Non League Football Question

Hi

I am getting my head around the editor now and am embarking on my first project.

The re-structuring of the scottish leagues.

So far i have created 4 leagues of 16 teams Prem-1-2-3 as normal (playing H/A) for 30 games. I have also created a new format for the league cup. With 64 teams in the top flight i have gone for 16 groups of 4 teams qualifying for the last 16 which is 2 legged until the final. I have loaded the game up and it is working so far.

My issue now is with the lower leagues. I do not wish to go for a flat league system as there will be to many divisions (16 in total). I am hoping to put some B and C teams in for more established teams like rangers, celtic, hearts and hibs etc. To monitor this development i wish to be able to see the leagues in play.

My plan was to have 4 teams relegated from div 3 and then have 4 senior leagues below this, where 1 team gets promoted from each to the third division (Senior leagues A,B,C and D) then below these Junior leagues A,B,C and D followed by Amateur leagues A,B,C and D. Obviously league A would be the progressive route through to the league so a team in Amateur A would have to go through the A system to reach the football league and so on with B,C and D.

Currently all i can see is sub divisions where you cannot modify or setup league data you just allocate a sub division and there must be some kind of hard coding that defines who would go into which division when relegated. Can i set up 4 leagues below my third division and have 1 team from each going up with 4 teams going down (one into each division) or can i only use sub divisions?

Thanks

Rich

Anyone? I have seen other post having done this. So i just need a tip how it can be done.

Thanks

RichG

A good example of how this works is the English Blue Square North and South, so check that out. In this case, if memory serves, there are actually three divisions entered into the database - the BS North, BS South and a special third one called something like 'Blue Square Regional Divisions' which does not have any teams entered. When you add this one in, you can specify the divisions that are in this level.

For a promoted/relegated club to be placed into the 'correct' division within a level, there are two methods; it's advisable to use both! For this, each club should therefore have two pieces of info added:

1. a stadium, located in a city which has longitude and latitude values set. Each individual league can then have geographical boundaries set - i.e. a box, where up to 4 cities (also with set longitude and latitude values) define the limits of the box.

2. regional competition settings. If you navigate to each club, you will set a competition tab, and within this each club has a tab for setting regional divisions. In your case, you'd add a Level box (e.g. '4'), and enter the appropriate division the club should go into at that level. Repeat as necessary for all levels and all clubs.

Without setting 2, clubs at a level will be reshuffled each season. Without setting 1, clubs won't have a reasonable fallback position should their chosen division be over-subscribed.

It takes time, but the results can really be worth the investment.

OK i have checked Blue Square and i get what you are saying about a teams regional settings allocating them a league progression route and decline.

My next issue is with point 1.

None of the blue square teams are designated by longitude or latitude so how is this controlled? They are all set by level rating and have 4-5 divisions of destination. My set up will be

Scottish Prem 16 Teams (level 1)

Scottish Division One 16 Teams (level 2)

Scottish Division Two 16 Teams (level 3)

Scottish Division Three 16 Teams (level 4)

4 Senior Leagues A,B,C and D 16 Teams (level5)

4 Junior Leagues A,B,C and D 20 Teams (level 6)

4 Amateur Leagues A,B,C and D 20 Teams. (level 7)

If i set all current teams to the appropriate routes of advancement and the 3rd division teams set to their decline route as long as the perfect scenario happens i am fine. My issue is if 1 team from each A,B,C and D leagues goes up and 4 teams come down with a D rating what happens? Do i set the league to have a maximum of 28 teams to cover mass decline of all D area teams? And also do i have to set a low minimum setting of all other leagues to allow for their reduction in numbers due to one area having poorer teams than them.

Thanks

RichG

The teams ARE located by longitude or latitude - via their stadium, which is located within a city.

At the end of the season, teams will be re-shuffled between divisions to keep the number of teams in each division constant, i.e.:

Scottish Division Three 16 Teams (level 4)

4 Senior Leagues A,B,C and D 16 Teams (level5)

4 Junior Leagues A,B,C and D 20 Teams (level 6)

4 Amateur Leagues A,B,C and D 20 Teams. (level 7)

would remain constant. Where a division is over or under-subscribed, the game will try to find the next most logical solution (e.g. moving a team from slightly outside the borders into an under-subscribed division) to ensure the numbers stay the same. For that to work well, obviously you will need to make sure the criteria are properly set...

If you don't make the settings above, all the teams at Levels 5, 6 and 7 will be reshuffled (sideways, between divisions on the same level) each season.

It may be that you can get away with only doing my point 2, so I'd try that first... then test for a season or two on holiday mode to see how it works. If it's still not working well enough, then you'll need to add in any missing stadia or check that they are all located in cities that have longitudes and latitudes properly set.

I actually did something very similar to what you're proposing when I first got my hands on the editor, and it was a joy to play - so good luck

Man this is hard work lol

I have allocated all my teams now and have my structure. Prize money needs refining as it was a little high in the first test. Celtic and Rangers have B and Youth teams allowed up to level 3 but not 2. Then all other respecatable teams have B teams. Cups are set up as FA Cup, League Cup, League One, Two and Three Cups (Thinking of dropping League challenge cup). Then Senior, Junior and Amateur Cups so all teams have a chance of some success while trying to move through the leagues.

