People dont want 3d engine because they have no faith in si

[jakobx]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by SCIAG:

It would get very repetitive or else be buggy. SI won't be able to record every player in the game scoring a goal using every part of their foot from everywhere on the pitch, with every other player on the pitch in every other possible position. Then there's the matter of where the ball comes from, where in the goal it goes, how the keeper does, if any defenders try to block it, if it takes any deflections... in 2D it's easy, in 3D it's hard.

Additonally, people would start complaining that players looked wrong... I remember iun FIFA 04 Steve Sidwell had black hair, which really annoyed me. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Repetitive? Why? How? Do you think they are going to pre-render a few videos and then show them? The behind the scene match engine would stay pretty much the same (if its true that it already calculates the game in 3d) which means the actions would be the same as they are now.

Buggy? So? Should we remove transfers because they are buggy, should we remove finances because they are buggy? Match confidence, team talks, morale, match engine? Show me one piece of FM that is not buggy in one way or another? Should we remove the whole game because of it? As the saying goes. Its better to try and fail than not to try at all. At least if you try you might make, but if you dont its still the same obsolete 2d failure. Dont forget that the competition is not standing still. And judging by the speed CM improves every year compared to FM, SI should be getting worried.

Si wont be able to record every??? What? You cant be serious. Thats not how 3d games work. Its not a prerecorded video for crying out loud.

Football is game that is played in real life and real life is in 3d If the games match engine wants to be even remotely life like it has to internally calculate everything in 3d even though what the player ultimately sees is a very primitive 2d blob. So the calculations should be the same whether you are displaying a 2d or a 3d image.

[jakobx]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by postal postie:

not having played fifa that much (because i dont really like it)

but the on pitch players react to your directions of the control pad.

if they tire they move slower, if they're fit they move faster.

there are far more stats,combinations of stats even, in FM that need to be related to how a player reacts on pitch.

these all need to be calculated. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

And they are already calculated in the current match engine. You now "just" need to display those results using a 3d engine instead of a 2d engine.

[anagain]

If you're arguing about not being able to see tackles perfectly then I don't think even that FIFA footage you linked is going to show that properly. It wasn't that detailed until it linked to the more graphical replays.

Maybe two 'blobs' on the pitch don't show the true nature of the tackle but it does fine for me.

What FM's match engine does do great, as someone else said, is it shows the whole pitch and you can see the runs your players are making. You know where positioning is going wrong and after you have tried to rectify it you can easily see the results.

On that FIFA demo you couldn't see much more than the immediate area surrounding your player on the ball. You couldn't see where your defence was.

You're not winning me over with your reasons for the need of a 3d engine of the ilk of FIFAs.

[Ridleys]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ridleys:

I repeat,

The match engine is 3D already. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Is nobody reading this!

[Synergy6]

Do I want it? No. Would I have faith in SI to get it right if they tried it? Not a chance.

[nelsonmcjones]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ridleys:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ridleys:

I repeat,

The match engine is 3D already. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Is nobody reading this! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

No

[anagain]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Synergy6:

Do I want it? No. Would I have faith in SI to get it right if they tried it? Not a chance. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Why? Just saying that you don't think they have the ability to get a 3d engine right is a kop out.

[DietSpam]

I don't want a 3d engine because it wont look anywhere near as realistic as a real game.

Take a look at PES. I like the game play so much better than Fifa, but have you ever watched an Ai vs Ai game? Is sucks beyond believe.

The truth is, it's going to be years before we see a 3d engine. Maybe never, and I'd be fine with that.

I know it'd be really cool to have a 3d engine that looks like, or close to, real life game play. But that is way, way, way off.

[anagain]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ridleys:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ridleys:

I repeat,

The match engine is 3D already. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Is nobody reading this! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

No because the match representation is 2D.

[DietSpam]

I don't think there ever will be a 3d engine, and that makes me all warm and fuzzy inside. Smug too.

[Stomalomalus]

Firstly, a 3D visual match engine in FM is unnecessary. As ridleys keeps saying, the match engine itself is already 3D - the ball grows larger when it leaves the playing surface, and the same with jumping players.

