My Thoughts - FM09 - Not a Rant

[Hammer1000]

I'll start with the usual, i've been playing this series of games since the DOMARK days on the Amiga. I mention this, only because i have had the (mostly) good fortune of playing each and every release since then and as such, i feel that i am in a position to give my own opinion of what the game has become.

I started 09 with the Demo, this obviously gives me a chance to learn the ropes again and get used to any new features the makers have introduced.

To be honest, i was not overly keen and as such, i did not go out and buy the game immediately on full release. I waited until the first patch had been released and then only after reading feedback from certain posters here on the Forums(no names) and promptly decided that the game was worth a punt at £15 + my copy of FM08.

Now, to quickly cut through all the boring stuff, at the hope you may read on? the following is what i have experienced so far whilst playing FM09 with the first patch.

I have started many new games since my purchase, almost always with West Ham, but i always tend to run a game with one of the "Big Four" to get a feel for how different Management is, between a mediocre team and a team expected to challenge for honours?

With West Ham, i have actually found myself doing better, when only doing the very basics, as opposed to playing the game day by day and taking control of every aspect and/or feature.

For instance, when i played the game WITHOUT doing things such as team talks, press conferences, using OI's and using a tactic set, instead, leaving everything to my Ass Man, using a single tactic and holidaying between each game etc, plus, changing from one single tactic 3 times in a season(every 15 games or so) i managed 6th place in the EPL first season and even won the FA Cup.

Now, when i played the game pretty much in its entirety, team talks, OI's, Press talks and doing the whole thing day by day, using just one tactic set for different in match situations, basically, playing the game in the depth it has now been developed to play, i have actually faired much worse?

I suppose the big question i'm leading up to is asking, are all these additions to the game year after year basically just dressing? is there really any need for it at all?

Is it simply there to make the game appear more realistic? because personally, with all the issues that come with each new feature, i actually think it detracts from the overall sense of realism?

Lets take the 3D or 2D match experience for example, what is more realistic, watching the commentary and reading that X player has scored for X team, or watching the 3D/2D and seeing your £40M defender stand still with the ball at his feet until the opposing striker takes it from the static defender and scores?

Or reading commentary that your World Class striker has missed another sitter, or watching him in 3D/2D miss his 5th open goal of the game from 3 yards out?

Then we have the 50 page document that has been endorsed by one of the game creators and everyone is saying its a must read if you want to understand the game and that you have to be more involved now than before and that it is the only way to play the game now that it is so indepth, etc, etc, but thats hardly the case is it?

Please dont get me wrong, i would much prefer the more indepth version, but for people to take that much time out of their lives to play the game in its entirety, then the makers HAVE to make sure, that its absolutely necessary and not all just dressing, as it appears.

From reading the Forums, its obvious that most peoples frustration is built up from the fact that, despite spending hours and hours and maybe only managing to play 1 or 2 games in that time, they feel no reward for all the time they have spent trying to do every little thing properly and as an extra annoyance, are no closer to understanding what is actually right or wrong, or even to this day, after so many releases, just what the sliders represent singularly or collectively?

Of course it all comes down to personal opinion at the end of the day and mine is that whilst the game IS much less FUN to play than it used to be, this would matter far less, if all the new features worked AND were absolutely necessary to improve your fortunes as a Football Manager.

[Hammer1000]

I did mean to add to the original post that in each and every save, my teams performances on a whole actually became decidedly WORSE, once the side had gelled and certain players had learnt the language?

I was wondering if anyone else had come across this phenomenon? especially as we are led to believe that squad gelling is so massively important.

[Dicko99]

agree with everthing here, except the 2d/3d part i couldnt go back to just commentary

[Neclord]

I'll start with the usual, i've been playing this series of games since the DOMARK days on the Amiga. I mention this, only because i have had the (mostly) good fortune of playing each and every release since then and as such, i feel that i am in a position to give my own opinion of what the game has become.

