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Creating Effective Tactics - One possible approach


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Any new discoveries on d-line, Rash? from TT&F it seems it is pretty vital in terms of opening up space, but as I can't play FM I can't look see. What are your observations on high d-line v low d-line related to type of defensive possession?

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In almost every game I've played I have had to make adjustments to the Dline, which does suggest its relevance.

A high DL in conjuction with high closing down can allow you to camp in an opponents half and it can also make it hard to score. So if someone wants to play a high DLine then he'd have to have good centreforwards who can take it in the air.

Even tho you can't tell the difference between high Dline and low Dline by the positions of the players, I think it does bear out in the way the game plays out.

To play safe I now play with a normal dline in most games.

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Ive made a 343 that has a low cd and high closing down which i'm using in a challenge. Thus far its made a few goals but the shot count is not fantastic 2 goals from 2 shots in the first half????????

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Originally posted by rashidi1:

If you're trying to get around the problem of defending freekicks or corners you could try setting it to default. I've done that for freekicks and it seems to work better now

do you mean setting all 10 players to default or only certain ones?

another piece of info on the defensive set pieces thing, I decided to put my DCs and GK on high set piece training (they were on none before), and dont know if its a coincidence but havent conceded a defensive set piece since (got the woodwork smashed once though). so maybe training is not just attributes related this time around.

also got a few questions would appreciate if someone whos gotten a good understanding of the match engine could answer them

1. what do you think I should do when Im being put under a lot of pressure? Im not quite sure how to respond to this situation. Im playing as Charlton, and sometimes in away games against the likes of Fulham, Boro, etc they start pretty attacking and create a fair few chances in the early stages of the game itself. Ive tried responding but upping the DL and upping closing down for the midfield so that they start closing down early and in higher areas, but that doesnt seem to have worked so far.

Or should I just not be starting the game playing a deepish DL? am I inviting them to attack me by doing that? Im just afraid that if I start with a higher DL and more attacking mindset then itll be an open game and my slow defenders will suffer.

2. Another problem Im having is that I now seem to be conceding a fair few goals when a tricky winger jinks past my fullback and puts the cross in. Have tried setting easy tackling for him in opposition instructions but my fullbacks still seem to commit. Any way to get a midfielder to double up on him perhaps?

3. And the last one, 4 games in a row I was leading by a goal only to concede in the last few mins when the AI turns to the 424. and each time it was a long ball played over the top to the FL/FR. I tried putting my fullbacks on a very defensive mentality, no closing down at all, even gave them barrows to a sort of sweeper/fullback position but they still seem to be positioned slightly ahead of the DCs. how do people usually counter the 424? I know how to exploit it to score goals after Ive won the ball, but its winning the ball in the first place thats the problem

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Originally posted by Karan:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by rashidi1:

If you're trying to get around the problem of defending freekicks or corners you could try setting it to default. I've done that for freekicks and it seems to work better now

do you mean setting all 10 players to default or only certain ones?

another piece of info on the defensive set pieces thing, I decided to put my DCs and GK on high set piece training (they were on none before), and dont know if its a coincidence but havent conceded a defensive set piece since (got the woodwork smashed once though). so maybe training is not just attributes related this time around.

also got a few questions would appreciate if someone whos gotten a good understanding of the match engine could answer them

1. what do you think I should do when Im being put under a lot of pressure? Im not quite sure how to respond to this situation. Im playing as Charlton, and sometimes in away games against the likes of Fulham, Boro, etc they start pretty attacking and create a fair few chances in the early stages of the game itself. Ive tried responding but upping the DL and upping closing down for the midfield so that they start closing down early and in higher areas, but that doesnt seem to have worked so far.

Or should I just not be starting the game playing a deepish DL? am I inviting them to attack me by doing that? Im just afraid that if I start with a higher DL and more attacking mindset then itll be an open game and my slow defenders will suffer.

2. Another problem Im having is that I now seem to be conceding a fair few goals when a tricky winger jinks past my fullback and puts the cross in. Have tried setting easy tackling for him in opposition instructions but my fullbacks still seem to commit. Any way to get a midfielder to double up on him perhaps?