The main reason for not having a 3D match engine seems to be that people do not want to sacrifice game speed for graphics. Yet it is now generally agreed that the introduction of a 2D match engine was a good thing. Did these people turn the 2D engine off when they had the choice to?

SI are getting closer to the possibility, I would assume, as every new game runs faster than the last despite having more features - albiet many of them minor. A 3D engine could become a possibility in the future, maybe not in FM09 or even FM10(or whatever theyll call it) and when it does, I think Ill welcome it with open arms.

[jakobx]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by anagain:

What FM's match engine does do great, as someone else said, is it shows the whole pitch and you can see the runs your players are making. You know where positioning is going wrong and after you have tried to rectify it you can easily see the results.

On that FIFA demo you couldn't see much more than the immediate area surrounding your player on the ball. You couldn't see where your defence was.

You're not winning me over with your reasons for the need of a 3d engine of the ilk of FIFAs. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You are completely missing the point of 3D. You can position the camera wherever you want. If you want the same top down view as the current 2d provides you just position the camera over the field and voila you have the same point of view as before. What 3d allows you is to view other angles as well. The programmers can easily replace the players with circles and you can have the same lack of any detail as in current 2d version. You wont even notice its a 3d engine. They could do that easily to satisfy those that dont like progress.

[jakobx]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ridleys:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ridleys:

I repeat,

The match engine is 3D already. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Is nobody reading this! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sure we are. Its just that we are discussing the match representation and and not how the match is calculated. If it REALLY is already calculated in 3d internally then this is an even bigger reason to include at LEAST a very basic 3D engine.

[DietSpam]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by jakobx:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ridleys:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ridleys:

I repeat,

The match engine is 3D already. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Is nobody reading this! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sure we are. Its just that we are discussing the match representation and and not how the match is calculated. If it REALLY is already calculated in 3d internally then this is an even bigger reason to include at LEAST a very basic 3D engine. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Why would we want a VERY basic 3d engine. Come on, that's just silly.

[Fieldsy]

The question you have to ask is do you buy FM for its graphical representation or do you buy it for the realism?

TBH a 3D graphical representation would look great but IMO would take away a lot of what makes FM so special - A realistic simulation of football management. At the moment, if you want graphics, music etc then buy Pro Evo or Fifa. If you want realism, get FM or even CM.

[anagain]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by jakobx:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by anagain:

What FM's match engine does do great, as someone else said, is it shows the whole pitch and you can see the runs your players are making. You know where positioning is going wrong and after you have tried to rectify it you can easily see the results.

On that FIFA demo you couldn't see much more than the immediate area surrounding your player on the ball. You couldn't see where your defence was.

You're not winning me over with your reasons for the need of a 3d engine of the ilk of FIFAs. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You are completely missing the point of 3D. You can position the camera wherever you want. If you want the same top down view as the current 2d provides you just position the camera over the field and voila you have the same point of view as before. What 3d allows you is to view other angles as well. The programmers can easily replace the players with circles and you can have the same lack of any detail as in current 2d version. You wont even notice its a 3d engine. They could do that easily to satisfy those that dont like progress. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes but if the engine is as basic as you are suggesting it could be then how much would you really see all this detail? DietSpam made an excellent point a few posts back. He said that even the games that specialise in a 3d graphical representation of a match are not perfect. None come close to real football and only real football would really show you everything you want to see in detail.

Plus who said any of us were against progress? I like progress and I have seen FM progress in very many ways since I started playing the game. That progress does not have to be a move to a 3d graphical representation of a match, especially when the current 2d representation is good enough.

[Ackter]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by anagain:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ridleys:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ridleys:

I repeat,

The match engine is 3D already. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Is nobody reading this! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

No because the match representation is 2D. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Nope, it's 3D, you just happen to be looking at it directly along that 3rd dimension (height). Keep an eye on the shadow of the ball, it's a 3D representation.

What this argument basically comes down to is 1) I want pretty graphics and 2) I'm happy enough with how it is.

