No technical player development

I hope you are okay with me copy pasting this from this thread:

I have gathered some data with respect to the attributes of outfield players with media description elite/world class/legendary in 2022 vs 2039.
I ran a simulation over night and when I checked it out this morning I did observe that the technical development of players was very poor in 2039 in comparison to 2022, among other findings.
I wanted to see just how big the difference was, so I exported all top outfield players attributes to excel and then took the average attribute value with both the 2022 set (89 players) and the 2039 set (52 players).

Here are my results:

The average FM23 'top' outfield player 2022:

Physicals
Acceleration: 14.0
Agility: 13.8
Balance: 14.4
Jumping reach: 11.3
Natural fitness: 15.1
Pace: 14.1
Stamina: 14.5
Strength: 12.9

Mentals
Aggression: 12.4
Anticipation: 15.5
Bravery: 13.5
Composure: 15.1
Concentration: 13.6
Decisions: 14.5
Determination: 15.8
Flair: 14.3
Leadership: 12.4
Off the ball: 14.4
Positioning: 10.9
Teamwork: 14.5
Vision: 14.8
Work rate: 14.1

Technicals
Corners: 10.0
Crossing: 12.2
Dribbling: 14.2
Finishing: 12.7
First touch: 15.6
Free kicks: 11.4
Heading: 11.7
Long shots: 12.5
Long throws: 6.0
Marking: 9.2
Passing: 15.2
Penalties: 12.8
Tackling: 15.8

The average FM23 'top' outfield player 2039:
Difference from 2022 in parentheses, any negative change more than 1 attribute point in red, any positive change more than 1 attribute point in green

Physicals
Acceleration: 12.4 (-1.6)
Agility: 13.4 (-0.4)
Balance: 14.3 (-0.1)
Jumping reach: 11.3 (±0)
Natural fitness: 13.4 (-1.7)
Pace: 13.0 (-1.1)
Stamina: 15.5 (+1.0)
Strength: 14.8 (+1.9)

Mentals
Aggression: 11.9 (+0.5)
Anticipation: 18.5 (+3.0)
Bravery: 12.9 (+0.6)
Composure: 16.6 (+1.5)
Concentration: 15.6 (+2.0)
Decisions: 17.5 (+3.0)
Determination: 15.3 (+0.5)
Flair: 11.0 (-3.3)
Leadership: 17.9 (+5.5) !
Off the ball: 12.1 (-2.3)
Positioning: 14.6 (+3.7)
Teamwork: 11.8 (-2.7)
Vision: 14.8 (±0)
Work rate: 12.0 (-2.1)

Technicals
Corners: 8.1 (-1.9)
Crossing: 6.2 (-6.0) !
Dribbling: 8.7 (-5.5) !
Finishing: 5.6 (-7.1) ! (jesus christ)
First touch: 11.4 (-4.2)
Free kicks: 8.7 (-2.7)
Heading: 8.9 (-2.8)
Long shots: 8.6 (-3.9)
Long throws: 6.9 (+0.9)
Marking: 12.6 (+3.4)
Passing: 11.2 (-4.0)
Penalties: 8.5 (-4.3)
Tackling: 9.8 (-6.0) !

The physical attributes are pretty balanced (maybe the quickness should be a bit higher for 2039).
Anticipation, decisions, leadership and positioning are the standout mentals in terms of being too high for the 2039 group, with flair, off the ball, teamwork and work rate being the opposite of that.
As for the technicals, this is where the extremes start.
Crossing, dribbling, finishing, first touch, passing, penalties and tackling all being on average more than 4 attributes points lower for the 2039 group than the 2022 group. Marking is the only attributes that was higher for the 2039 group by a significant margin.

My thoughts:
Obviously this is maybe not the perfect example and test as I am using the group of top players in 2022 as some kind of benchmark.
Future generations of top footballers will of course not have the exact same set of attributes as the current one, so in my opinion a difference of less than 1 attribute point is expected and realistic.
I hope this data can be helpful for SI in the process of making the long term player development in FM23 the best ever!