3. And the last one, 4 games in a row I was leading by a goal only to concede in the last few mins when the AI turns to the 424. and each time it was a long ball played over the top to the FL/FR. I tried putting my fullbacks on a very defensive mentality, no closing down at all, even gave them barrows to a sort of sweeper/fullback position but they still seem to be positioned slightly ahead of the DCs. how do people usually counter the 424? I know how to exploit it to score goals after Ive won the ball, but its winning the ball in the first place thats the problem </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I've been setting all on defensive...

I've upped the DL to force more pressure, haven't upped my CD though. Seems to work ok for me, but I really can't tell the difference, I'm playing a conference side right now.

2. Try having the MR and Fullbacks on 15 for closing down, perhaps even on normal tackling.

3. I think having the fullbacks on 1 closing down is not a good idea. They need to be much higher than the 2 DCs. Sometimes setting the DLs on tight marking also helps

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Originally posted by rashidi1:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Karan:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by rashidi1:

If you're trying to get around the problem of defending freekicks or corners you could try setting it to default. I've done that for freekicks and it seems to work better now

do you mean setting all 10 players to default or only certain ones?

another piece of info on the defensive set pieces thing, I decided to put my DCs and GK on high set piece training (they were on none before), and dont know if its a coincidence but havent conceded a defensive set piece since (got the woodwork smashed once though). so maybe training is not just attributes related this time around.

also got a few questions would appreciate if someone whos gotten a good understanding of the match engine could answer them

1. what do you think I should do when Im being put under a lot of pressure? Im not quite sure how to respond to this situation. Im playing as Charlton, and sometimes in away games against the likes of Fulham, Boro, etc they start pretty attacking and create a fair few chances in the early stages of the game itself. Ive tried responding but upping the DL and upping closing down for the midfield so that they start closing down early and in higher areas, but that doesnt seem to have worked so far.

Or should I just not be starting the game playing a deepish DL? am I inviting them to attack me by doing that? Im just afraid that if I start with a higher DL and more attacking mindset then itll be an open game and my slow defenders will suffer.

2. Another problem Im having is that I now seem to be conceding a fair few goals when a tricky winger jinks past my fullback and puts the cross in. Have tried setting easy tackling for him in opposition instructions but my fullbacks still seem to commit. Any way to get a midfielder to double up on him perhaps?

3. And the last one, 4 games in a row I was leading by a goal only to concede in the last few mins when the AI turns to the 424. and each time it was a long ball played over the top to the FL/FR. I tried putting my fullbacks on a very defensive mentality, no closing down at all, even gave them barrows to a sort of sweeper/fullback position but they still seem to be positioned slightly ahead of the DCs. how do people usually counter the 424? I know how to exploit it to score goals after Ive won the ball, but its winning the ball in the first place thats the problem </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I've been setting all on defensive...

I've upped the DL to force more pressure, haven't upped my CD though. Seems to work ok for me, but I really can't tell the difference, I'm playing a conference side right now.

2. Try having the MR and Fullbacks on 15 for closing down, perhaps even on normal tackling.

3. I think having the fullbacks on 1 closing down is not a good idea. They need to be much higher than the 2 DCs. Sometimes setting the DLs on tight marking also helps </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks

will try your suggestions out

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Great post...I have built a succesfull 4-4-2 for my arsenal team by reading this thread.

I just wanted to ask you how you would set up a 4-1-2-2-1 formation. I have searched everywhere but I have only found how to do a 4-4-2, 4-1-3-2, 3-4-3. I would appreciate if you could share some basic information about a 4-1-2-2-1...four defenders, one DM, two MC, AML/R, FC

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Now that the scotch has worn off...I'll add on more since starting off a new thread won't make a point...I will probably start within this thread a reconstruction of Scramjet. But before I do I need to set the framework of the tactic up, since its a fairly complicated tactic to build in the first place.