Remember this is Football Management, not Football Watch Match of the Day. The match engine is a way of studying the match, representing the tactical game. This is what ProZone looks like: http://www.pzfootball.co.uk/product_PZ3_Animation.htm

Now while ideally FM would also be able to show the match in a smaller window such as this, it would require hiring a new team for it and would be a quite massive financial undertaking that very probably wouldn't be worth it. Remember FIFA have been doing 3D graphics for over a decade, its a lot easier to stick a match engine into a 3D engine than it is to stick a 3D engine into a match engine.

Question really boils down to: Is it a viable option?

Currently, the answer is no. The risks far outweigh the benifits.

[Hershie]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ackter:

Question really boils down to: Is it a viable option?

Currently, the answer is no. The risks far outweigh the benifits. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm sure I said that earlier on and got totally ignored for it.

[Myros]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ackter:

Question really boils down to: Is it a viable option?

Currently, the answer is no. The risks far outweigh the benifits. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

No the question really boils down to - do SI have desire and courage to put the work and time in to do it right. Yes, it would be hard ... most of the things worth doing are.

Probably the answer is still no. Eventualy they will have to come on in to the new century or else be left behind with a stagnant product and someone else will pick up the mantle.

People will eventualy stop buying if all we get is and endless series of minor tweeks to the same engine and charged full price. I can see it now:

"Football Manager 2012 ... now with flashing icons and a new in-depth injury model!! Only $59.99!"

;p

Myros

[Ackter]

"Hello Sega, this is SI. Can we please have a massive massive budget increase? We want to hire a team of 3D graphics artists and spend the next few years teaching them how to integrate their knowledge with the match engine, which will be changing on an almost daily basis. Why? Oh, cause it'll look pretty. Hello?"

[disasterd]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by B. Stinson:

Choosing between a 2D and 3D engine in FM could mean a boat-load of extra work on SI's part. And us dealing with the always sloppy beginning stages of a new system. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

the last sentence of that quote

proves my point

little faith in si

[Kris]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">People will eventualy stop buying if all we get is and endless series of minor tweeks to the same engine and charged full price. I can see it now:

"Football Manager 2012 ... now with flashing icons and a new in-depth injury model!! Only $59.99!" </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It hasn't stopped people buying it since 1992, with just season updates for the first few years.

[disasterd]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by backpackant:

The 2D aspect is just a visual representation of the ACTUAL match engine, and one that already slows down many older computers. A 3D one will just eat your RAM like a hungry dog.

And there are hardly any bugs on FM08's engine as it is, just things people "don't like". Folk complain about closing down, long-shots, bad reffing decisions (just like real life), and a lot of other stuff, but most of it is tactics and can be solved in the appropriate forum. Have played my current save to 2013 so far and have yet to find anything I can't resolve with a bit of thought. Is it 100% realistic? No, and never will be. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

are u honestly trying to tell me MOST of the bugs with the game are down to tactics

think about that for a few seconds...

[anagain]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by disasterd:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by B. Stinson:

Choosing between a 2D and 3D engine in FM could mean a boat-load of extra work on SI's part. And us dealing with the always sloppy beginning stages of a new system. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

the last sentence of that quote

proves my point

little faith in si </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

No it doesn't because it is one person's view. If over 51% of people said the same thing then yes it would prove it.

IT would be a sloppy beginning stage of a new system but not because SI have a lack of ability or because there is a lack of faith in SI. It would be because it would be a big new step for SI. Any development team in the world would experience problems.

Any other non-statistically backed claims you want to make?

[anagain]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Myros:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ackter:

Question really boils down to: Is it a viable option?

Currently, the answer is no. The risks far outweigh the benifits. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

People will eventualy stop buying if all we get is and endless series of minor tweeks to the same engine and charged full price. I can see it now:

"Football Manager 2012 ... now with flashing icons and a new in-depth injury model!! Only $59.99!"

;p

Myros </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'll buy it every year because FM is the best football management sim by a long, long way. I also like playing football management sims and think that SI provide value for money with the updates they provide.

I also understand just how much work a small development team does each year. Obviously you do not.

