AN IDEA: Removal of PA, Addition of "Learning Rate"

[Rickooko]

For long i have not been fond of the idea of PA, which limit how far a players can go once he was regened. Instead, i have come up with an idea of "Learning Rate" [LR]

In the new player developing system:

1. There will still be CA, which represent their current overall abilities.
2. There will be no PA, which means a players can go beyond CA 200, if that is the case.
3. There will be the addition of LR, the Learning Rate.

How does LR work:

- LR come with regen players in a similar fashion of PA, lets say a player start with a -10PA, instead, now he will have 10 LR.
- LR rate from 1 to 10, the higher, the faster a player can develop his CA under the same time period.
- A wonderkid, for example, might born with a LR of 10.


Alternation of LR during playing career:

The following events can add bonus to the LR of players: [In decimal, eg + 0.15 etc....]

- Good training facilities
- Good Coach
- Good Morale/Happiness
- Match Practice [The higher the competition level, the more LR bonus]
- Good Tutoring
- Special Events
- Good Professionalism, Work rate, Determination

The following events will deduct LR from players: [NOTE: LR can result in negative number, which means declining of abilities/CA]

- Aging [Slowing decrease the LR of a player, for old players, this penalty will bring the LR to negative number -> declining in CA]
- Poor training facilities
- Poor Coach
- Poor Morale/Happiness
- Lack of Match Practice
- Bad Tutoring
- Special Events
- Poor Professionalism, Work rate, Determination
- Complacency
- Injury


With the the introduction of LR and removal of PA, now the players can:

1. If you do everything right and with luck, an average talent player with LR 8 [with all those bonus applied], can developed as much as a player with LR 10.
2. In contrast, if everything goes wrong, even a wonderkid of LR 10 can be wasted [with all those penalties applied]
3. It is now possible for late career abilities boost if everything goes right. [eg. Lukas Toni]
4. It is now possible for early career abilities collapse if everything goes wrong. [eg. Veron]
5. Players abilities will now fluctuating a lot during their players career like in real life. [With PA this will never happened]
6. It is now possible to have truely legendary player developed in your own game, if he get all the lucks in development. There will be no limit to how far his CA can go.


This is the general concept, i think it have the potential if get developed properly.

[Rickooko]

To make the LR system more complicated........

There is something call "Maintaining Rate", which is:

1. For CA 190+, players need a LR of 9 to maintain it, and a LR 9+ to further develope the CA.

2. For CA 180+, players need a LR of 8 to maintain it, and a LR 8+ to further develope the CA.

3. For CA 170+, players need a LR of 7 to maintain it, and a LR 7+ to further develope the CA.

etc....

Which means a player really need a good combination of talent and lucks in their career in order to gain really high CA. Meanwhile, they will always have the chance to fail to maintain or even lost their abilities if not paying attention.

[damienroden]

this is pretty much what pa does anyway, they have a maximum ability, like we all do, and whether they reach that ability depends on the factors you listed, coaches,facilities etc.

[Rickooko]

But the CA of the players are never fluctuating like which does IRL.

Also, i think it is unrealistic once your scouts say a regen have little potential [So you know he has low PA], then his fade is already fixed at such a young age. A lot of things can happened during his career.

[prome]

this is pretty much what pa does anyway, they have a maximum ability, like we all do, and whether they reach that ability depends on the factors you listed, coaches,facilities etc.

I think that's quite narrowminded. I don't think there's maxium of how good one can become. I would rate some people as rare expections who are truly geniuses like Einstein but generally almost all people can achieve almost anything. At the moment I couldn't become next Ronaldinho though but were I 5 year old and with right circumstances and hard work (nothing but football) that indeed could happen, and I believe any people could be trained to be top of the given field if they are willing to pay the price.

I bargained with Life for a penny,
And Life would pay no more
However I begged at evening
When I counted my scanty store.

For Life is a just employer
He gives you what you ask,
But once you have a set the wages,
Why, you must bear the task.

I worked for a menial's hire
Only to learn, dismayed,
That any wage I had asked of Life,
Life would have willingly paid.

cheers.

[Nomis07]

I'm not a big fan of static PA, but LR seems overly complicated. Is LR not just non-static PA?

[Matthew Le God]

I'm not a big fan of static PA

Why whats wrong with it?

[glamdring]

Why whats wrong with it?

It's static.

[Matthew Le God]

It's static.

so why does that matter?

