Why is the english league so strong in Europe?

[OriginalGrowler]

Its getting silly now. they were dominant in FM08, but come on, tone it down a little. Every season its arsenal, chelsea, man u or liverpool. I had to go into the editor and reduce the co-efficients just to make it a little bit of a challenge.

And its just the champions league its the UEFA cup too.

[dudester]

Well over the last 4 years how many times have English sides been in the champs league final the game is currently mirroring the strength of the premier league.

[Sky]

Exactly... let's face it, English football is dominant at the moment, especially the big 4. Also, the Italians never really recovered from the corruption scandals, Milan are in a freefalling decline, and the Spaniards are weakened in their transition phases as well. It's not just about money either because Barca and Madrid are no lackeys in spending power.

[byrner]

yea its actualy very realistic!

[BamaToon]

Think about how many continental players are on English clubs, and it makes sense.

[Jimbokav1971]

Just look at how many English clubs have made it to the semi-Finals over the last few years. Just looking at the winner might b a little misleading, but looking at the final 4 will give you a better idea.

If you still think it's not very realistic then maybe you need to load more structures.

In previous FM issues, a playable league has always gained an advantage over a non-playable league, (well as soon as they are better than grey players anyway) lol. So maybe maybe if you just have the ENglish structure active, then restarting with the German, Spanish, Italian, Portugese, Dutch & French structures playable might even it out a little.

[Micado]

yea its actualy very realistic!

It is indead, like others mentioned, check the last 4 of each european cup over the last years and you will see al lot English clubs.

The only thing on FM08 what was not correct was the strenght of the National team of England, which was no where near the actual strength irl (that is my vision).

[eXistenZ]

Just wait untill Blatter can do his 6+5 rule and you will see english teams fall very quickly.

[robertodibaggio]

Just wait untill Blatter can do his 6+5 rule and you will see english teams fall very quickly.

Will never happen

[frogsplash101]

I agree, as its an illegal rule the champions league homegrown rule is better and legal

[ScorpionSting]

The major problem I see at the moment is the success of English clubs in the UEFA cup, since that just isn't happening. The Champions League though is fine, since all four of the big four in England have been regularly featured in at least the semi finals over the past few years.

Just wait untill Blatter can do his 6+5 rule and you will see english teams fall very quickly.

I'd be very surprised if that idiocy ever got implemented, not only would it break EU employment laws, it would be very likely to cause some sort of major revolt from UEFA or at least the major clubs/leagues throughout Europe.

[Jase1982]

Don't a few nations already only allow only 3 non EU players anyway?

[khalil]

Italian League has a rule saying you can't have 2 or 3 non EU players in your squad.

[Jase1982]

I suppose this is slightly different because we're all part of the EU now and have to abide by "human rights".

[Themistofelis]

Well, for 1st time German teams got more t-shirt money this year from the English ones, Bayern Munchen now is number 1 in t-shirt sponsor earnings (last year it was Man utd ) ; also Bundesliga is number 1 in attendances .
In Europe the rising power is Russia and this is undisputed , Spanish economy can not be top and also many teams are owned by construction companies who went to the dogs with the economic crisis , the French still prefer cycling over football , the English are in financial decline and so are the Germans ( although Germany is more populated with a bigger economy ).
As for 2008-2009 season it looks like Premiership is tops but it will start to decline soon ( already big clubs have to face the burden of debts ) , i am not an economist but in a maximum of 5 years Russian league will dominate everything in Europe.

As about the 6+5 rule it just suck and it will never be applied , football clubs are companies and none can dictate them who they can employ and who they can not.

[MrPompey]

As mentioned, look at the dominence of English clubs in the Champions league.

Can you remember which 2 teams were in the final?

[Nomis07]

I've never really found the English teams to be dominant in Europe on my games, Juve and Inter have been the teams to beat for the last 15 seasons. However, I do find the English almost impossible to beat, I seem to struggle agaisnt them and have been on the other end of a couple of absolute hammerings, but the AI doesn't seem to have the same problem.

[eXistenZ]

I'd be very surprised if that idiocy ever got implemented, not only would it break EU employment laws, it would be very likely to cause some sort of major revolt from UEFA or at least the major clubs/leagues throughout Europe.

Is a revolt always bad? so you think England just had a bit of bad luck not qualifie for the EC? It would protect young home players and secure the future of national teams. And from what i know, there are still more people watching the WC than the national leagues. offcours if you are someone who doesn't care a bit about how your country does,...

If you were a young football player with a reasonable amount of talent, you go to a club, and they say: don't need you, we just got a load of fresh african and east-european players who cost 10x as less, i wonder if you would still think like that

[Micado]

Don't a few nations already only allow only 3 non EU players anyway?

Spain is one of them, Italy also (iirc). For the UK they (the non EU) needs a workpermit.

In Holland theire is no limit what so ever for fielding NON EU players.

[Sky]

The only thing on FM08 what was not correct was the strenght of the National team of England, which was no where near the actual strength irl (that is my vision).

Actually the England team is very strong, it's just that they underperform and have very poor chemistry playing with each other. I'm not sure if national teams in FM have this chemistry (the 'blending in' feature in FM09), if they do, England's should be very low to reflect reality. But there's no denying that players like Gerrard and Ferdinand are world class.

[Mike7077]

The best Blatter can hope for is a limit on non-EU players. Anything else would quite simply be against EU law. I suppose he could try and take the EU on, but I don't think he would succeed.

[lee50_11]

Exactly... let's face it, English football is dominant at the moment, especially the big 4. Also, the Italians never really recovered from the corruption scandals, Milan are in a freefalling decline, and the Spaniards are weakened in their transition phases as well. It's not just about money either because Barca and Madrid are no lackeys in spending power.

yep this is true

[eXistenZ]

The best Blatter can hope for is a limit on non-EU players. Anything else would quite simply be against EU law. I suppose he could try and take the EU on, but I don't think he would succeed.

Indeed. i hope something like this will happen. it happens already in Spain, and hey the won the EC. so it is not a bad thing. So they should do it in england also. but then also the regulations for the clubs in belgium should chage also, because you can get a belgium nationality afther 3 years. the reason why so many English clubs have a belgian sattelite club. if this doesn't change, england will not be helped

[Beneamata]

The EU rule in italy only applies to annual transfers, not team lists/squads.

[Mike7077]

I strongly dislike protectionism. I hope such a rule never comes in. Just my personal opinion.

[Nomis07]

I don't get why people go on about foreigners being the problem in England, and how the national team is affected because the top teams don't have many English players. Two years ago Italy won the world cup, their league winner had only one Italian (Toldo) in the matchday squad against Liveprool in the CL.

AFAIC foreigners is an excuse England fans have grabbed hold of in a vein attempt to excsue their failings.

[Beneamata]

I strongly dislike protectionism. I hope such a rule never comes in. Just my personal opinion.

I kinda agree with your philosophy, but I'm not so sure when it comes to football.

France improved on the international stage by some kind of enforcement (exactly what it was I don't remember ), as did Italy as various times, and you could maybe even throw in Scotland with their under-21 rule.

I hear what you're saying, just some food for thought.