[Synergy6]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by anagain:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Synergy6:

Do I want it? No. Would I have faith in SI to get it right if they tried it? Not a chance. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Why? Just saying that you don't think they have the ability to get a 3d engine right is a kop out. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Because, when I look at FM08, I see a lot of bugs and inconsistencies; some in code which has been recycled for years. Excuse me if I fear the day SI try their hand at a field (3D) they don't have at least a decade's experience in.

The problem here is some people will always turn it into a quasi-religious debate. SI is God, questioning God is wrong. The end. Personally, I think criticism is healthy, so I can happily buy it every year while still pointing out the flaws I see. Yes, I'm criticizing something you put a lot of time into. Don't take it personally.

[ajani]

I think the next step for FM should be to add feet and a head to the little circles running around. That would allow you to see dribbling, heading, passing in a better way... and it would take alot of further programming to achieve.

[javier_83]

Maybe somethig like this xD

http://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p153/JavierFM/3dfm.jpg

[DeathReborn]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ackter:

"Hello Sega, this is SI. Can we please have a massive massive budget increase? We want to hire a team of 3D graphics artists and spend the next few years teaching them how to integrate their knowledge with the match engine, which will be changing on an almost daily basis. Why? Oh, cause it'll look pretty. Hello?" </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I wouldn't at all be surprised for SEGA to say "yes". SEGA are actualy quite a good company for putting in the resources needed to make a quality product. For the opposite just look at all titles branded EA.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Kris:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">People will eventualy stop buying if all we get is and endless series of minor tweeks to the same engine and charged full price. I can see it now:

"Football Manager 2012 ... now with flashing icons and a new in-depth injury model!! Only $59.99!" </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It hasn't stopped people buying it since 1992, with just season updates for the first few years. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Returning to a season update model might not be a bad idea as it would give you a couple of years to remove bugs existing in the code as it is & to improve it with new additions.

Then you could put out a product truly worthy of the history & heritage of the CM/FM series & propel Football Management into the 21st century well & truly. I do like FM08 but it's not your best work so something somewhere has gone slightly wrong.

[Skunner]

I havn't lost faith in SI, just mu computer.

Football Manager isn't Gran Tourismo or Grand Theft Auto, it really doesn't need top notch graphics.

It's a management/simulation game.

The way I see it, the better graphics there is, the less features we will see. SI would have to start from scratch plus with the ammount of moaning on these forums, I could only see it getting worse if they did use a 3D match engine.

If they did make one, I would suggest having an option to whether you'd like to install the 3D match or the 2D match.

FM appeals to many because it doesn't take a brilliant graphics card to run. People on 256 ram can run it without much problems which really helps in sales.

[Skunner]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by javier_83:

Maybe somethig like this xD

http://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p153/JavierFM/3dfm.jpg </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That actually wouldn't be that bad of an engine to be honest.

[Synergy6]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DeathReborn:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ackter:

"Hello Sega, this is SI. Can we please have a massive massive budget increase? We want to hire a team of 3D graphics artists and spend the next few years teaching them how to integrate their knowledge with the match engine, which will be changing on an almost daily basis. Why? Oh, cause it'll look pretty. Hello?" </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I wouldn't at all be surprised for SEGA to say "yes". SEGA are actualy quite a good company for putting in the resources needed to make a quality product. For the opposite just look at all titles branded EA.

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Crysis, Madden, Battlefield series, Burnout, C&C, Medal of Honor etc etc... you don't like *any* EA game?

[Neji]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> The question you have to ask is do you buy FM for its graphical representation or do you buy it for the realism? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Neither. I buy it becuase I enjoy playing it.

I don't want to see a 3d engine yet BUT it needs to be included in future versions, but only when it can be done to a good standard.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> For the opposite just look at all titles branded EA. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Another EA basher without any real knowledge of them. Is it a new trend that anyone who plays game, needs to hate EA?

I've got a couple of more questions for you...

if this discussion was back in 1996 but instead of 3D, it was 2D. Do you think there would be the same disagreement that it isnt needed?