I also want to mention that only one league was loaded while simulating, which could have impacted the results. In my opinion, that doesn't really matter, because player development should be realistic either way. But I will try this again with the top leagues loaded just to see if the results are different!

Thank you for flagging this, we are aware of the issue and are currently investigating. 

38 minuti fa, Zachary Whyte ha scritto:

Thank you for flagging this, we are aware of the issue and are currently investigating. 

Thank you Zachary. Can we expect the issue to be fixed with the final version of the game?

And more important, will this be a save game compatible ? Starting a youth only on the beta.

2 hours ago, OlivierL said:

And more important, will this be a save game compatible ? Starting a youth only on the beta.

It will likely be fine. Nothing is ever truly game breaking. 

How about more than one whole sentence from SI on this huge and frankly game-breaking bug that absolutely needs to be fixed for release? This is a type of known issue that should have been communicated here in the forums (at the very least) if it indeed was known. Any generation of newgen will be broken before this fix is implemented, and probably after as well unless it is save-game compatible. 

3 minutes ago, Wlocke said:

How about more than one whole sentence from SI on this huge and frankly game-breaking bug that absolutely needs to be fixed for release? This is a type of known issue that should have been communicated here in the forums (at the very least) if it indeed was known. Any generation of newgen will be broken before this fix is implemented, and probably after as well unless it is save-game compatible. 

I’ve had players develop. 

1 hour ago, Wlocke said:

How about more than one whole sentence from SI on this huge and frankly game-breaking bug that absolutely needs to be fixed for release? This is a type of known issue that should have been communicated here in the forums (at the very least) if it indeed was known. Any generation of newgen will be broken before this fix is implemented, and probably after as well unless it is save-game compatible. 

I think that’s an unfair statement. It’s not a magic wand. They have noted they are aware of issue and working on it. They have thanked the posters for their contribution. Would you expect a webcast be opened to shadow their cubes this upcoming g week? 

42 minutes ago, s0ni42 said:

I think that’s an unfair statement. It’s not a magic wand. They have noted they are aware of issue and working on it. They have thanked the posters for their contribution. Would you expect a webcast be opened to shadow their cubes this upcoming g week? 

 

On 21/10/2022 at 15:24, Zachary Whyte said:

Thank you for flagging this, we are aware of the issue and are currently investigating. 

The game is unplayable until this is fixed. Especially running a team with an average age of 22, a season of technical progress lost is the difference between winning a league and struggling. 
I can't bring myself to continue playing until the issue is gone.

41 minutes ago, srcCyn said:

 

The game is unplayable until this is fixed. Especially running a team with an average age of 22, a season of technical progress lost is the difference between winning a league and struggling. 
I can't bring myself to continue playing until the issue is gone.

This is a Beta, with this goal of identifying issues. Come back on 11/8.

1 hour ago, s0ni42 said:

I think that’s an unfair statement. It’s not a magic wand. They have noted they are aware of issue and working on it. They have thanked the posters for their contribution. Would you expect a webcast be opened to shadow their cubes this upcoming g week? 

As the poster above said, this bug means the game is literally unplayable for a sizable portion of the player base. I'm not asking for a magic wand, I'm asking for transparency, a much more in-depth answer (rather than a one-sentence one), and hopefully an improvement for similar "known issues" in the future. Knowing that newgens don't improve as they should is a huge problem and should absolutely have been communicated. I work in software development and if we're shipping a product/release to customers you can be damned sure that we'll inform them of known issues that are relevant to their interests. 

20 minutes ago, Wlocke said:

As the poster above said, this bug means the game is literally unplayable for a sizable portion of the player base. I'm not asking for a magic wand, I'm asking for transparency, a much more in-depth answer (rather than a one-sentence one), and hopefully an improvement for similar "known issues" in the future. Knowing that newgens don't improve as they should is a huge problem and should absolutely have been communicated. I work in software development and if we're shipping a product/release to customers you can be damned sure that we'll inform them of known issues that are relevant to their interests. 