[Nomis07]

Why whats wrong with it?

Well I was hoping not to get into the discussion tbh, but I can't be rude and ignore this

IMO there should be grading within a players PA that is dependent on facilities, level of football played etc. So if a player is at Wigan he has a PA of 160, which he can achieve at Wigan no problem, but he then moves to a title challenger, becomes an International regular and has experience of continental football, IMO IRL a player would be able to improve further (but he would still be limited).

In other words;
Player A at Wigan reaches his PA of 160 playing in the lower half of the Premiership, he then moves to Chelsea is playing with better players, under a better manager, in Europe etc he will probably improve further. A static PA does not account for this, he will always be as good as he was when he left Wigan and he can't be better than that.

Not many people agree with me, but I have to make it clear I don't think every player can reach a PA of 200, i'm only talking about 5 or so PA points difference depending on level of football etc.

[Matthew Le God]

Well I was hoping not to get into the discussion tbh, but I can't be rude and ignore this

IMO there should be grading within a players PA that is dependent on facilities, level of football played etc. So if a player is at Wigan he has a PA of 160, which he can achieve at Wigan no problem, but he then moves to a title challenger, becomes an International regular and has experience of continental football, IMO IRL a player would be able to improve further (but he would still be limited).

In other words;
Player A at Wigan reaches his PA of 160 playing in the lower half of the Premiership, he then moves to Chelsea is playing with better players, under a better manager, in Europe etc he will probably improve further. A static PA does not account for this, he will always be as good as he was when he left Wigan and he can't be better than that.

Not many people agree with me, but I have to make it clear I don't think every player can reach a PA of 200, i'm only talking about 5 or so PA points difference depending on level of football etc.

Thats not how the system currently works!

Reseachers give PA ratings independent of which team they are currently at. It is their max potential ability under perfect conditions. Not everyone has the capability to be a superb player.

[aenariel]

Thats not how the system currently works!

Reseachers give PA ratings independent of which team they are currently at. It is their max potential ability under perfect conditions. Not everyone has the capability to be a superb player.

Exactly. PA = MAXIMUM ability under perfect conditions. That's why little players reach a CA of 170+, even with 170+ PAs.

The PA model is correct and I don't think this suggestion adds nothing to it.

[Mitja]

Well I was hoping not to get into the discussion tbh, but I can't be rude and ignore this

IMO there should be grading within a players PA that is dependent on facilities, level of football played etc. So if a player is at Wigan he has a PA of 160, which he can achieve at Wigan no problem, but he then moves to a title challenger, becomes an International regular and has experience of continental football, IMO IRL a player would be able to improve further (but he would still be limited).

In other words;
Player A at Wigan reaches his PA of 160 playing in the lower half of the Premiership, he then moves to Chelsea is playing with better players, under a better manager, in Europe etc he will probably improve further. A static PA does not account for this, he will always be as good as he was when he left Wigan and he can't be better than that.

Not many people agree with me, but I have to make it clear I don't think every player can reach a PA of 200, i'm only talking about 5 or so PA points difference depending on level of football etc.

that's it. but maybe a better example would be if player A came from league 1 side, or from let's say belgium 1st division (and I'm not saying these two leagues are equal).

[chopper99]

All that the game needs at the moment is to improve the player development model. PA is the most realistic way to represent potential, but at the minute the way a players CA increases/decreases is much too linear.

If this is improved so that more factors effect the rate that CA increases/decreases then this will be pretty much the same as what you're suggesting.

It should not be the case that any player can reach PA200+ if they get the right training etc, because this is definitely not the case in real life.

[Rickooko]

All that the game needs at the moment is to improve the player development model. PA is the most realistic way to represent potential, but at the minute the way a players CA increases/decreases is much too linear.

If this is improved so that more factors effect the rate that CA increases/decreases then this will be pretty much the same as what you're suggesting.

Yea, i totally agree there should be more factors effect the rate CA increases/decreases to make the game more realistic.

Although it seems that the "learning rate" is pretty much the same as PA, but i just think PA is somehow unrealistic as there should not be a "cap" in ability. (Although it will make things easier)

[chopper99]

Yea, i totally agree there should be more factors effect the rate CA increases/decreases to make the game more realistic.