Fm is likely to go 3D at some point in the future, why cant we just choose which engine we use? Then everyone is happy.

[DeathReborn]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Synergy6:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DeathReborn:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ackter:

"Hello Sega, this is SI. Can we please have a massive massive budget increase? We want to hire a team of 3D graphics artists and spend the next few years teaching them how to integrate their knowledge with the match engine, which will be changing on an almost daily basis. Why? Oh, cause it'll look pretty. Hello?" </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I wouldn't at all be surprised for SEGA to say "yes". SEGA are actualy quite a good company for putting in the resources needed to make a quality product. For the opposite just look at all titles branded EA.

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Crysis, Madden, Battlefield series, Burnout, C&C, Medal of Honor etc etc... you don't like *any* EA game? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I own a few of those, doesn't mean I like their poor Quality Coontrol or Bug Fixing abilities. It took until the 1.2 patch for Crysis to fix a mission scripting bug that caused a fair bit of bother.

Origin, Bullfrog & Westwood Studio's were all making great games & then butchered by EA, hence nearly all the staff opting to not work for EA.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Neji:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> The question you have to ask is do you buy FM for its graphical representation or do you buy it for the realism? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Neither. I buy it becuase I enjoy playing it.

I don't want to see a 3d engine yet BUT it needs to be included in future versions, but only when it can be done to a good standard.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> For the opposite just look at all titles branded EA. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Another EA basher without any real knowledge of them. Is it a new trend that anyone who plays game, needs to hate EA?

I've got a couple of more questions for you...

if this discussion was back in 1996 but instead of 3D, it was 2D. Do you think there would be the same disagreement that it isnt needed?

Fm is likely to go 3D at some point in the future, why cant we just choose which engine we use? Then everyone is happy. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Refer to above for part one. I have enough knowledge to know that EA are not the saint you probably believe them to be. Am I an EA critic? Yes, but I criticise what I feel is wrong, not just for the sake of it. Some of the most enjoyable games i've played have been published by EA (Road Rash 2 for example) but that was before they started pushing developers to meet deadlines & targets.

I'm a firm believer in "when it's done, it's done", something that the guys at SI seem to follow.

EA are involved with Warhammer Online, which I have already got on pre-order but thankfully they will never hold the rights to Warhammer (unless they buy Games Workshop) & Games Workshop can pull the plug at any time if they don't like what is happening.

1996? No. 1994? Yes. My dad refuses to use the 2D pitch & instead uses commentary only. He & I both started playing way back on the Amiga & Atari ST and by the time CM2 came out I was hoping for at least a visible pitch but had to wait for that. I prefer the pitch view but I can also see it's limits & want those removed so the maximum amount of management can be used rather than guesswork that you are sometimes forced to use.

I do agree that we should be able to choose, like we do now between Pitch & No Pitch. Game size does need to be considered as does loading times & streaming for the Console/Handheld versions. I would like to see a full (non isometric) 3D engine created and tested on things like Highlights before a full game implementation.

[sthptngomad76]

IMHO The Fm series (and the CM one that preceded it) has always relied upon an element of imagination on the player's part for its success, especially in the days of the text-based only match engine. You had to imagine what was going on on the pitch, and that i feel was part of the hook. The FM series even with the 2D engine (and its flaws) still has something like that- you know what's happening in a basic sense but you have to imagine a lot of the details (what the goal/tackle would of looked like 'in real life' etc). This is what i feel separates it from other football management sims (such as EA's efforts)- its ability to completely immerse the gamer by giving most of the details, but still allowing some room for imagination.

Its almost like a novel compared to a movie- FM creates a completely immerse world that the reader/gamer still contributes to, whereas stuff like FIFA Manager provides all the footage and glossy movie effects to the gamer but mighn't have the same effect enjoyment wise. Less is more, effectively.

I know it sounds wishy-washy but I reckon no 3D engine can ever generate a game better than what your own mind (coupled with the 2D blobs or just the text if you so choose) can come up with. This is what makes FM so captivating. (God that sounded like a high school English essay...)

