What leagues would you like to see added in the future

[suited2007]

Now i know that Fm09 does not exist, but assusing that it will which leagues or division would you like them to include in the game.

My List as Follows

Wales Second Division
Argentina Third Division
Latvia
Faroe Islands or San Marino
Ghana
Cameroon
Canada
Nigeria

Perhaps the English Lower levels but they could be view only as well as the highland League


What do you think

[Bodis]

Norwegian 3rd division, that would be ace

[mdabat]

wow..i live in Canada and never knew there was a fooball league here, all i know is that Toronto FC plays in the MLS

I want to see the Saudi League since Saudi Arabia is a country thats been qualifying constantly to the world cup (since 1990) and im curious to know how their league is..

[Amaroq]

USA - NCAA.

[Darren_HR]

USL
Bosnian

[Oktober]

Welsh second and some North African ones... some more African would definately be good. Saudi Arabia's a good call, it'd be good to round out the world picture, although understandably its not easy getting researchers.

[xplosodotcom]

North Pole Super League

[JAStewart]

Shetland League. I'll do the research!

[xplosodotcom]

Definetley need to introduce the Shetland Orkney derby match!

[JAStewart]

Yeah but then there is no competition, we beat orkney nearly everytime! What was it last time... 4-0?

[Blue Lou]

Egypt, Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia

[Seagull_Tim]

The next couple of tiers down in the English leagues would be superb.

[memoi]

Originally posted by suited2007:
Now i know that Fm09 does not exist, but assusing that it will which leagues or division would you like them to include in the game.

My List as Follows

Wales Second Division
Argentina Third Division
Latvia
Faroe Islands or San Marino
Ghana
Cameroon
Canada
Nigeria

Perhaps the English Lower levels but they could be view only as well as the highland League


What do you think

yall should cut english 4th divisions etc...
and put USA NCAA and other more reputable leagues

[(FM FORUMS\') LEGEND]

a couple arabians would be great, the moroccan, egyptian, the japanese of course and some lower levels from many present nations.

[Jambo4eva]

Lithuanian league

[SiN8]

J-League would be the only one I would even consider playing in.

[clovis_kanda87]

Originally posted by memoi:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by suited2007:
Now i know that Fm09 does not exist, but assusing that it will which leagues or division would you like them to include in the game.

My List as Follows

Wales Second Division
Argentina Third Division
Latvia
Faroe Islands or San Marino
Ghana
Cameroon
Canada
Nigeria

Perhaps the English Lower levels but they could be view only as well as the highland League


What do you think

yall should cut english 4th divisions etc...
and put USA NCAA and other more reputable leagues </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Yes because Utah Mudskippers are a more worldwide will known club than say Bradford...or Brentford....seriously though....all joking aside...and that was meant as a joke, not a putdown, i would like to see:
The Unibond etc leagues - i.e the step below the Blue Square.
The Estonian leagues!
Some more African leagues...Egypt, Cameroon, Ghana, Nigeria?
Some more Central American leagues, Jamaica, Costa Rica?

[aaberdeenn]

Perhaps the English Lower levels but they could be view only as well as the highland League

I really like the sound of that.

I'm not much of a managing abroad person, so that would be perfect. I wouldn't mind if there would be no research done aswell, just to be able to see how the league is shaping up would be nice, even if it was all grey playing.

[xplosodotcom]

The FIFI world cup

Mon the Greenland

[aaberdeenn]

Originally posted by aaberdeenn:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Perhaps the English Lower levels but they could be view only as well as the highland League

I really like the sound of that.

I'm not much of a managing abroad person, so that would be perfect. I wouldn't mind if there would be no research done aswell, just to be able to see how the league is shaping up would be nice, even if it was all greys playing. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

[PMLF]

- American USL 1st Division
- Bolivia
- Bosnia
- Costa Rica
- Ecuador
- Egypt
- Malta
- Morocco
- Paraguay
- Venezuela

[Chas (Psyatika)]

All of them please!

