Getting in Position for a Tap-In/Cut back

[Ari Gold]

A problem I've noticed a bit lately using my wide tactic with dribbling wingers. My winger will be in a lot of open space and dribble down the line. My Poacher, who is ahead of him, will somehow fail to be in a position to receive a cut back/tap-in. Here's an example of what I mean.

Angel Di Maria (AML inside forward) is about to receive the ball from Lukaku in open space. My poacher, Lissandro Lopez (#9), is ahead of him.

As Di Maria starts to run down the left, Lopez is still ahead of him, though in an offside position.

By the time Di Maria is ready to make his delivery, Lopez is too far back to be there for a close one on one opportunity. Di Maria instead crosses it toward Ribery (#7) and the play breaks down.

From what i have noticed, Lopez drops back to but himself in an onside position, but he concedes far too much space in the process. For the record, Lopez is set as a poacher, with rare forward runs, full attack mentality and wide play is move into channels.

My question is, what tactical instructions can I set up so that this type of instance (of which I create a fair few) is better converted into goals and clear cut chances?

[lam]

If this happens on an ongoing basis, then I would consider lowering the mentality of #9 but a notch or two.

Basically, a few things are happening. #9 is making runs to earlier... whats his OTB and Anticipation skills?

or, he is making the runs at the right time, but your #8 is not controling the ball well enough and is faultering, thus #9 overruns the pass.

Look for how early #9 is breaking the offside AND how well your #8 is controling the ball.

There may be other worries,though, these are the ones I would consider.

LAM

[Rista]

This happens to me all the time. I have excellent wingers (well, at least for the level of football I'm playing) who find themselves in those kind of situations very often and my striker always ruins the whole move by conceeding too much space in the process of dropping back onside. I've experimented with different strikers and different roles/duties and nothing seems to make much of a difference so I attributed it to my strikers being not so great but now I see it happens with top strikers too. Not really a fan of fiddling with individual mentalities anymore but I'll give that a shot.

[Ari Gold]

If this happens on an ongoing basis, then I would consider lowering the mentality of #9 but a notch or two.

Basically, a few things are happening. #9 is making runs to earlier... whats his OTB and Anticipation skills?

or, he is making the runs at the right time, but your #8 is not controling the ball well enough and is faultering, thus #9 overruns the pass.

Look for how early #9 is breaking the offside AND how well your #8 is controling the ball.

There may be other worries,though, these are the ones I would consider.

LAM

Lopez's OTB and Anticipation are both 17. Di Maria does have good ball control and he is not being asked to hold up the ball. Even with Lopez being offside, I don't quite understand how he gives up so much space when getting onside. The #3 defender can't afford not to run at full speed because he is too far away from Di Maria. Therefore, Lopez needs only to slightly slow his pace to get onside, not stop and wait.

[isuckatfm]

lam

A question for you mate, not meant as a dig or anything

Do you not look at that and think it looks wrong regardless of tactical settings or attributes? Obviously it's a computer game and players need to be told what to do, but would you not regard it as a shortcoming that the striker does not react to the obvious advantage, however unrealistically critical that assessment is?

To the question at hand mentality/runs from deep would be the obvious settings but I do suspect that this is a match engine issue with attackers holding runs when they really shouldn't. What happened between screenshots 2 and 3 would be interesting with respect to the exact moment the #9 slowed down (if I had to guess, I would say he probably almost came to a stop at some point despite being behind the man in possession)

Also for those looking at the screenshots

1) what do you think of this situation involving 4 v 2 breakaway? I would be interested to see the build up to this

2) what is your opinion of the Lazio #3's behaviour? for me as a centre half he has an advantage with respect to the goal as Di Maria receives but he somehow ends up going to close down in a way that leaves him 3 to 4 yards behind with the crossing lane wide open. To me he should be making a recovery run in a way that does not make Di Maria's decision easy

3) what about Lazio #33 defensively? Do you think it would look more realistic if he got drawn centrally towards the Lyon #9 rather than marking the Lyon #36 tightly, with one possible end result being the #36 getting on the end of a far post cross

[lam]

I agree that there are many issues with the ME. But, many have been around so long now, that you kind of learn to live with it.

My answer was provided in a game related basis. I see it all the time in my games, the player runs to early, then literaly stops for a second and then starts again. By this time he is so far behind the play, it was pointless him even to start moving again, he may as well sit where he was and wait for the return of play, because it usualy breaks down when they do not get forward.

My answer has minimised these incidents for me as they run from deeper and tend not to halt their runs. Obviously, this creates its own issue as on many occassions, I do not want them playing deep.

I know your not digging as you not the type to do that, but surely you think my answer is better than simply stating that there is a problem with the ME?

[Ari Gold]

Lam, do you think PPMs gets forward whenever possible or arrives late in opponents area would help this at all?

With regards to mentality, I use inside forwards and I noticed far too often they take shots from 45 degree angles or worse rather than hitting it across goal for the simple shot. A lot of the time this is because the striker wasn't there. I increased the mentality to full attack in the hope that he could be there more often, but with minimal success. Do you think your suggests will help with this too?