[Ackter]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DeathReborn:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ackter:

"Hello Sega, this is SI. Can we please have a massive massive budget increase? We want to hire a team of 3D graphics artists and spend the next few years teaching them how to integrate their knowledge with the match engine, which will be changing on an almost daily basis. Why? Oh, cause it'll look pretty. Hello?" </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I wouldn't at all be surprised for SEGA to say "yes". SEGA are actualy quite a good company for putting in the resources needed to make a quality product. For the opposite just look at all titles branded EA.

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I just don't think that it would be financially viable. How many sales will it really add to the series when the initial cost outlay will be massive?

[jakobx]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ackter:

I just don't think that it would be financially viable. How many sales will it really add to the series when the initial cost outlay will be massive? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Its not really a question of how many sales will will it add, but how many sales will it keep. I dont know how long you think people will keep buying the same game year after year while the competition actually improves their products every year. How long do you think FM is gonna keep its advantage? Its not THAT much more realistic than say CM. And most of that realism is just an illusion anyway. And when people start to abandon ship you will start losing researchers to competing companies. And THAT is really gonna hurt since the free work of those researchers is the main incentive for us to actually buy a new version.

[anagain]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by jakobx:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ackter:

I just don't think that it would be financially viable. How many sales will it really add to the series when the initial cost outlay will be massive? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Its not really a question of how many sales will will it add, but how many sales will it keep. I dont know how long you think people will keep buying the same game year after year while the competition actually improves their products every year. How long do you think FM is gonna keep its advantage? Its not THAT much more realistic than say CM. And most of that realism is just an illusion anyway. And when people start to abandon ship you will start losing researchers to competing companies. And THAT is really gonna hurt since the free work of those researchers is the main incentive for us to actually buy a new version. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

A lot of people have been buying the CM/FM name for a lot of years already and they continue to buy the FM name every year now. I'm one of them and I am sure a lot of the people that have posted in this thread are another of those people.

The so-called bugs and the so-called lack of positive features are not evident in mine and others' thoughts, only in a small bunch of doubters and whiners.

People may leave the game but it won't be because they don't want to, but because they've grown up and they now have families to look after. Older, more mature fans accept that change doesn't always have to be at a pace akin to a Cheetah on the Serengeti. Great changes happen slowly. I'm more than happy with the progress of FM. Viva SI!!

And I'll say it again, because it obviously isn't sinking in. I don't see the need of a fully glorified 3D engine for FM. The statistical and realism facets of the game captivates me and I accept their may be small niggles when SI put time and effort into improve those facets. It's part and parcel of changing a game as big as FM. If I wanted a game that looked fantastic I would play FIFA, but I'm sure I'd find myself bored of the lack of depth.

[Spawnisen]

do not want 3d. Then again.. i dont care so much to type why it wouldnt work(my oppinion)or why we wouldnt need it (my oppinion). My opinion wont matter for SI if they will put 3d or not. I just hope not.

[Nomis07]

I don't want a 3d match engine and the reasons are, as follows.

The current 2D engine provides a realistic match simulation, there are hundreds, if not thousands, of possibilities to occur in the match and at the moment we rarely see a goal that is a carbon copy of one we have already seen.

Now the reason we have such a variety of styles of play etc is that it doesn't take much graphically to make it happen in 2D.

In comes 3D and for SI to incorporate as much scope for movement of ball and player as is now, would create a huge huge huge game, probably the likes of which has never been seen.

Put simply imagine the coding that goes into every single possibility of ball/player movement in a 10 yard square area of the pitch. Now to recreate that in 2D is hard enough but to recreate it in 3D would be nearly impossible.

IMO because of the limitations in game size etc a 3D match engine would ruin the real match feel of watching a game in FM.

[lonestar007]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Nomis07:

I don't want a 3d match engine and the reasons are, as follows.

The current 2D engine provides a realistic match simulation, there are hundreds, if not thousands, of possibilities to occur in the match and at the moment we rarely see a goal that is a carbon copy of one we have already seen.

Now the reason we have such a variety of styles of play etc is that it doesn't take much graphically to make it happen in 2D.