[Mike7077]

I've always maintained that the biggest enemy of English football is not foreigners, but the English game itself. More specifically, it's the way we get our kids into it. Most successful nations focus on getting their kids working with the ball. They want them to learn to feel comfortable with it. But in England, right from the start, we're thrown into eleven-a-side matches on full size pitches and expected to "get stuck in". Very few players are going to develop technical ability with a start like that.

[Mike7077]

I kinda agree with your philosophy, but I'm not so sure when it comes to football.

France improved on the international stage by some kind of enforcement (exactly what it was I don't remember ), as did Italy as various times, and you could maybe even throw in Scotland with their under-21 rule.

I hear what you're saying, just some food for thought.

France's improvement came about because they set up the Clairefontaine academy. The team of 1998-2000 that did so well was full of Clairefontaine graduates.

[Yallii]

I agree, as its an illegal rule the champions league homegrown rule is better and legal

This causes English clubs to plunder youth sides across Europe though.

[Wakers]

Its getting silly now. they were dominant in FM08, but come on, tone it down a little. Every season its arsenal, chelsea, man u or liverpool. I had to go into the editor and reduce the co-efficients just to make it a little bit of a challenge.

And its just the champions league its the UEFA cup too.

do you not watch european football?

[Svenc]

There's the big four, and after that there's a big gap -- like someone said, it's not *just* money, it's also the management. And beyond Chelski, Liverpool, Arsenal and United there really isn't anything elite class. Mind you, four clubs, that's already plentyful for a single league. But it's also really just these four that have given the Prem League its rep. That is, so far.

[Micado]

Actually the England team is very strong, it's just that they underperform and have very poor chemistry playing with each other. I'm not sure if national teams in FM have this chemistry (the 'blending in' feature in FM09), if they do, England's should be very low to reflect reality. But there's no denying that players like Gerrard and Ferdinand are world class.

I agree on the worldclass players like Gerrard etc, but I mentioned TEAM. They just are not a great team irl, but are on FM.

Little bit like Holland (Euro 2008 they were doing fine, but that was an exception which noboby ever could dream off).

[ScorpionSting]

Is a revolt always bad? so you think England just had a bit of bad luck not qualifie for the EC? It would protect young home players and secure the future of national teams. And from what i know, there are still more people watching the WC than the national leagues. offcours if you are someone who doesn't care a bit about how your country does,...

Nice job making a whole load of assumptions on my personal opinions based on what I think the major Football entities reactions would be like. Besides England failed to qualify for the EC not because of lack of talent (England can still claim to have one of the best midfield's of any country as well as a world class defensive line), but because of a variety of other factors like a lack of motivation, bad tactics and a general bad attitude toward the national team.

Indeed. i hope something like this will happen. it happens already in Spain, and hey the won the EC. so it is not a bad thing. So they should do it in england also. but then also the regulations for the clubs in belgium should chage also, because you can get a belgium nationality afther 3 years. the reason why so many English clubs have a belgian sattelite club. if this doesn't change, england will not be helped

Spain has been producing world topping youth teams for years and had until this year completely failed at the senior level, mostly because of, you guessed it, attitude and squad harmony not because of any lack of necessary talent. Their having a limit on non EU players has had absolutely no impact on their national teams success. Having a winning culture coupled with a strong self belief goes a very long way to producing good national team results (Look at Germany in particular for an example of that).

[digi7al]

I agree tht Englands club teams are currently the best performing in europe also under Capello we look like the world class team we should,

[Beneamata]

France's improvement came about because they set up the Clairefontaine academy. The team of 1998-2000 that did so well was full of Clairefontaine graduates.

I didn't know of that institution; just read a little about it - thanks.

Like I said I don't disagree - I just think there must be something to International teams improving like they have when their leagues have introduced rules to encourage playing youth/domestic players.

How much that's responsible though I don't know.

[Leaf_Fan_85]

I don't get why people go on about foreigners being the problem in England, and how the national team is affected because the top teams don't have many English players. Two years ago Italy won the world cup, their league winner had only one Italian (Toldo) in the matchday squad against Liveprool in the CL.

AFAIC foreigners is an excuse England fans have grabbed hold of in a vein attempt to excsue their failings.

So?

The majority of that Italian team was playign in Italy at the time. There was NOBODY playing outside the penninsula.

And to top that, Juve won the league that season but the title was given to Inter after the Calciopoli scandal.

1 GK Gianluigi Buffon Juventus
2 DF Cristian Zaccardo Palermo
3 DF Fabio Grosso Palermo - Transferred To Inter
4 MF Daniele De Rossi Roma
5 DF Fabio Cannavaro Juventus - Transferred to Real Madrid
6 DF Andrea Barzagli Palermo
7 FW Alessandro Del Piero Juventus
8 MF Gennaro Gattuso Milan
9 FW Luca Toni Fiorentina
10 FW Francesco Totti Roma
11 FW Alberto Gilardino Milan
12 GK Angelo Peruzzi Lazio
13 DF Alessandro Nesta Milan
14 GK Marco Amelia Livorno
15 FW Vincenzo Iaquinta Udinese
16 MF Mauro Camoranesi Juventus
17 MF Simone Barone Palermo
18 FW Filippo Inzaghi Milan
19 DF Gianluca Zambrotta Juventus - Transferred To Barcelona
20 MF Simone Perrotta Roma
21 MF Andrea Pirlo Milan
22 DF Massimo Oddo Lazio
23 DF Marco Materazzi Internazionale

So you have 5 members on the team that "won" the Serie A and not one player who before the tournament was not playing in Italy

[T4RG4]

Well, for 1st time German teams got more t-shirt money this year from the English ones, Bayern Munchen now is number 1 in t-shirt sponsor earnings (last year it was Man utd ) ; also Bundesliga is number 1 in attendances .
In Europe the rising power is Russia and this is undisputed , Spanish economy can not be top and also many teams are owned by construction companies who went to the dogs with the economic crisis , the French still prefer cycling over football , the English are in financial decline and so are the Germans ( although Germany is more populated with a bigger economy ).
As for 2008-2009 season it looks like Premiership is tops but it will start to decline soon ( already big clubs have to face the burden of debts ) , i am not an economist but in a maximum of 5 years Russian league will dominate everything in Europe.

As about the 6+5 rule it just suck and it will never be applied, football clubs are companies and none can dictate them who they can employ and who they can not.

1) Bundesliga Shirt Sponsorship larger than Premiership - True, but suffers from reporting bias
Okay, this is suggested by the most recent figures. Yet you craftily missed out this widely reported comment "Due to the weak British pound, Bayern Munich beat Manchester United to the title of the most valuable jersey deal,” Hartmut Zastrow, the executive director of SPORT+MARKT" He also went on to mention the overall value of the Premierships shirt sponsorship had been heavily influenced (negatively) by the likes of West Hams sponsor going bankrupt and WBA still looking for a partner and Aston Villa being all nice and allowing a charity to be their logo for 1 GBP.

SPORT+MARKT also expects England to regain its pre-eminence. “If the currency or the teams that are lacking a paying sponsor recover, the Premier League will top the ranking again next season,” Gareth Moore, the international sales director

2) Bayern Munich No.1 sponsor earnings - Again true, but suffers from the same reporting bias
See above.