Although it seems that the "learning rate" is pretty much the same as PA, but i just think PA is somehow unrealistic as there should not be a "cap" in ability. (Although it will make things easier)

Of course there should be a cap in ability. Look at it this way, if Man Utd take on 10 kids at 15 years old who all have roughly the same ability and they give these players the same training and the same amount of first team football will they all, 10 years later, be of identical ability? No, because everyone has a limit at how good they can be at something no matter how hard they try and what opportunities they're given.

This is PA, and in real life it is pretty much set by the time you're 15/16 (the time when you would enter the game on FM)

This whole argument about whether PA should be in the game or not is pointless anyway. This is a hidden thing that is not meant to be viewed. If it isn't viewed then there isn't a problem as you end up with some players becoming good, and some players getting to a point where they no longer improve, which is perfectly realistic. Even some players who start out in excellent youth setups are only ever destined for conference football.

[Mitja]

Of course there should be a cap in ability. Look at it this way, if Man Utd take on 10 kids at 15 years old who all have roughly the same ability and they give these players the same training and the same amount of first team football will they all, 10 years later, be of identical ability? No, because everyone has a limit at how good they can be at something no matter how hard they try and what opportunities they're given.

This is PA, and in real life it is pretty much set by the time you're 15/16 (the time when you would enter the game on FM)

This whole argument about whether PA should be in the game or not is pointless anyway. This is a hidden thing that is not meant to be viewed. If it isn't viewed then there isn't a problem as you end up with some players becoming good, and some players getting to a point where they no longer improve, which is perfectly realistic. Even some players who start out in excellent youth setups are only ever destined for conference football.

oh come on, you can come better than with this

[chopper99]

oh come on, you can come better than with this

Not you again

I promised myself I'd ignore all future CA/PA debates after spending weeks having some excellent discussions with you about it, but I guess I'm a sucker for punishment

[Wee Aja]

I think PA should be kept at a negative number, as is given in the DB, or to regens.
A wonderkid at the start of the game should maintain the value "-10" rather than his PA being defaulted to anywhere between 170-200.
That way, given the right conditions, he has the potential to be a superstar, provided he applies himself consistently and professionally throughout his career.

[Mitja]

I think PA should be kept at a negative number, as is given in the DB, or to regens.
A wonderkid at the start of the game should maintain the value "-10" rather than his PA being defaulted to anywhere between 170-200.
That way, given the right conditions, he has the potential to be a superstar, provided he applies himself consistently and professionally throughout his career.

but what makes a wonderkid better talent than others, is already his ability- CA at that age. that's why his potential is bigger. PA should be limited by CA. and not fixed.

[glamdring]

I'm not a fan of static PA, but any kind of growth curve that has no cap is always dangerous in an algorithm because things like that with lots of variables feeding into the growth rate are almost impossible to keep very tightly coontrolled - if even a small number of cases find some bizarre combination of input attributes that cause their growth to go through the roof it would be totally unacceptable so a cap is by far the easiest way to control this.

That said, there is obviously room for improvement in the development model that takes a player from his start CA towards that PA value and also for the potential for a moving PA in much the same way that Maximum attendance for a club is a cap, but only for the current foreseeable circumstances - if you take a club from the BSP to the Premiership that cap rises, but it is still a cap.

[seanydude]

i like it (y)

gives more emphasis on training

[Fernando Nano]

poor training facilities should not effect the player's potential ability.

[Matthew Le God]

poor training facilities should not effect the player's potential ability.

They don't effect the PA figure. They effect the likelyhood of a player reaching the PA.

[Nomis07]

Teddy Sheringham is a player who was at an age that most people thought he couldn't really improve much further, but his move to Man Utd IMO improved him beyond his perceived PA.

[Matthew Le God]

Teddy Sheringham is a player who was at an age that most people thought he couldn't really improve much further, but his move to Man Utd IMO improved him beyond his perceived PA.

Again, you have misunderstood how the PA system works

Reseachers give PA ratings independent of which team they are currently at. It is their max potential ability under perfect conditions. Not everyone has the capability to be a superb player.

[Nomis07]

Again, you have misunderstood how the PA system works

Reseachers give PA ratings independent of which team they are currently at. It is their max potential ability under perfect conditions. Not everyone has the capability to be a superb player.

No no, I understand that and that's fair enough, what I mean is that reaching that maximum should be under perfect conditions, what I mean is grading within PA dependent on conditions. ATM a player at Bayern Munich can achieve his maximum potential playing for them, IMO he would then improve further playing at a club like Barcelona. Of course there has to be a set PA, but I think there should be a grading system of how clsoe you get to that PA depending on the conditions.