I am now working through all the teams (280) to refine them. Defining local rivals & route sytem for promotion and relegation based on area as suggested. All teams have 10,000 added to their stadium expansion to allow for future growth should they rise through the divisions. No Increased attendance, Suger Daddies or Financial bonuses have been added at all to give anyone an unfair advantage but obviously Celtic and Rangers have a larger finacial gain from aditional financial incomes.

All teams have some level of sponsorship set as well. Starting with Senior, Junior and Amatur teams getting £50-100 deals so something is in place again to offer some financial reward later should they rise through the leagues and negotiate bigger deals. (this however needs lenthy testing to see what develops)

Overall i am pleased with the setup. More detail will be given later once all Data config is complete. May need some slight team adjustments if teams dominate leagues they are set in.

Thanks for your help so far

RichG

It's a lot of work, but it really makes the game feel like it's yours... it'll be worth it!

Rich - I'm coming towards the end of a really similar project, having already mapped out regional divisions and suchlike. My league structure is fairly similar to yours;

Scottish National Championship 1 (16 teams)

Scottish National Championship 2 (16 teams)

Scottish National Championship 3 (16 teams)

2 x Scottish National Championship 4 (16 teams) - North & South leagues

8 x Scottish National Championship 5 (16 teams) - leagues spilt according to region (going geographically by the 8 police authorities in Scotland)

8 x Scottish National Championship 5 (14 or 16 teams) - leagues spilt according to region (again, going geographically by the 8 police authorities but also including U18 sides from the professional sides and the better semi pros)

Scottish Cup, as it normally is

Revamped Scottish League Cup (group stage for 48 teams for top 3 leagues, then knockout)

Four Nations' Cup (2 groups of 4 teams from Sco, Ire, Wal & N Ire) and a final for the group winners

Pretty much all of the teams are promoted or relegated into the correct regional leagues, though it took me ages to work out the best regional division boundaries and allocate every club regional divisions in their competitions tab.

Once I've fully finished tested, I'm happy to share if you want any of the regional settings.

Yeah thebluesigns i agree. Sorting the leagues is very hard and i may have to tweak mine slightly before begining.

I also noticed the Police regions on Wiki and thought of using those for my lower leagues as the south region was short of teams and the East of scotland had more than enough. I think re-structuring scotland is a great first project to learn the editor and its capabilities.

I am going to run a 10 season (holiday) test when done and see how things shape up and where teams are after this period and whether the Senior,Junior and Amateur leagues are still containing the correct teams or at least 80% correct.

I also need to see how my sponsorship and ground expansions pan out so as not to create unrealstic development. i.e. a team in the lower leagues with a 10,000 stadium averaging 200.

Overall though going well.

2. regional competition settings. If you navigate to each club, you will set a competition tab, and within this each club has a tab for setting regional divisions. In your case, you'd add a Level box (e.g. '4'), and enter the appropriate division the club should go into at that level. Repeat as necessary for all levels and all clubs.

Without setting 2, clubs at a level will be reshuffled each season. Without setting 1, clubs won't have a reasonable fallback position should their chosen division be over-subscribed.

It takes time, but the results can really be worth the investment.

Is THIS where I'm going wrong? 10 tiers and I've got the long/lat for every city and stadium, but I didn't check any regional comps. Can I just clarify your meaning? Say my lowest tier is tier 10 with no relegation but promotion spots. Do I direct league 10A into 9A in the regional comp box, or do I put 10A and 9A??

If division 9A has prom and releg, do I put 8A,9A and 10A or what?

Would really appreciate clarification here, cheers

Yeah i think that is how it works.

If you had a prem North with Div 1,2 and 3 North below it you would have to asign all divisions in the clubes regional leagues. Then place the correct league level in the level box. I do not think the order matters in the tab just that all leagues are allocated.

I also think from advice i have got so far that this is only a guide for the game and if a 24 team division finds it has 25 teams you can either set a min max limit to allow the league to change size or cap it so max and min are the same then teams will be shuffled by long and lat data to the next approriate league.

I have not fully tested mine yet but i think that is how it works

Thanks RichG. Um, can you or someone else explain that again in different words since I can't make sense of what you're trying to say.

In my game as an example i have say. Celtic Reserves in my Amatuer Division D (lowest level) i would set their regional leages to go

Amateur Division D - Level 7

Junior Division D - Level 6

Senior Division D - Level 5

Above this they go into the football league so do not need regional leagues for this.

However following a 2 season test i found that my leagues still re shuffled all teams in the Senior, Junior an Amateur leagues even with City and Regional Leagues Set so a bit confused. All the teams shifted leageus and somehow all Reserve teams ended up in Senior League D following their promotions from their respective Junior leagues (they all came from different Junior leagues). Aberdeen, Celtic, Rangers etc even though they are from different cities.

I have subsiquently added regional boundries to the senior leagues to see if this helps with teams within the league and keeping some regemented order per season.

