Training mode Problem! No Injury

Hello, can you please upload your save file to us so we can review.

 

Hello,

I am sharing the file links about my game careers with you.

https://www.mediafire.com/file/znwmsokey656qwe/Mustafa_G%C3%BCrkan_%C3%87anak%C3%A7i_-_GalatasarayKariyer1-dene4.fm/file

https://www.mediafire.com/file/cnrkcgh0bq2p7z2/Mustafa_G%C3%BCrkan_%C3%87anak%C3%A7i_-_GalatasarayKariyer1-dene3.fm/file

https://www.mediafire.com/file/muqzrivtwoyh7qg/Mustafa_G%C3%BCrkan_%C3%87anak%C3%A7i_-_Valencia4.fm/file

You can try and practice within these careers.

 

Regards

Hello,

I want to upload my game files to your ownCloud. But I could not. Because the system does not give any link after uploading to owncloud.

The size of a file is about 100mb.

if you post an alternative link, then I can upload the files there.

https://oc.sigames.com/owncloud/index.php/s/Kzvhd0MdU3v4Nv4

Hello, I've checked our OwnCloud and your files have been uploaded.

We will review these further, thank you. 

Thanks for taking the time to raise this. Just to clear up a couple of things related to this - player development, condition and injuries are determined by a number of factors not just training, even if training and playing matches are those most important elements. 

A long period of no training will eventually lead to attributes and condition dropping off. Essentially if you don't do any training the majority of the squad will regress. Short-term, like as undertaken in your test, players are likely to have less injuries and condition will restore quickly due to lack of activity. You can't get injured in training if you're not training and resting will restore condition. Saying that, fatigue will build meaning their injury risk and lack of condition will increase later in the season.

We believe that if you continue the test long-term, you'll see more significant changes and drops, both in terms of attributes and having lower condition during matches. Especially so if you don't have a full pre-season - pre-season is essentially the base where you build in a conditioning layer for you players for the rest of the season. 

We will analyse your uploaded save game as well as Zachary has said above to confirm this is indeed happening in your save. But our dev team has taken a look at the information above, hence why we're taking the time to explain this now. 

Thanks. 

@sekansfutbol

It is hard to read your post with such big font, that first xD. 
So, "rest" training programme increase physical condition, so obviously it could not go down if you only use "rest" in you training schedule, unless you meant something else when you wrote "physical condition" in first sentence. Less trainings mean that your player will develop slower, they will still develop, especially if they are young, because they are playing matches and that is the strongest kind of training you can get in the game, and most likely in real world. Also less training mean that there are smaller chances for injury in the match because players are less overworked. 

now saying that. How training works and players are developed is so vague explained in game that devs really need to work on game feedback, after 900h in game I still do not understand what mean an wall of down-pointing arrows that players sometimes get, does not make a sense, but that is topic for different discussion. 

Quote

So let's do it this way, I'm explaining to you one by one.

Intensity level: No pitch or gym work

Training mode: Rest

 

I opened a new career with Beşiktaş team in the Turkish league dated July 20, 2022.

 

I came to the training module. I chose the Rest only module.

I chose the intensity level of the players in the training section as 14 days no pitch or gym work.

I played all the matches without changing my main line players.

I haven't had any major injury problems.

As you know, the problem of disability is quite common at the moment.

When he did it this way, the injury fell incredibly, except for the match.

Imagine that even though the players were in the resting mode, they easily played their matches without losing their physical condition.

The game quality also decreased from time to time, but the players continued to play comfortably.

 

 

Necip, 34, who has never trained and whose intensity level is resting, I get a message from her coaching team that she has performed well in training. My other player Nkodou does the same.

Then I fired my entire coaching team during the World Cup break.
At the end of December, I set the intensity level to "Half Intensity".
I did the training module as "Rest" again.
This time, the injury was again very rare.
I even started getting wins in a row. However, there was no physical change and I had very few injury problems again.