Defending using 3 at the back

Why use a back 3, because if you are going to keep your defenders back all the time, wouldn't you be better off defending with 3 Defenders instead of 2 DCs. Thats really the point of setting up a back 3.

Historically back 3 formations have been the mainstay of a 532 formation. This allows the formation to employ wingbacks as an effective attacking outlet. The 343 formation also uses the trio but are strengthened with 2 flanking mids who are usually assigned defensive duties, including holding on to the ball. They rarely if ever go up and when they do its usually to support the attack.

In FM 2007, replicating the tactic takes a fair bit of work, but if you understand how its supposed to work, it gets easier...

The first thing you want to do is to decide what kind of player is suited for this...the DCs need to have pace, positioning, tackling, jumping and marking. These are must haves. They should also be equipped with anticipation and concentration.

Ideally you would want the trio to have good teamwork to, but this is not critical. This is where the fun really starts. If you have the moolah, make sure they can pass the ball well too. Then setting them up with TTB really sets your tactic off as they launch deep searching attacks.

Having chosen the players we need to give them instructions, your trio is not going anywhere so give them low mentalities between 1-5 and then remove all attacking iinstructions. However if they possess good passing, then include TTB.

If you are a poor side who are not endowed with great passing, then you can still use a back 3 but set their passing to direct long, if you're worried. Personally I like to keep possession, and I'm fairly confident in my players abilities to get a goal back, so I usually leave it on short.

When playing with a back 3, they need to set up in such a way that they don't get pulled in the same direction. Personally I prefer having 2 DCs and 1SW. Sweepers are easier to use now then they were in 03/04. So getting a player here will be no issue. The DCs need to have closing down of around 13 so that they close down the ball whenever its in their half.

The Sweeper on the other hand is the last man, he is on 4 closing down. This is very important, if he is set any higher he will drift.

Try setting the same mentality for all 3 players.

Having done the set up for the defense its now time to look at the midfield, and the crucial area of concern now is the flanks. The way the DCs are set up they will go to close down all humped balls but now you want to set things up so that they don't rush in and close down midfielders too soon. To do this you need to look at the midfielders...and that will come in my next installment.

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Originally posted by rashidi1:

Now that the scotch has worn off...I'll add on more since starting off a new thread won't make a point...I will probably start within this thread a reconstruction of Scramjet. But before I do I need to set the framework of the tactic up, since its a fairly complicated tactic to build in the first place.

Defending using 3 at the back

Why use a back 3, because if you are going to keep your defenders back all the time, wouldn't you be better off defending with 3 Defenders instead of 2 DCs. Thats really the point of setting up a back 3.

Historically back 3 formations have been the mainstay of a 532 formation. This allows the formation to employ wingbacks as an effective attacking outlet. The 343 formation also uses the trio but are strengthened with 2 flanking mids who are usually assigned defensive duties, including holding on to the ball. They rarely if ever go up and when they do its usually to support the attack.

In FM 2007, replicating the tactic takes a fair bit of work, but if you understand how its supposed to work, it gets easier...

The first thing you want to do is to decide what kind of player is suited for this...the DCs need to have pace, positioning, tackling, jumping and marking. These are must haves. They should also be equipped with anticipation and concentration.

Ideally you would want the trio to have good teamwork to, but this is not critical. This is where the fun really starts. If you have the moolah, make sure they can pass the ball well too. Then setting them up with TTB really sets your tactic off as they launch deep searching attacks.

Having chosen the players we need to give them instructions, your trio is not going anywhere so give them low mentalities between 1-5 and then remove all attacking iinstructions. However if they possess good passing, then include TTB.

If you are a poor side who are not endowed with great passing, then you can still use a back 3 but set their passing to direct long, if you're worried. Personally I like to keep possession, and I'm fairly confident in my players abilities to get a goal back, so I usually leave it on short.

When playing with a back 3, they need to set up in such a way that they don't get pulled in the same direction. Personally I prefer having 2 DCs and 1SW. Sweepers are easier to use now then they were in 03/04. So getting a player here will be no issue. The DCs need to have closing down of around 13 so that they close down the ball whenever its in their half.

