4-4-2 Box Midfield

[shunterbaby]

Great thread. Just wondering do you think it would work for a LLM team.

[jamesm]

Great thread uncle sam, this is the same tactic i used with my hearts team on 8.0.1 to great success and i only really stumbled accross it to be honest.

I went on holiday and this is the tactic my assistant played which i decided to carry on, only change i really made was that away from home in europe i went with one striker set to hold up the ball and an am with free role ticked.

On occasions i could go several games without conceding a goal. My record one year was 9 games.

[lawd]

Most amazing thread ever in T&TT. Very good work, especially for a yank

might be worth having this in the tactic bible or summit so any one who wants to post a tactic can see how to do it properly.

[Cleon]

It should already be in the tactics bible..

[Uncle_Sam]

Originally posted by bluenose1:

Sam,

just wanted to know your reasoning for the following:

How come the striker who makes forward runs is also the one who holds up ball?

shouldn't it be the other way around?

Thanks,

Yea, I think I was playing around with something when I uploaded those. I had a spell where I was trying to determine if it made a difference which side of the pitch the tall striker was on and it was during this experiment that I uploaded the tactics. I'm endlessly fiddling with things like that.

The purpose of the thread was more to get a discussion going, exchange ideas on the formation since it's the one I prefer using. I didn't really intend it to be a "here's the tactic, go win the league" sort of thread. I don't like doing those types of threads because those all seem to get the same responses. I remember a few years ago Fantastic uploaded the default 4-4-2 that is packaged with the game as a joke, and half the people declared it genius, the other half said it was crap.

[omri_in_india]

first of all, amazing thread.

second, as this is pretty similar to 2 tactics i`ve been using, i`d like to point something that troubles me (maybe you have an answer for that) - don`t you have too much space either between the 2 MCs to the strikers or between the 2 DMCs to the 2 AMCs ?

my fav tactic up until FM08 was a 4-1-2-1-2 when the 2 MC are in the middle (sometimes i gave them side arrows - if the players were good enough as wingers), and with having the 2 MCs and 1 AMC i`ve created less space between the attack and midfield. however i haven`t managed to make this tactic work well in FM08 yet. a new tactic i`ve been trying lately, more similar to yours is a 4-2-1-2-1 - that is 4 behind with attacking full-backs, 2 DMs, 2 AMCs (so far similar to yours) but i`ve removed a striker and put in the middle a MC - again to create less space between the attack and defence. the one striker i do have is playing as a target-man and the 2 AMCs are encouraged to run forward for balls he distributes. i`m also thinking of giving the AMC side arrows - like you pointed out. (it`s still a work in progress, but in 2 games i`ve had a 0-0 away in my first game of the season, and a 4-1 away with the target-man getting 3 assists to the AMCs).

anyway, just my 2 cents

[heathxxx]

I remember a few years ago Fantastic uploaded the default 4-4-2 that is packaged with the game as a joke, and half the people declared it genius, the other half said it was crap.

Sadly people are too keen to download a tactic without really understanding it first, hoping it's a magical "one size fits all". Half of the time, I doubt people read the full posts and just download the tactic.

Posts like this are a refreshing change and make for enjoyable reading.

[Chris Robinson]

WOW! That is some serious effort. Great stuff but does it work in countrys and lower leagues that are not blessed with brazilians an tech gifted players?? eg Scotland, English lower leagues.

Really good post and an interesting article. 2thumbs up!!!

[DB11]

What an introduction. Simply for that I will try this tactic

[Uncle_Sam]

Still plugging away with my box midfield, endlessly tinkering.

I was on the crapper reading some of my Carlos Alberto Parreira stuff and I came across an article from just before the 2006 World Cup. He stated that the team would win in Germany would be the team who could get the most players forward when attacking and back when defending. While it turned out that the two teams who contested the world cup final were basically content to stare at each other across the center line for 120 minutes, his statement pretty well defines the goals of his system and one of the tactical keys to succeeding in Football Manager.

So with this in mind, I wanted to try and use arrows and forward runs to create a tactic that could be solid in defense and attack. I went back to when I was a wee 14 (15 in two days) year old lad when Brazil defeated the USA in the 1994 World Cup. Below is how Brazil's formation operated on that day:

This isn't exactly how it looked, as Romario was basically centrally located and Bebeto basically played as a floater underneath Romario. Causing havoc by moving in and out space, drawing defenders (scoring the winning goal that piece of crap ), pretty much with ultimate freedom of movement up front.