I don't even care if Botswana isn't fully researched and all we have are stadia and club names (everything else random), i just want to be able to load up all of Asia and Africa and have a go!

[Chas (Psyatika)]

As an aside, back when i used to play the FIFA Manager series (when it was called TCM), we were able to create leagues and cups in the editor (we had to use one of several league templates, but the cups were fully customisable if you knew how to write the script).

Maybe one day FM will give us the option of making some crude leagues without having to trick the game and sacrifice an existing league.

[Chas (Psyatika)]

Alright, sorry, triple post.

TCM also had every country's data in a separate data file within the database folder, so it was much easier to import downloaded leagues without ruining your custom database. FM doesn't have this structure, so i suppose it would be difficult until they change their database structure (which would be for the better, by the way!).

[dafuge]

Would love to see more English leagues added, but can't see it happening.

[aenariel]

Originally posted by Chas (Psyatika):
All of them please!

I don't even care if Botswana isn't fully researched and all we have are stadia and club names (everything else random), i just want to be able to load up all of Asia and Africa and have a go!

[suited2007]

PMLF

Why Venezuela?

And Shetland island leauge has only 2 teams

[jetpacjoe]

Scottish Junior League. Hard as ****!

[Chas (Psyatika)]

Just think, one day our children will be playing a FM game with every nation playable, entire league structures all the way down to the amateurs in every nation, and their computers will be so fast that there isn't even an option to choose which leagues to load...they are all loaded automatically.

Those ********!

[Rocketpants]

Does the game REALLY need anymore leagues?
I would have thought concentrating on getting more detail into the game and making it more realistic would be more productive, then having a new league in Morroco.

Is it only me that feels this?

[Dappen]

Be good to see more African and South American leagues added. Perhaps New Zealand too?

[Bluenose_92]

Kazakh leagues tbh (h)

[PMLF]

Originally posted by suited2007:
PMLF

Why Venezuela?

And Shetland island leauge has only 2 teams

The Venezuelan League is pretty decent, and it's better than the likes of Wales, N. Ireland and Singapore.

[PMLF]

Originally posted by Rocketpants:
Does the game REALLY need anymore leagues?
I would have thought concentrating on getting more detail into the game and making it more realistic would be more productive, then having a new league in Morroco.

Is it only me that feels this?

I am sure you wouldn't think this way if your favorite league wasn't in the game already.

[Rocketpants]

PMLF - Should the game cater for individuals or the masses?

My favourite league would be the Wessex League at non league level, but I would rather see more time spent on other aspects of the game.

[Peter Cseke]

Originally posted by Rocketpants:
I would have thought concentrating on getting more detail into the game and making it more realistic would be more productive, then having a new league in Morroco.

What about someone in Morocco who bought FM but can't manage his own local team?

The Hungarian league was not always present in CM/FM (don't remember the exact year when it was added), and I was not happy about it when I was not able to manage Hungarian teams.

Even though I probably would never manage teams from all nations, but still sometimes I like to load all nations and have a career game where I spend 1-2 years then I go on to another team in another country.

[StandFree]

Originally posted by Blue Lou:
Egypt, Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia

Would love to see the number of African leagues expanded beyond just S.Africa. I often play games with a "regional" setting ie UK, Scandinavian or Southern Europe. I've never been tempted to start a game in S.Africa because thats the only playable league in the game.

Highland League would be cool as well!

[Peter Cseke]

Originally posted by Rocketpants:
PMLF - Should the game cater for individuals or the masses?

I agree it would cost too much to research all teams from all nations and I don't think there will ever be an FM version where all leagues would be available.

This is why:

- adding the possibility to add leagues with the editor
- adding the possibility to manage clubs from other nations, even with grey players

could offer some workaround for those who can't find their favourite league in the game.

[Rocketpants]

Peter Cseke - fair point, but by having a league in Morocco, will the time and effort in preparing this league, researching this league, establishing the leagues rules be time well spent, compared to improving the game overall, instead of a poor mans version of a data update each year!

[PMLF]

Originally posted by Rocketpants:
PMLF - Should the game cater for individuals or the masses?

