continue this line of unraveling the heart of FM? Should we provide ourselves with tools automating thought processes that are too complicated for our minds, yet making use of nothing more than what's available to any FM gamer?

Questions easily asked, yet difficult to answer...

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The lower the better. From the range of values of -250 to +286 it seems clear that the 0 halfway point would mark the start of the impact of jadedness on a player, but I am not sure precisely what that impact is.

Is it reduced performances, reduced levels of condition recovery, reduced levels of condition? It has an impact, but I am not sure precisely what.

Now I see that three of the players I had from the start (I'm in my fourth season now) who don't get to play anymore, they have by far the lowest values in jadedness; from -530 to -405. Now that surely can't be a good thing can it?

They have all been transfer listed and are worried about their current situation in the club.

I might also add that I'm swedish and though I have googled quite a bit I have no idea what the word "jadedness" itself means...

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jaded: "worn out or wearied, as by overwork or overuse"

It can be as low as -750, I think. When it gets to that level, it's inevitably because the player hasn't played first-team football for weeks or months and so won't have any match fitness.

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Now I see that three of the players I had from the start (I'm in my fourth season now) who don't get to play anymore, they have by far the lowest values in jadedness; from -530 to -405. Now that surely can't be a good thing can it?

They have all been transfer listed and are worried about their current situation in the club.

That is actually a fantastic observation. It could very well be that Jadedness not only defines how "tired" a player becomes, but extremely low values of jadedness defines how a player recognises and reacts to the amount of playing time they are getting.

In other words very low values of Jadedness could trigger "wants to play more games" and "may look to move clubs to get first team football".

Brilliant observation.

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jaded: "worn out or wearied, as by overwork or overuse"

It can be as low as -750, I think. When it gets to that level, it's inevitably because the player hasn't played first-team football for weeks or months and so won't have any match fitness.

That definition of 'jaded' is partial. Too many bd experiences in life can leave one jaded; a woman who's suffered a broken heart might be jaded and therefore reluctant to commit to a new relationship.

Your second paragraph clearly demonstrates this - it's illogical to say a player is overused by NOT being played!

To conclude, 'jaded' is a mental quality. The footie news at the moment reports the England and Spanish managers hoping Rooney and Torres will be rested by their club managers during this EPL campaign to prevent them being jaded for the World Cup. Recent publicity might leave both Terry and Bridge jaded. When a player is jaded his concentration and motivation are adversely affected; his mind ' 'just isn't in it'.

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On the subject of coaches reporting on hidden attributes, it seems pretty clear to me that it is related to the time the particular coach has spent training the player. My two fitness coaches work with all the players (~25 in first team) and they had the best reports (including injury proneness). They also had the exact same reports.

Statwise, otoh, they are among the worse coaches in my team.

Oh, and very interesting thread, btw :)

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I have to say that after reading this thread I had to post a response. I rarely post a reply about anything but this had to have my response.

All the information that was posted is great, it really is. Well thought out and informative and clear and concise for those people who need it. But....

I think I must be an enigma. I have never seen the second screen that was posted with the hidden attributes, never even heard of them until now. I know that sounds incredulous to the community most likely, but even more incredulous is that I dont need it.

This is a computer game. Set variables, random variables and all the way through a collection of pixels processed onto your screen for the enjoyment of us wanna be managers, I would love to do the job, this game is great and brings me as close to being a manager as can be possible.

I have never failed at any level of this game. Whether I take on Manchester United or Liverpool in my first season or Wolves or Leeds or Chelmsford I always succeed. Adapting each team lineup for each game with the stats I have at hand, that is to say the basic screen stats with no hidden stuff to look at. I cannot remember the last time I failed to make it to at least the semi's of a cup or a season where I have failed to gain promotion. All without the indepth requirement of all that was posted. I never adapt the training and leave it at the default setting of general and the players attributes always increase over the season as do the youth teams. I never have many injuries because of training incidents and my players stay relatively fresh through the season, despite some of the playing most games, including cups.

I am not knocking the post in shape or form because it is indeed a very very good post, but it has made me realise just how good I am at the game. One of my friends plays the game and I had chance to view his team in the first season he was playing after buying the game. Well 'lo and behold he had added managers from various leagues and traded the best players to Manchester City, his favoured team so that he was all but invincible on the pitch. He could have played 10-0-0 and still won most likley, but that was wrong and so I showed him how much more enjoyment he would get if played within the perameters of the game and without 'cheating'. He is now loving it even more and still though fails to manage the team to success.

I am great at this game. I do not need invincible\dominating formations, I do not need super training program v1 or v2. I do not need a scouting program to find the best of the best of the best sir yes sir. I just play the game, taking each match I face on its own merits, reading the scout report and backroom advice and choosing my own team talk. I dont even look at the motivation. I dont need to. When I make a change at half time or during the game it is normally the right one and if I am behind I usually end up winning. I have completed several unbeaten seasons, quadruples and all sorts. All without aids or programs to give the best optimal performances. I enjoy the game so much and just dont need the added extras.

For those of you who think I am blowing my own trumpet, well I am and we are all allowed to. Those that post "The greatest Tactic Ever" or "The ultimate training program" are also boasting because they got a system that is great, but I just dont need it.

