Millie Posted January 20, 2007 Author Share Posted January 20, 2007 First of all, if you haven't already done so please read Asmodeus' awesome thread on how to set up a tactic which requires as few in depth changes as possible - "Slider Apathy" - http://community.sigames.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/1519717/m/3632074782 Then there's the thread that got me experimenting in the first place and got me hooked on the Rule of Two before later deferring to more of a "Rule of One-and-a-Half" - Tactical Theorums and Frameworks - http://community.sigames.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/1519717/m/9972005362 Also, take a good hard look at Cleon's thread where he shows how he uses each slider to affect certain situations, and how he runs his club - The Sheffield United Project - http://community.sigames.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/1519717/m/3862031882 About me - Right, I'm not an authority on Football Manager. In fact, nearly everything I've learned about the game I have taken from other theory threads then experimented in the game with the ideas these have generated in my head. On FM06 I won a few leagues, a few cups but never anything of note. On FM07, even less. However, I never really play with large teams so this is to be expected. What I can say is that whenever anything goes wrong I tend to blame myself, which is one of the reasons why I experiment so much with the sliders. After reading through the Sheffield United Project, a few more pieces in my rather sketchy jigsaw puzzle fell into place and, through fiddling on "full match" mode over most of a 38 game season with Aston Villa (amongst all my other hours and hours of playing) I think I'm finally in a position to explain exactly what each slider does. This is not definitive - it's what I observe playing the game with the players I have in the style I play, though most ideas are pretty universal. What I really want is to generate more discussion. Even if we work out what each slider does, we still need to know how to use it, right? 1.0 Mentality We should first kill one myth that is perhaps one of the last that I managed to shake off - team mentality does not completely override individual mentality. Here, we're looking at what the team instructions sliders do so we can move away from the finer points of how each individual setting can make a difference. We are given three basic clues to what mentality asks of our players. We can attack, we can defend or we can play somewhere in between (with all-out attack and defend as our last ditch options). What exactly is "defend" and what is "attack". The answer probably seems very obvious, but if you don't properly understand the difference then you could be using the other sliders ineffectuallly. 1.1: A defensive team looks to primarily keep the ball out of their own net. They will not look to take many risks in their own half, will hang back a little deeper in normal play, try to put their men behind the ball and generally do what is necessary to avoid shots on goal. There are implications for this in the way your team will play. Obviously, the aim is to concede as few goals as possible. But how will this make your players behave? From my observations, we can expect a team playing defensive mentality to do the following: <UL TYPE=SQUARE><LI>Be more prone to hoofing the ball out of defence than look for the passing option <LI>Look more for sideways and backwards passes when trying to hold possession than go for penetrative ball forward <LI>Attempt to get more men behind the ball... <LI>... And therefore play a little deeper <LI>Will be more likely to sit in their positions and not close down those on the ball so as not to be dragged out of shape Is is also clear, then, that some of our other tools will counteract these effects. Some may be desirable, others counter productive. Which ones will cause what? Passing will help us counteract the "hoofing" which may lead to a loss of possession. Shorter passing may encourage the player to use the options around him, perhaps encouraging a pass sideways. Or, on the other hand, longer passing may give the player more options, particularly on the wings where a pass may be less dangerous than to a central player. Passing will also help to counteract the sideways and backwards balls. Shorter passing may re-enforce this style of play, perfect for a side in the lead or a quality side looking to hold possession and tire out the opposition (a la the Manchester United sides of the mid-1990s). Longer passing on the other hand may encourage more forward balls to help get attacks moving yet still retain the defensive "shape" required. Linked to this we have the "try through balls", "run with ball" and "cross ball" options in the individual instructions, where rarely on each will re-enforce the possession play, wheras often will encourage more penetration. Tempo is another important tool. This was another slider that I thought had no defensive implications, yet I've found it invaluable in holding leads and breaking down teams playing possession football. A higher tempo encourages the players to find the ball and do something with it. Therefore the players are likely to close down the opposition more and perhaps sacrifice a little of their shape, but hopefully rush them into a mistake. A lower tempo can make it more clear to your players that you want them to hold firm. This should most obviously be used in conjunction with Closing Down. Then we have the more evident use of a quicker tempo. Those sideways and backwards balls we talked about can be encouraged by a slower tempo, or a more cavalier attitude can be sought with a quicker tempo. Be aware though that a quick tempo is likely to leave a player with fewer options and less time to play the ball. Creative freedom - as I will point out later, creative freedom is one I still haven't got my head fully around, and I usually leave this a little above normal and then set individuals to either creative or uncreative roles. With a defensive line up, I would say that creativity isn't a big deal - how creative is throwing your body in front of the opposition? I think this is up to the individual manager, though maybe having a few forward players on a higher setting will allow some good counter-attacking football. Width will be covered in more detail further down the page, but a quick note is useful. Narrower widths are obviously going to be more beneficial to a defending team as they can hold a tight middle to stop the team being penetrated - but too narrow and you leave the wings exposed. You won't need overly much width as you don't need to exploit the space - the opposition do. If you're playing on the counter, however, you may need to expand a little to make up for the natural tendency to play narrower in defensive situations. Defensive line is again something to be covered later in relation to the whole team. We can safely say a lower defensive line seems to go well with a team sitting back. A higher one will counteract the natural tendency to fall back when defending. Timewasting can be covered in far less detail as its uses are primarily an aesthetic one - do you want to kill a game off or do you desperately need a goal? Defensive mentalities lend themselves to higher timewasting as the team will be further encouraged to keep the ball, knock it into the corners and hold it. When the counter-attack ensues, your players should already be in position. However, I find it is equally likely to encourage the "hoof" from defence. Like I say, I think this is a matter of choice. 1.2: Now, attacking teams are, in many cases the opposite. The point of an attacking team is to outscore the opposition. Therefore we need to be as creative as possible, give ourselves room to play and generally get stuck into the opposition. Our team, when playing on an attacking setting is therefore likely to: <UL TYPE=SQUARE><LI>Look for more penetrative balls in an attempt to break down the opposition <LI>Attempt to run into space to give a passing option, maybe at the expense of positioning <LI>Move further up the pitch So, how will our other sliders help us? Passing works pretty much opposite to how it works for defensive teams. Longer passing will encourage even more balls forward, again re-enforcing this instruction. However, better quality teams may need to reduce their passing to encourage possession play and therefore reducing the "killer balls" to those which have a high percentage of working. Longer passing should give you more chances, though these are likely to be rushed and therefore off target. It's also more likely that you'll give the opposition the ball. Shorter passing will allow the team to systematically break down the opposition. Tempo is linked similarly. Slower tempos will help tone down the desire to move forward at all possible times, whereas a quicker one will encourage a more open game. A slower tempo and shorter passing will be more defensively sound, but will create fewer (but better quality) shots on goal. Creative freedom should be used pretty much the opposite to when in defence. Not too much (you'll end up with no shape at all), but creativity shouldn't be stifled either. We need to break them down, and we won't do that with monotonous balls over the top. Width is on the same lines. The team are playing with more natural width, so reduce it to tighten the defence, widen to utilise even more space. Defensive line - you get the picture. The team are naturally playing further up the pitch. Force them back by reducing this, encourage them forward by increasing it. There really is nothing more to say about timewasting. A mixed team will obviously need to use elements of both attacking and defensive slider settings and common sense should dictate what you choose to use. We've covered the links between each of the sliders above in good detail, so now we really only need to decide what the other sliders do and what their effects are on their brothers. Common sense should now prevail, and I can save my keyboard from the hammering it's getting! 