Wingbacks: Looking at this diagram, we can determine that Jorginho was much more attack minded than Leonardo. This was intentional as Jorginho had more attacking skill. With Dunga also more on the right side, Brazil was very right-handed in their attack in 1994. While my team in FM doesn't necessarily play this way, I point this out for the specific reason that you not have two outstanding attacking wingbacks and therefore make one of them more defensive.

Holding Midfielders: As we see, Mauro Silva was almost entirely defensive. He only rarely ventured forward and on the rare occasion he did it was only when he had Dunga there for defensive support. Dunga was the personification of the Brazilian team in that world cup. He wasn't flashy or particularly spectacular with the ball like Kaka or Ronaldinho or some of the Brazilians we see today. The biggest club he played for was Fiorentina. But he was gritty, smart, and worked hard. He supported the attack, but he picked his moments to go forward and never recklessly left his teammates in a bind. I have my holding midfielders setup like this except I have them flip-flopped with the Dunga-type playing on the left.

Attacking Midfielders: Basically they roam below the forwards and fill in the spaces on the flanks. Zinho and Mazinho's main role was to link the ball to the forwards. Those guys weren't real flashy either, but in 2006 the positions were occupied by Ronaldinho and Kaka.

Forwards: I already briefly described how the partnership worked in 1994 for Brazil, but I currently have my big forward on the right and my quick forward on the left. To compliment this, I have my left sided players crossing the ball to the far post since theoretically that is where my tall forward should be to head the ball in. I have experimented with trying to create the 94 pairing, and the best way I discovered was to put the tall striker in the dead center FC location with and the other striker at FCR or FCL. I imagine it would be useful if you had a team who, like 94 Brazil, attacks better down one side of the pitch. But my team right now is pretty balanced so the formation I have come up with is like this:

The wingbacks do a better job going forward than you would think at first glance. I have them set with forward runs on often and a reasonably high mentality (11 I think). You also see Edu with a forward arrow and probably think, "Hey, wait a second Uncle Sam, you said the Mauro Silva player never goes forward! What gives?" Well, if you'd give me a freaking second I would explain. Sheesh. I found that without those arrows, it leaves a gap between the attacking midfielders and the holding midfielders. The arrows causes the holding mids to step forward more and challenge the ball (at least in my experience). He still has a very low mentality and his forward runs are set to rarely.

I also have creative freedom set very very low. The center backs and the Mauro Silva position set to none at all. The wingbacks have a setting of 3, the Dunga position and tall forward set at 5, and the quick striker set at 8. The attacking midfielders have it set at 11 so they can have a little freedom to create. Basically, I don't these guys screwing things up.

----

So that's some of the basic settings. It's by far the best box midfield tactic I've used on WSM. I don't really want to post the tactic, I;d rather the members take the principles from the first post and combine them with the ideas in this post and see what they can come up with. Perhaps I will post my settings later on and if enough of you threaten my life or stick enough pins a voodoo doll that looks like me, I will post the tactic(s).

[Uncle_Sam]

Apologies for the typing in that last post. Absolutely atrocious. It reads like the unintelligible ramblings of a schoolboy. If you have trouble understanding any of it, don't be afraid to ask. And let it also serve as the perfect example of why you must proof-read your posts.

[AcidBurn]

I am a novice when it comes to tactics but i will ask anyway. How do you know what tactic to use Attack, balanced, counter and overload.

I take it when you are favourite you use attack when its even balanced and counter when you are not the favourite, overload when you need a goal?

Or is this completely wrong and you just change according to what happens in the game?

[Uncle_Sam]

To be honest, I am down to 2, MAYBE 3 tactics right now. But when I did use 4 or 5 I would start out with the attack, unless I was the away underdog. In that case I would start with balanced and go from there. If I was a heavy underdog, say, Brentford v Chelsea, I would start with counter attack.

But if I were you I would trash those and start with the formation I just posted. It works pretty well in all situations that I've encountered. The only time I change it is against the 4-2-4, and even then the shape stays the same. I also have a chase tactic for when I desperately need a goal.