My favourite league would be the Wessex League at non league level, but I would rather see more time spent on other aspects of the game.

The thread question is:

What leagues would you like to see added on to FM09

I would like to see those leagues added, regardless of what the "masses" want.

[Bosniak]

Bosnia & Herzegovina ! Definatly Bosnia ! .

[Rocketpants]

Ok PMLF - I dont want to see NO new leagues, sorry but I thought it pointless to start a new thread about why we shouldnt have any new leagues.

We can all want, but some may never get...

[Bodis]

to whoever said Jamaica....I'd definitely manage there

[grazza]

The scottish Juniour leagues woudl be good. Yes I know no promotion to the SFL but still would be a good challenge as now the 3 superleague winners and cup winners in the juniour get into the Scottish cup. Lucky Girvan get in it every year as they are full SFA members. Would eb good though and in fairness the top juniour teams are a match for 3rd div teams at least.

I would say though for other countries:
Egypt
Tunisia
Morroco
Cyprus
Nigeria

England has more than its fair share of teams unfortunatly leaves the games too unbalanced at times with their being so many english players in the db. Let other nations catch up first then fair enough look at England again though try and keep the game balanced.

[Giziar]

Not that my current PC can cope with it but one can always dream.

I would love to have:
3rd tier Argentia
2nd tier Wales
Proper representation of football on State level in Brazil (Including different levels at State level and proper qualifications for the Série C)
3rd tier Greece
3rd tier Czech Republic
Fully playable CFA in France

And if I may drift away for another dream:
First two tiers Paraguay
First tier Marocco
First tier Egypt
3rd tier China
3rd tier Romania
3rd tier Croatia
3rd tier Finland
3rd tier Iceland
First tier Bolivia

Yeah, I know, pretty unrealistic to expect something like that to be added to FM in the near Future. But as I said, one can always dream and with a bit of luck by the time I buy my new PC SI have added a few of the listed ones here.

[Giziar]

Forgot to add:
This post is brought to you by the "Bring back the edit funtion committee"

Wouldn't mind having:
First two tiers of Bosnia
First tier of Latvia
First tier of Iran

/me dreams on for a pretty long while

[Chas (Psyatika)]

Originally posted by Rocketpants:
Peter Cseke - fair point, but by having a league in Morocco, will the time and effort in preparing this league, researching this league, establishing the leagues rules be time well spent, compared to improving the game overall, instead of a poor mans version of a data update each year!

It would take perhaps 20-30 hours to (at least crudely) develop a new league in the game.

Assuming 8 hour workdays, 16 workdays per month (that's about 4 days per week), there are 576 hours of labour available for each SI employee (assuming each employee gets three months of not working on the game due to vacation, databases locked for disc production, etc).

I think at least a couple new leagues each year isn't too much to ask. Once the work is done, it'll be there forever since the structure of the game doesn't change drastically from year to year.

[Chas (Psyatika)]

And i'm sure SI gets this all the time with nothing to show for it, but i don't have to return to work until September 2008, so i spend all day either at the gym or playing FM. Tell me which programming language you need it in, and i'll make the damn leagues

[RonSigPi]

Have all the South American leagues. That way, you can play a full Copa Libertadores and others. There are only ten nations and FM08 already has 6, so adding 4 more to make it real would be good.

Aside from that, the NCAA would be great.

[suited2007]

Originally posted by aaberdeenn:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by aaberdeenn:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Perhaps the English Lower levels but they could be view only as well as the highland League

I really like the sound of that.

I'm not much of a managing abroad person, so that would be perfect. I wouldn't mind if there would be no research done aswell, just to be able to see how the league is shaping up would be nice, even if it was all greys playing. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Why rolleyes?

[suited2007]

Have the following leagues are view only

Brazil states second divisions
England Non-Leabgue
Highland League
Spain division 3
Italy Serie D

[munich 1860]

Morocco, Algeria, Egypt, Malta, Cyprus, Venezuela, El Salvador, Costa Rica, Bolivia, Saudi Arabia, Qatar and of course Japan if another brand wouldn't have the exclusive license for J-league

I think there are already enough English leagues in the game so it would be nicer to see leagues from new countries instead..