I.e. This player has a PA of 180, he can achieve 160 at Spurs, 170 at Bayern Munich and reach the top 180 at Barcelona.

A player achieving a PA of 180 in a league standard similar to the Bundesliga, but it being impossible to improve on that when he moves to La Liga seems strange to me. Yes 180 should be his limit, but he should never achieve that in the Bundesliga.

[Matthew Le God]

No no, I understand that and that's fair enough, what I mean is that reaching that maximum should be under perfect conditions, what I mean is grading within PA dependent on conditions. ATM a player at Bayern Munich can achieve his maximum potential playing for them, IMO he would then improve further playing at a club like Barcelona. Of course there has to be a set PA, but I think there should be a grading system of how clsoe you get to that PA depending on the conditions.

I.e. This player has a PA of 180, he can achieve 160 at Spurs, 170 at Bayern Munich and reach the top 180 at Barcelona.

A player achieving a PA of 180 in a league standard similar to the Bundesliga, but it being impossible to improve on that when he moves to La Liga seems strange to me. Yes 180 should be his limit, but he should never achieve that in the Bundesliga.

You've lost me. What are you actually asking for in the game?

[Scoham]

No no, I understand that and that's fair enough, what I mean is that reaching that maximum should be under perfect conditions, what I mean is grading within PA dependent on conditions. ATM a player at Bayern Munich can achieve his maximum potential playing for them, IMO he would then improve further playing at a club like Barcelona. Of course there has to be a set PA, but I think there should be a grading system of how clsoe you get to that PA depending on the conditions.

I.e. This player has a PA of 180, he can achieve 160 at Spurs, 170 at Bayern Munich and reach the top 180 at Barcelona.

A player achieving a PA of 180 in a league standard similar to the Bundesliga, but it being impossible to improve on that when he moves to La Liga seems strange to me. Yes 180 should be his limit, but he should never achieve that in the Bundesliga.

The game should be capable of doing that, as the bigger clubs would have better coaches, better training facilities, a manager that looks after the players better etc.

Those PAs for each club would then have to change if the club improves its facilities, or every time it changes some of its coaching staff. Not really worth the trouble.

[chopper99]

No no, I understand that and that's fair enough, what I mean is that reaching that maximum should be under perfect conditions, what I mean is grading within PA dependent on conditions. ATM a player at Bayern Munich can achieve his maximum potential playing for them, IMO he would then improve further playing at a club like Barcelona. Of course there has to be a set PA, but I think there should be a grading system of how clsoe you get to that PA depending on the conditions.

I.e. This player has a PA of 180, he can achieve 160 at Spurs, 170 at Bayern Munich and reach the top 180 at Barcelona.

A player achieving a PA of 180 in a league standard similar to the Bundesliga, but it being impossible to improve on that when he moves to La Liga seems strange to me. Yes 180 should be his limit, but he should never achieve that in the Bundesliga.

For once I disagree with you Nomis

To me what you're asking for is what I want, a change to the development model to make it less static. However, this doesn't require any change to how PA works, it just requires more factors to have a more pronounced impact on a players CA. Basically CA should be a lot more prone to go up and down depending on the things you mention such as quality of club, league, training facilities etc.

But I still maintain that every player should have a set limit to how good they can be and this should remain static, only CA should change.

[Mitja]

For once I disagree with you Nomis

To me what you're asking for is what I want, a change to the development model to make it less static. However, this doesn't require any change to how PA works, it just requires more factors to have a more pronounced impact on a players CA. Basically CA should be a lot more prone to go up and down depending on the things you mention such as quality of club, league, training facilities etc.

But I still maintain that every player should have a set limit to how good they can be and this should remain static, only CA should change.

this is a great point...I would like that.

but what do you think about 16 y.o. who have just a little room to reach their PA? isn't that strange...especially if they come from top football academies?

[glamdring]

I don't like static PA because I think the idea that you have a set potential ability that you can never exceed before you even kick a football is rubbish.

[Matthew Le God]

I don't like static PA because I think the idea that you have a set potential ability that you can never exceed before you even kick a football is rubbish.

Not everyone has the genetic makeup to become a world superstar and so not everyone has the same potential

No matter what training I have at what team, under what manager I would never be as good as Cristiano Ronaldo and thus if I'm in the game I would have a potential much much much lower than his.