3) Bundesliga No.1 in attendences - Not entirely accurate...
Last year (which is the most accurate representation if we're talking season attendence) Ligue 1 and Serie A had higher average attendences than the Bundesliga (21,574 & 22,947 versus 18453 courtesy of www.weltfussball.de). However, that is just one source. Another I found suggested Bundesliga last season saw an average of 38,612 versus the Premierships 36,076 which matches your statement. However, we'd do well to remember that each season will see a shift (however small) in figures for teams are promoted and demoted throughout the leagues. Some have huge stadiums others have smaller stadiums. The same site suggested a total attendence within the Bundesliga of 11,815,215 versus 13,676,390 for the Premiership.

Therefore I'd suggest the Bundesliga is currently comparable to Serie A and ahead of Ligue 1, the latter has always been quite small. Serie A could also be said to have had a tough time of late. Bundesliga is still riding a spike because of the recent football tournament.

4) Russia rising power undisputed - An obvious yes
If you mean it's becoming more prominent then yes, I would agree. It's not hard, with new found wealth, to raise the profile of a league long in the wilderness.

5) Spanish economy cannot be top, many owned by construction companies who went under - Yes-ish
They could be the top. I think it'd be a mistake to say everything will remain as it is today. Spain hasnt the best sponsorship packages, they always seem to lag behind. The Dutch league is meant to be close to overtaking! Shows you how bad it is. Yet they are a powerful footballing league and clubs are always attractive to investers. If one group of owners goes down I'd imagine clubs would be sold.

6) French prefer cycling over football - Not viewing figures wise
Football is still widely classed as the most watched sport in France. Your statement was a little strange so it's hard to tackle. 'Prefer' is up to the individual.

7) English in financial decline, so is Germany (although Germ has bigger economy and larger population) - Because of the Credit Crunch?
England houses the financial centre of Europe (within London) so I'd imagine wide reporting of financial strain within the British economy. Crunches will happen again in the future. This one will finish and we'll go back to normality.

Germany has, for many a year, had a strong economy and I believe they lead the current GDP list (and are expected to for a few more years at least) closely followed by France, then the UK and Italy. A strong drop then we see Spain and Russia before another huge drop onwards to other nations.

I think it is said that Denmark is meant to offer the best quality of life (overall)? They are 16th on the GDP list which might suggest economic size is no hint of quality of life for the average citizen. Over 11 countries faired higher than Germany (including the UK and the mighty Malta).


8) 08/09 season Prem is top but it will start to decline soon because of big debts - Says who?
That is your personal opinion? Most large businesses operate (as do the most powerful nations on this earth) with serviceable debt. I'd prefer it if they do not

9) Within max 5 years Russian league will dominate everything - Unlikely
I'd say that is unlikely. As mentioned earlier, they've had a large leap because of an influx of money. When you look at the wider picture you have to ask yourself how likely it is that they will be able to attract the majority of talent. I can understand under-priviledged South Americans going there and a few Europeans for the money on offer but have you ever spent time in Russia? In some parts it's booming (Moscow, SPeters etc) but there is still an awfully long way to go before players from the UK/Italy/Spain/Germany would consider living there as easily as they would the host nations of established leagues, leagues with years of great history. The latter will not change any time soon.

10) 6+5 rule will never be applied - Tend to agree
I would quite like to see it (even though I think it'd affect the Premiership more than some other leagues) because I'm one of the 'win fairly' types and I think it'd benefit the national teams. However, there is an argument for national pride being focussed on national and not club teams which makes sense.


Themistofelis - I do not mean to attack you in any way. My return fire is meant in a light-hearted and non-competitive way and I hope you'll take it as such

[Beneamata]

Juve won the league that season but the title was given to Inter after the Calciopoli scandal.

The F.I.G.C./Lega Calcio would differ - they would say Inter won the title and it was taken from dishonest Juve.

There is a commonly recited phrase regarding this issue - juventus won the title on the pitch. They didn't - they tried to win it in clandestine meetings and referees rooms.

[Falastur]

The same site suggested a total attendence within the Bundesliga of 11,815,215 versus 13,676,390 for the Premiership.

The Bundesliga only has 18 teams.

[jsolloso]

There is no way the English leagues would stay strong forever. These things come and go. Although financially English clubs have high financial flexibility they arent immune to a sporting decline but FM always has them above other leagues, even when they have squads full of rubbish regens with weak stats. I agree, this needs sorting, other leagues should be allowed the chance to flourish especially if you make them powerful enough. Just look at the reputation rise of the Turkish league in recent years or of the Russian league. Money helped but so did sporting results. This however is not reflected in FM.

[glamdring]

I get really bored seeing loads of English teams in the last 4 of the Champions League, but at the moment the game mirrors real life unfortunately in that. As has been mentioned above though, the game does not currently model ths situation in the UEFA cup quite so well because English clubs have consistently underperformed in that competition for years and years. Sure two lost on penalties last year, but that is irrelevant - ultimately getting knocked out is getting knocked out. Modelling that in a game though is very hard - implicitely it means the game has to make it so that the "big 4" in England are almost impossible to break into...which would make the game so dull that loads of people (myself included) would stop buying it.

[Themistofelis]

True, but suffers from reporting bias
Okay, this is suggested by the most recent figures. Yet you craftily missed out this widely reported comment "Due to the weak British pound, Bayern Munich beat Manchester United to the title of the most valuable jersey deal,” Hartmut Zastrow, the executive director of SPORT+MARKT" He also went on to mention the overall value of the Premierships shirt sponsorship had been heavily influenced (negatively) by the likes of West Hams sponsor going bankrupt and WBA still looking for a partner and Aston Villa being all nice and allowing a charity to be their logo for 1 GBP.

All you posted are true , yet in pure numbers i didn't post something wrong .

SPORT+MARKT also expects England to regain its pre-eminence. “If the currency or the teams that are lacking a paying sponsor recover, the Premier League will top the ranking again next season,” Gareth Moore, the international sales director

Also true , i took my info from a local newspaper (that's why i didn't provide any links), in pure numbers overall earnings for Buldesliga clubs are down compared to 2007 figures , Premiership clubs seem to be affected more .

Bundesliga No.1 in attendences[/B] - Not entirely accurate...
Last year (which is the most accurate representation if we're talking season attendence) Ligue 1 and Serie A had higher average attendences than the Bundesliga (21,574 & 22,947 versus 18453 courtesy of www.weltfussball.de). However, that is just one source. Another I found suggested Bundesliga last season saw an average of 38,612 versus the Premierships 36,076 which matches your statement. However, we'd do well to remember that each season will see a shift (however small) in figures for teams are promoted and demoted throughout the leagues. Some have huge stadiums others have smaller stadiums. The same site suggested a total attendence within the Bundesliga of 11,815,215 versus 13,676,390 for the Premiership.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...sports_leagues

and

http://www.european-football-statistics.co.uk/attn.htm

Just 2 examples clearly showing Bundesliga having slightly better average attendances from Premiership .

Therefore I'd suggest the Bundesliga is currently comparable to Serie A and ahead of Ligue 1, the latter has always been quite small. Serie A could also be said to have had a tough time of late. Bundesliga is still riding a spike because of the recent football tournament.

In Germany football is a show for the masses , cheap tickets , terraces etc , that's why they rejected big TV money last year. Italy is ruined by violence , political tensions and very very boring style of play , TV here (i am in Greece) stop covering Italian Serie A because none was watching .