Right now, I am making a career with the BJK team without a coaching team, and both I win and my players can play physically. Although I have minor injuries from time to time in these matches, I do not get major injuries. I played about 20 matches in the league.
I don't think this situation will change after 1 year.
But if you're curious, I'll also share it with you.

I will share this save file with the SI team once the league is over.

@sekansfutbol I've already replied above explaining why this happens in game by design. Players can improve through match experience alone to an extent, but eventually the lack of training will catch up with them. Fatigue will make them more susceptible to injuries.

Also as you started the test AFTER you'd completed a full pre-season earlier that season, they already had a fitness baseline which allows them to be in good shape for a larger portion of the season.

There will be less injuries in the short-term as they're not training - less physical activity would mean less injuries, that absolutely makes sense and is expected behaviour. But longer term as that fatigue builds up, they have a higher risk of injury.

Player attributes will and do reduce having looked at your save game especially with older players. Younger players who benefit from match experience more likely will plateau and no longer improve. However development is something that takes time and is gradual. Much like if you have a player out with injury for months - their attributes will not drop massively as this would be unrealistic. Both progression and regression will always be gradual in FM. Only certain types of injuries (say collision injuries can affect bravery or hamstring injuries pace/acceleration) will be any different. 

I would agree that the information from a coach indicating they have 'trained well in training' when they're on rest is misleading and shouldn't be appearing, but do remember the game is designed to support realism. It is not realistic for any football manager to say to their players 'we don't train any more and we rest instead' so this is only appearing due to the unrealistic situation the game is in. 

Just in relation the element of performance as well and why the team isn't say losing every game, there's a few elements to consider here. 

Firstly the way tactical and match preparation is in game, it's built to work on top of all the other factors (so player attributes, fitness, weather conditions, tactics etc). That isn't going to drop off quickly, especially if they're playing regular competitive matches. You take a solid top level football team and don't work on the tactical side, they aren't going to become terrible overnight. The team in this example is already very strong compared to the league standard, so will continue to do fairly well. 

Secondly, it's a bit of a leap of faith to say that if you're stopping organised training that these players would just sit on their sofa every day and say eat fast food. They're professionals and will continue to behave like them out of match day and training environments.  

The most important point to consider here is you're creating a situation which would never happen in real life and saying "look, this completely unrealistic situation produces an unrealistic result". That isn't all that surprising. We can't code the game to prepare for every single eventuality where a user does something that no real life manager would ever do. What we can confirm from a code perspective is that training of course is an important element as part of player development, fitness, injuries and of course results on the pitch. But like real football, it's not the only element that plays into this. 

They tell stories. I simulated the 3-season training schedule just by resting. Nothing has changed. I finished the season 2nd, 3rd and 1st respectively.

At the beginning of the season, I talked about meaningless and unreal player profiles for pages. All they do is word salad!

Unrivaledness made them this way! @sekansfutbol

12 minutes ago, besiktasfans said:

They tell stories. I simulated the 3-season training schedule just by resting. Nothing has changed. I finished the season 2nd, 3rd and 1st respectively.

At the beginning of the season, I talked about meaningless and unreal player profiles for pages. All they do is word salad!

Unrivaledness made them this way! @sekansfutbol

Provide a save game example and we'd be happy to take a look. Details on how to do so here, just remember to let us know the file name - https://community.sigames.com/bugtracker/instructions-and-notes/how-to-upload-files-to-us-r98/

Thanks. 

I've been paying for this game for 15 years, please do it for me. @Neil Brock

5 hours ago, Neil Brock said:

Secondly, it's a bit of a leap of faith to say that if you're stopping organised training that these players would just sit on their sofa every day and say eat fast food. They're professionals and will continue to behave like them out of match day and training environments.  

The most important point to consider here is you're creating a situation which would never happen in real life and saying "look, this completely unrealistic situation produces an unrealistic result". That isn't all that surprising. We can't code the game to prepare for every single eventuality where a user does something that no real life manager would ever do. What we can confirm from a code perspective is that training of course is an important element as part of player development, fitness, injuries and of course results on the pitch. But like real football, it's not the only element that plays into this. 