[AcidBurn]

But if I were you I would trash those and start with the formation I just posted. It works pretty well in all situations that I've encountered. The only time I change it is against the 4-2-4, and even then the shape stays the same. I also have a chase tactic for when I desperately need a goal.

I would like to use this formation but thought it would better to get the voodoo doll out so you post the tactic lol.

Thanks for the advice, I am useless at setting up tactics I can never get them to work but I may just try this as the opening post was brilliant and intrigued me alot.

[Spikester]

Brilliant read again Sam

[Uncle_Sam]

Ok, well I'm caving in. I was going to wait until I felt I had just about perfected the tactic before uploading, but I never stop tinkering so I'm just going to give it to you guys as a starting point. I'm putting up two tactics, an attack and a defend. If you're favored the attack should work fine and even sometimes if you're the underdog. If the other side comes after you then the defend version may be the best option.

As always, I don't promise anything and I suggest yo tailor it to your personnel as I've tried to make everything as generic as possible.

4-4-2 Box

[Scutterman]

Alright mate,

Just like to be the first to give you some feedback on your tactic.

First of all, I was doing quite well with the tactic I had but I stumbled across this excellent thread, had a read and decided to give your tactic a try. I'm Rangers, my next game was PSG at home in the Champions League. Managed to win 4-0, dominating possession and playing some crackin football. The system seems to fit the players that I have really well, no real tweaks made as I have a couple of good DMCs and two good wing backs.

Thanks very much and keep up the good work.

PS I had your man Altidore for a while, bought him for £700k, sold him on to Lyon for £6m. Then he turned into a wonderkid! Doh!

[Mike_Cardinal]

Utterly brilliant tactic, even better thread.

I took one look at it, and instantly thought Barcelona. I've never been them before, as I generally don't like big teams, but it just seemed to suit them down to a tee.

You simply retrain Iniesta to DM, and swap the offensive DM to the right rather than the left to suit Yaya Toure, and then you have it, no signings needed. I just invested in youth instead. A few tweaks are needed, as always and as it should be. I would hate to use a tactic that I hadn't had any say in myself.

But, this team are playing the most beautiful football I have ever seen on FM. Ronaldinho and Messi in the two AM positions... they utterly tear teams apart, and Eto'o and Henry pick up the pieces. It's actually quite frightening, Ronaldinho seems to just it. Set his Long Shots to "Often", and cue 25 goals and 40 assists a season.

[Uncle_Sam]

Glad you're having success with it. I've never used it at a big club (not really used with a very small club either), but I always thought it would be suited for a Barca or Madrid.

[ScottehFTM]

Hey Sam.

Just wanted to say nice thread mate and thanks for giving me a bit of insight into Brazillian football.

I'm not using your tactic at the momment (doing ok with one of www2's) but i've donwloaded it and will try it at some point in the future.

[ubos]

Any links besides filefront? Keeps telling me I have an invalid session set or something. Very interested.

[Uncle_Sam]

4-4-2 Box.

Try that one.

[ubos]

Rapidshare is worse. Any chance of a mediafire mirror or something please?

[sherica-]

Sendspace

Media

just trying to help spread this fantastic work of art

[stelly999]

Uncle_Sam,

I'm sure I won't be the first to express my gratitude for the hard work you've obviously put into this thread.

I took the fundamental stuff and formation out of your excellent Box Midfield tactic and after one or two game months, the results have been corking!

I inherited a decent Arsenal squad at the beginning of season 2 and I play with Fabregas and Gilberto (occasionally Lassana Diarra - Big G's getting on...) with Rosicky and Maxi Rodriguez in AMCs, RVP and Aguero up front and after tailoring the tatcic to my players as is widely recommended, the results have been tremendous. Lovely football with four players scoring for fun. And not forgetting absolutely sound defensively, the best I've seen.

Cheers!

PS: unhappy about the link made between your bad spelling and schoolboys

[suikoden]

unclesam do you use OI? Or would that disrupt this important shape formation too much?

[Uncle_Sam]

Originally posted by suikoden:

unclesam do you use OI? Or would that disrupt this important shape formation too much?

Not really. The only one I use is the "Show on weaker foot" when a striker is completely one-footed.

One thing I do very often (almost every game in fact) is have my left FC specific man mark the opposition DM or MCd. This goes a long way towards disrupting possession for the opponent as otherwise he may have excessive time on the ball. Basically gives you a 5-man midfield when defending.