5) Spanish economy cannot be top, many owned by construction companies who went under - Yes-ish
They could be the top. I think it'd be a mistake to say everything will remain as it is today. Spain hasnt the best sponsorship packages, they always seem to lag behind. The Dutch league is meant to be close to overtaking! Shows you how bad it is. Yet they are a powerful footballing league and clubs are always attractive to investers. If one group of owners goes down I'd imagine clubs would be sold.

Spain has a Mediterranean economy and like 15.000.000 less people from the rest of the big countries , the Dutch market is nowhere near the big leagues because the country is small , yet they do have industry to support the clubs via sponsoring and big scores can stick you in the sofa to watch a game so there is some potential.

6) French prefer cycling over football - Not viewing figures wise
Football is still widely classed as the most watched sport in France. Your statement was a little strange so it's hard to tackle. 'Prefer' is up to the individual.

The French are a strange case , although i don't think that football has more viewers than tour de France they do like it but speaking with several Frenchmen i 've got the idea that they think of the game as something the immigrants play , something for the low classes , of course i can be wrong.

7) English in financial decline, so is Germany (although Germ has bigger economy and larger population) - Because of the Credit Crunch?
England houses the financial centre of Europe (within London) so I'd imagine wide reporting of financial strain within the British economy. Crunches will happen again in the future. This one will finish and we'll go back to normality.

I thought that Glasgow is the economic centre of Europe but never mind , I wrote that having in mind that Chelsea fired half of their scouters and from now on players will have to pay for candies in team's shop , three big clubs have a debt around 1 billion pounds, no ?
Also the English clubs are spending big loads of money for players ( when a Greek club enquired about Modric his price was like 5m , an English club had to pay 20m for him only months later ) and extravagant wages , i think that crisis or no things are going out of hand ; again this is how i view things and i never claim to be the Pope

That is your personal opinion? Most large businesses operate (as do the most powerful nations on this earth) with serviceable debt. I'd prefer it if they do not

most powerful nations on this rock seem to go down quickly ,of course it is just my personal opinion .

9) Within max 5 years Russian league will dominate everything - Unlikely
I'd say that is unlikely. As mentioned earlier, they've had a large leap because of an influx of money. When you look at the wider picture you have to ask yourself how likely it is that they will be able to attract the majority of talent. I can understand under-priviledged South Americans going there and a few Europeans for the money on offer but have you ever spent time in Russia? In some parts it's booming (Moscow, SPeters etc) but there is still an awfully long way to go before players from the UK/Italy/Spain/Germany would consider living there as easily as they would the host nations of established leagues, leagues with years of great history. The latter will not change any time soon.

I am also watching other sports ( like Basketball, Volleyball etc ) and Russians have already gather the best of the best there - including some former Panathinaikos & Olympiacos players both two of the richest basketball clubs on the continent , football will just follow . Money talk in football and with all that money around quality of life will improve in Russian steppes as well .

Themistofelis - I do not mean to attack you in any way. My return fire is meant in a light-hearted and non-competitive way and I hope you'll take it as such

Attack? no , i always enjoy good debates . Just keep in mind that i am Greek fan of Olympiakos SFP and i couldn't care less about who is top and who is bottom in European ranking , also i have no likes or dislikes among other nations ( specially among fellow EU members ) -okay i do totally hate watching Serie A .

[glamdring]

However, that is just one source. Another I found suggested Bundesliga last season saw an average of 38,612 versus the Premierships 36,076 which matches your statement. However, we'd do well to remember that each season will see a shift (however small) in figures for teams are promoted and demoted throughout the leagues. Some have huge stadiums others have smaller stadiums. The same site suggested a total attendence within the Bundesliga of 11,815,215 versus 13,676,390 for the Premiership.

If total attendance is less in the Bundesliga despite average attendance being higher then that can only be down to there being fewer games played (they have a shorter season by 2 games) so total attendance is an unfair statistic really. I'm sure the English Championship ranks pretty highly against many top European leagues on total attendance since they have 46 games per season!

[T4RG4]

Good reply Themistofelis - a good, clean debate about the world around FM

[Themistofelis]

FM always has them above other leagues, even when they have squads full of rubbish regens with weak stats. .

This is not true , in previous games Spanish and Italian leagues were more reputable from the English one; of course the starting rosters set up has been atrocious for years .

[eXistenZ]

So?

The majority of that Italian team was playign in Italy at the time. There was NOBODY playing outside the penninsula.

And to top that, Juve won the league that season but the title was given to Inter after the Calciopoli scandal.

1 GK Gianluigi Buffon Juventus
2 DF Cristian Zaccardo Palermo
3 DF Fabio Grosso Palermo - Transferred To Inter
4 MF Daniele De Rossi Roma
5 DF Fabio Cannavaro Juventus - Transferred to Real Madrid
6 DF Andrea Barzagli Palermo
7 FW Alessandro Del Piero Juventus
8 MF Gennaro Gattuso Milan
9 FW Luca Toni Fiorentina
10 FW Francesco Totti Roma
11 FW Alberto Gilardino Milan
12 GK Angelo Peruzzi Lazio
13 DF Alessandro Nesta Milan
14 GK Marco Amelia Livorno
15 FW Vincenzo Iaquinta Udinese
16 MF Mauro Camoranesi Juventus
17 MF Simone Barone Palermo
18 FW Filippo Inzaghi Milan
19 DF Gianluca Zambrotta Juventus - Transferred To Barcelona
20 MF Simone Perrotta Roma
21 MF Andrea Pirlo Milan
22 DF Massimo Oddo Lazio
23 DF Marco Materazzi Internazionale

So you have 5 members on the team that "won" the Serie A and not one player who before the tournament was not playing in Italy

Very good reply Leaf fan. and in 2006 the italian league winner was a league winner who got his titel wrapped in a present. Inter is a club with no self-respect. thankgod it is the only club i italy who is almost completly exists from foreigners. Clubs like Milan, Juventus, Roma, Palermo and so on have still a good amount of italians. But you will have to search very hard to find a club with a lot of english players in england.

[Jimbokav1971]

Well, for 1st time German teams got more t-shirt money this year from the English ones, Bayern Munchen now is number 1 in t-shirt sponsor earnings (last year it was Man utd ) ; also Bundesliga is number 1 in attendances .
In Europe the rising power is Russia and this is undisputed , Spanish economy can not be top and also many teams are owned by construction companies who went to the dogs with the economic crisis , the French still prefer cycling over football , the English are in financial decline and so are the Germans ( although Germany is more populated with a bigger economy ).
As for 2008-2009 season it looks like Premiership is tops but it will start to decline soon ( already big clubs have to face the burden of debts ) , i am not an economist but in a maximum of 5 years Russian league will dominate everything in Europe.

As about the 6+5 rule it just suck and it will never be applied , football clubs are companies and none can dictate them who they can employ and who they can not.

1. I think 2 English clubs have gone at least a portion of this season with no shirt sponsor. I have a feeling that someone is sponsored by a charity for a nominal sum, (although this might be a Championship club). This skews the figures somewhat.

2. The weak £ in terms of exchange rate also impacts upon relative sponsorship in this manner.

3. I dispute that "in Europe the rising power is Russia".

4. I do not agree that more French people like watching cycling than football.

5. I certainly do not agree that more people participate in competetive cycling races than participate in competetive football games.