I am running a 20 hour test on this version and will analize data tomorrow. Should be about 40 seasons. so will have a good view of how teams move and develop within the system. I will also see how Reserve and U20 teams (Celtic and Rangers Only) restrict any promotions from Division 2 when they get there as promotion from Division 2 is restricted for B and reserve teams.

Will post all my findings here to help others trying to develop leagues of their own

mate i'm doing a similar thing with Australia and Oceania it takes some work. I've got some states split into 3 sub regions, NZ split into North & South, and all the Oceanic nations split apart.

it's still nowhere near done as FM doesn't even half the correct teams for Australia, with 1 territroy forgotten all together!

but it's so much fun to do, i think i enjoy it more than playing!

So, in short: I feel your pain mate and wish you the best.

I'm trying to re-work England and at the moment have only set regional boundaries with my leagues.

(Think this morning I am going to sit and put the regiounal leagues to each team - but don't want to do that till I want to get all levels done and still have answers I need answering before I can go deeper)

My example thou of teams not falling right is Altrincham, you would expect them to fal into the Northern League - but they have gone to the Southern League although their northern boundary is set to Oxford. In between their is the Midlands League to with it's north boundary set to Crewe and south to Oxford.

Now what I am wondering is it really a case of no room in the two more Northern leagues, or the game not recognising it. Wuoldn't it of shifted teams closer to the boundaries more south than putting a total abnormality into the leagues?

It should've - check the longitude/latitudes of the cities of clubs involved to make sure they are present and correct.

Also, in situations like this note that for each of the regional divisions you don't HAVE to specify 4 boundary cities. In this case it would be best actually to just specify a southern boundary for the northern league and a northern boundary for the southern league - you don't need to specify the 'spare' eastern and western boundaries.

Right, thanks RichG, I understood that example perfectly. I'll go into my xml and add the regional leagues now.

OK 25 season test is done

Amazing results and some seriously unexpected goings on lol. Nothing odd just how a game develops over time. Gonna look into how to upload photo's/images over weekend and write up findings on Mon next week when i have more time. Funny though. Considering i altered no teams potential, attendance, money or personel it ran well.

Regarding lower leagues I checked the winners and actually they were pretty regular. I have added boundries to the leagues to see if this further improves the outcomes. Reserve teams did not dominate the lower leagues as i feared and did not block teams going into Div One.

One sneak preview was Celtic got relegated once but came straight back up. It became a very open and good scottish title (results to be posted next week)

Version 1.2 Testing

I have now made some minor tweaks to prize money and TV money as i felt they were slightly high and this may has impacted on the demise of Rangers and Celtic and the rise of some unepected new forces in Scottish Football. I will see how these alter the outcome in my next test (Fri 5/2/2010 15:00 - Mon 8/2/2010 - 08:00) UK times so about 60 hours (40 Seasons I hope).

Definate Updates for Version 1.3

1) Local Derbies will be added to all teams

2) Re-allocation of some teams. Some lower league teams need adjusting for Amateur and Semi-Pro ratings so starting in appropriate leagues

Possible Updates for Version 1.3

1) Removal of all Reserve and U20 teams. I am not happy with this. It did not have the desired feel i thought it would.

2) Standardising of League Cup back to knock out only. (may wait until i play 2 season trial as a manager).

3) With the possibe re-standardising of League Cup a season split may be re-introduced for a 35 or 40 game domestic season.

RichG

I'd love to give this a go. Looking forward to some screenshots and the eventual release!

EDIT: Didn't realize how old this thread was! Just clicked a link from a topic in the tactics forum. It would be cool if you released this as I'd like to play with a better league system in Scotland.

I am currently testing the game real time now

After numerous 30+ season holiday tests i am now testing it.

Currently in my third season with Vale of Leven and doing well from Amateur league D.

Finding a few minor errors that did not show up on holiday testing but screen shots and release will be coming soon i hope. Had to buy a new laptop as well lol as my old one would not run game so most of my testing was only during work breaks.

Should get back on track now. hence lost time on post.

main issue is the game setup. I feel 30 games is to few so trying split in prem and 3 rounds in lower leagues and seeing how the balance works out. Celtic and Rangers seem to dominate with split but not so with only 30 game season. (first test 45 season last 17 seasons only rangers won 1 title and celtic none). Also lower leagues worked well with some small teams making it to the big time after 25-30 seasons so an element of breaking into the big time works. Also Dundee united grew to a 55,000 stadium and avg attendance of 50k + after the 45 season test dominating the game with around 15 titles in a around 27 seasons. Ayr and Queen of the South were the other dominant teams in this demo.

Still playing with a few scenarios before offering it out for trial and game play.

Thanks for the post though.

RichG aka RDG

I keep finding minor issues and end up tweaking and starting again with my 10-tier structure. Rich, what minor issues have you found most recently?

I'd love to have a look at this, especially in light of stories in the media this week about possible restructuring in Scotland!

Been running for 4 seasons now. A few minor (bareable mistakes) Mainly games no being played on days I thought they would. Will post link in after easter hols for you to load an see what you think