[Uncle_Sam]

Took over Wolfsburg in the third season after the club narrowly fought off relegation in the first two seasons. The team is very average and to be honest they do not fit the tactic but we still sit third in the league after 19 games. After an adjustment period in the first half of the season, things are really taking off and we're thinking Europe now. Here is a fairly typical result against HSV:

Should have won by more but Charlie Davies can't kick the ball into the ocean from a row boat (9 in finishing). He had 7 shots and only put 1 on target.

Thought not as dominant, we have wins over FC Bayern and Dortmund and took all six points from Werder Bremen in a season where the board just wanted to stave off relegation. We figure to finish in the top 4-5 and I look for next season to be a big one.

[Uncle_Sam]

One of the secrets of the game is that in order to score, you must have the football. A similar nugget of wisdom is that your opponent can not score if they do not have the football. Because of this possession has always been an important aspect of Brazilian football. They treat the ball as a precious commodity, not to be recklessly given away.

It is well known that the possession statistic is not perfect in Football Manager, but it should not be disregarded either. Below are my possession statistics for my current season with Wolfsburg (competitive matches only):

@ Bielefield 65-35

Werder Bremen 54-46

@ HSV 55-45

Koln 50-50

@ Nurnberg 57-43

Dortmund 50-50

@ Hertha BSC 57-43

@ Frankfurt 58-42

Stuttgart 53-47

@ Bochum 49-51

FC Bayern 52-48

at Hannover 56-44

at Rostock 53-47

Leverkusen 53-47

at Furth 56-44

Schalke 61-39

at Duisburg 54-46

Offenbach 51-49

at Osnabruck 65-35

at Schalke 60-40

at Werder Bremen 57-43

HSV 63-37

at Koln 55-45

Nurnberg 61-39

at Dortmund 48-52

Hertha BSC 64-36

As you can see, 22 of 26 matches I won (an and in most cases dominated) possession. 2 matches I was even in possession, and only twice was I outpossessed (by narrow margins). Both cases I outshot the opponent (15-10 v Bochum and 15-3 v Dortmund), and I believe that a shot on goal actually hurts your possession and this could have been a contributing factor to why I did win possession. Also, in both cases I played from behind and the opponent was time wasting and trying to kill the clock. It is also worth mentioning that both matches I did not win possession, I lost.

[x42bn6]

Good thread, but I also believe that this is the formation that got Luxemburgo fired from Real Madrid (his "Magic Rectangles", which didn't work) and Carlos Alberto Parreira from Brazil (trying to put Ronaldinho, Kaka, Ronaldo and Adriano in the same lineup) - just a thought.

[suikoden]

unclesam kudos to you mate. I was kinda skeptical if this would work or not. As we all know the current Match Engine is bias towards some formations and others are very hard to get working properly. But the football ive seen on display, the one touch passing and movement has been the best i've seen from memory. bloody champ you are.

[Uncle_Sam]

Originally posted by x42bn6:

Good thread, but I also believe that this is the formation that got Luxemburgo fired from Real Madrid (his "Magic Rectangles", which didn't work) and Carlos Alberto Parreira from Brazil (trying to put Ronaldinho, Kaka, Ronaldo and Adriano in the same lineup) - just a thought.

You are correct on both counts. However, he never even had a full season with Madrid, and he certainly isn't the only manager to "fail" there. The situation is not ideal. Luxemburgo also won the Copa America with Brazil, he won the treble with Cruzeiro, and has 5 Brazilian premier league titles overall with 4 different clubs. If you want to condemn Luxemburgo based on one "failure" with a shambles of a club, then be my guest. I would rather look at the man's entire body of work.

As for CAP, I don't consider going out of the quarterfinals of the world cup a failure. Brazil scored 10 and only conceded 2 at the 2006 World Cup. That's pretty impressive. And do not forget Parreira also won a World Cup.

[Uncle_Sam]

PKM of the 4-4-2 Box in action.

Match Stats:

After a transition period at the beginning of the season, we finished a whisker away from the league championship with a club who finished 14th (4 pts clear of relegation) the previous year:

[ubos]

shambles of a club

[bluenose1]

sam,

was the success with wolfsburg based on the just using the attack and defend versions you uploaded?

good work finishing second!