2.0 Passing We have short a bit of a mixed bag, direct and long. Each is pretty self explanitory. Short will knock the ball around to nearby teammates, direct will look for players further up the field, and long will send speculative balls towards the rough direction of John Fashanu. All this is explained in the manual - but what about the affects on the team? 2.1: Short A mentality of 1 is, as some of the gurus have noted here, one touch passing. The other "short" options give us a progressively longer time on the ball and progressively longer passing options available. Short passing has its advantages - play is usually quick and played around to people close by, encouraging the team to keep possession and stretching the opposition who have to chase the ball all over the place. However, if players are too far apart or all the closeby players are tightly marked then the player has no option but to risk running with it or hoofing it away. Therefore short passing needs to make sure it always has options available as well as the obvious skills of reasonable ball control and passing accuracy. Then there's the problem of the soggy pitch. Short passing will: <UL TYPE=SQUARE><LI>Encourage the team to keep possession <LI>Keep the ball on the deck <LI>Prerserve the condition of your players Now, clearly passing and tempo are linked. A quicker tempo will move the ball around faster, but also make the players rush. Chances are that with a short passing game players will panic and kick the ball away. A bit counter productive. Slower tempo will get the players to take their time and pick the right pass. A higher defensive line may be required to keep the team closer together, and ditto with the width, but be aware that if you're trying to break down the opposition this could be counter productive and you may be better off giving the passing a couple more clicks to the right if things aren't going well. Creative freedom will allow the team to break from monotonous triangles and break down the opposition, but could equally lead to "hollywood balls" to nowhere. Finally timewasting may emphasise to the team that you just want to keep possession and couldn't care less if you broke out of your own half providing the opposition don't get the ball. Or, conversely, you may decide you want to quickly pass the ball around the opposition and get on goal as quickly as possible. 2.2 Direct and Long This system is by its very nature quick, penetrative and attacking. Very potent when used on the counter attack, it hits the opposition before they have chance to fully assemble their defence. More Bolton Wanderers than Bologna. However, it also reduces the time the team have on the ball, and a possession rating of 45% may actually be quite good. We all know, of course, that this doesn't matter if you can score 4 while the opposition plays pretty on-the-deck stuff but can't get into the final third. Direct football gives your team more options, but they will almost always choose to go to the forward players, i.e. wingers, attacking midfielders and strikers, and if the opposition can adequately mark them or are strong and good in the air then this system could just be giving the ball away. There is debate as to whether this system is better for lower league sides because it at least makes sure the team give the ball away in the opposition's half or whether short is better because it requires less skill to pass a ball over 5 yards than over 50. Personally, having watched League 2 a few times this year I'd go for direct or long, but this is personal preference based solely on my footballing background. Teams in England who aren't very skillful tend to go for this approach. Direct football then. It will: <UL TYPE=SQUARE><LI>Look for attacking players at every available opportunity <LI>Have a high amount of balls in the air <LI>Quickly move from the defence to the attack, good for counter attacking football <LI>Reduce possession, but increase the likely hood of getting shots on goal Again, tempo is linked. A quick tempo is implicit by the nature of the longer ball. Can you really hit a 40 yard pass slowly? I suppose you could try it to keep the ball on the deck and at the back and wait for the killer opportunity to arise, but then why not use short passing and counter attack with more "try through balls" selected? Creative freedom isn't as necessary in this system as the short game, but if you have a player who plays most of the forward balls he could do with a bit of freedom to choose his passes. A deep defensive line would encourage the opposition on to you to make the direct or long ball game more effective as the other team will be more out of position. Also good if used in conjunction with the counter attack. However, a higher line may help to negate some of the adverse affects of the direct system by encouraging at least a few build up passes first as the play will be squeezed more. Width is something you can choose. Wider witdth to give more attacking options, particularly on the wings? Narrower to deal with the inevitable counter attack from the opposition and encourage more balls over the top to a target man striker? This would, I feel, depend on the situation and your style of play. For the long ball, pretty much the same as direct, only emphasise everything. 3.0 Tempo Tempo serves two functions as far as I can tell. Primarily I believe it affects the pace of passing and how quickly the team should get from one end of the pitch to the other and how vital it is to shoot at every available opportunity. However, it also can serve as a defensive aid, making your players more concerned with regaining possession. Obviously the advantages and disadvantages stick out like a soree thumb - high tempo leaves the team more out of shape and creates rushed attacks; low tempo keeps the team tight and patient, only attacking when there is a good chance of success. The uses of tempo have been discussed above, though it's probably most heavily linked to passing. As a personal preference, I try to never have more than a three-notch gap between my passing and tempo as I see a quick-short passing game or a slow-long passing game completely contradictary. If you want to play a game like Arsenal (slow build up, but explosive counter attacking), check the counter-attack box. This would be far more advisable than trying to play short passing with a fast tempo as this would make the players dive in for challenges all over the place and leave your men out of position. Best to soak up the pressure then explode. As for creative freedom and defensive line I would base this more on your mentality and passing style. The rest should fall into place. However, it's safe to say that as a slow tempo implies short passing you're better off playing a style which keeps players closer together than spredding them far apart. See passing and mentality. 4.0 Creative Freedom Now I tend to keep creative freedom reasonably central and then change it for each individual, which isn't really the discussion here. However, as a rule of thumb I would keep this pretty neutral. Cleon has mentioned that he finds his players get stilted and confused with too low creative freedom, whilst it's plainly obvious that too much will result in a free-for-all and not much quality team play. There's plenty in other threads about the merits of low CF on centre backs, high CF on playmakers etc. Again, base this on individual players and personal preference. I would go further, but as we're only discussing team instructions, I would check back over the passing and mentality sections for a few ideas. 5.0 Width Three choices here - wide, narrow and normal. Wider play exploits the space of the wings, spreads out your players and therefore should leave more of your players in space to receive the ball and do something with it. Conversely, narrower play will keep the team tight and make sure that the opposition are forced wide from where it is virtually impossible to score (directly, obviously, but then they might be able to cross the ball and cause no end of damage). As a rule of thumb, find a "natural" width for your team. A width that allows some attacking room but will also be defensively tight. Then widen it to attack and get at a weaker opposition, tighten it to hold the defence together. Width can have an effect on passing as very short passing requires players to be quite close together. To play a wider width you may need to increase passing by a couple of notches just to make sure players have enough options. And, as we've discussed, because this is related to passing you may need to check tempo as well. A quick wide game against a better team may lead the team to be contracted on the defence then burst wide on the attack meaning players will get very tired very quickly. Width is also linked to defensive line, the "height" of the team if we are to look at the pitch as a tactical oblong (which it is). Narrow width and deep defensive line is fine to keep the box filled with men, but if playing an attacking mentality there will be lots of space inbetween the midfield and the defence. Wide width, low defensive line and attacking mentality may be useful to draw out a team who refuses to attack, but it leaves massive holes. Think about this when setting the width - what is the tradeoff between space for attacking and leaving a vacuum for the opposition to exploit? 