[lam]

Well.... I can not comment on the PPM thing as I dont really think its related. As isuckatfm pointed out. It is a flaw in the ME, my original answer is simply a way around it.

In relation to the taking shots to early, well..... I have been posting in another thread where SFraser is commenting on HUB and I am playing around with it now and would suggest that maybe you turn this on for both of your inside forwards and see what happens. Contrary to beleif, it doesnt cause them to simply sit around and wait for things, it does actualy seem to make them think about things a little more.

[Ari Gold]

Thanks for the input Lam. Just a final question: do you think using HUB will help players look for the pass instead of the shot? I create a lot of good scoring opportunities that go wasted because the cut back isn't used and if using HUB helped I would tick it for my strikers too.

[isuckatfm]

I agree that there are many issues with the ME. But, many have been around so long now, that you kind of learn to live with it.

My answer was provided in a game related basis. I see it all the time in my games, the player runs to early, then literaly stops for a second and then starts again. By this time he is so far behind the play, it was pointless him even to start moving again, he may as well sit where he was and wait for the return of play, because it usualy breaks down when they do not get forward.

My answer has minimised these incidents for me as they run from deeper and tend not to halt their runs. Obviously, this creates its own issue as on many occassions, I do not want them playing deep.

I know your not digging as you not the type to do that, but surely you think my answer is better than simply stating that there is a problem with the ME?

Fair enough

The only issue that might occur is that the game seems to want to force one striker in a front two naturally higher than the other. So if you set two strikers to the exact same settings that affect his positioning (mentality/runs from deep/marking) they don't play in a line when the opposition has possession.

So with the assumption that the Lyon #36 is the lower mentality striker, then lowering the mentality of the #9 might not make a huge difference to how deep he runs from when possession switches.

AriGold

Bear in mind what follows is half theory/half experience so if it doesn't make any difference by all means come back and say.

In relation to the shots from poor angles I would look at the obvious

- long shots

- run with ball

- cross ball

I would ignore team based settings and try those three first to see if they help. My general guess is that the sliders for those 3 control probabilities with 'pass ball' being the fourth factor. So if you feel the striker is getting in positions where he shoots too early instead of crossing or continuing the run, which is what you want, then lower long shots below cross ball and see what happens.

Other factors come into it too, like HUB as lam said, 'cross from' settings, and team sliders. But it's best to start with the obvious stuff first. Since you've already tried altering the other attackers' positions so they are a viable option, it's worth looking at the man in possession's decision making.

[Ari Gold]

Thanks again for the input. I've set my strikers and wingers to hold up ball and have noticed a bit of an improvement in players looking for cut backs. I still see a fair instances though, where the 2 closest players to goal are my guys and they will somehow cut into each others space and fail to work the situation into an open goal tap-in.

I slightly reduced my poacher's mentality to the default setting and have just changed his run from deep to sometimes (from rarely). Am hoping this will reduce the number of times where he is in position but ends up dropping behind for no good reason. Am now using Pato in this role too, so hopefully his extra speed will make this effective.

[phnompenhandy]

Actually I'm getting a heck of a lot of success from exploiting the flanks, with my wingers and overlapping wingbacks raining or firing in crosses for my target man to convert. I think most of my goals come this way. I play one up front and have 2 types of target man - one tall guy for heading and one nippy one for poaching. My selection depends on the scout report of the opposition defence.

What MIGHT be a key factor for me is that I'm in a rubbish league in the tenth tier of my created league and whilst my players are really poor, the oppo defences are even worse. Maybe defenders with decent positioning and general intelligence nullify this tactic.

[SFraser]

lam

A question for you mate, not meant as a dig or anything

Do you not look at that and think it looks wrong regardless of tactical settings or attributes? Obviously it's a computer game and players need to be told what to do, but would you not regard it as a shortcoming that the striker does not react to the obvious advantage, however unrealistically critical that assessment is?

To the question at hand mentality/runs from deep would be the obvious settings but I do suspect that this is a match engine issue with attackers holding runs when they really shouldn't. What happened between screenshots 2 and 3 would be interesting with respect to the exact moment the #9 slowed down (if I had to guess, I would say he probably almost came to a stop at some point despite being behind the man in possession)

Also for those looking at the screenshots

1) what do you think of this situation involving 4 v 2 breakaway? I would be interested to see the build up to this

2) what is your opinion of the Lazio #3's behaviour? for me as a centre half he has an advantage with respect to the goal as Di Maria receives but he somehow ends up going to close down in a way that leaves him 3 to 4 yards behind with the crossing lane wide open. To me he should be making a recovery run in a way that does not make Di Maria's decision easy

3) what about Lazio #33 defensively? Do you think it would look more realistic if he got drawn centrally towards the Lyon #9 rather than marking the Lyon #36 tightly, with one possible end result being the #36 getting on the end of a far post cross

Isuckatfm it is good to see you posting again.