6. Forget Russia dominating everything in 5 years. A single Russian team will not have reached the Champions League Final in 5 years never mind about dominating everything.

7. As for the 6+5 rule being illegal, actualy it's not at all. A club can emply any staff/players within the existing National guidelines. What UEFA/FIFA whoever do have control over is the make-up of the squads that they allow to participate in their tournaments. They can say whatever they ant and employment law has absolutely no impat on this whatsoever. The club adhered to employment law in respect of who it employs. It must adhere to national FA rules with regards to the players it plays in it's league games. It must adhere to FIFA rules with regards to players that it plays in UEFA tournaments.

[jsolloso]

Aston Villa are sponsored for 1 GBP, I'd hardly call them a Championship Club!

Themistofelis - True what you say but when it comes to European competitions even with rubbish regens who harbour attrocious stats, the English teams would still remain dominant.

[Beneamata]

in 2006 the italian league winner was a league winner who got his titel wrapped in a present.

And the referees got their gifts from Juve in brown envelopes. Along with mobile phones from Moggi.

Inter is a club with no self-respect.

What colour's the sky on your planet?

thank god it is the only club i italy who is almost completly exists from foreigners.

Thank God they're staying true to their origins.

P.S. If you shake that chip off your shoulder you'll stop going round in circles and maybe move forward.

[eXistenZ]

And the referees got their gifts from Juve in brown envelopes. Along with mobile phones from Moggi.

Thank God they're staying true to their origins.

1) in a league where there has been frauded, there is no winner. the championship shouldn't be contributed to any club that season.
example:
its the last day of the season: juve and milan are ahead, but will be later on erased from the championship. Inter is 3rd with 1 point ahead on AS roma. Roma plays juve and inter let's say Empoli. Roma loses, because the ref had given 3 penaltys and 2 red cards, inter lose also, but they stay ahead. who should be champion? It's not because you erase 2 teams rom the table all the arranged matches are forgotten.

2) true to their origins? are you blind? Inter= italian club. any italian players in it except their second goalie and a hooligan who should be banned from football 5 years ago? no. Even their big new talent is half african.

waaruber menn nich spreken kann daaruber muss man schweigen. ( my german isn't that good)

[VonBlade]

4) Russia rising power undisputed - An obvious yes
If you mean it's becoming more prominent then yes, I would agree. It's not hard, with new found wealth, to raise the profile of a league long in the wilderness.

Unless you play FM, then it's impossible

[Paz-CCFC]

It is indead, like others mentioned, check the last 4 of each european cup over the last years and you will see al lot English clubs.

The Uefa Cup shows a very different story, however.

From the last 5 years, only two English teams (Newcastle and Middlesborough) have made the last four. The former got knocked out at that stage, the latter got hammered in the final.

In fact, in the last 24 years, only a single English team has managed to win this competition (Liverpool), after dropping down from the Champions League.

The co-efficients also show a differently. England have only bettered Spain in club European competition twice in the last five years and are only marginally ahead in the rankings.

Now, I'm not saying that England are terrible in Europe, but it's not the dominant powerhouse that people believe it to be.

[Beneamata]

1) in a league where there has been frauded, there is no winner. the championship shouldn't be contributed to any club that season.

So, because a club/s has cheated nobody has to be a winner? What was the point of the other 19 (or 18, or 17, or whatever) clubs participating?

example:
its the last day of the season: juve and milan are ahead, but will be later on erased from the championship. Inter is 3rd with 1 point ahead on AS roma. Roma plays juve and inter let's say Empoli. Roma loses, because the ref had given 3 penaltys and 2 red cards, inter lose also, but they stay ahead. who should be champion? It's not because you erase 2 teams rom the table all the arranged matches are forgotten.

Eh??

true to their origins? are you blind? Inter= italian club.

You don't know your Inter history but that's not a big problem. Have you never wondered why they're called Internazionale?

[eXistenZ]

You don't know your Inter history but that's not a big problem. Have you never wondered why they're called Internazionale?

i guess the example was too difficult for you.

So you gonna say to me that inter is not an italian club? strange, they play in an italian city, play in a italian league, have a italian licence. how international is that? just because you have a stupid name (which it is because a club name is almost always bound to it's city or region) you can say " oh **** those italians. we play in their country, and so on, but why should we do anything for the national team?" does the word "principles" rings a bell with you?
I think if you play on FM with a team tht consist with some own youth players, you are proud.

[SCIAG]

Twice or more, it's been said that Villa are sponsored for £1. They're not. They are actually paying Acorns. However, this cannot be put in FM, so they have the lowest sponsorship possible -£1.

[Beneamata]

i guess the example was too difficult for you.

I just didn't get any point to your exmple.

So you gonna say to me that inter is not an italian club? strange, they play in an italian city, play in a italian league, have a italian licence. how international is that? you can say " oh **** those italians. we play in their country, and so on, but why should we do anything for the national team?" does the word "principles" rings a bell with you?

Before posting vitriol please research what you're opinionating on.

just because you have a stupid name (which it is because a club name is almost always bound to it's city or region)

I guess there's lots of clubs with stupid names then. Meanwhile outside of kindergarden.......

I think if you play on FM with a team tht consist with some own youth players, you are proud.

Yes I do. And that's where I'll leave it my friend. Chill..........

[Svenc]

Just 2 examples clearly showing Bundesliga having slightly better average attendances.

Yup, those 18,000 being tossed around before are more like the average attendance of 2. Bundesliga. While 2. Bundesliga is a nice competition, don't get me wrong, It's a bit saddening to see that competing with the average attendance of the top-flights from Italy or France -- it's not like the numbers in these countries are dragged down by many a small club and small stadiums being in that league. A prolific club like Juventus has an average attendance of less than 30,000, and that has nought to do with the size of the stadium.

That said, I'm a bit surprised that the average attendance of the Premier League is that high, given the ever-growing ticket prices at hand.

[Aoede]

The F.I.G.C./Lega Calcio would differ - they would say Inter won the title and it was taken from dishonest Juve.

There is a commonly recited phrase regarding this issue - juventus won the title on the pitch. They didn't - they tried to win it in clandestine meetings and referees rooms.

Have you read the verdict?
All the allegations are complete ********.

[Themistofelis]

WOW lots of replies here

Jimbokav1971 Since all the others are matters of opinion i will only reply to 7 , what is already made clear is that base clubs will have to lose their most talented players at the age of 16 instead of the usual age of 19-20 ( there was already a case of a Roma youngster who got "stolen" by Man utd ) , also some French clubs "hide" their young players from first team football . What i dispute here is the ability of FIFA/UEFA to dictate roster policies on clubs , the whole idea of home growns vs foreigners is wrong .

jsolloso this depends on the active leagues , play a game with only Italy & Spain active , after 6-7 years non active leagues are almost gone ( 07 & 08 checked while running hands off games )

Svenc Italian league is boring, violence ridden , full of scandals ; not to mention political extremists recruiting children in the stands . On the other hand Bundesliga 2 is a game for the masses . Of course Germany as a country is boring and probably Germans have nothing better to do , Italy is a totally different case ....eh and Torino has more fans in the city than Juventus , most Juventus fans are located in the south .
In England looks like football is a game for the middle class , so their middle class must be really big .