6.0 Defensive Line As I say, the y axis to width's x. Defensive line can be used as a spacing tool like width, or as a defensive tool. Deep defensive lines are good for counter-attacking football as they draw the opposition in. They're also great for stopping the opposition's pacy forwards getting in behind you. However, if player and team mentalities are not closely spaced together it can leave the team with massive gaps between its midfield line and defensive line. High defensive lines can squeeze the play and give the opposition little room to move (particulalry if utilised with a narrow width) but leave the team vulnerable to the direct/long ball over the top. Tactical Theorums and Frameworks usually advises the defensive line to be on a "natural" setting of the same mentality as the most attacking midfielder so as to keep the gaps as narrow as possible while allowing the team space to breath. From this position you can go up or down based on the demands of the game, but stray too far and expect problems. Needless to say, if you wish to move quickly from a deep defense to the attack you'll need longer passing than usual, while a high line may allow you to play a shorter game as players should be available for one another. 7.0 Timewasting Timewasting is a funny old game, and I would never set off with this in mind. Even if I were playing Chelsea with Chester I would not go for a high timewasting setting from the off. Nor would I go for a low one if the roles were reversed. A neutral setting seems to work for me. With the slider dead on the centre, the team will play quicker when behind and be more prone to hold up the ball when ahead. They seem to do this naturally to what my natural preference would have been anyway. So I never change it. If you were to change it, then I think it's fairly logical. Quick tempo does not lend itself to more timewasting, unless you wish to negate some of its effects by artificially forcing it down by using timewasting. Switch this round for slow tempo games. Slow tempo, low timewasting. Rush, but don't rush? Quite contradictary. I steer well clear of this debate usually. 8.0 Conclusions We can see, then, how the sliders are inter-related. We can either emphasise certain effects by using the sliders in harmony, or try and tame some of their deficiencies by using complimentary instructions. For example: attacking, slow tempo - "I want you to go for goal, but don't rush things and make a mess of it". Or how about slow tempo, defensive - "I definitely don't want you to rush forward. Take your time. Just don't concede!" I will, perhaps later, draw up some sample instructions which would show some obviously contradictary instructions and some that perhaps work more in harmony. However, from this rough guide it should be fairly obvious how one affects the other. My starting point is always mentality, as shown by the emphasis on it in this guide. Then as we go through the list, passing is next important for me in deciding my style of play. This goes hand in hand with tempo, so there's two birds with one stone. Then I set my shape with width and defensive line. These decisions can be based on my opposition (do I need to counter-attack this team, or can I just go for it), the weather (I can't play along the ground on a bog), my team (my tall striker is injured, need to play to feet) or a combination of all of them. Cleon's thread will show how once this has been acheived, very few changes are needed game-to-game. It's long, I know, but I hope it helps some people. I feel that sometimes the settings seem obvious, but it's not until it's written down that you really understand the relationship between each slider. Writing this made it clearer in my head, and I hope you get the same from reading it. More importantly, I hope this can be practically applied to your games. Mille - 20 - i - 07 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Millie Posted January 20, 2007 Share Posted January 20, 2007 First of all, if you haven't already done so please read Asmodeus' awesome thread on how to set up a tactic which requires as few in depth changes as possible - "Slider Apathy" - http://community.sigames.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/1519717/m/3632074782 Then there's the thread that got me experimenting in the first place and got me hooked on the Rule of Two before later deferring to more of a "Rule of One-and-a-Half" - Tactical Theorums and Frameworks - http://community.sigames.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/1519717/m/9972005362 Also, take a good hard look at Cleon's thread where he shows how he uses each slider to affect certain situations, and how he runs his club - The Sheffield United Project - http://community.sigames.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/1519717/m/3862031882 About me - Right, I'm not an authority on Football Manager. In fact, nearly everything I've learned about the game I have taken from other theory threads then experimented in the game with the ideas these have generated in my head. On FM06 I won a few leagues, a few cups but never anything of note. On FM07, even less. However, I never really play with large teams so this is to be expected. What I can say is that whenever anything goes wrong I tend to blame myself, which is one of the reasons why I experiment so much with the sliders. After reading through the Sheffield United Project, a few more pieces in my rather sketchy jigsaw puzzle fell into place and, through fiddling on "full match" mode over most of a 38 game season with Aston Villa (amongst all my other hours and hours of playing) I think I'm finally in a position to explain exactly what each slider does. This is not definitive - it's what I observe playing the game with the players I have in the style I play, though most ideas are pretty universal. What I really want is to generate more discussion. Even if we work out what each slider does, we still need to know how to use it, right? 1.0 Mentality We should first kill one myth that is perhaps one of the last that I managed to shake off - team mentality does not completely override individual mentality. Here, we're looking at what the team instructions sliders do so we can move away from the finer points of how each individual setting can make a difference. We are given three basic clues to what mentality asks of our players. We can attack, we can defend or we can play somewhere in between (with all-out attack and defend as our last ditch options). What exactly is "defend" and what is "attack". The answer probably seems very obvious, but if you don't properly understand the difference then you could be using the other sliders ineffectuallly. 1.1: A defensive team looks to primarily keep the ball out of their own net. They will not look to take many risks in their own half, will hang back a little deeper in normal play, try to put their men behind the ball and generally do what is necessary to avoid shots on goal. There are implications for this in the way your team will play. Obviously, the aim is to concede as few goals as possible. But how will this make your players behave? From my observations, we can expect a team playing defensive mentality to do the following: <UL TYPE=SQUARE><LI>Be more prone to hoofing the ball out of defence than look for the passing option <LI>Look more for sideways and backwards passes when trying to hold possession than go for penetrative ball forward <LI>Attempt to get more men behind the ball... <LI>... And therefore play a little deeper <LI>Will be more likely to sit in their positions and not close down those on the ball so as not to be dragged out of shape Is is also clear, then, that some of our other tools will counteract these effects. Some may be desirable, others counter productive. Which ones will cause what? Passing will help us counteract the "hoofing" which may lead to a loss of possession. Shorter passing may encourage the player to use the options around him, perhaps encouraging a pass sideways. Or, on the other hand, longer passing may give the player more options, particularly on the wings where a pass may be less dangerous than to a central player. Passing will also help to counteract the sideways and backwards balls. Shorter passing may re-enforce this style of play, perfect for a side in the lead or a quality side looking to hold possession and tire out the opposition (a la the Manchester United sides of the mid-1990s). Longer passing on the other hand may encourage more forward balls to help get attacks moving yet still retain the defensive "shape" required. Linked to this we have the "try through balls", "run with ball" and "cross ball" options in the individual instructions, where rarely on each will re-enforce the possession play, wheras often will encourage more penetration. Tempo is another important tool. This was another slider that I thought had no defensive implications, yet I've found it invaluable in holding leads and breaking down teams playing possession football. A higher tempo encourages the players to find the ball and do something with it. Therefore the players are likely to close down the opposition more and perhaps sacrifice a little of their shape, but hopefully rush them into a mistake. A lower tempo can make it more clear to your players that you want them to hold firm. This should most obviously be used in conjunction with Closing Down. Then we have the more evident use of a quicker tempo. Those sideways and backwards balls we talked about can be encouraged by a slower tempo, or a more cavalier attitude can be sought with a quicker tempo. Be aware though that a quick tempo is likely to leave a player with fewer options and less time to play the ball. Creative freedom - as I will point out later, creative freedom is one I still haven't got my head fully around, and I usually leave this a little above normal and then set individuals to either creative or uncreative roles. With a defensive line up, I would say that