[glamdring]

Not everyone has the genetic makeup to become a world superstar and so not everyone has the same potential

No matter what training I have at what team, under what manager I would never be as good as Cristiano Ronaldo and thus if I'm in the game I would have a potential much much much lower than his.

Obviously, but determining what that potential is the moment someone comes out of the youth system and it remaining at that level forever just seems like a bad way of doing things.

Some people can achieve things (not being world class obviously, but a level above what one might expect) through sheer hard work whereas someone else of equal seeming potential talent at the age of 14 might be a lazy sod who fails to go on to achieve anything.

Sure that brings in the progression towards PA again, but they are both tied together.

[damienroden]

I don't like static PA because I think the idea that you have a set potential ability that you can never exceed before you even kick a football is rubbish.

everyone has a potential ability, no matter how much training i do there will at some point be a cieling i hit where i can improve no more, same with anyone realy.

[Mitja]

everyone has a potential ability, no matter how much training i do there will at some point be a cieling i hit where i can improve no more, same with anyone realy.

but can you actually say where is your limit or how far can you develop? of course everyone has a limited potential ability. but it is influenced by many many factors and you cannot predict it accuratly.

[chopper99]

I don't like static PA because I think the idea that you have a set potential ability that you can never exceed before you even kick a football is rubbish.

Personally I think this is the most realistic way of doing it. In my opinion your potential at anything is a direct result of two things; genetics and childhood experiences. So genetically someone might have a talent for music. But if they are not encouraged as a child this may go un-noticed and undeveloped. By the time they're 16 there potential for musical talent will be pretty much set. If they start practicing then, due to their genetics and the way they were brought up, there will be a certain ability they can reach and not exceed no matter how hard they try. They may only reach this level of ability by being coached by the best music teacher etc, but that's CA again.

The same can be said for footballers. By the time they reach 15/16 (the age they enter the game) their potential is set by everything that has gone before and cannot be changed. Only their ability to reach that potential now matters.

[karan316]

Or his PA was always high enough - the potential was always there. But there was a large enough gap between CA and PA, and that gap got bridged once Teddy moved to United.

The problem with having a variable PA, or a "learning rate" as this thread terms it, is that it will just further the divide between bigger and smaller clubs. For example, consider someone like Paulo Ferreira. Chelsea bought him, gave him top training, a lot of first team action, etc. In a variable PA system, all the factors exist for Ferreira to push his PA and become a truly world class player. However, what happened in real life? He did not develop his game and after two years of first team football he lost his place in the Chelsea line-up. Maybe he had already exhausted his ability before moving to Chelsea, that was as good as he got? Same thing happened with Asier del Horno.

[Nomis07]

I think i've confused everyone, and probably even myself

What i'm asking for, isn't a change to PA per se, it's a limit on the chances a player has achieving PA. The static PA would remain and the player at the top of his game with everything going well would have a PA of 180, but I don't think a player should be able to reach that PA playing for Bayern Munich.

Player A has a PA of 180, he starts out at Spurs. Now IMO the best he could hope for CA wise at Spurs is 160 (unless of course Spurs improve a hell f a lot), so his PA remains at 180, but because of his current conditions he cannot achieve more than 160.

He then moves to Bayern Munich, where the conditions are better than that of Spurs, so his CA can go further, but he still shouldn't be able to reach his ultimate PA, there is a cap at 170 because of the conditions.

Then he ends up at Barca, where everything is perfect and finally he can achieve his full potential.

The PA score remains the same throughout, but his ability to achieve anything close to it is more dependent on conditions than it currently is. In other words PA isn't variable, his overall PA is 180, but the best he can hope for at Spurs is 160.

[Matthew Le God]

I think i've confused everyone, and probably even myself

What i'm asking for, isn't a change to PA per se, it's a limit on the chances a player has achieving PA. The static PA would remain and the player at the top of his game with everything going well would have a PA of 180, but I don't think a player should be able to reach that PA playing for Bayern Munich.

Player A has a PA of 180, he starts out at Spurs. Now IMO the best he could hope for CA wise at Spurs is 160 (unless of course Spurs improve a hell f a lot), so his PA remains at 180, but because of his current conditions he cannot achieve more than 160.

He then moves to Bayern Munich, where the conditions are better than that of Spurs, so his CA can go further, but he still shouldn't be able to reach his ultimate PA, there is a cap at 170 because of the conditions.