Sorry I ramble. The post is very very good and for those that struggle and want to know why then this will help 100% but for me I think I am a natural and so will not need to use it, but qudos to the creator of this post, they have made very much a huge effort to help and that must be applauded.

Keep on Managing and have fun everyone, FM to RULE FOR EVER and of course....

MIGHTY MICK'S WOLVES TO STAY IN THE P\L!!!!![/quote

Your ego can be viewed through a telescope.

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That definition of 'jaded' is partial. Too many bd experiences in life can leave one jaded; a woman who's suffered a broken heart might be jaded and therefore reluctant to commit to a new relationship.

Your second paragraph clearly demonstrates this - it's illogical to say a player is overused by NOT being played!

To conclude, 'jaded' is a mental quality. The footie news at the moment reports the England and Spanish managers hoping Rooney and Torres will be rested by their club managers during this EPL campaign to prevent them being jaded for the World Cup. Recent publicity might leave both Terry and Bridge jaded. When a player is jaded his concentration and motivation are adversely affected; his mind ' 'just isn't in it'.

Sure, I was just picking out the part of the definition that I think is used in FM. It seems to be caclulated by using some function of match minutes over a set time period, age, and quite likely one or two attributes like natural fitness.

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On a side note, are FM players the most complex computer game characters going?

At a quick glance, it looks like every single FM player has over 40 footballing attributes, nearly 20 personality attributes, a bunch of different relationships (preferred players, clubs, etc), and various other dynamic values (morale, jadedness, fitness, injury status, contract value, transfer value, contract expiry, happiness, etc) that change each day. And that's not to mention the basics like height, weight, age.

I don't know enough about other strategy games, or games like The Sims, but do their characters have this many attributes attached to them?

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On a side note, are FM players the most complex computer game characters going?

At a quick glance, it looks like every single FM player has over 40 footballing attributes, nearly 20 personality attributes, a bunch of different relationships (preferred players, clubs, etc), and various other dynamic values (morale, jadedness, fitness, injury status, contract value, transfer value, contract expiry, happiness, etc) that change each day. And that's not to mention the basics like height, weight, age.

I don't know enough about other strategy games, or games like The Sims, but do their characters have this many attributes attached to them?

I made the very same point. Along with other points like "this is the most complex grand strategy game ever released" and "FM players in general don't realise what they are playing".

FM is an astonishing game on multiple levels. My other two favourite games (which get alot less attention than FM both from the gaming press and myself in my free time) are Victoria: An Empire Under the Sun and Dominions 3: The Awakening

It is such a great football game that people forget, or don't realise, that they are playing a game that transcends convention and genre and all that other junk that people think matters despite hating most of the games they buy. People get so sucked into football that they forget what computer games are capable of, and what FM is delivering.

Take a step back and FM is a marvel, an anomoly, a genre and convention destroyer. It is close to work of genius. It is an effort of genius by a group of people so totally enthralled by the subject matter that they are completely oblivious of what they are doing in a wider context and any desire to exploit that wider context. They might try and make more cash from users, sure, and they might totally fail at MMORPG, but they don't milk their supremacy at indepth grand strategy because they themselves are not aware of it.

It is an amazing game from so many different angles. This is what happens when people try to achieve a certain thing in gaming and do achieve it and that achievement allows them to remain oblivious to wider game industry issues.

Okay sure, the guys piling into SI headquarters in search of work and cash and glory probably do understand what this game means, but I don't think Oliver and Paul Collyer realise what they have created and I don't think the average user understands what they are playing. No matter how wide you spread the net to catch competitors in multiple genres, there is nothing even remotely comparable to this game.

In my opinion.

EDIT:

By the way, if you appreciate FM for it's depth then you really should consider getting both those games I mentioned. That's the next five years worth of free time in your life sown up in two completely different and highly compelling ways. Hardcore socio-historical grand strategy that would make Julius Ceaser think twice or the richest fantasy strategy fiction you will see unless you own the entire works of J.R.R Tolkien and H.P. Lovercraft and every religious scripture on the planet and have read them all from cover to cover enough times to be sitting in a mental institute.

Ofcourse for the football fan there is no comparison. Just something to do during the real world off-season when there is no World Cup or Continental Competition and the local beer prices, petrol prices and package holiday prices are a bit high.

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  • 1 year later...

RIP SFraser and what an excellent post this is.

Wanted to add my tuppence for all who stumble across it.

I believe "match experience" and "match fitness" are two different variables and not one and the same as suggested in the original article.

Match Experience - a long term variable denoting how many games and the nature of the games (friendlies, rivals, cup finals, normal league games etc) played by each player. It stacks up over time and I assume at some point hits what might be considered 100%.

Match Fitness - a short term variable - note: players lack match fitness at the start of the season hence we try and get them match fit via friendlies before the season kicks off. If a player doesn't play for a good few weeks then his match fitness begins to decline. You can be 100% 'fit' via training but this isn't the same as match fitness which is all about the stop / start, turn, speed variations etc that come from actual matches. So match fitness can got to 100% then back all the way down to 0% and then back up again doe to injuries, close season and of course games played.

Match experience imho will impact on both training and performance, whereas match fitness will not impact on training but will do so on match performance.

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