creativity isn't a big deal - how creative is throwing your body in front of the opposition? I think this is up to the individual manager, though maybe having a few forward players on a higher setting will allow some good counter-attacking football. Width will be covered in more detail further down the page, but a quick note is useful. Narrower widths are obviously going to be more beneficial to a defending team as they can hold a tight middle to stop the team being penetrated - but too narrow and you leave the wings exposed. You won't need overly much width as you don't need to exploit the space - the opposition do. If you're playing on the counter, however, you may need to expand a little to make up for the natural tendency to play narrower in defensive situations. Defensive line is again something to be covered later in relation to the whole team. We can safely say a lower defensive line seems to go well with a team sitting back. A higher one will counteract the natural tendency to fall back when defending. Timewasting can be covered in far less detail as its uses are primarily an aesthetic one - do you want to kill a game off or do you desperately need a goal? Defensive mentalities lend themselves to higher timewasting as the team will be further encouraged to keep the ball, knock it into the corners and hold it. When the counter-attack ensues, your players should already be in position. However, I find it is equally likely to encourage the "hoof" from defence. Like I say, I think this is a matter of choice. 1.2: Now, attacking teams are, in many cases the opposite. The point of an attacking team is to outscore the opposition. Therefore we need to be as creative as possible, give ourselves room to play and generally get stuck into the opposition. Our team, when playing on an attacking setting is therefore likely to: <UL TYPE=SQUARE><LI>Look for more penetrative balls in an attempt to break down the opposition <LI>Attempt to run into space to give a passing option, maybe at the expense of positioning <LI>Move further up the pitch So, how will our other sliders help us? Passing works pretty much opposite to how it works for defensive teams. Longer passing will encourage even more balls forward, again re-enforcing this instruction. However, better quality teams may need to reduce their passing to encourage possession play and therefore reducing the "killer balls" to those which have a high percentage of working. Longer passing should give you more chances, though these are likely to be rushed and therefore off target. It's also more likely that you'll give the opposition the ball. Shorter passing will allow the team to systematically break down the opposition. Tempo is linked similarly. Slower tempos will help tone down the desire to move forward at all possible times, whereas a quicker one will encourage a more open game. A slower tempo and shorter passing will be more defensively sound, but will create fewer (but better quality) shots on goal. Creative freedom should be used pretty much the opposite to when in defence. Not too much (you'll end up with no shape at all), but creativity shouldn't be stifled either. We need to break them down, and we won't do that with monotonous balls over the top. Width is on the same lines. The team are playing with more natural width, so reduce it to tighten the defence, widen to utilise even more space. Defensive line - you get the picture. The team are naturally playing further up the pitch. Force them back by reducing this, encourage them forward by increasing it. There really is nothing more to say about timewasting. A mixed team will obviously need to use elements of both attacking and defensive slider settings and common sense should dictate what you choose to use. We've covered the links between each of the sliders above in good detail, so now we really only need to decide what the other sliders do and what their effects are on their brothers. Common sense should now prevail, and I can save my keyboard from the hammering it's getting! 2.0 Passing We have short a bit of a mixed bag, direct and long. Each is pretty self explanitory. Short will knock the ball around to nearby teammates, direct will look for players further up the field, and long will send speculative balls towards the rough direction of John Fashanu. All this is explained in the manual - but what about the affects on the team? 2.1: Short A mentality of 1 is, as some of the gurus have noted here, one touch passing. The other "short" options give us a progressively longer time on the ball and progressively longer passing options available. Short passing has its advantages - play is usually quick and played around to people close by, encouraging the team to keep possession and stretching the opposition who have to chase the ball all over the place. However, if players are too far apart or all the closeby players are tightly marked then the player has no option but to risk running with it or hoofing it away. Therefore short passing needs to make sure it always has options available as well as the obvious skills of reasonable ball control and passing accuracy. Then there's the problem of the soggy pitch. Short passing will: <UL TYPE=SQUARE><LI>Encourage the team to keep possession <LI>Keep the ball on the deck <LI>Prerserve the condition of your players Now, clearly passing and tempo are linked. A quicker tempo will move the ball around faster, but also make the players rush. Chances are that with a short passing game players will panic and kick the ball away. A bit counter productive. Slower tempo will get the players to take their time and pick the right pass. A higher defensive line may be required to keep the team closer together, and ditto with the width, but be aware that if you're trying to break down the opposition this could be counter productive and you may be better off giving the passing a couple more clicks to the right if things aren't going well. Creative freedom will allow the team to break from monotonous triangles and break down the opposition, but could equally lead to "hollywood balls" to nowhere. Finally timewasting may emphasise to the team that you just want to keep possession and couldn't care less if you broke out of your own half providing the opposition don't get the ball. Or, conversely, you may decide you want to quickly pass the ball around the opposition and get on goal as quickly as possible. 2.2 Direct and Long This system is by its very nature quick, penetrative and attacking. Very potent when used on the counter attack, it hits the opposition before they have chance to fully assemble their defence. More Bolton Wanderers than Bologna. However, it also reduces the time the team have on the ball, and a possession rating of 45% may actually be quite good. We all know, of course, that this doesn't matter if you can score 4 while the opposition plays pretty on-the-deck stuff but can't get into the final third. Direct football gives your team more options, but they will almost always choose to go to the forward players, i.e. wingers, attacking midfielders and strikers, and if the opposition can adequately mark them or are strong and good in the air then this system could just be giving the ball away. There is debate as to whether this system is better for lower league sides because it at least makes sure the team give the ball away in the opposition's half or whether short is better because it requires less skill to pass a ball over 5 yards than over 50. Personally, having watched League 2 a few times this year I'd go for direct or long, but this is personal preference based solely on my footballing background. Teams in England who aren't very skillful tend to go for this approach. Direct football then. It will: <UL TYPE=SQUARE><LI>Look for attacking players at every available opportunity <LI>Have a high amount of balls in the air <LI>Quickly move from the defence to the attack, good for counter attacking football <LI>Reduce possession, but increase the likely hood of getting shots on goal Again, tempo is linked. A quick tempo is implicit by the nature of the longer ball. Can you really hit a 40 yard pass slowly? I suppose you could try it to keep the ball on the deck and at the back and wait for the killer opportunity to arise, but then why not use short passing and counter attack with more "try through balls" selected? Creative freedom isn't as necessary in this system as the short game, but if you have a player who plays most of the forward balls he could do with a bit of freedom to choose his passes. A deep defensive line would encourage the opposition on to you to make the direct or long ball game more effective as the other team will be more out of position. Also good if used in conjunction with the counter attack. However, a higher line may help to negate some of the adverse affects of the direct system by encouraging at least a few build up passes first as the play will be squeezed more. Width is something you can choose. Wider witdth to give more attacking options, particularly on the wings? Narrower to deal with the inevitable counter attack from the opposition and encourage more balls over the top to a target man striker? This would, I feel, depend on the situation and your style of play. For the long ball, pretty much the same as direct, only emphasise everything. 