[Colorado]

Originally posted by munich 1860:
Morocco, Algeria, Egypt, Malta, Cyprus, Venezuela, El Salvador, Costa Rica, Bolivia, Saudi Arabia, Qatar and of course Japan if another brand wouldn't have the exclusive license for J-league

I think there are already enough English leagues in the game so it would be nicer to see leagues from new countries instead..

I think you've hit the nail on the head there mate. Those leagues would definately give a better balance to the FM 'World', where we're certainly lacking in Africa and the strong Asian leagues.

I think Europe is more than well represented with it's various leagues across the continent and the leagues you mention are exactly what I think should be added.

[munich 1860]

..and the leagues you mention are exactly what I think should be added

Thank you Colorado (maybe SI will call me now to work for their marketing side )
But I think there should be also the 2nd division for the leagues that have only a division in the game. You only can choose a couple of team anf if you get relegated you just have to resign.. and if you are sacked you don't have a great change to get another team (See Australia or India)

[AcidBurn]

I think we need the ability to makes leagues in the editor for certain countries i may be wrong but if teams from un playable leagues qualify for the Champions League qualifiers then why can't there be a create function in the editor to make league for these countries?

I would like to see more African league and more South American, Japan aswell as more lower league teams in Spain and Italy.

[Hershie]

Cyprus

[aaberdeenn]

Originally posted by suited2007:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by aaberdeenn:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by aaberdeenn:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Perhaps the English Lower levels but they could be view only as well as the highland League

I really like the sound of that.

I'm not much of a managing abroad person, so that would be perfect. I wouldn't mind if there would be no research done aswell, just to be able to see how the league is shaping up would be nice, even if it was all greys playing. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Why rolleyes? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I missed the 's' of greys at the end of the sentence.

[JAStewart]

Originally posted by suited2007:

And Shetland island leauge has only 2 teams

Wrong.

http://shetlopedia.com/Shetland_Football_Premier_League

[Stonedroses]

African leagues

I agree about the fact that research would be basic, but I'm sure once in the game sooner or later there will be a proper research

[narios]

The only league that i would want would be the Salvadoran league. Having the El Salvador league would be AWESOME, i would never ask for anything else

[Emmenaar]

Estonia
Andorra
Faroer
Malta
Cypress
2nd Welsh league

[Scab]

I only want J-League back, really.

[Alurny]

ng a FM game with every nation playable, entire league structures all the way down to the amateurs in every nation, and their computers will be s

You know the major problems with these new leagues being implemented will be research. If you think you can help why not email SI and find out if you can help in any way! I'd like to see more in Africa, Europe, Asia, South America and the Middle East. Thing is I know nothing about these places!

I am *sure* if SI could get the researchers for some of these leagues they could be implemented? An example of this would be non league in England. They need researchers all across the lower pyramid and there is a person to contact who are interested in helping with the research.

I would suggest those wanting a league such as Boznia and who have good knowledge of the league post in the Data forum to see if SI are interested. Just an idea guys!

[Alurny]

For more info look at the bottom of here for continental threads

[Jonfun1980]

Cyprus
Japan

[Rasgriz]

Bahrain
Qatar
Saudi league
and i will be the researcher for them

[astralusion]

To an extent I would agree that having NCAA teams (outside of the ones that compete in professional leagues BYU does i think for instance) but the fact that the license would probably be very expensive and you couldn't even use the real names of players on the teams (because they are amateurs), I feel like it would feel like it was lacking depth (Though i would like to take over a university team several years in the future when it's full of regens). Also i imagine it would be difficult to implement an entirely new league structure where you have to lose certain people every year to the MLS superdraft. still i'd like to see it.

[Tobie Chapman]

Victorian Premier League wouldn't mind play as Sth Melbourne or Altona

[MadBoy]

Lithuanian!!!