@Neil Brock
I am on board with most of what you said but I have to call BS here. Okay I will start with that I am not coder, but you can not code that? really? You can not code slow decline of attributes in long term? Let say if in 4 weeks player do not do 15-20 trainings as minimum then all attributes goes down by 1/5th? Roughly losing 1 point of attribute in half year. Thou those number are example and can be extended if player do less than some threshold then decline would be slower or player would not grow. I just can not believe that something so simple can not be coded.
Hell sometimes my players, regardless of age get a wall of down-pointing arrows, even when doing all week trainings and playing a match on Saturday. That does not make sense, but if player does not train for month then it definitely should get that wall of down-pointing arrows. 


 

 

8 hours ago, Neil Brock said:

There will be less injuries in the short-term as they're not training - less physical activity would mean more injuries, that absolutely makes sense and is expected behaviour. But longer term as that fatigue builds up, they have a higher risk of injury.

 

 I am not sure but I think you wanted to say here:

"There will be less injuries in the short-term as they're not training - less physical activity would mean less injuries, that absolutely makes sense and is expected behaviour. But longer term as that fatigue builds up, they have a higher risk of injury."

Here is a question thou. Would fatigue build up if he have only "rest" trainings scheduled. Why would fatigue build up? 

9 hours ago, sekansfutbol said:

Then I fired my entire coaching team during the World Cup break.
At the end of December, I set the intensity level to "Half Intensity".
I did the training module as "Rest" again.
This time, the injury was again very rare.
I even started getting wins in a row. However, there was no physical change and I had very few injury problems again.

Mate I think you did not got what I had told you. And also as Neil Brock just added to my comment. If you did pre-seson training then your people are ready for season. 
And now if you do not do training during season then you have smaller (not bigger) chances to get injury during season. 

What do you mean by "physical change"? Physical attributes or physical condition, to which you refer before? 

That massage with player doing well in training is definitely out of its place but I would not call it game braking bug, rather cosmetic bug. 

In general trainings do not influence matches results. Apart from those that are "match prep" trainings.  So those light blue colored and those for set pieces, colored red. 

No problem, I understand what you mean. However, it is present in our careers that we do without any training before the preparatory camp, that is, by just resting.
Tomorrow we will share those careers.

At the end of 2 seasons, there are no serious injuries in the rest mode only. Players can easily win matches. Yes, this is one of the big teams in the Turkish league. However, we observe that there is no change in the small teams of similar leagues.

Sports Interactive is not very aware of this, but many users have started to research this issue with me.

A lot of people feel cheated by this, which I think is right.

I think it would be useful to more clearly define what is being tested here.

Are you testing the rate of player attribute decline when team training is not conducted?
Are you testing the rate of team cohesion/tactical familiarity decline when team training is not conducted?
Or something else?

Training, it seems to me, is multi faceted.  There is team training (which the original poster's example stopped).  There is also individual training (including additional focus and PPM training).

Rate of player attribute decline/improvement appear more closely related to individual training than team training, whereas team cohesion/tactical familiarity appears more closely related to team training.

If the goal is to test the rate of attribute decline, it's probably more appropriate to put an end to individual training.
If the goal is to test the rate of decline for team cohesion/tactical familiarity, then it would probably be useful to monitor team cohesion/tactical familiarity decline over time as well as match results.

If the point is to examine the prevalence of injuries, this is probably a bit more complicated.  You probably want to first have a few baseline cases where the team trains normally and plays in matches using a specific tactic over a period of time and examine how often injuries occur.

Then compare this baseline injury frequency to a few schemes where the team is not doing team training.
Repeat with a few schemes where the team is not doing team or individual training.
Doing this on the same save (ie. test one case, document, reload to the first day of the game, test another case etc.) is probably the best practice to ensure players have the same starting attributes (in case of some players having random attributes/PA).