3.0 Tempo Tempo serves two functions as far as I can tell. Primarily I believe it affects the pace of passing and how quickly the team should get from one end of the pitch to the other and how vital it is to shoot at every available opportunity. However, it also can serve as a defensive aid, making your players more concerned with regaining possession. Obviously the advantages and disadvantages stick out like a soree thumb - high tempo leaves the team more out of shape and creates rushed attacks; low tempo keeps the team tight and patient, only attacking when there is a good chance of success. The uses of tempo have been discussed above, though it's probably most heavily linked to passing. As a personal preference, I try to never have more than a three-notch gap between my passing and tempo as I see a quick-short passing game or a slow-long passing game completely contradictary. If you want to play a game like Arsenal (slow build up, but explosive counter attacking), check the counter-attack box. This would be far more advisable than trying to play short passing with a fast tempo as this would make the players dive in for challenges all over the place and leave your men out of position. Best to soak up the pressure then explode. As for creative freedom and defensive line I would base this more on your mentality and passing style. The rest should fall into place. However, it's safe to say that as a slow tempo implies short passing you're better off playing a style which keeps players closer together than spredding them far apart. See passing and mentality. 4.0 Creative Freedom Now I tend to keep creative freedom reasonably central and then change it for each individual, which isn't really the discussion here. However, as a rule of thumb I would keep this pretty neutral. Cleon has mentioned that he finds his players get stilted and confused with too low creative freedom, whilst it's plainly obvious that too much will result in a free-for-all and not much quality team play. There's plenty in other threads about the merits of low CF on centre backs, high CF on playmakers etc. Again, base this on individual players and personal preference. I would go further, but as we're only discussing team instructions, I would check back over the passing and mentality sections for a few ideas. 5.0 Width Three choices here - wide, narrow and normal. Wider play exploits the space of the wings, spreads out your players and therefore should leave more of your players in space to receive the ball and do something with it. Conversely, narrower play will keep the team tight and make sure that the opposition are forced wide from where it is virtually impossible to score (directly, obviously, but then they might be able to cross the ball and cause no end of damage). As a rule of thumb, find a "natural" width for your team. A width that allows some attacking room but will also be defensively tight. Then widen it to attack and get at a weaker opposition, tighten it to hold the defence together. Width can have an effect on passing as very short passing requires players to be quite close together. To play a wider width you may need to increase passing by a couple of notches just to make sure players have enough options. And, as we've discussed, because this is related to passing you may need to check tempo as well. A quick wide game against a better team may lead the team to be contracted on the defence then burst wide on the attack meaning players will get very tired very quickly. Width is also linked to defensive line, the "height" of the team if we are to look at the pitch as a tactical oblong (which it is). Narrow width and deep defensive line is fine to keep the box filled with men, but if playing an attacking mentality there will be lots of space inbetween the midfield and the defence. Wide width, low defensive line and attacking mentality may be useful to draw out a team who refuses to attack, but it leaves massive holes. Think about this when setting the width - what is the tradeoff between space for attacking and leaving a vacuum for the opposition to exploit? 6.0 Defensive Line As I say, the y axis to width's x. Defensive line can be used as a spacing tool like width, or as a defensive tool. Deep defensive lines are good for counter-attacking football as they draw the opposition in. They're also great for stopping the opposition's pacy forwards getting in behind you. However, if player and team mentalities are not closely spaced together it can leave the team with massive gaps between its midfield line and defensive line. High defensive lines can squeeze the play and give the opposition little room to move (particulalry if utilised with a narrow width) but leave the team vulnerable to the direct/long ball over the top. Tactical Theorums and Frameworks usually advises the defensive line to be on a "natural" setting of the same mentality as the most attacking midfielder so as to keep the gaps as narrow as possible while allowing the team space to breath. From this position you can go up or down based on the demands of the game, but stray too far and expect problems. Needless to say, if you wish to move quickly from a deep defense to the attack you'll need longer passing than usual, while a high line may allow you to play a shorter game as players should be available for one another. 7.0 Timewasting Timewasting is a funny old game, and I would never set off with this in mind. Even if I were playing Chelsea with Chester I would not go for a high timewasting setting from the off. Nor would I go for a low one if the roles were reversed. A neutral setting seems to work for me. With the slider dead on the centre, the team will play quicker when behind and be more prone to hold up the ball when ahead. They seem to do this naturally to what my natural preference would have been anyway. So I never change it. If you were to change it, then I think it's fairly logical. Quick tempo does not lend itself to more timewasting, unless you wish to negate some of its effects by artificially forcing it down by using timewasting. Switch this round for slow tempo games. Slow tempo, low timewasting. Rush, but don't rush? Quite contradictary. I steer well clear of this debate usually. 8.0 Conclusions We can see, then, how the sliders are inter-related. We can either emphasise certain effects by using the sliders in harmony, or try and tame some of their deficiencies by using complimentary instructions. For example: attacking, slow tempo - "I want you to go for goal, but don't rush things and make a mess of it". Or how about slow tempo, defensive - "I definitely don't want you to rush forward. Take your time. Just don't concede!" I will, perhaps later, draw up some sample instructions which would show some obviously contradictary instructions and some that perhaps work more in harmony. However, from this rough guide it should be fairly obvious how one affects the other. My starting point is always mentality, as shown by the emphasis on it in this guide. Then as we go through the list, passing is next important for me in deciding my style of play. This goes hand in hand with tempo, so there's two birds with one stone. Then I set my shape with width and defensive line. These decisions can be based on my opposition (do I need to counter-attack this team, or can I just go for it), the weather (I can't play along the ground on a bog), my team (my tall striker is injured, need to play to feet) or a combination of all of them. Cleon's thread will show how once this has been acheived, very few changes are needed game-to-game. It's long, I know, but I hope it helps some people. I feel that sometimes the settings seem obvious, but it's not until it's written down that you really understand the relationship between each slider. Writing this made it clearer in my head, and I hope you get the same from reading it. More importantly, I hope this can be practically applied to your games. Mille - 20 - i - 07 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cleon Posted January 20, 2007 Share Posted January 20, 2007 Nice post, I'll comment on it later. I just altered and fixed your tags Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cleon Posted January 20, 2007 Share Posted January 20, 2007 Nice post, I'll comment on it later. I just altered and fixed your tags Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kristian Posted January 20, 2007 Share Posted January 20, 2007 That's a great guide Millie. Excellent post, glad I refreshed though before suggesting Cleon or Rashidi come on and tidy it up a bit! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Millie Posted January 20, 2007 Author Share Posted January 20, 2007 <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Cleon: Nice post, I'll comment on it later. I just altered and fixed your tags </div></BLOCKQUOTE> Yes. That was neccessary I feel. Is there any reason why there isn't a preview feature on this forum? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