I started 09 with the Demo, this obviously gives me a chance to learn the ropes again and get used to any new features the makers have introduced.

To be honest, i was not overly keen and as such, i did not go out and buy the game immediately on full release. I waited until the first patch had been released and then only after reading feedback from certain posters here on the Forums(no names) and promptly decided that the game was worth a punt at £15 + my copy of FM08.

Now, to quickly cut through all the boring stuff, at the hope you may read on? the following is what i have experienced so far whilst playing FM09 with the first patch.

I have started many new games since my purchase, almost always with West Ham, but i always tend to run a game with one of the "Big Four" to get a feel for how different Management is, between a mediocre team and a team expected to challenge for honours?

With West Ham, i have actually found myself doing better, when only doing the very basics, as opposed to playing the game day by day and taking control of every aspect and/or feature.

For instance, when i played the game WITHOUT doing things such as team talks, press conferences, using OI's and using a tactic set, instead, leaving everything to my Ass Man, using a single tactic and holidaying between each game etc, plus, changing from one single tactic 3 times in a season(every 15 games or so) i managed 6th place in the EPL first season and even won the FA Cup.

Now, when i played the game pretty much in its entirety, team talks, OI's, Press talks and doing the whole thing day by day, using just one tactic set for different in match situations, basically, playing the game in the depth it has now been developed to play, i have actually faired much worse?

I suppose the big question i'm leading up to is asking, are all these additions to the game year after year basically just dressing? is there really any need for it at all?

Is it simply there to make the game appear more realistic? because personally, with all the issues that come with each new feature, i actually think it detracts from the overall sense of realism?

Lets take the 3D or 2D match experience for example, what is more realistic, watching the commentary and reading that X player has scored for X team, or watching the 3D/2D and seeing your £40M defender stand still with the ball at his feet until the opposing striker takes it from the static defender and scores?

Or reading commentary that your World Class striker has missed another sitter, or watching him in 3D/2D miss his 5th open goal of the game from 3 yards out?

Then we have the 50 page document that has been endorsed by one of the game creators and everyone is saying its a must read if you want to understand the game and that you have to be more involved now than before and that it is the only way to play the game now that it is so indepth, etc, etc, but thats hardly the case is it?

Please dont get me wrong, i would much prefer the more indepth version, but for people to take that much time out of their lives to play the game in its entirety, then the makers HAVE to make sure, that its absolutely necessary and not all just dressing, as it appears.

From reading the Forums, its obvious that most peoples frustration is built up from the fact that, despite spending hours and hours and maybe only managing to play 1 or 2 games in that time, they feel no reward for all the time they have spent trying to do every little thing properly and as an extra annoyance, are no closer to understanding what is actually right or wrong, or even to this day, after so many releases, just what the sliders represent singularly or collectively?

Of course it all comes down to personal opinion at the end of the day and mine is that whilst the game IS much less FUN to play than it used to be, this would matter far less, if all the new features worked AND were absolutely necessary to improve your fortunes as a Football Manager.

I can quite understand what you are saying.

09 has Lots of bells and whistles but it just isn't as fun anymore. I personally don't think the 3D match view is anything great, was it really even necessary? I ended up switching back to 2D view so I could see the position of every player and track their off the ball movement which becomes harder with the 3D view because of the awful and limited camera angles. I personally feel 07 was the most enjoyable and consistant version so ive decided to return to that since after measuring each release up side by side and playing the heck out of them, it's the one I enjoy the most. I feel as more generic features have been added to each release they've lost their simplicity, and thus become less fun.

The media 'interaction' only serves to giving your team a morale boost or a morale downturn, and it's just a case of picking the 'right' answers to the questions. It's only worth answering the questions if you know it will give a certain player(s) a morale boost who needs it, just make sure you know which one will produce the effect you want.