[Oncho Shaldzhiyan]

Originally posted by PMLF:
- American USL 1st Division
- Bolivia
- Bosnia
- Costa Rica
- Ecuador
- Egypt
- Malta
- Morocco
- Paraguay
- Venezuela

the same list as me only armenia i will add on it

[Demento]

Bosnia
USL 1st (and maybe 2nd) Division

[DS]

Originally posted by Tobie Chapman:
Victorian Premier League wouldn't mind play as Sth Melbourne or Altona

Or play as both and then have riots at your games.

I like the NCAA idea. Personally I'd like to see at least one more level of English leagues (I know the research would be difficult...)

More levels of leagues for big football countries, ie Brazil, Germany, etc.

[PMLF]

Originally posted by Oncho Shaldzhiyan:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by PMLF:
- American USL 1st Division
- Bolivia
- Bosnia
- Costa Rica
- Ecuador
- Egypt
- Malta
- Morocco
- Paraguay
- Venezuela

the same list as me only armenia i will add on it </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I certainly wouldn't mind seeing the Armenian League added too.

[Boskovic]

i think the rich qatar and kuwait leagues would be intresting

[follow the blind]

Ivory coast?

[Shaun Smith\'s Left Foot]

Italy Serie D
Wales Cymru Alliance/Macron League South Div 1
England Level 7 (3rd non league level playable)
Montenegrin League
Egyptian League
Morrocan League

[Jimbokav1971]

- England Level 7 (3rd non league level playable)
- Paraguay

Also, (and apologies if I dreamt this), but are Scotland introducing a relegaton from the 3rd Division ?

If they are, then whatever league is below that.

[sydfc4ever]

i'd love to see some more leagues in Africa (Egypt, Morocco, Ivory Coast etc) like said above, plus the Iran, Iraq, Saudi, UAE, Qatari, and various other middle eastern leagues. The J-League is a given, we'd all love that one back in. Plus i wouldn't mind the NZ league in the game, i'm tired of their national team being far too easy to beat with the Aussie team, in real life we can only thrash them 4-nil, not 12-nil like you can do by 2015. Wales deserves a 2nd division, also, I think some more smaller european nations would be good.

I think that would do us for at least 09!

[suited2007]

What about Malta that would be excellent

[Gundo]

Faroe islands.

Montenegró.

[alexeilh]

As said by me a number of times, the only one I really want is the U.A.E League. Hell, with Cocu and B. Kalou going over, it's defo. getting bigger.

Me and the 'bro made a crude re-make with the Editor over the Malaysian League. (On 07). I don't think i've ever enjoyed a league more.

Go on Al-Nasr! We love you.

[Oncho Shaldzhiyan]

And why we need more english leagues. we have more than enough tiers in england.. there are quality leagues missing in the list, so... first of all i´m agree that mission N1 must be to add the second league of these countries, in which we can play only the first division. and after that some quality leagues.. the south american 4 missing leagues are the most quality missing leagues for sure

[Younger Crayola]

Let's see....

If I'm being optimistic, I'd like all the European and South American leagues in. The two biggest continents on footballing terms would be great if fully represented.

Idealism aside, however, I'd swing for the following:

A number of lesser leagues including Cyprus, Malta and the Faroe Islands, to provide a fun counterpoint to the major leagues.

English expansion down a further two levels. One would be good, but two would be excellent and the two new levels together would introduce some fun concepts to play with, particularly with the general lack of contracted players and need for local talent.

Africa's biggest and best leagues. Having only one African nation in the game makes it less interesting as a proposition. Expanding it to include Egypt, Ghana, Libya, Tunisia etc is an important step.

Asia's quite good at the moment in the Far East and South East regions, but the middle east is virtually unrepresented. If we're to look at the top 14 nations according to the AFC, the East region in FM has Australia, China, Indonesia and South Korea (four of the seven, with Japan only absent due to licensing and one I'd love to see return) whilst the Central & West section ha only one - Saudi Arabia. Iran and Qatar would be good additions.