The Sweeper on the other hand is the last man, he is on 4 closing down. This is very important, if he is set any higher he will drift.

Try setting the same mentality for all 3 players.

Having done the set up for the defense its now time to look at the midfield, and the crucial area of concern now is the flanks. The way the DCs are set up they will go to close down all humped balls but now you want to set things up so that they don't rush in and close down midfielders too soon. To do this you need to look at the midfielders...and that will come in my next installment.

Great post rash icon14.gif

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Originally posted by rashidi1:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Karan:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by rashidi1:

If you're trying to get around the problem of defending freekicks or corners you could try setting it to default. I've done that for freekicks and it seems to work better now

do you mean setting all 10 players to default or only certain ones?

another piece of info on the defensive set pieces thing, I decided to put my DCs and GK on high set piece training (they were on none before), and dont know if its a coincidence but havent conceded a defensive set piece since (got the woodwork smashed once though). so maybe training is not just attributes related this time around.

also got a few questions would appreciate if someone whos gotten a good understanding of the match engine could answer them

1. what do you think I should do when Im being put under a lot of pressure? Im not quite sure how to respond to this situation. Im playing as Charlton, and sometimes in away games against the likes of Fulham, Boro, etc they start pretty attacking and create a fair few chances in the early stages of the game itself. Ive tried responding but upping the DL and upping closing down for the midfield so that they start closing down early and in higher areas, but that doesnt seem to have worked so far.

Or should I just not be starting the game playing a deepish DL? am I inviting them to attack me by doing that? Im just afraid that if I start with a higher DL and more attacking mindset then itll be an open game and my slow defenders will suffer.

2. Another problem Im having is that I now seem to be conceding a fair few goals when a tricky winger jinks past my fullback and puts the cross in. Have tried setting easy tackling for him in opposition instructions but my fullbacks still seem to commit. Any way to get a midfielder to double up on him perhaps?

3. And the last one, 4 games in a row I was leading by a goal only to concede in the last few mins when the AI turns to the 424. and each time it was a long ball played over the top to the FL/FR. I tried putting my fullbacks on a very defensive mentality, no closing down at all, even gave them barrows to a sort of sweeper/fullback position but they still seem to be positioned slightly ahead of the DCs. how do people usually counter the 424? I know how to exploit it to score goals after Ive won the ball, but its winning the ball in the first place thats the problem </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I've been setting all on defensive...

I've upped the DL to force more pressure, haven't upped my CD though. Seems to work ok for me, but I really can't tell the difference, I'm playing a conference side right now.

2. Try having the MR and Fullbacks on 15 for closing down, perhaps even on normal tackling.

3. I think having the fullbacks on 1 closing down is not a good idea. They need to be much higher than the 2 DCs. Sometimes setting the DLs on tight marking also helps </div></BLOCKQUOTE>I've been having success by giving my fullbacks high closing down in a zonal area - I find that it lessons the number of quality crosses coming in from AI wingers. And if they do manage to get a cross in some of those times it hits my fullbacks and the threat is thereby neutralized.

The other thing I am having sucess with is extremely high closing down for my strikers and attackin MC. This puts the pressure on AI and mistakes ensue.

As for the Defensive line I am as confounded as anybody when playing away. Not sure whether to push up or sit back and counter. Sometimes one works and other doesn't... depends entirely on the mentality and tactic of AI in that game I guess...

Great work though Rashidi - insights from you are always useful.

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Excellent post! icon14.gif

I'm trying the:

<--------FL FC <---FR

in a 4-3-3 system at the moment with Young Boys in Switserland. The play looks really good allthough i've only played 2 matches. 1 draw and 1 win and i don't really dominate games, yet (with a little tweaking maybe), but there are some lines in the field that i really like and have potential icon_smile.gif

Just learned the trick is using Often Crosses more then i used to do ... very usefull post icon_biggrin.gif

Will let u know how it goes icon_smile.gif

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xstream, the trident is my favourite way of getting goals now. It begins very dangerous if employed with the right people. Remember the days when Henry used to start running deep from the left for Arsenal? Its the same principle..If you use the one where the arrow is pointing left..that's what the FL will do.