Then he ends up at Barca, where everything is perfect and finally he can achieve his full potential.

The PA score remains the same throughout, but his ability to achieve anything close to it is more dependent on conditions than it currently is. In other words PA isn't variable, his overall PA is 180, but the best he can hope for at Spurs is 160.

Read what Scoham said a few posts back

[Mitja]

I think i've confused everyone, and probably even myself

What i'm asking for, isn't a change to PA per se, it's a limit on the chances a player has achieving PA. The static PA would remain and the player at the top of his game with everything going well would have a PA of 180, but I don't think a player should be able to reach that PA playing for Bayern Munich.

Player A has a PA of 180, he starts out at Spurs. Now IMO the best he could hope for CA wise at Spurs is 160 (unless of course Spurs improve a hell f a lot), so his PA remains at 180, but because of his current conditions he cannot achieve more than 160.

He then moves to Bayern Munich, where the conditions are better than that of Spurs, so his CA can go further, but he still shouldn't be able to reach his ultimate PA, there is a cap at 170 because of the conditions.

Then he ends up at Barca, where everything is perfect and finally he can achieve his full potential.

The PA score remains the same throughout, but his ability to achieve anything close to it is more dependent on conditions than it currently is. In other words PA isn't variable, his overall PA is 180, but the best he can hope for at Spurs is 160.

I get your point but I think it's too simplified, I mean why couldn't that player reach his full potential at spurs or bayern? that's too big difference, you're talking about top clubs. your example should be more like divison 1 - premierleague.

I hope you get my point.

[Nomis07]

I get your point but I think it's too simplified, I mean why couldn't that player reach his full potential at spurs or bayern? that's too big difference, you're talking about top clubs. your example should be more like divison 1 - premierleague.

I hope you get my point.

Even the 10 points is a bit too high IMO, I was using the examples and scores for effect rather than suggesting it should be the case for those clubs.

[shefki2008]

I was playing FM08 last night and i noticed something. When the game is processing, it shows tips i.e. a goalkeeper coach trains the youth, reserves and the first team keepers etc etc. Well, i noticed this one for the first time and i was rather disappointed. It said, Players aged 24 and over will not see a dramatic improvement in their stats...... (there was more but i have forgot). That is telling me that although a player aged 24 might have a CA of 170 and his PA might be 192, his dribbling, passing, tackling etc will not get much higher. Surely this is wrong? A player aged 29 can get better at free kicks or corner taking if he trains at it more often. Anywhoo......erm c ya.

[ginner]

I think the PA is probably the easiest way for the AI to understand and measure in the game.

But from what you are suggesting or from my understanding you are suggesting most of the things the PA works to.

[auto98uk]

I don't get the people who don't think PA should be static - everyone has a maximum ability (PA) which can't be exceeded (if you do exceed it, you worked it out wrongly in the first place)

[gonzález]

Haven't read all the posts, but I'd just like to say I really like Rickooko's idea of LR. Well thought out and seems more realistic, as well as giving us the chance, as you said, to get a really outstanding player if everything goes right. It also enables the unknown; you never know how good your wonderkid will turn out, whereas if you know the PA of a player it's already limited and there's nothing you can do to go beyond that, which is quite demoralising once you know your player can't improve any further.

[Terry85]

There are too many threads like this.

I think the problem is the way the CA is spread. If I train my player in a certain schedule directed toward him being better at shooting (for example), I would expect his shooting to rise quicker and higher than the rest of his attributes as that is what I am TRAINING him to be better at. For example if all his stats were 10 I would expect everything to rise by 1 and his shooting to rise by 3. Taking up the proper amount of CA. Yet this does not happen on my games. I rarely see anyone improve much at all.

[Mitja]

There are too many threads like this.

I think the problem is the way the CA is spread. If I train my player in a certain schedule directed toward him being better at shooting (for example), I would expect his shooting to rise quicker and higher than the rest of his attributes as that is what I am TRAINING him to be better at. For example if all his stats were 10 I would expect everything to rise by 1 and his shooting to rise by 3. Taking up the proper amount of CA. Yet this does not happen on my games. I rarely see anyone improve much at all.

it's your tactics.

[Terry85]

it's your tactics.

I bloody knew it!