North America needs to see more depth in the US, even though it's not a true pyramid as most leagues have. The USL - both divisions - would be a lovely step and a nice place for anyone trying a US career to start, with the goal of landing an MLS job rather than getting one off the bat.

A few other leagues would be good to keep the competitive level of the continental competitions up - Costa Rica is a given, with Honduras, Trinidad & Tobago, Haiti and Jamaica good shouts.

That leaves us with Oceania. The New Zealand league would bring a bit of life to the now-dead confederation. Perhaps Fiji and Vanuatu would be next to consider.


Of course, all this is entirely subject to research, which is the main stumbling block when it comes to adding new leagues.

[Ter]

Also, (and apologies if I dreamt this), but are Scotland introducing a relegaton from the 3rd Division

No, but the new SFA Chief Exec wants it (and so do I)

Anyways, I would like to see

Scottish Highland League
Italian Serie D
San Marino
Malta
Faroe Islands

[emgergo]

- Playable French 4th tier
- Greek 3rd tier
- maybe one Baltic league
- I really hope for African leagues, but I know it's hard to research. The continent is way under-represented.
- Also Saudi and Iranian league

[Andrew K]

Before any leagues are added I'd like to see the link WSM Boxed Mac version of the patch fixed. Then I'd add Botswana's Elephant league.

[Mravac Kid]

I'm rooting for Croatian lower leagues.

[sydfc4ever]

A friend in Australia told me that the only team of note in New Zealand, play in the A-League (genius how they do it isn't it, take the first letter of your country's name and add it in front of league )

The NZ team in the A-League is sponsered by the Football Federation of Australia in an attempt to build the game over there. I'm actually against them playing in our comp and would love to see the money spent on building up thier own league (same for everyother damn comp for every other damn sport we've got they have to be in). NZ do actually have a league, teams like Team Wellington and Auckland City aren't that bad, they win the Oceanic Club Championship (not really an acomplishment though!).

With the naming the brain squad at the old FFA decided to just mimic all the other Asian nations in their naming schemes (Japan=J-League, Korea=K-League etc) I can't stand it personally. But the term Australian Football League is taken by another crappy sport played over here.

[CNGVR]

The most important leagues of football nations are in.. They're enough

Good job SI!

[assassin70]

Japan
USA Lower
Israel
More African Countries

[PMLF]

Originally posted by assassin70:
Japan
USA Lower
Israel
More African Countries

The Israeli league is in the game already.

[yugular]

Faroe Islands
Finnish 2nd div. (3rd tier)
African leagues

[MadBoy]

Lithuanian!!! cause we really deserve it

[The_Anecdotalist]

since everyone would like to have a go at managing their local club, I'd enjoy Malta to be included...

[felon]

Nigeria, Tunisia,Egypt and Morrocco.....its kind of a drag using only the south african league in africa...makes the caf champions league boring

[DMaster2]

Next year FM should add :

Italian Serie D;
J-League

also it would be nice to add :

Egyptian first division;
Malta first division;
Usa lower League

[Themistofelis]

Bhutan (to promote my new song "big in Bhutan")
Greenland (with "sunshine -45C" weather)
Rwanda
Kirghistan (With players on horses and a goat instead of a ball)


I would love to play in Cyprus and Malta too

[feedthegoat]

fwiw here's my view:-

English lower levels (Unibond, Ryman & BGB Southern all divisions)
Welsh Second Division (level below the Premier)
Scottish Highland, East of Scotland and South of Scotland Leagues
Add the rest of the missing European & South American Leagues (Paraguay, Bosnia & Faroes etc)
Nigeria
Cameroon
Egypt
Algeria
Ghana
Morocco
Saudi Arabia
Japan (If SI can get the license back!)
Thailand
UAE
New Zealand (As there are currently no leagues for Oceania)

I can fully understand that research may be difficult for some of the lower leagues but then most people sell those players on any way so maybe fill the lower league sides with regens and randomized players.

[MattJasina]

I wouldn't mind seeing:
Polish Third Divison
Italian Youth League
but most of all:
The leagues that are already there just expanded