In comes 3D and for SI to incorporate as much scope for movement of ball and player as is now, would create a huge huge huge game, probably the likes of which has never been seen.

Put simply imagine the coding that goes into every single possibility of ball/player movement in a 10 yard square area of the pitch. Now to recreate that in 2D is hard enough but to recreate it in 3D would be nearly impossible.

IMO because of the limitations in game size etc a 3D match engine would ruin the real match feel of watching a game in FM. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You don't know what you are talking about. It is already a 3D match engine, been stated several times.

[Nomis07]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by lonestar007:

You don't know what you are talking about. It is already a 3D match engine, been stated several times. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Take it in the context it was meant then, rather than be so ignorant. Just to clarify my post was re: the actual vision of 3D highlights (which would require a considerable improvement in graphics and so game size) rather than a 3D match engine.

I don't appreciate your rather infantile and cretinous "you don't know what you're talking about" comment. It's the first post I have made in this thread, I was offering my opinion and whilst you may disagree the way in which you do it is outside the forum rules. Rather than offer any opinion of your own you resorted to a condescending attitude, which says more about you than my initial mistake.

[turn it upto 11]

like some people said you may only be able to see the surrounding area, if it was maybe on the same scale as the 2d in terms of distance from pitch and just make them look like players rather than blobs that would be fine, as for putting loads of effort into making it look as visualy appealing as fifa or pro evo, no need.

[lonestar007]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Nomis07:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by lonestar007:

You don't know what you are talking about. It is already a 3D match engine, been stated several times. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Take it in the context it was meant then, rather than be so ignorant. Just to clarify my post was re: the actual vision of 3D highlights (which would require a considerable improvement in graphics and so game size) rather than a 3D match engine.

I don't appreciate your rather infantile and cretinous "you don't know what you're talking about" comment. It's the first post I have made in this thread, I was offering my opinion and whilst you may disagree the way in which you do it is outside the forum rules. Rather than offer any opinion of your own you resorted to a condescending attitude, which says more about you than my initial mistake. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Learn to read the first post on a page. Like stated, updating to a basic 3D isometric view would do nothing to the gameplay or the match engine. Therefore, all your arguments are basically worthless.

[Nomis07]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by lonestar007:

Learn to read the first post on a page. Like stated, updating to a basic 3D isometric view would do nothing to the gameplay or the match engine. Therefore, all your arguments are basically worthless. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You really are a delight

My post was pertaining to the amount of highlights available rather than it having an adverse effect on gameplay or match engine. My point was that to incorporate it would require a huge amount of game space and so people may struggle to run it on their computer, hence it would have to be toned down.

Yes, it is entirely possible but in my opinion to maintain the level of detail and inciorporate highlights of the nature they currently are would be impossible.

Improving highlights to make them 3D in the common sense form of 3D rather than nit picking, would take a lot kore memory etc than the current format.

I'm sorry but your inter personal skills really are pathetic and the tone is completely unecessary, but what more can qwe expect from someone who says "your arguments are worthless", I wasn't aware I was arguing I was only offering opinion. Democracy eh

[DeathReborn]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Nomis07:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by lonestar007:

You don't know what you are talking about. It is already a 3D match engine, been stated several times. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Take it in the context it was meant then, rather than be so ignorant. Just to clarify my post was re: the actual vision of 3D highlights (which would require a considerable improvement in graphics and so game size) rather than a 3D match engine.

I don't appreciate your rather infantile and cretinous "you don't know what you're talking about" comment. It's the first post I have made in this thread, I was offering my opinion and whilst you may disagree the way in which you do it is outside the forum rules. Rather than offer any opinion of your own you resorted to a condescending attitude, which says more about you than my initial mistake. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Depending on the engine created/licensed it wouldn't be anywhere near the size of say, Turok (18GB) but more like 500MB-2GB. I merely mention size as in reference to CD/DVD and not to Hard Disk space.

The whole reason why I suggested highlights is it would put me on a level playing field with real life managers in seeing a TV Replay of incidents rather than a "subbuteo" 2D/3D (Isometric) representation of it.