So the FL needs to have pace, dribbling and crossing...

The FC needs to be strong, great jumping and high teamwork. Finishing and composure makes him a literal superman.

The FR needs pace, otb, and finishing..Crossing is good to have, but he needs a high workrate...This guy will always drop back and act as a midfielder. He needs decisions as well, since he plays such a varied role.

Usually in the trident, u will see the two on the left (assuming you're using the leftward one) be the primary attacking force. If you mirror it, then it beomes harder to defend from. I remember a lot of online players hated this when I first created it in 03/04. I actually got banned from playing, people accused me of cheating. I was livid as this was just good tactical creation. Good luck. I'm hoping that it still works very well, Im pretty certain it still can, because I'm getting some really average players scoring well.

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Just thought I'd check before, well i have scoured through most of the top Europeans league, with no avail. Therefore have decided to start at the top with Brazil, then once i have the tactic how i like it. I will transfer to a club team.

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Brilliant stuff to read, rashidi! icon14.gif Although I pretty much never stray from the backline of four this still gave me lots of stuff to think about and I love to read about approaches to the game that differ from my own views! Especially the employment of the defensive unit (sweeper + 2x stoppers + DM) really made sense to me and I'm pretty much sure I'll give that system a go next time I need to emphasize the midfield or attack in expense of defense line.

Once more, great thread! KUTGW! icon_biggrin.gificon14.gif

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I noticed this as well, I don't think its any tactic, it could be the first touch.

There is one more oddity i know will be fixed in the upcoming patch and that's the 90 degree first touch before someone proceeds to dribble.

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Originally posted by rashidi1:

I noticed this as well, I don't think its any tactic, it could be the first touch.

There is one more oddity i know will be fixed in the upcoming patch and that's the 90 degree first touch before someone proceeds to dribble.

Will the odd first touch glitch be fixed? Im frustrated at seeing them push it so far out that the defenders get the ball easily.

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I only know that the 90deg thing is being looked at, whether or not this translates directly into what you're saying, i'm not certain cos my players are all bad..so i kinda expect to see this happen.. i don't see that happening all the time to my players though

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I also happen to see alot of tackles being made on my strikers. Defenders are having to tackle my strikers to break down the attack and they often get away with a foul or nothing at all. Most of the time they wont even get a yellow card. Maybe the challenge was fair but Im seeing alot of this happening.

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Lately I've been testing out 2 tactics, one for home and one for away matches. I swear I hate having 2 tactics but I felt I wanted to try both of them in a disciplined attempt at playing 2 styles of football.

However there is one caveat, they both have to be attacking in orienation, one more than the other. So the home tactic is modelled after a 442, but with long farrows and short barrows for the fullbacks. The 424 uses the same defensive settings as the 442 but has an AML and AMR.

Broadly speaking, both tactics are meant to use the same players , but in different roles. The DL for both tactics is the same since they are both not using a DMC, I do tend to adjust the DLine to increase pressure. Personally I think of Dline as a tool to involve more players in a game but it has associated risks...too much and it makes everyone go for the same ball

My global settings:

Mentality: Attacking First Notch

DL: 10

Attacking down both flanks

Passing: 6

Tempo: 10

Width: First notch of wide

Creative Freedom: 1...though there are variations for players

Tackling :Normal (but not all)

Both tactics seem to do their job, the away tactic is outperforming the home tactic which is surprising me somewhat. But more on that when i finish the season, I may post both tactics up. I believe that you can keep things simple and adopt a very simple philosophy to playing. It should work.

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Originally posted by rashidi1:

Lately I've been testing out 2 tactics, one for home and one for away matches. I swear I hate having 2 tactics but I felt I wanted to try both of them in a disciplined attempt at playing 2 styles of football.

However there is one caveat, they both have to be attacking in orienation, one more than the other. So the home tactic is modelled after a 442, but with long farrows and short barrows for the fullbacks. The 424 uses the same defensive settings as the 442 but has an AML and AMR.