So I think it's important to clearly define what is being tested and use an experiment design which puts the appropriate stress on the relevant game mechanics.  This will probably be of great help for @Neil Brock and others at SI to make specific adjustments where necessary rather than reviewing thousands of lines of code to look for a needle in a haystack.

15 hours ago, perpetua said:

I think it would be useful to more clearly define what is being tested here.

Are you testing the rate of player attribute decline when team training is not conducted?
Are you testing the rate of team cohesion/tactical familiarity decline when team training is not conducted?
Or something else?

Training, it seems to me, is multi faceted.  There is team training (which the original poster's example stopped).  There is also individual training (including additional focus and PPM training).

Rate of player attribute decline/improvement appear more closely related to individual training than team training, whereas team cohesion/tactical familiarity appears more closely related to team training.

If the goal is to test the rate of attribute decline, it's probably more appropriate to put an end to individual training.
If the goal is to test the rate of decline for team cohesion/tactical familiarity, then it would probably be useful to monitor team cohesion/tactical familiarity decline over time as well as match results.

If the point is to examine the prevalence of injuries, this is probably a bit more complicated.  You probably want to first have a few baseline cases where the team trains normally and plays in matches using a specific tactic over a period of time and examine how often injuries occur.

Then compare this baseline injury frequency to a few schemes where the team is not doing team training.
Repeat with a few schemes where the team is not doing team or individual training.
Doing this on the same save (ie. test one case, document, reload to the first day of the game, test another case etc.) is probably the best practice to ensure players have the same starting attributes (in case of some players having random attributes/PA).

So I think it's important to clearly define what is being tested and use an experiment design which puts the appropriate stress on the relevant game mechanics.  This will probably be of great help for @Neil Brock and others at SI to make specific adjustments where necessary rather than reviewing thousands of lines of code to look for a needle in a haystack.

I could not put it better in words. Exactly! I was trying to find what sekansfutbol mean by his particular sentences. 

With regards to this theory, can I ask - if a player is on international duty, they would train regardless of the player, no?

1 hour ago, iiKezza said:

With regards to this theory, can I ask - if a player is on international duty, they would train regardless of the player, no?

He should not do training at your club when away on international duty. 

but maybe he is doing training with national team? I never run national team so I can not answer if they do trainings. 

Edited March 19, 2023 by Furmanbp
added sentence.

1 minute ago, Furmanbp said:

He should not do training at your club when away on international duty. 

but maybe he is doing training with national team? I never run national team so I can not answer if they do trainings. 

That's what I mean sorry, I mean training with the national team itself. 

I don't have the ability to manage training for an international team itself, but logic dictates it probably happens under the hood anyway for fitness reasons etc. 

On 17/03/2023 at 22:37, Furmanbp said:

@Neil Brock
I am on board with most of what you said but I have to call BS here. Okay I will start with that I am not coder, but you can not code that? really? You can not code slow decline of attributes in long term? Let say if in 4 weeks player do not do 15-20 trainings as minimum then all attributes goes down by 1/5th? Roughly losing 1 point of attribute in half year. Thou those number are example and can be extended if player do less than some threshold then decline would be slower or player would not grow. I just can not believe that something so simple can not be coded.
Hell sometimes my players, regardless of age get a wall of down-pointing arrows, even when doing all week trainings and playing a match on Saturday. That does not make sense, but if player does not train for month then it definitely should get that wall of down-pointing arrows. 

To be clear there is slow decline of attributes assuming the criteria is hit for regression. As mentioned above, match experience for some players at a certain point of their career mean that there's a chance they'd just stagnate rather than regress. 

 

On 17/03/2023 at 22:37, Furmanbp said:

 I am not sure but I think you wanted to say here:

"There will be less injuries in the short-term as they're not training - less physical activity would mean less injuries, that absolutely makes sense and is expected behaviour. But longer term as that fatigue builds up, they have a higher risk of injury."

Here is a question thou. Would fatigue build up if he have only "rest" trainings scheduled. Why would fatigue build up? 

Thanks for the spot, have updated as you're right, it should be 'less' injuries.