If they can't manage that, then the least they could do is let us turn off the media/delegate media to the assman.

[anagain]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DeathReborn:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Nomis07:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by lonestar007:

You don't know what you are talking about. It is already a 3D match engine, been stated several times. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Take it in the context it was meant then, rather than be so ignorant. Just to clarify my post was re: the actual vision of 3D highlights (which would require a considerable improvement in graphics and so game size) rather than a 3D match engine.

I don't appreciate your rather infantile and cretinous "you don't know what you're talking about" comment. It's the first post I have made in this thread, I was offering my opinion and whilst you may disagree the way in which you do it is outside the forum rules. Rather than offer any opinion of your own you resorted to a condescending attitude, which says more about you than my initial mistake. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

If they can't manage that, then the least they could do is let us turn off the media/delegate media to the assman. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not even a real world manager sees the real extent of a tackle or an offside. They see what they can see from the touchline. Often when they make comments they do so straight after the match before they have had a chance to look at a replay. That is why you hear so many managers say that they will have to go and look at a replay.

You have to remember that.

There is no reason why there can't be a delegate media to the assman option. I'll agree to that. I mean Carlos Queroz handles ManUres media interviews (probably 'cause no one can understand Fergie with that gum in his gob or 'cause the interviewers were getting wet from the splutter).

[Nomis07]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DeathReborn:

Depending on the engine created/licensed it wouldn't be anywhere near the size of say, Turok (18GB) but more like 500MB-2GB. I merely mention size as in reference to CD/DVD and not to Hard Disk space.

The whole reason why I suggested highlights is it would put me on a level playing field with real life managers in seeing a TV Replay of incidents rather than a "subbuteo" 2D/3D (Isometric) representation of it.

If they can't manage that, then the least they could do is let us turn off the media/delegate media to the assman. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't know much about computers tbh but surely recreating the amount of scenarios currently in the 2D set up would take a hell of a lot. If we take 10 square yards, replicating all the positions a ball can land/roll/bounce in 2D would be ok but to do that 3D would be an insane amount of work.

Even if it was only double the size of the current 2D format, it could halve peoples gaming experience. It's well documented on these forums that players have had to cut careers short because it gets to a point when the game is just too slow to play and that's with 2D, if 3D was implemented then far more people would suffer from this.

BTW thanks for the sensible reply/discussion, it certainly makes a change from some peoples bullying nature on these forums.

[Nomis07]

Media interaction could be easily fixed with working commentary that tells us exactly what is happening rather than leaving us to guess, we don't need 3D just to sort this out. If the commentary said it was defiantely off side or not then we could avoid any unecessary fines etc.

[chopper99]

I'm not against change, or particularly against the 3D match engine. However, I just really can't see what it would add to the game. FM has never been about fancy graphics, and I hope it never will be.

That said though, I also feel that there is no harm in improving the look and feel of FM every year, this can be done by bringing in newer graphics and things such as face-gen. And if a 3D engine was introduced and it ran smoothly, was not repetative and didn't slow the players PC right down* then great. However, I still don't think It would improve the game. I really like the '2D' view that we have now and think it's perfect for this type of game, I genuinely can't see a 3D match engine being better than what we have now.

So from what I can see it boils down to two things:

1 - Is a 3D match engine viable? And by this I mean if incorperated would it be top notch, or would it suffer from the many possible issues that have been outlined already in this thread.

2 - If it was viable would it actually improve the game? For me it wouldn't, if I want that kind of graphical interface I'll play Pro Evo or something similar. When I play FM I want to play something that isn't like your average console football game, and for me the '2D' representation we have now gets across everything you need to know for FM.

*People keep saying that having a 3D engine would not slow the game down but I disagree. I, and I suspect other people are similar, don't play any other game than FM on my PC. Therefore when I bought my new PC I sacrificed a decent graphics card so I could have more processing power and therefore have FM running like a dream. However, when my missus tried to play The Sims 2 on my PC it would barely run due to my poor graphics card. So for those saying slowdown wouldn't be an issue then I'm telling you it would be for me.