UNITED!!!!! Posted January 20, 2007 Share Posted January 20, 2007 excelent post millie as always, this has really opened my eyes in terms of relating the sliders and now i have many new ideas to try thanks again Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wwfan Posted January 20, 2007 Share Posted January 20, 2007 Good post. Articulate and well thought out. Enjoyed reading it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Millie Posted January 21, 2007 Author Share Posted January 21, 2007 As we live in the MTV generation (or have we moved on to the Google generation?) I'm currently thinking of drawing up a quick reference list of "symptoms" and "remedies" involving the sliders. Like "I want to play attacking, but my players are dragged out of position", etc. Perhaps a grid-like structure on how each slider affects the other. I realise it could be quite easy to get bogged down in that post (though I think once you've read the first section the rest follows on logically from there). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Millie Posted January 21, 2007 Author Share Posted January 21, 2007 And thanks for the kind words all! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pritchard Posted January 21, 2007 Share Posted January 21, 2007 Excellent post This is extacly what i've been looking for, a guide to what the sliders actually do and how they interact with each other. Really helped me alot, thanks Millie. Top man. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cleon Posted January 21, 2007 Share Posted January 21, 2007 <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Millie: As we live in the MTV generation (or have we moved on to the Google generation?) I'm currently thinking of drawing up a quick reference list of "symptoms" and "remedies" involving the sliders. Like "I want to play attacking, but my players are dragged out of position", etc. Perhaps a grid-like structure on how each slider affects the other. I realise it could be quite easy to get bogged down in that post (though I think once you've read the first section the rest follows on logically from there). </div></BLOCKQUOTE> Be worth it, but a lot of hard work. Especialy when dealing with the mentality sliders and how they effect closing down. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pritchard Posted January 21, 2007 Share Posted January 21, 2007 Sorry to double post, but forgot to add. I would really like, as a follow on to this great post to hear your thoughts on how the player intructions then interact and contradict with the team instructions, Millie. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Millie Posted January 21, 2007 Author Share Posted January 21, 2007 <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by pritchard: Sorry to double post, but forgot to add. I would really like, as a follow on to this great post to hear your thoughts on how the player intructions then interact and contradict with the team instructions, Millie. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> Wow, that would take another mini-tome! I have a few ideas I might be able to put down, but to be honest with you I don't really tend to use that many individual instructions - mentality I change a lot, and a few creative players here and there, but mainly I leave the individuals as they are. It would take a lot more thought. I might get back to you. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cobalt272 Posted January 21, 2007 Share Posted January 21, 2007 Wow, fantastic work Millie. Well written and oragnised, great read. Thanks for the effort!! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
UNITED!!!!! Posted January 21, 2007 Share Posted January 21, 2007 <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> quote: Originally posted by Millie: As we live in the MTV generation (or have we moved on to the Google generation?) I'm currently thinking of drawing up a quick reference list of "symptoms" and "remedies" involving the sliders. Like "I want to play attacking, but my players are dragged out of position", etc. Perhaps a grid-like structure on how each slider affects the other. I realise it could be quite easy to get bogged down in that post (though I think once you've read the first section the rest follows on logically from there). Be worth it, but a lot of hard work. Especialy when dealing with the mentality sliders and how they effect closing down. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> couldn't agree more Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
goal74 Posted January 26, 2007 Share Posted January 26, 2007 We should first kill one myth that is perhaps one of the last that I managed to shake off - team mentality does not completely override individual mentality. Does it mean that if you customize each players' sliders then the team mentality would be somewhat ineffectual? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
UNITED!!!!! Posted January 27, 2007 Share Posted January 27, 2007 <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Does it mean that if you customize each players' sliders then the team mentality would be somewhat ineffectual? </div></BLOCKQUOTE> no i think that team mentality and individual work hand in hand. the individual telling the player how to play positionally and aggressively whereas the team is telling the team how to play attacking or defensive. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corned beef & cabbage Posted January 27, 2007 Share Posted January 27, 2007 Top post Millie. A very instructive and enjoyable read. Well put. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Millie Posted January 27, 2007 Author Share Posted January 27, 2007 <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by UNITED!!!!!: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Does it mean that if you customize each players' sliders then the team mentality would be somewhat ineffectual? </div></BLOCKQUOTE> no i think that team mentality and individual work hand in hand. the individual telling the player how to play positionally and aggressively whereas the team is telling the team how to play attacking or defensive. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> That's how I read it now, yes. There is a marked difference in my playing style when I change the team mentality, but I never touch the individual ones once I've set them up. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mulpetre Posted February 7, 2007 Share Posted February 7, 2007 My interpretation of team mentality and individual mentality are that team mentality dictates how your team react when not on the ball. Whereas individual mentalities dictate how a player reacts when he has the ball. So say team mentality is defensive, that would mean all players look to defend and limit space when not in posession, but once posession is regained, the individual mentalities kick in and if say your AMC is set to attacking on indiv mental then once he has posession he will look for attacking options but once he looses posession his mentality mixes with the team one of defensive. does anyone else agree? Furthermore, although millie touched on this indirectly, i think it is obvious that passing style and width are one. This is just a suggestion but i would be inclined to say that width and passing settings should be exactly the same as each other. This is based on millies idea that longer passing requires more space whereas short passing needs people closer together. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Millie Posted February 7, 2007 Author Share Posted February 7, 2007 <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by mulpetre: Furthermore, although millie touched on this indirectly, i think it is obvious that passing style and width are one. This is just a suggestion but i would be inclined to say that width and passing settings should be exactly the same as each other. This is based on millies idea that longer passing requires more space whereas short passing needs people closer together. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> Hmm, not entirely convinced. Like I say, you can use the sliders to re-enforce eachother or to complement eachother. You can play wide width, short passing, and indeed this is probably preferable in certain situations in trying to break down a team who have no intentions of attacking you. Your system probably would be useful in keeping a team tight and tidy, allowing a good spacing of players, but what about against good teams? You may want to play direct and quick to hit them on the break, but would need narrow width to stop Ronaldinho et al running straight through you. I think width has more than just passing connotations to it, so I think you need to consider your other slider settings and the strengths/weaknesses of the opposition before trying to marry the sliders too closely. However, it's an interesting idea for setting up a "natural" shape and style for the team. <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">My interpretation of team mentality and individual mentality are that team mentality dictates how your team react when not on the ball. Whereas individual mentalities dictate how a player reacts when he has the ball. So say team mentality is defensive, that would mean all players look to defend and limit space when not in posession, but once posession is regained, the individual mentalities kick in and if say your AMC is set to attacking on indiv mental then once he has posession he will look for attacking options but once he looses posession his mentality mixes with the team one of defensive. does anyone else agree? </div></BLOCKQUOTE> Interesting. I'll take a good look at that, but I can't really comment until I look for it. But nice hypothesis. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mulpetre Posted February 8, 2007 Share Posted February 8, 2007 <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Hmm, not entirely convinced. Like I say, you can use the sliders to re-enforce eachother or to complement eachother. You can play wide width, short passing, and indeed this is probably preferable in certain situations in trying to break down a team who have no intentions of attacking you. Your system probably would be useful in keeping a team tight and tidy, allowing a good spacing of players, but what about against good teams? You may want to play direct and quick to hit them on the break, but would need narrow width to stop Ronaldinho et al running straight through you. I think width has more than just passing connotations to it, so I think you need to consider your other slider settings and the strengths/weaknesses of the opposition before trying to marry the sliders too closely. However, it's an interesting idea for setting up a "natural" shape and style for the team. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> On second thoughts your probably right to slightly disagree with me on this one. It was just a theory that i thought seemed logical, however, i then went to try and implement it with my middlesbrough team and i had the exactly problem you described. against chelsea, they were playing with their usual 4-1-3-2 formation and played very narrow.The only width they had was coming from their fullback steaming forward at every oppotunity, even to my by-line at times. i was playing a 4-3-1-2 formation with 3 centre mids and one attacking mid. I tried to make a narrow formation when i didnt have the ball and when i had the ball my team created as much width as possible as i believe this is the only way to beat chelsea. i was looking to get down their flanks on the counter attack once their fullbacks steamed forward. So on the outer 2 centre midfielders which was morrison and downing i place Farrows going diagonal to AML/R. This way when i had the ball downing and morrison would sprint to the touchline and fullbacks would come forward. However, i played with a narrow width setting and matched the passing to near short. So when i did get the ball and was looking to break quickly, they would pass it because the ball that was on wasnt short enough. So, i am now going to try something which may or may not work. seeing as though i am playing with 3 centre mids i am compact anyway due to numbers.and i can become fluently wide instantly when i have the ball. but what i may do is alter the width setting to somewhere near wide so that that gaps are slightly bigger but means my players will have slightly more time to receive the ball due to it taking the team to close me down slower because my plaers are more spaced out. Then im going to alter the passing to direct. This should allow my players when they get the ball to look for the slightly longer option of downing and morrison on the wings so i can counter attack quickly. If anyone can think of any reasons why this may not work or fail completely then i would be pleased to hear feedback. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mulpetre Posted February 8, 2007 Share Posted February 8, 2007 My game crashed before i had chance to save it however, im working on a new tactic at the moment. Not tested it yet but looks to me to have a lot of potential going forward and defending. When in posession of the ball the formation is a 2-2-1-3-2 but this (in theory) is able to fluently revert to a 4-1-3-1-1 when not in posession. Will do a bit of testing to see how this fares. as long as the setting are right i dont see any reason why liquid formations shouldnt work. As you can see. when im not in posession it reverts to a neat, compact system, which can quickly mechanise into an attacking system of play. If i am not having much luck i might post the tactic and ask for suggestions on how to tweak the players they make the system perform better. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Millie Posted February 25, 2007 Author Share Posted February 25, 2007 As a foot note... <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">We should first kill one myth that is perhaps one of the last that I managed to shake off - team mentality does not completely override individual mentality. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> I'm now not convinced that team and individual go hand in hand. In fact, many recent discussions and testing have led me to the conclusion that it's best to assume that all ticked individual sliders will overide the team ones. There could well be an effect from changing the team slider, but this is for each individual player to decide. As for me, I don't feel confident one way or the other to definitively say "this is how it works". I am, however, leaning towards the idea that individual overrides team. You can decide for yourself whether to believe that or not. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
socks Posted February 26, 2007 Share Posted February 26, 2007 is there any evidence of these tips working in practice? ie a tactic that can be downloaded to show how the team improves with a formation that uses these principles? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Millie Posted February 27, 2007 Author Share Posted February 27, 2007 <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by socks: is there any evidence of these tips working in practice? ie a tactic that can be downloaded to show how the team improves with a formation that uses these principles? </div></BLOCKQUOTE> wwfan's frameworks work on the basis that tempo, passing and width should remain the same/similar in order to keep the team tight and the passing at a decent rate and length. So, in some respects, yes, as his "Rule of One" frameworks work on the principle that these sliders should re-enforce each other, not against each other. Most tactics you'll find on this board, either consciously or otherwise, will take many of the assumptions made above as true. However, this wasn't a thread designed as a theory or framework, but a point of discussion on what the sliders do. Cleon's thread shows how he tweaks his settings using the sliders, and most of his changes would follow the above. But as I say that you can use the different instructions to re-enforce a tactical style (such as playing a slow tempo and short passing in order to make sure the team build slowly with no long passes) or combat unwanted effects (such as playing a quick tempo with short passing to get up the pitch faster but with short, precise passes) it's a question of individual taste as to how you impliment them. If you were to use this thread as a basis for your own tactic (which I wouldn't advocate doing before you read a few other threads - certainly Slider Apathy, TT&F and the Sheffield United Project) then work out how you want to play. Attacking, short passes, and patient? Then look at each slider and set them to how you want them. Then, look at how your team play on full highlights in a friendly and ask yourself how the style can be improved. Does it need to be more patient? Then you have options - lower tempo, increase timewasting, lower passing, lower mentality. If you don't feel you want to do one of those, then there are alternatives. This thread is really a guide to show how you can ballance the sliders against each other to heighten or dampen the effects of one slider or another. The other use of the thread is to show you the options available by suggestion how each slider affects another. I hope that makes sense. I was beginning to lose myself there. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
socks Posted February 28, 2007 Share Posted February 28, 2007 Im more intersted in practical solutions than theorums, but each to their own. Theres a lot of literature on the different sites, and each has their own set of 'bibles' with authors defining a lot of football terms in extrapolated language telling us this does that etc but serve little practcal function ie as far as im concerned what is going to beat the ai being the only question worth answering. And please dont take this personally as Ive read your work and I commented on the thread as it was one of the only ones that showed some deeper thought, but many of the changes advocated by these bibles simply doesnt qwork well in practice - for example: recommending to change mentality, creativity, aggression etc of the back line according to each position - in my tests your much better off leaving all the sliders central and everyone on the same mentaility - but i dont see this sort of approach anywhere because all the authors writing the bibles seem more obsessed with mentally tweaking every possible element without showing any proof that it actually works. Personally I work out the affects of different tactics and sliders against opponents on the pitch, not on paper. Nothing personal. Good work. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Millie Posted March 1, 2007 Author Share Posted March 1, 2007 <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by socks: Im more intersted in practical solutions than theorums, but each to their own. Theres a lot of literature on the different sites, and each has their own set of 'bibles' with authors defining a lot of football terms in extrapolated language telling us this does that etc but serve little practcal function ie as far as im concerned what is going to beat the ai being the only question worth answering. And please dont take this personally as Ive read your work and I commented on the thread as it was one of the only ones that showed some deeper thought, but many of the changes advocated by these bibles simply doesnt qwork well in practice - for example: recommending to change mentality, creativity, aggression etc of the back line according to each position - in my tests your much better off leaving all the sliders central and everyone on the same mentaility - but i dont see this sort of approach anywhere because all the authors writing the bibles seem more obsessed with mentally tweaking every possible element without showing any proof that it actually works. Personally I work out the affects of different tactics and sliders against opponents on the pitch, not on paper. Nothing personal. Good work. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> No offence taken. Believe me, the whole point of many bible and theory threads is exactly the goal you pointed out - beating the AI. Whether you favour a simple or complex approach to that is down to the individual player. The goal of this particular thread was purely theoretical and offers no solutions. However, I don't feel you can say that the practical threads out there make contentions without backing them up. TT&F with its Rule of One principles, for instance, works. At least, it does for me. Similarly, Cleon's threads are virtually devoid of overt theorising yet they are clearly based on principles. <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Personally I work out the affects of different tactics and sliders against opponents on the pitch, not on paper. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> I always look at what happens on the pitch before commiting it to paper. Anything else would be highly foolish (anyone remember that "Grid Theory" thread?). I may make hypotheses from time-to-time, but I would never give definitive advice without testing it and actually using it myself. Theory threads, proposals, hypotheses and all that jazz are a way of showing people struggling with the game a different approach. And since it has become nigh-on impossible to win with an unchanged tactic over a season, knowing how a tactic (and more broadly the game engine in general) works is crucial to getting the most out of it. This particular thread just shows what sliders you can move, and what those sliders are likely to do to your team. How, if, when you use them is completely up to you. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cleon Posted March 1, 2007 Share Posted March 1, 2007 <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> I always look at what happens on the pitch before commiting it to paper </div></BLOCKQUOTE> Same here, but a lot of people come up with theories without even testing them and putting it into practise Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