[TeeWee]

The effect of the coming recession are hard to wrap your head around. On the one hand, the amount of money available to the big leagues will fall, but so will the money for the smaller leagues. Some here say that Russia will become top dog in, say, 5 years time. But then again, I'm hearing reports that the Russian wealth is drying up quickly with the financial crisis combined with (relatively speaking) falling prices for oil. I've even heard speculation that Abramovich will have to give up his toy when the going gets tough.

Who knows which country and which league will hurt most. Though likely it will be the big name clubs with the big history that will remain on top, with the gap to teams with a worse sponsorship proposition rapidly growing.

[Avelives]

the English are in financial decline.

Except of course that the big spending English clubs are not owned by English people, they are from all over including, Saudi Arabia, Russia and the USA many of whom are so rich they are all but immune to the financial crisis.

[homerjnick]

Your thread title question: "Why is the English league so strong in Europe? (In FM09)"

Your answer: "Because they are in real life and the game reflects that."

[hoppie00]

Look at the UEFA Cup last night, all the English clubs won bar Portsmouth who drew with AC Milan, and even then AC only just won with two moments of sheer brilliance from Ronnie n' Inzaghi. City beat Schalke easily away, Tottenham beat NEC Nijmegan away so i don't think it's unrealistic for English clubs to be pushing the latter stages of the competition. In the past English clubs have fallen away in my opinion due to the attritional nature of the Premier League especially as it enters the latter stages where clubs are fighting over league positions and not over what they view as essentially a pointless Cup competition. This year and from now on it will be different in my eyes as the increased squads of the UEFA Cup English teams will mean they will be able to rotate with more consistent results, plus, teams such as Tottenham, Manchester City and Aston Villa are gagging for success, it won't be long 'til we see an English UEFA Cup winner.

[Trevomac]

fair enough englands top 4 deserve to be doing well but when you see Bolton and Spurs winning UEFA cups you get worried

[Leaf_Fan_85]

OK in terms of Inter...
I understand their history, they broke away from Milan, yada yada yada, International team, whatever.

And you can say whatever, Juve won, Juve didn't, the fact remains Italy won the World Cup with an entire team based in their domestic league.

I just find it interesteing to note that Inter never were investigated. If anyone out there thinks clubs are pure and honest need to wake up. Clubs everywhere try to do what they can to win, whether it is try to influence referees, which I think is wrong and being a Juve fan, I agreed they deserved their fate and on top of that was glad to see the core of their team stay dsespite the scandal; or something that is somewhat legal, tampering players at other clubs to join them (see Cristiano Ronaldo).

The thing that I despise about Inter is their youth team is filled with a lot of youngsters that may play for the Italian national team, but none of them will stay because Inter wants to win right now with a bunch of over priced foreigners. I'm willing to put money on th eline that say, in two or three years when Inter continue to fail in their quest for the Champion's Legaue, Giraffe Boy (Ibra) will start to whine and complain he wants out, and some players will want to follow along. Their midfield isn't getting any younger and their back line is not the strongest ever. If they don't win the Champion's League now or next year, I don't see them doing well in a few years.

[x42bn6]

Yup, those 18,000 being tossed around before are more like the average attendance of 2. Bundesliga. While 2. Bundesliga is a nice competition, don't get me wrong, It's a bit saddening to see that competing with the average attendance of the top-flights from Italy or France -- it's not like the numbers in these countries are dragged down by many a small club and small stadiums being in that league. A prolific club like Juventus has an average attendance of less than 30,000, and that has nought to do with the size of the stadium.

That said, I'm a bit surprised that the average attendance of the Premier League is that high, given the ever-growing ticket prices at hand.

Actually, Juventus's stadium may have small attendances due to its size. The atmosphere at delle Alpi is awful due to the sheer size - this turns away any more potential fans. I think a much smaller stadium would attract more fans - although I suspect that the location at Turin poor anyway. However, a smaller delle Alpi would look a lot better, especially if they get rid of that infamous running track.

[ANDEHLSON]

fair enough englands top 4 deserve to be doing well but when you see Bolton and Spurs winning UEFA cups you get worried

There is nothing wrong with the Spurs winning... and why would Bolton be so wrong? Espanyol got to the final IRL and they are far from being a great team...

[Beneamata]

have you read the verdict?
All the allegations are complete ********.

that's where i'll leave it

1010101010101010

[Gauvner]

speaking with several Frenchmen i 've got the idea that they think of the game as something the immigrants play , something for the low classes , of course i can be wrong.

.

What ever french people you speak to, i would have a word as that sentence is very offensive.
But lower classes.
Hmm i seem to think that in the majority of countries there are much more of the populous that rest out side the bracket of upper class.

[Aoede]

1010101010101010

You should read up on it and see what you find. Everyone knows Inter are one of the biggest cheats in Italy.

[Maidel]

I wanted to go back to people question that English teams dont win the uefa cup. Well there is one thing that happens to lots of other countries, that doesnt happen to the English teams- they never get knocked out from the group stages and go into the Uefa cup this way.

This means that one of the BIG english teams doesnt end up in the competition.

Having said that - when you look a back at the rare occations when an english big team did end up outside of the champions league - 2000, 2001 there was an english runner up and an english winner.

[Kritik]

Well over the last 4 years how many times have English sides been in the champs league final the game is currently mirroring the strength of the premier league.

no, it's mirroring the strength of top 4 in England, the league is far from the best

[ANDEHLSON]

no, it's mirroring the strength of top 4 in England, the league is far from the best

Is there any league atm that is "the best" then? (with actual interest...)

[x42bn6]

I wanted to go back to people question that English teams dont win the uefa cup. Well there is one thing that happens to lots of other countries, that doesnt happen to the English teams- they never get knocked out from the group stages and go into the Uefa cup this way.

This means that one of the BIG english teams doesnt end up in the competition.

Having said that - when you look a back at the rare occations when an english big team did end up outside of the champions league - 2000, 2001 there was an english runner up and an english winner.

The English teams have been a bit unlucky these past few years. The main problem is that there's more fixtures in England with two Cups competed for - and a lot of squads that go to the UEFA Cup don't have big squads that can cope. Spurs this season are a bit of an exception, although against NEC, I think they had 11 players injured or ineligible.

Other examples are like Bolton, who never replaced Anelka and ended up going into the UEFA Cup with the threat of relegation. I think they put out a second-string side in a crucial UEFA Cup tie in order to focus on the Premiership. Everton are always a bit of a strange team - definitely good in the Premiership, but fairly hopeless in Europe.

While Spain has regulars in the UEFA Cup (Espanyol/Sevilla/Getafe), it's difficult to get a consistent set of teams in England - positions 4-10 are more often than not highly competitive. This season, it's going to get worse - with Spurs, Everton, Aston Villa, Manchester City and Portsmouth competing for the 5th place and in both Cups. There's very little room for consistent UEFA Cup appearances, something Espanyol get without too many problems. Consequently, teams can never really build for Europe without knowing if they can get there consistently.

[Svenc]

*Football* is a game for the masses. Maybe in some leagues it ain't anymore due to rising ticket prices, etc., but I doubt it that this affects anything but the absolute top flights -- nobody'd pay squid to go see a Wolverhampton - Swindon game (though it's a shame in many ways, mind you.)

Of course Germany as a country is boring and probably Germans have nothing better to do

Every single tiny spot is just as boring as the one next to it, it just depends how long you've been living there I guess.