By the way why are you concerned over whether it will be viewed as a 'rant'? You didn't swear, you didn't insult anyone, you just gave your honest opinion. Just express yourself and pay no attention to what others think of what you have to say.

[Hammer1000]

agree with everthing here, except the 2d/3d part i couldnt go back to just commentary

Dont get me wrong, i love the look of both the 3D and the 2D, but the amount of goals conceded from things like players standing still with the ball at his feet, until opposing player takes it from him for an easy goal, or the keeper not picking up the ball in his own area when it has come from an opposing player and again, opposing player takes it from him and scores etc, etc, all these things take away ANY feeling of realism that watching the game in either 3D or 2D may otherwise have had.

Then you have the extra annoyance of wondering if these scenarios were caused by an underlying problem with your tactics, or just the games way of making you concede a goal?

The 3D is excusable somewhat, because it has just been introduced, but surely after being part of so many releases now, this problem should have been flushed from the 2D(yes i know they are linked)?

[Hammer1000]

I can quite understand what you are saying.

09 has Lots of bells and whistles but it just isn't as fun anymore. I personally don't think the 3D match view is anything great, was it really even necessary? I ended up switching back to 2D view so I could see the position of every player and track their off the ball movement which becomes harder with the 3D view because of the awful and limited camera angles. I personally feel 07 was the most enjoyable and consistant version so ive decided to return to that since after measuring each release up side by side and playing the heck out of them, it's the one I enjoy the most. I feel as more generic features have been added to each release they've lost their simplicity, and thus become less fun.

The media 'interaction' only serves to giving your team a morale boost or a morale downturn, and it's just a case of picking the 'right' answers to the questions. It's only worth answering the questions if you know it will give a certain player(s) a morale boost who needs it, just make sure you know which one will produce the effect you want.

By the way why are you concerned over whether it will be viewed as a 'rant'? You didn't swear, you didn't insult anyone, you just gave your honest opinion. Just express yourself and pay no attention to what others think of what you have to say.

Thank you

I suppose my main worry was that people would think that i'm going all round the houses to say that i think the game has become too difficult and that all i really wanted was a click and win tactic.

This is far from the truth, i have always thought that the game could and maybe should be harder, but not to the point that it becomes impossible for people to understand WHY its so difficult?

Surely you HAVE to give people the tools to understand, more so now that the game is introducing feature after feature, many that fixes in the patches prove have not been introduced properly. Then like i say, wondering if these features actually even make a difference or are purely cosmetic?

This i feel is where the fun has seeped out of the game, i cant help but think that a simple Ass Man statement maybe saying "it just was'nt our day today" or "(team name) played out of their skins today" or something to that effect would improve things enormously, because we are aware that these things happen in football, its the not having a clue what you did wrong, tactic, team talk, press conference, the team you picked etc, etc, etc, that gets people frustrated and wondering "How do i stop that happening again, when i dont know what went wrong in the first place?"

[Mitja]

Thank you

I suppose my main worry was that people would think that i'm going all round the houses to say that i think the game has become too difficult and that all i really wanted was a click and win tactic.

This is far from the truth, i have always thought that the game could and maybe should be harder, but not to the point that it becomes impossible for people to understand WHY its so difficult?

Surely you HAVE to give people the tools to understand, more so now that the game is introducing feature after feature, many that fixes in the patches prove have not been introduced properly. Then like i say, wondering if these features actually even make a difference or are purely cosmetic?

This i feel is where the fun has seeped out of the game, i cant help but think that a simple Ass Man statement maybe saying "it just was'nt our day today" or "(team name) played out of their skins today" or something to that effect would improve things enormously, because we are aware that these things happen in football, its the not having a clue what you did wrong, tactic, team talk, press conference, the team you picked etc, etc, etc, that gets people frustrated and wondering "How do i stop that happening again, when i dont know what went wrong in the first place?"

i'm sure the most of FM players, especially us on this forums, would really apriciate if FM10 was just a better version of 09. there's no need to introduce new features, just 'perfect' the existing ones. but i doubt this could happen, becouse of marketing reasons.

i like many others find media interaction and teamtalks very annoying becouse of things you guys described. i don't think they are purely cosmetic but it would almost be better if they were. if i was at SI i would seriously think about that..and tried to expand player interaction.