Yes, I understand it’s a critical issue. But this is an open Beta. There’s a long list of issues big and small. I think that the role of this beta is to test and identify issues. The current release that is available makes no claim that it is a final product. Forums certainly cannot translate tone, so maybe I’m misreading the original post, but I am not sure what your expectation is from SI’s perspective. If this was happening after the actual release and was fundamentally preventing you from playing game with no refund available your concerns and request for a more detailed explanation would be warranted. 
 

For the record I agree that this issue is very important and a critical area of the game. But having participated in this Beta a few times over, I think the experienced player base should offer some degree acknowledgement that SI generally addresses the issue raised during the Beta ahead of release. To boot, the game sees additional patches applied at several intervals post-release as well. You may not like all the headline features, but we almost always have a high quality, well functioning simulation engine by release date. 

The whole point of a beta is so they can get help spotting issues and working on correcting them. If they shake you up that much then perhaps you should wait until the game releases .    Could we also stop calling every issue game breaking, seems to be very dramatic.  I also find it odd how you are demanding an indepth answer, They said they are looking into it, if they filed an 8 page report on every glitch or issue they would never get the issues fixed. you dont deserve  a full explanation for every issue they fix, you deserve a working game by the time the full product is released post beta. How about we let them do that instead of freaking out about three word replys.

My 2 cents. This is a game breaking bug. My favourite thing is to bring through youth prospects and develop them so the fact that technical attributes do not grow making me extremely disappointed.

 

For those sayings "Its a BETA, come back on 8th Nov". Ill bring the attention that the editor in FM22 was never fixed and that youth prospects were overlooked for older players. Never fixed. 

 

46 minutes ago, Ross Ingersoll said:

The whole point of a beta is so they can get help spotting issues and working on correcting them. If they shake you up that much then perhaps you should wait until the game releases .    Could we also stop calling every issue game breaking, seems to be very dramatic.  I also find it odd how you are demanding an indepth answer, They said they are looking into it, if they filed an 8 page report on every glitch or issue they would never get the issues fixed. you dont deserve  a full explanation for every issue they fix, you deserve a working game by the time the full product is released post beta. How about we let them do that instead of freaking out about three word replys.

FM22 youth prospects were constantly overlooked for older players. Created teams that brought in older players rather than develop youth. That ruins long term saves. Never fixed.

If players dont develop technical attributes it ruins long term saves. Its a game breaking bug. No two ways about it. 

There's two scenarios here 

1. SI didn't know about the bug which makes you thin what tests they do to see the logic in long term saves. One person had to just set simulate it and found it.
2. More likely, they have known about this issue and should have been communicated before hand. If its been known before hand, it must of been identified well in advance to the beta and brings into question if it will be fixed before launch

For me, if this was a bug that was known to me I wouldn't of pre-ordered. I certainly wouldn't of bought it if it wasn't fixed. As it stands for me, the part I enjoy most doesn't work.

Maybe hold SI to a higher standard?

If this is not a game breaking bug, what else is? Of course we've all been playing this game for years and know what early access is, but this bug makes it impossible to play long-term saves. game breaking bug should not only be considered as a technical impossibility to play the game. (like crash to destkop or  stuck on a spesific date) after all, it's a video game and we all play it to enjoy it. nobody gets paid to find bugs in the game, but we pay to be able to play it. long-term plays are not  joyful for me(and I think it will be like that for a lot of people.), so the player who cannot progress in long-term games cannot give feedback to the developer for this period of game as a result, the beta period will not  fulfill its purpose..

Edited October 23, 2022 by krymert

4 ore fa, Ross Ingersoll ha scritto:

The whole point of a beta is so they can get help spotting issues and working on correcting them. If they shake you up that much then perhaps you should wait until the game releases .    Could we also stop calling every issue game breaking, seems to be very dramatic.  I also find it odd how you are demanding an indepth answer, They said they are looking into it, if they filed an 8 page report on every glitch or issue they would never get the issues fixed. you dont deserve  a full explanation for every issue they fix, you deserve a working game by the time the full product is released post beta. How about we let them do that instead of freaking out about three word replys.