[kopitelewis]

The major problem I see at the moment is the success of English clubs in the UEFA cup, since that just isn't happening. The Champions League though is fine, since all four of the big four in England have been regularly featured in at least the semi finals over the past few years.



I'd be very surprised if that idiocy ever got implemented, not only would it break EU employment laws, it would be very likely to cause some sort of major revolt from UEFA or at least the major clubs/leagues throughout Europe.

yeah i think the G14 or G13 whatever they are called will split from uefa if it goes ahead.

[Barkermush]

OMG So riduculous that Fm would make the English teams strong!! Why would they do that? Its not like it was an all English champions league final last season with 3 English teams in the qauters?

Even in the Uefa cup the English teams have been strong over last few years i.e Middlesboro , and Ac milan scraping a draw against supposdly mid table Protsmouth. Just face reality mate the English League teams are stronger these days!

[mlp071]

yeah i think the G14 or G13 whatever they are called will split from uefa if it goes ahead.

Highly unlikely, maybe EPL will , but i wouldn't see that as major loss for football overall.

[Joor]

..and Ac milan scraping a draw against supposdly mid table Portsmouth. Just face reality mate the English League teams are stronger these days!

A Milan team without a lot of first team players - they don't prioritize uefa high this year, thats why it was a poor performance..well except the last 15 min after Ronaldinho, seedorf and pato came on.

[ROSSONERILEGION]

A Milan team without a lot of first team players - they don't prioritize uefa high this year, thats why it was a poor performance..well except the last 15 min after Ronaldinho, seedorf and pato came on.

Anybody could have put 4+ past us with Dida in goal and Senderos in front of him.

A bunch of reserve rejects against a full strength Pompey team in a competition we've already qualified for, I mean honestly, really...............

[kiwityke]

I've always maintained that the biggest enemy of English football is not foreigners, but the English game itself. More specifically, it's the way we get our kids into it. Most successful nations focus on getting their kids working with the ball. They want them to learn to feel comfortable with it. But in England, right from the start, we're thrown into eleven-a-side matches on full size pitches and expected to "get stuck in". Very few players are going to develop technical ability with a start like that.

I totaly agree with this. I was once told to stop playing football and just get rid of it by one of my coaches!

[Beneamata]

yeah i think the G14 or G13 whatever they are called will split from uefa if it goes ahead.

G14 disbanded in February of this year.

The Milan team was a bit lightweight on Thursday. Emerson? - I'd forgotten all about him LOL.

[Wee Aja]

OP - "Why is the english league so strong in Europe?"

Answer - Because the English league is so strong in Europe.

[Paz-CCFC]

The effect of the coming recession are hard to wrap your head around. On the one hand, the amount of money available to the big leagues will fall, but so will the money for the smaller leagues. Some here say that Russia will become top dog in, say, 5 years time. But then again, I'm hearing reports that the Russian wealth is drying up quickly with the financial crisis combined with (relatively speaking) falling prices for oil. I've even heard speculation that Abramovich will have to give up his toy when the going gets tough.

Who knows which country and which league will hurt most. Though likely it will be the big name clubs with the big history that will remain on top, with the gap to teams with a worse sponsorship proposition rapidly growing.

I'd tend to disagree with that.

The bigger teams have racked up huge debts of hundreds of millions of pounds. Smaller teams, however, if they have debts, they'll be much much smaller. If a bank loaned €10M to Manchester United and €10k to Havant & Waterlooville, it's an easy guess to see which one they'll prioritise and which one they wouldn't be too unhappy about going down as bad debts.

Also, there's the ticket prices. The bigger teams have very expensive ticket prices and I feel they'll see a fall in attendance. To keep these attendances, they'll have to slash prices. Meanwhile, the smaller teams' ticket prices are relatively cheap anyway and even if they do cut prices, it won't be as much as the bigger teams. Also, they may see a rise in attendances, from people who used go to matches of bigger clubs, but can no longer afford it.

I wanted to go back to people question that English teams dont win the uefa cup. Well there is one thing that happens to lots of other countries, that doesnt happen to the English teams- they never get knocked out from the group stages and go into the Uefa cup this way.

This means that one of the BIG english teams doesnt end up in the competition.

Having said that - when you look a back at the rare occations when an english big team did end up outside of the champions league - 2000, 2001 there was an english runner up and an english winner.

Funnily enough, the last time (that I can remember, anyway) that an English team got knocked out in the group stages (Man Utd), they ended up finishing bottom of the group and out of Europe altogether. If they had been in the Uefa Cup, they'd probably have gotten far.

OMG So riduculous that Fm would make the English teams strong!! Why would they do that? Its not like it was an all English champions league final last season with 3 English teams in the qauters?

Even in the Uefa cup the English teams have been strong over last few years i.e Middlesboro , and Ac milan scraping a draw against supposdly mid table Protsmouth. Just face reality mate the English League teams are stronger these days!

I think you'll actually find that the English teams have had a poor return in this competition. One winner in the last 24 years. Even with Middlesborough as an example, they got hammered 4-0 in the final.

I think that the English teams overachieving in the Uefa Cup this season is showing the gulf between the "Big 4" in the Premier LEagie being reduced. I'd say that the English teams in the Uefa Cup will do well this season, but the ones in the Champions League will do worse than last season.

[suzerain]

OK, I am not a European, so that may bias my opinions. As an American expat living in China, I find the arguments on protectionism strange. It seems to me that if you're going to have the E.U., then don't fight it. If you're not, then don't.

Blatter's 6+5 rule just doesn't make sense for a bunch of countries that are trying to fuse together as one federation. Seems to me if the borders of trade aren't opened up, then what's the point of the E.U. in the first place?

It is true that Italians won the world cup with a squad full of Italian domestic leaguers. They also won the World Cup with a series of highly questionable refereeing decisions (e.g., game against Australia, anyone?), and could quite easily have lost it if the referees didn't give them a foul every time they fall down and cry when no one is near them. So, my point is, I'd say that the bit about players in domestic leagues is as much coincidence as anything else.

What I find strange is why the English press are the ones complaining about this. If you're complaining that young English players can't get to be world class because they lose training places in EPL youth academies to Africans, continental Europeans and others, then I have to ask: are they good enough? Surely if they were good enough, they wouldn't lose their places? Furthermore, why is it that players from other countries routinely move in order to find a good situation, and English players don't/can't?

My point is...maybe the Premier League is the cream of the crop at the moment. Fair enough. Why can't young English up-and-comers who aren't quite good enough go ply their trade elsewhere if they can't find a place in the EPL? I'm sure they could find great training facilities in France, Germany, Spain, etc. There are good second-tier leagues in the Netherlands, Greece, Turkey, Portugal, the USA, etc. where they could probably find starting places and make names for themselves...and come back to England when they can handle it.

It's really a dual-edged sword. The best league in the world is going to be the one that is the most open to players. No one country has a monopoly on great footballers; it's too much of a world game. So, if you want the best league, then you need to be open to the best players, regardless of where they come from. If you want an "OK" league, then close it down and make it majority English.