[Hammer1000]

i'm sure the most of FM players, especially us on this forums, would really apriciate if FM10 was just a better version of 09. there's no need to introduce new features, just 'perfect' the existing ones. but i doubt this could happen, becouse of marketing reasons.

i like many others find media interaction and teamtalks very annoying becouse of things you guys described. i don't think they are purely cosmetic but it would almost be better if they were. if i was at SI i would seriously think about that..and tried to expand player interaction.

Mitja - I would happily pay full price if the next installment was simply an update with 99% of issues sorted out, some that go back 3 or 4 releases.

I'd also gladly pay a tenner for a Tactic and Team Talk guide, i have not been able to put together my own decent tactic since 07 and hate relying on other peoples tactics or maybe getting lucky with the sliders.

[Neil Brock]

I'd also gladly pay a tenner for a Tactic and Team Talk guide, i have not been able to put together my own decent tactic since 07 and hate relying on other peoples tactics or maybe getting lucky with the sliders.

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php?t=61144

That's £10 you owe me

[baker.simon]

This is not a criticism but, how come all posters casting their opinions feel the need tell us how long they have been playing the game? Surely it doesn't matter if you started in the Domark Amiga days or if FM09 is you first foray into the FM series! Seniority is not a privelage! Owning the game is!

[Hammer1000]

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php?t=61144

That's £10 you owe me

If i knew how to do smileys? you'd get 5 for that, but a "lol" will have to do.

No offence to wwfan and Millie, but this has not helped one jot, defensively it works a treat, but one goal scored every three games is just not quite enough.

Funnily enough, i did better with the default tactics, changing only the mentality?

[Hammer1000]

This is not a criticism but, how come all posters casting their opinions feel the need tell us how long they have been playing the game? Surely it doesn't matter if you started in the Domark Amiga days or if FM09 is you first foray into the FM series! Seniority is not a privelage! Owning the game is!

I did explain that the only reason i mentioned it is simply that i can personally measure how far the game has come in all this time between then and FM09, i certainly did'nt mention it as giving me any kind of bragging rights, or implying my opinion was worth any more than anybody else.

[baker.simon]

I did explain that the only reason i mentioned it is simply that i can personally measure how far the game has come in all this time between then and FM09, i certainly did'nt mention it as giving me any kind of bragging rights, or implying my opinion was worth any more than anybody else.

Sorry Hammer1000, it wasnt a dig at you personally, just the amount of people who feel that the longer they have been playing the more right they have over other people! Nearly every post starts off with it and there is no need!

[Hammer1000]

Sorry Hammer1000, it wasnt a dig at you personally, just the amount of people who feel that the longer they have been playing the more right they have over other people! Nearly every post starts off with it and there is no need!

Not a problem mate, i understand where you are coming from, which is why i attempted to make an apologetic way of adding it to the opening post.

[Les Girondins]

I found the game utterly unplayable on v 9.1; chief reason was the fact every game was a ECL Final. It made no real sense seeing crap players doing amazing things, especially the dribbling and the long shots/placed shots.

Now that crap players (including my own) are crap again, I'm able to make tactics that work based on the AI's weaknesses. Beforehand, it didn't matter because they would always play like Manchester United in the second half regardless of anything I did ..

I can now play on the break and make use of my players limited skills instead of needing to have better players to even get a draw - regardless of the opposition.

This in my book is the best thing about the patch and has effectively given me back my game experience.

Oh and I have also noticed the tweak to transfers making clubs stop pay over the odds for players, they now only seem to bid when the asking price is realistic or they really want that player. Which is nice ..