socks Posted March 1, 2007 Share Posted March 1, 2007 Thanks for replying. I did write that after spending an hour looking through different tactical threads and finding nothing that i was confident of bringing to my tactics (when i make a tactical change, i test the effcts over 4 or 5 replays of the exact same game, moving a single slider accordingly to stand a chance of analysing the result over a few game sand in the same condition). I think the problem is, you dont know who to trust when you read their work - i would still like to see some downloadable tactics which demonstrate and prove any particular notion, and also the affect this has on an opponents players and movement, not just on your own players (which is also generally lacking!). I will be putting my money where my mouth is and publishing an example of how i go about testing slider movements shortly, so i hope you pay me a visit and let me have it, both barrels I'll post a link here when its done so you and other people can follow our discussion and methods. cheers, socks Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
A.L Posted March 26, 2007 Share Posted March 26, 2007 Can i ask what the difference is between direct and short passing is? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Millie Posted March 26, 2007 Author Share Posted March 26, 2007 Short passes will be aimed, usually, at the nearest player regardless of whether he's infront, to the side or behind the player with the ball. This hopes to keep possession of the ball by not making long, interceptable passes, but short passes to unmarked team mates who can then look for other options. However, this can backfire if there are no options available and can result in quite a lot of possession but no real chances to score. Direct passing may also pass it to a player nearby, but will nearly always look to go forward. Passes are also more likely to be airbourne. This system looks to get the ball to the forwards to create chances as quickly as possible so as to get more attempts on goal, but obviously there's more chance of the passes being intercepted. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Millie Posted March 26, 2007 Author Share Posted March 26, 2007 This is explained in the first post, if you check the relevant sections. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
A.L Posted March 26, 2007 Share Posted March 26, 2007 Thank you Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dayle Wood Posted March 26, 2007 Share Posted March 26, 2007 Good read mate. I'd be interested to hear your take on implementing 'hold up ball' when you get the time. Advantages, disadvantages and where in the formation you see it best utilised. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cleon Posted February 8, 2008 Share Posted February 8, 2008 This thread got auto locked because noone posted in in for a while but it's still very useful and I'm sure it can help people out. So therefore bump!!!! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
The next Diaby Posted February 8, 2008 Share Posted February 8, 2008 <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Cleon: This thread got auto locked because noone posted in in for a while but it's still very useful and I'm sure it can help people out. So therefore bump!!!! </div></BLOCKQUOTE> Brilliant idea. Bump too. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
heathxxx Posted February 11, 2008 Share Posted February 11, 2008 Have not had the time with work commitments to get my own FM08 specific "sliders" thread together, so would like to take the opportunity to... ***BUMP** ...this thread. I think it pretty much covers what I was aiming at discussing, so I shall post any further theories I have in this thread and hope others will too. I would also suggest that people re-direct posts for slider advice here too, as it's pretty comprehensive. Hopefully we can update things to compensate for changes specific to FM08 (as this post was created originally by Millie for FM07.) The basics are the same in principal, but there are a few subtle changes SI have made and apparently will be making in the next patch. For example, I believe they will be tweeking creative freedom effects in regards to player attributes. Apologies for not getting my own post up again. Work is rather busy at the moment and I just can't devote the time I would like to start the new thread. Hopefully this post originally by Millie helps many and that we can continue the discussions from here. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mitja Posted February 11, 2008 Share Posted February 11, 2008 this year SI changed player mentality, so it over rides team. of course this is no theory I did tests and I think that's quite obvious. on 07 player mentality was more "positional"- it influenced player hight on defoult position. and team mentality determined style of playing. I liked that aproach more. now, player mentality simply over rides team. for example if you have one of your MCs on defensive mentality he'll play just the same if team mentality is set to defensive. (less risks, less balls forward...). also positionaly you won't see much difference if you put 1 MC to most att mentaality and other to most def mentality. the only difference will be that your att one will allways try to pass the ball forward and def one allmost never. I liked more "positional player mentality" for 2 reasons. first is simple, you could define where your player will stand on the pitch. the other is more complecated. and it's linked to tempo. I can't find right words for this, but I'll try. this mentality thing has also to do why att/fast/direct style doesn't work very well now. player with attacking mentality will try to pass the ball forward as soon as it's possibile. and that's wrong. this is tactical/match engine problem. becouse mentality over rides your tempo set up. mentality shouln't have influence how fast the ball should go forward, IMHO. it should influence how quickly should player go up (forward runs?) and how quickly will team open and with how many players (forwrd runs?). there is a mess with this if you add to that time wating, basicly we have mentality-tempo-time wasting which influence what only tempo should, IMHO. PS I hope this makes some sense. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
theboywonder Posted February 13, 2008 Share Posted February 13, 2008 6.1.2. Team Instructions Mentality Mentality directly affects a players position on the field. His set position on the tactical pitch display is where he will line up as a base default, but depending on the mentality set he may be more restrained in the or cavalier in his approach. The slider ranges from Ultra Defensive to All Out Attacking. The further right the slider is set for team instructions, the more aggressive your players will play positionally and more ambitious they may be when passing the ball (a more aggressive mentality will result in more forward passes). 6.1.3. Player Instructions Mentality When set for a player, it applies in the same manner as it does for the team as detailed in section 6.1.2. Amazing how simple it is when you read the instruction manual! From this we can establish the following: 1) team mentality means nothing if all 11 players have individual instructions. If you have a group of players on the same mentality though set them as team just to make it easier to tweak mentalities in game. 2) Directly affects a players position on the field - if everyone is on normal mentality except your cm for instance is on attacking/defensive they he will be positioned higher or further down the pitch than the rest. 3) If a player is more attacking mentality not only will he be positioned higher up the pitch but he will play more attacking forward passes, whereas defensive plays more defensive balls. Thats it in a nutshell. If you want your striker to play deeper then yes lower his mentality but this would reduce the amount of forward attacking plays he makes. Likewise i read a lot of people wanting to have their dms playing through balls but to do this you would need a more attacking mentality so again beware as whilst this will work you will see him playing further up the pitch. I would always advise to keep the bulk of your players on normal, maybe drop your cb's mentality to defensive and then increase maybe 1 or 2 of your most influential playmaking midfielders/strikers mentality. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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