Broadly speaking, both tactics are meant to use the same players , but in different roles. The DL for both tactics is the same since they are both not using a DMC, I do tend to adjust the DLine to increase pressure. Personally I think of Dline as a tool to involve more players in a game but it has associated risks...too much and it makes everyone go for the same ball

My global settings:

Mentality: Attacking First Notch

DL: 10

Attacking down both flanks

Passing: 6

Tempo: 10

Width: First notch of wide

Creative Freedom: 1...though there are variations for players

Tackling :Normal (but not all)

Both tactics seem to do their job, the away tactic is outperforming the home tactic which is surprising me somewhat. But more on that when i finish the season, I may post both tactics up. I believe that you can keep things simple and adopt a very simple philosophy to playing. It should work.

Did you set player instructioons? Or did you just went global ?

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Player instructions were set..I'll go into them once i've finished this season with my overachieving Merthyr Tydfil a side I've managed to get successfully promoted to the championship from conference south. So far my away tactic seems to be outperforming my home version. It seems to be the case with all my tactics lately

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Rashidi, I've read all your tacticmaking threads, and those of others, and tried following them, but tbh I can't make a single tactic that doesnt suck monkey buuutt. Defence leaks like theres no tomorrow, and no power offensively.

Fraid some casual gamers will leave this game because of it.

I also try downing (supposedly) good tactics off here, and seeing how theyre built, but nothing. And these don't even work for me.

Yes, a rant, I know, but I'm about to give up.

Realism is all well and good, but this isn't even that, just a hassle.

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recon...what's your tactic right now? and what are the settings? I have to admit I'm not exactly pulverising everyone, I get the odd 4-0's but not like before, but i do manage to keep a heck of a lot of clean sheets.

One thing that jumped up and shed some light was this...I had a team that was conceding goals one season before, one season later and with the inclusion of just 2 new forwards and one new MC, suddenly they were keeping clean sheets, like they were on some kind of quest. I once had 14 clean sheets in 16 matches. I managed to score in almost everyone of them but 1. And then injury to both my defenders and suddenly escaping with a draw was my no 1 goal.

The only thing i could glean from this was either

a. My team gelled so fast that the tactic was actually playing itself out

b. The players I brought in had higher ambition and had a positve effect on my squad.

I think they both played a role. If your defense leaks and you're still having trouble post your tactic and we'll have a look someone will probably be able to provide some insight.

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Things can suddenly take a turn for the worse in the game whenever theirs a sudden injection of new players. Could this be one of the reasons. You've been playing the game long enough so I will assume you've been paying attention to training as well

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I would query your statement about attackers and closing down. You say that they will close down in "their" half, that is your opponents half. However, the manual states. Closing down. Own Half. Your players will only close down their opponents in your half.

Do you mean that your closing down applies only to the global definition or the in game and manual definition?

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@oescus

I don't isolate closing down, i relate it to zonal marking. So when I look at the manual, which states that if a player closes down - own half, I tend to relate that to zonal marking as well. So what are the zones in play for any player?

For defenders, their zonal areas will all likelihood be around 20 yard line. That means its somewhere halfway between the goal line and the halfway line. Somehow or other even if I set an attacker on closing down always, he still pulls away once its in the defenders zone. So 2 on 2s will occur between defenders/midfielders and midfielders/attackers. Never with Attackers/Defenders.

What do you mean by " does it apply to the global definition, or the ingame and manual definition" Closing down is just what it says on the tin.

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  • 1 year later...

rashid1 i employ a 4-3-2-1 formation with the "2" being aml/r my defensive line is mirrored with my attackin mentality which is first notch attack so defensive line first notch push up,my amr/l do they need cd high say 13/14 or will that be to high and pull them out of position?

many thanks

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Yeah since you are playing so high up the pitch I'd have them closing down at least around 13, and make sure the forward runs are minimized for your fullbacks, cos you'd be very high up the pitch, easy prey for a long ball down the flanks

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