[x42bn6]

Originally posted by Uncle_Sam:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by x42bn6:

Good thread, but I also believe that this is the formation that got Luxemburgo fired from Real Madrid (his "Magic Rectangles", which didn't work) and Carlos Alberto Parreira from Brazil (trying to put Ronaldinho, Kaka, Ronaldo and Adriano in the same lineup) - just a thought.

You are correct on both counts. However, he never even had a full season with Madrid, and he certainly isn't the only manager to "fail" there. The situation is not ideal. Luxemburgo also won the Copa America with Brazil, he won the treble with Cruzeiro, and has 5 Brazilian premier league titles overall with 4 different clubs. If you want to condemn Luxemburgo based on one "failure" with a shambles of a club, then be my guest. I would rather look at the man's entire body of work.

As for CAP, I don't consider going out of the quarterfinals of the world cup a failure. Brazil scored 10 and only conceded 2 at the 2006 World Cup. That's pretty impressive. And do not forget Parreira also won a World Cup. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>I'm not denying they're both good managers, but this formation is not what they were famous for, rather, what they were infamous for.

However, for Brazil, I'd think that quarter-finals isn't good enough - this is, after all, the team that can leave out the likes of Amauri.

[Uncle_Sam]

Originally posted by ubos:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">shambles of a club

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I really don't want to argue what a mess Real was at the time. You had the board spending wads of money on players seemingly because they were expensive, certainly not because they fit any managers style. Even the last couple of years Real's success has been more about Barcelona's failures than Madrid's progress.

But whatever, I'm not going to waste the thread on this. This isn't real life anyway, it's Football Manager.

[Uncle_Sam]

Originally posted by x42bn6:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Uncle_Sam:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by x42bn6:

Good thread, but I also believe that this is the formation that got Luxemburgo fired from Real Madrid (his "Magic Rectangles", which didn't work) and Carlos Alberto Parreira from Brazil (trying to put Ronaldinho, Kaka, Ronaldo and Adriano in the same lineup) - just a thought.

The formation is also responsible for all of their successes, also.

You are correct on both counts. However, he never even had a full season with Madrid, and he certainly isn't the only manager to "fail" there. The situation is not ideal. Luxemburgo also won the Copa America with Brazil, he won the treble with Cruzeiro, and has 5 Brazilian premier league titles overall with 4 different clubs. If you want to condemn Luxemburgo based on one "failure" with a shambles of a club, then be my guest. I would rather look at the man's entire body of work.

As for CAP, I don't consider going out of the quarterfinals of the world cup a failure. Brazil scored 10 and only conceded 2 at the 2006 World Cup. That's pretty impressive. And do not forget Parreira also won a World Cup. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>I'm not denying they're both good managers, but this formation is not what they were famous for, rather, what they were infamous for.

However, for Brazil, I'd think that quarter-finals isn't good enough - this is, after all, the team that can leave out the likes of Amauri. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

[Uncle_Sam]

Originally posted by x42bn6:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Uncle_Sam:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by x42bn6:

Good thread, but I also believe that this is the formation that got Luxemburgo fired from Real Madrid (his "Magic Rectangles", which didn't work) and Carlos Alberto Parreira from Brazil (trying to put Ronaldinho, Kaka, Ronaldo and Adriano in the same lineup) - just a thought.

You are correct on both counts. However, he never even had a full season with Madrid, and he certainly isn't the only manager to "fail" there. The situation is not ideal. Luxemburgo also won the Copa America with Brazil, he won the treble with Cruzeiro, and has 5 Brazilian premier league titles overall with 4 different clubs. If you want to condemn Luxemburgo based on one "failure" with a shambles of a club, then be my guest. I would rather look at the man's entire body of work.

As for CAP, I don't consider going out of the quarterfinals of the world cup a failure. Brazil scored 10 and only conceded 2 at the 2006 World Cup. That's pretty impressive. And do not forget Parreira also won a World Cup. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>I'm not denying they're both good managers, but this formation is not what they were famous for, rather, what they were infamous for.

However, for Brazil, I'd think that quarter-finals isn't good enough - this is, after all, the team that can leave out the likes of Amauri. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

OK, I screwed that last post up.

The formation was also responsible for all of their success. You can point out the bad without also accepting the good.