It's one of the biggest gamebreaking bug there can be for a player that like to develop youth prospects. And what i expect from SI is saying, for example, "this will be fixed for the official release". Because for all we know this GAME BREAKING bug could be still present at release and past that and that would be unacceptable.

3 hours ago, krymert said:

If this is not a game breaking bug, what else is? Of course we've all been playing this game for years and know what early access is, but this bug makes it impossible to play long-term saves. game breaking bug should not only be considered as a technical impossibility to play the game. (like crash to destkop or  stuck on a spesific date) after all, it's a video game and we all play it to enjoy it. nobody gets paid to find bugs in the game, but we pay to be able to play it. long-term plays are not  joyful for me(and I think it will be like that for a lot of people.), so the player who cannot progress in long-term games cannot give feedback to the developer for this period of game as a result, the beta period will not  fulfill its purpose..

do you think you two are the only ones who sim ahead?   I for one run tons of test sims as do a lot of content creators i know. lets not act like tons of people dont sim ahead all the time. Hell, some sim ahead 100 years

i will leave you to your sky is falling mentality. I for one accept the staffs answer and am sure it will be fixed in due course. Have a pleasant evening 

Edited October 23, 2022 by Ross Ingersoll

35 dakika önce, Ross Ingersoll said:

do you think you two are the only ones who sim ahead?   I for one run tons of test sims as do a lot of content creators i know. lets not act like tons of people dont sim ahead all the time. Hell, some sim ahead 100 years

What makes you think I said such a thing? Have I ever written anywhere that only I simulated it? Do I need any approval from you to point out this problem?

Of course the developers have to fix this bug. Some people don't like to be herded like sheep, some people continue to blindly defend what is done wrong .The beta process is not a phase where the game is taken out of the cave and put in front of us,  before that, as seen on social media, many people were tested the alpha version, and I am sure that the studio's test team tested the product many times before the alpha version. It is unacceptable that such a bug could not be noticed despite all these stages. Nevertheless, it is very interesting that you make strange characterisations about our ideas and thoughts and defend this situation in this way

 

On 21/10/2022 at 15:24, Zachary Whyte said:

Thank you for flagging this, we are aware of the issue and are currently investigating. 

Does anyone know timescales for this sort of bug? Really stopping me from playing the game as I love to generate youth and work them into the first team. Will it be weeks or days is all I'm wondering really. Thanks.

For those that are not very familiar how game/code development works in companies:

I am pretty sure there is a team/person responsible for youth development attributes in a game. The bug was noted on Friday afternoon by forum moderators, it will be notified/taken a look at on Monday morning when everyone is in the office. Forum moderators probably would love to give us more insights but they cannot do that until the responsible team/person reviews and provides a feedback.

Everyone need to relax a bit, developers are humans too and generally do not fix/review bugs over the weekends.

9 hours ago, Ross Ingersoll said:

i will leave you to your sky is falling mentality. I for one accept the staffs answer and am sure it will be fixed in due course. Have a pleasant evening 

You wanna answer why the bug where youth prospects were overlooked and older players were purchased instead or the fact the dynamic youth ratings were BROKEN in FM22 and NEVER FIXED? 

I bring evidence of them not fixing major issues in the game and youre just gobbling up whatever they say.

Again - Maybe hold SI to a higher standard?

On 22/10/2022 at 19:03, s0ni42 said:

This is a Beta, with this goal of identifying issues. Come back on 11/8.

No one is expecting a flawless game during beta. What should be expected is simply this: better and more transparent communication regarding such a game breaking bug (that for many, including me, renders the game unplayable. 

Hold SI to a higher standard or keep seeing our favourite gaming franchise devolve into an unplayable mess (with basically zero positive progress in terms of gameplay). As aj6658 said above, bugs such as youth prospects being overlooked or youth ratings being broken are never fixed. Countless other bugs as well. Should we just accept a one sentence answer for issues like this? Where's the accountability? 

SI need to come out and making a commitment to fixing this issue. This is a serious, game breaking bug.

Accountability to the fans