You raise the issue immediately of how the screenshots look wrong regardless of tactical settings and attributes, and based on the description of the No. 9's anticipation and off the ball attributes there is no excuse for his behaviour, but that is assuming that anticipation and off the ball is all that is at work here.

The behaviour of the Lazio 33 can be explained by a particularly tight marking system, but the behaviour of the Lyon 9 is inexcusable based on his anticipation and off the ball alone. However what I find particularly interesting is the behaviour of the Lyon 36 and Lyon 12.

The Lyon 36 takes up excellent positions in every single screenshot and is a matter of inches and a decent cross away from finishing a 2 pass move he started on the halfway line. The Lyon 36 is a good cross away from playing the Deep Lying Centre Forward role to perfection.

The Lyon 9 and the Lyon 12, the advanced forward and midfielder respectively that look clearly intended to play around the deep Centre Forward, are both suffering from exactly the same lack of appreciation of space. The Lyon 9 advances too quickly and fails to take up a quality final position, and the Lyon 12 is incapable of escaping his marker in the key areas of the pitch for his role. The Lyon 36 suffers from no such problems and with a well contructed Left Winger role with adequate attributes for the role he should have started and finished this move.

To me this is the key point of investigation. Instructions can account for much of the absurd or unrealistic behaviour we see in this particular example of the Match Engine, but what can account for the fact that the Lyon 36 has played his role almost to perfection while the Lyon 9 and 12 have failed entireally in their roles in an attacking context?

Could it be that the Deep Lying Forward is one of the most widely discussed and thoroughly investigated positions in Football Manager Forums? Could it be that the Deep Lying Forward that is the Lyon 36 has both the attributes and the instructions to play this role to near perfection while the players surrounding him suffer from inadequate attributes and inferior instructions in detail?

Assuming the above to be true then the most obvious factor springing to mind for the behaviour of players in the screenshots is that the Lyon 36 will have a Free Role and the Lyon 9 and 12 will not. Neither the Lyon 9 or 12 is exploiting the space between the Lazio 3, 14 and 24 in the first or second screenshot. The Lyon 9 has advanced too early and the Lyon 12 has failed to advance at all in the second screenshot compared to the first.

The first and second screenshots show an excellent performance by the Lyon 36 Deep Lying Forward, and a very poor judgement of FWR Runs + Mentality for the Lyon 9 and 12, as well as a very poor exploitation of available space.

The final screenshot shows the Lyon 12 advanced midfielder completely out of the game. The position between the Lazio 2 and 24 is ideal for him but he has been instructed to make direct forward runs and has not been told to move into space. He is out of the game entireally instead of being in a position to thread the ball into the Lyon 9 and send him clean through on goal in exploitation of the poor positioning of the Lazio 3. Free Role for Lyon 12 and the game changes completely.

Likewise the final screenshot shows the positioning of the Lyon 9, 36 and 7 to be an almost perfect example of two high mentality players being bisected by a run from deep. The 9 and the 7 have finished their runs and chosen positions in poor areas whereas the 36 has produced a near perfect run from deep.

Personally I would say that the balance between Mentality and Forward Runs for the Lyon 9 is off, while the instructions for the Lyon 12 are plain bad.

The behaviour of the Lazio defenders is far from brilliant but they do look to be adhering to some sound basic principles in theory.

As a side note I feel it is worth considering Teamwork and Concentration. Concentration could be used in an arguement for the behaviour of Lyon 9, but from personal experience I would state that Teamwork plays a huge role in run quality from a team perspective. My own experience of Teamwork in FM had lead me to believe that the specific details of attacking runs in precisely the context shown by these screenshots is influenced significantly by Teamwork. The final screenshot shows exactly the time where the 7, 9 and 12 should be advancing their positions, and as I have stated before my experience of playing with runners from deep like the Lyon 12 leads me to believe that Teamwork is a vital component in the quality of the action taken from a team perspective. I could be badly wrong on this point but I have seen enough to make me think it is worth raising.

Good to have you back posting here anyway Isuckatfm. You always offer a lot when it comes to tactical detail and it raises everyones game. I hope you are planning on sticking around.

[Beardeye]

This is one of the best screenshots I have seen of a human counter attack. You have drawn the opposition into your half and launched a 4 v 2 situation in your favour.

When De Maria receives the ball there are only 2 opposition players (arguably only 1 depending on the exact line of their number 33) between him and the goal, as well as your own number 9 (not including their goalkeeper of course). This has possibly triggered the FM "counter attack" which raises the entire teams mentality to all out attack- and could be one explanation of your number 9 pushing too far forward too early.

TO be honest I dont think this explains why the number 9 does not get himself in the correct position for a cut back, and the in depth attribute/tactical analysis above may be do.

But its a very interesting screenshot and discussion. I would be interested to know what formation and strategy you are using in this match (although as you are 2-0 up i expect the AI was pushing too far forward to get a goal back and this is what brought the situation about).