[suikoden]

I'm playing with 2 upfront in that setup you suggested with an FC and a FCL. However the FC isn't getting the ball as much as I would like. Because his right in the middle his often in space between 2dcs or just in space but he isn't receiving the ball. I think i might try him as a semi-target man with ball to feet as that is also in his ppm. What are your thoughts?

[suikoden]

Also I understand the concept of possession in this tactic and how its set-up but for some reason I always lose out in possessions. I don't know why. I'm playing as Internazionale in Serie A. Could you help me?

Thanks

[Uandwhosearmy]

This was a really interesting read!

I have just started to experiment with a 4-4-2 Box as Arsenal and found this thread to be a great source of information.

I have a question regarding mentalities though: Do you set individual mentalities for all players or do you have a set (such as a defensive unit) of players at the same or very similar mentalities?

In previous games I have mostly tinkered with micro-managed individual settings, but I'm going for a more team based style this time around to get the team playing in a more synchronized style.

[Uncle_Sam]

Originally posted by suikoden:

I'm playing with 2 upfront in that setup you suggested with an FC and a FCL. However the FC isn't getting the ball as much as I would like. Because his right in the middle his often in space between 2dcs or just in space but he isn't receiving the ball. I think i might try him as a semi-target man with ball to feet as that is also in his ppm. What are your thoughts?

I haven't done a whole lot with that setup, admittedly. But what you suggest sounds good in theory. I would suggest experimenting, and watching a couple of games in full highlights to examine how it goes. Try and figure out if there is a reason he is not receiving balls.

Originally posted by suikoden:

Also I understand the concept of possession in this tactic and how its set-up but for some reason I always lose out in possessions. I don't know why. I'm playing as Internazionale in Serie A. Could you help me?

Thanks

Are you winning? If so I wouldn't worry to much about it to be honest. But considering that you are a big club, if you are struggling it could be that the opponents are playing extremely narrow so it might be useful to widen your formation to try and get players in space better. This is of course without having seen any of your matches or anything, so take it with a grain of salt.

Originally posted by Uandwhosearmy:

This was a really interesting read!

I have just started to experiment with a 4-4-2 Box as Arsenal and found this thread to be a great source of information.

I have a question regarding mentalities though: Do you set individual mentalities for all players or do you have a set (such as a defensive unit) of players at the same or very similar mentalities?

In previous games I have mostly tinkered with micro-managed individual settings, but I'm going for a more team based style this time around to get the team playing in a more synchronized style.

I use individual mentality settings, but you could probably get it to work with global or mixed global team settings as you describe. Give it a go and let me know how you get on.

[AcidBurn]

Being as this is Brazilian I am going to give it a go in the lower Brazilian leagues when I have my traditional ADESG game. Will let you know how it works out.

[Delilah_katona]

Trying this tactic set for Liverpool. I will response soon. tks

[suikoden]

I realised that because I am at a big club other teams will sit real deep and knock the ball around and keep pos. So I increased my dline alot. This helped me pressure them and my possession stat shot straight up again. Only problem is that there isn't room for some good passing and players running into space. However its not as bad as I make it sound as the football being played is still very good. I'll try and find a solution and will let you know.

[Giantplaything]

Wow. This thread is like porn for FM fans.

Seriously well done. I always had trouble with attacks down the wings so never even considered playing with no wingers. Will give it a try when I stop being bored with FM.

[Tacca03]

This tactic is good fun. Love the ball movements.

Trying to adopt it to work with an offside trap - something that I love.

But of course, having a backline that pushes up is limiting space for my attacking players.

dilemma, dilemma, dilemma

[Insomniac Ronnie]

Absolutely class tactic for this game! I love how even with the arrows going back for the WBL and WBR and NO WINGERS they still manage to get up and down putting in crosses. Well done!

By the way, with my first game using this tactic I am Celtic and I beat Rangers 4-0

[Colorado]

Just spotted and read through this whole thread after making a post exactly about the 4-2-2-2br minutes ago!

I'm actually starting a career game in Brazil in the Third Division so it'll be interesting to see how it compares to those who are playing as more established teams.

Uncle Same- One thing which suprised me was how sparse your use of the creative freedom is. I'd of assumed this would be quite high for the CM/AMC's but I will follow your advice.

Also, do you think it would work ok to play a flat back 4 but have the full backs set as wingbacks?

The crucial area's for me are the fullbacks and the two CM's.

Great thread btw.