England's failure at the world level, IMO, has more to do with other things. Team tactics, the Gerrard/Lampard situation, team chemistry, the quality of England's goalkeepers. That last one is particularly interesting; I say that because in competitions like the World Cup, the best team doesn't necessarily win. Anything can happen in a single-game elimination tournament; it comes down to good bounces of the ball, moments of singular inspiration and so on. Can anyone here honestly say with a straight face that England has goalkeepers of the level of Buffon? Lehmann/Kahn (from a few years ago)? I don't think so...and one brilliant save from a goalkeeper is enough to keep you in a competition. I noticed this in 2002, when the USA went to the quarterfinals of the World Cup, basically because of one thing: Brad Friedel. Anyway at the moment Cappello has England firing on all cylinders; hopefully for you it'll stay that way.

Enough rambling, but I close with this. The world's economy is global now, whether you like it or not. Fighting against that with protectionism is a losing battle, and will only hurt these leagues in the long-term. Better for England (and everyone else) to figure out how to prosper in that environment. The country that does that is the one who will win World Cups in the future.

[eXistenZ]

OK, I am not a European, so that may bias my opinions. As an American expat living in China, I find the arguments on protectionism strange. It seems to me that if you're going to have the E.U., then don't fight it. If you're not, then don't.

Blatter's 6+5 rule just doesn't make sense for a bunch of countries that are trying to fuse together as one federation. Seems to me if the borders of trade aren't opened up, then what's the point of the E.U. in the first place?

It is true that Italians won the world cup with a squad full of Italian domestic leaguers. They also won the World Cup with a series of highly questionable refereeing decisions (e.g., game against Australia, anyone?), and could quite easily have lost it if the referees didn't give them a foul every time they fall down and cry when no one is near them. So, my point is, I'd say that the bit about players in domestic leagues is as much coincidence as anything else.

What I find strange is why the English press are the ones complaining about this. If you're complaining that young English players can't get to be world class because they lose training places in EPL youth academies to Africans, continental Europeans and others, then I have to ask: are they good enough? Surely if they were good enough, they wouldn't lose their places? Furthermore, why is it that players from other countries routinely move in order to find a good situation, and English players don't/can't?

My point is...maybe the Premier League is the cream of the crop at the moment. Fair enough. Why can't young English up-and-comers who aren't quite good enough go ply their trade elsewhere if they can't find a place in the EPL? I'm sure they could find great training facilities in France, Germany, Spain, etc. There are good second-tier leagues in the Netherlands, Greece, Turkey, Portugal, the USA, etc. where they could probably find starting places and make names for themselves...and come back to England when they can handle it.

It's really a dual-edged sword. The best league in the world is going to be the one that is the most open to players. No one country has a monopoly on great footballers; it's too much of a world game. So, if you want the best league, then you need to be open to the best players, regardless of where they come from. If you want an "OK" league, then close it down and make it majority English.

England's failure at the world level, IMO, has more to do with other things. Team tactics, the Gerrard/Lampard situation, team chemistry, the quality of England's goalkeepers. That last one is particularly interesting; I say that because in competitions like the World Cup, the best team doesn't necessarily win. Anything can happen in a single-game elimination tournament; it comes down to good bounces of the ball, moments of singular inspiration and so on. Can anyone here honestly say with a straight face that England has goalkeepers of the level of Buffon? Lehmann/Kahn (from a few years ago)? I don't think so...and one brilliant save from a goalkeeper is enough to keep you in a competition. I noticed this in 2002, when the USA went to the quarterfinals of the World Cup, basically because of one thing: Brad Friedel. Anyway at the moment Cappello has England firing on all cylinders; hopefully for you it'll stay that way.

Why would the english press be mad about it? maybe because the missed the EC?

Italy has wn the WC deserved. The mtch against australia was a group match so not as important as a quarter final. you have forgotten what S-korea got in 2002? they had three matches they should have lost.

You think english players are bad? england has about 3x the population of the netherlands, a country which has some great talents. like van der vaart, sneider, van nistelrooy. it's just logical that there are also good player in england.
English players are not bad. you are naive. african players are just cheap. and the most new owners of the english clubs are people who want to make money and don't know anything of football

[Indie]

Nobody seems to have mentioned in the 6+5 debate that Aston Villa are likely to be in the Champions League next season and have already shown they can send out a team-beating 11 man english squad.

I think the CL homegrown system should be adopted in the PL, though. As much as i hate Arsenal, He's done more for young football than any team since West Ham or Boca Juniors.

EDIT: @Above:

You think english players are bad? england has about 3x the population of the netherlands, a country which has some great talents. like van der vaart, sneider, van nistelrooy. it's just logical that there are also good player in england.
English players are not bad. you are naive. african players are just cheap. and the most new owners of the english clubs are people who want to make money and don't know anything of football

For starters, African players have the raw talent for the same reason brazillians do. Football is sometimes all they have, from a very early age. Every single day, and they have the enjoyment and passion. Anyone remember when Ronaldinho used to still ave that huge grin on his face everytime he skilled someone? He didn't even care who it was, He just did it for his own pleasure as that's what people from those kind of countries are like.

I know I'm stereotyping, but i doubt you'd find any Brazillian or African superstar that didn't come from slums. We just don't have that here. Look outside OUR windows and you just see idiot kids throwing bricks. Like i was saying about the Aston Villa set up a minute ago, There ARE great players playing in England. The Germany win demostrates that, i think, even though they missed three or four big names, we didn't have any bar Terry.

The Man City situation worries me, too. Look how great SWP and Ireland are playing. If Kaka comes in, that all ends.

[y0david6]

Its getting silly now. they were dominant in FM08, but come on, tone it down a little. Every season its arsenal, chelsea, man u or liverpool. I had to go into the editor and reduce the co-efficients just to make it a little bit of a challenge.

And its just the champions league its the UEFA cup too.

how did u edit it ?

[Svenc]

Italy has wn the WC deserved. The mtch against australia was a group match so not as important as a quarter final. y

No, it wasn't. Round of last 16. Regardless, talking about this match, Australia never looked like scoring, even against an Italy that was reduced to a squad of ten for practically the entire second half. A heart-breaking way to go out for sure, but let's not make this sound as if Italy were at the brink of defeat. Traditionally, their defense and organization in particular was mostly immense during Summer of 2006, and up-front they had the guys to score the goals needed to progress. Cannavaro was THE player of Germany 2006 by a billion miles, if you ask me.

[Kawee]

Italy may not look like they were about to lose, but they never got so close to losing as they did against the Aussies

Regarding the thread, I think the game is just trying to emulate real life. IRL, English clubs are dominating so that's what we see happening in FM. It's considerably easier to play an English club than it is to play Italian or Spanish clubs in general.

I think the problem is that the domination goes on too far. Not too long ago, there were three Italian sides in the semi finals. But in the game, English clubs can dominate for a whole decade especially if you're playing the English league.

[Jack Rudd]

Didn't the English clubs win seven European Cups in eight years a few decades ago? One country's league can dominate for a long time.

[Schotsmannetje]

Spain is one of them, Italy also (iirc). For the UK they (the non EU) needs a workpermit.

In Holland theire is no limit what so ever for fielding NON EU players.

Yes, then again NON EU players have a large minimum wage. So in Holland having NON EU players is limited, but in a more indirect way.

[DJ]

England, English clubs and English players have always been vastly overrated in CM/FM and always will be. Simply one of those facts of life. Not something that's ever going to change. Just get on with life

[Johnson993]

Why is there CL finals on saturdays.


UPDATE: I know why now.