[Nomis07]

Now you know why I didn't want to get involved in this debate I don't even know if anyone agreed with me, but i'll assume I was wrong

[x42bn6]

I think the CA/PA simply makes the game easier for SI to program - it would be difficult to make decisions based upon custom metrics and they would have to project a player's potential growth (imagine Messi at 14 - SI would have to figure out how to code Messi into the database and then find a way of discovering, "Yes, he's going to become one of, if not the, best in the world").

In real-life, though, when we say X has potential, we're really saying that X already is good for his age, and therefore will be very good in the future if he keeps improving. There are multiple reasons why players never reach the top clubs (not "potential level") but nothing to do with a ceiling. You'd've thought Luca Toni would have a low PA at 26, for example - but then he's a late-bloomer and now a good striker for Italy and Bayern.

It's why I think the PA model is flawed. Because we measure potential based on current ability, it makes no sense to have a ceiling.

So why do players fail to make the grade?

~ Not good enough - the primary reason. Nothing to do with PA. It's to do with CA. If a player is 20/200 when he arrives in your Under-18s team, you throw him out based on his CA; you don't keep him because of his PA.
~ Poor attitude - doesn't train well (nothing to do with PA), picks up cards faster than Materazzi (nothing to do with PA), lacks determination/work rate/temper/composure/ambition (nothing to do with PA), etc. Accurately represented in the game somewhat - lack of ambition and determination does separate the best youngsters from the good ones.
~ Wrong club - Any central midfielder coming through Chelsea's academy will struggle at the moment because of the sheer number of central midfielders they have at the club. Nothing to do with PA. They're not going to wait for 5 years before the midfielders start to deteriorate - even if the youngsters' PAs are 200, they're going to go, full-stop.
~ Wrong career choice - related to the above, but some players do make some really stupid career choices and set their careers back several years.

About academies: True, Manchester United, Chelsea, Milan and even the touted "best academy in the world" (Ajax, Arsenal, etc.) pull out rubbish players most of the time, such is the quality of the teams. Most players will end up in lesser leagues and some will go on eventually to reach the top tier ("reaching their potential"? Or simply "making good career choices and playing well"?). Arsenal fans may dislike this but what has happened to Graham Stack, Stathis Tavlaridis and Quincy Owusu-Abeyie? Even Arsenal's academy produces dunces every once in a while. And I'd hazard a guess that it's only Wenger who's keeping the likes of Merida and Gibbs at the club - in most clubs, they would be on loan or sold by now.

Conversely, it's possible to produce excellent, top-tier players in lower leagues. The number of players in the Italy, Spain and England squads having youth careers at clubs lower than the top-tier is quite large. However, at the moment, it's impossible for Serie B teams to produce eventual world-beaters when in reality it's possible. Some might scoff at the possibility of a Serie B player who's a 50/200 to eventually become world-class but it's certainly possible.

I'll just take an example - one of my youngsters arrived in my team with CA 89 at 16, which is very good. However, his PA is 122 - so apparently, no matter what I do, he's only going to be good enough for Serie B. His good attributes for his age mean that it's likely I could give him first-team appearances as substitutes in lower-games but even if I devote all my resources into improving him, he's suddenly going to hit 122 and stop. No, that's not right. He might fail because he might suddenly demand a bad career move and I'll let him go, or he might fail due to a big injury, but he doesn't have a ceiling potential from the start. He makes that ceiling for himself based on his attitude, ability and career choices (as well as luck).

I personally would like to see the system scrapped somewhat. I'd like to see a much, much larger variation in starting "abilities" as opposed to CAs for players across the globe, where reputation and facilities take only a very small account. I'd like to see equivalent-to-CA 100 players appear in Championship sides (like Aaron Ramsey, I guess) and perhaps every 5 years on average a Messi or Ronaldo appear. But these players don't have preset ceilings for potential. By all means, Messi could have had the worst attitude in the world and he would have ended up with a career like Anelka's, or he could have had a terrible attitude anyway and still managed to hit the heights he has today. But that's not decided from his career at 16 years old - that's decided as he goes along.

[Neb]

I think the CA/PA simply makes the game easier for SI to program - it would be difficult to make decisions based upon custom metrics and they would have to project a player's potential growth (imagine Messi at 14 - SI would have to figure out how to code Messi into the database and then find a way of discovering, "Yes, he's going to become one of, if not the, best in the world")...........etc

Thats spot on. Completely my interpretation of a) why its like it currently it b) how it should be implemented

Turning real life into a perfect mathematical model is a nightmare, nigh on impossible. The CA/PA system has worked, but I feel its a bit simple and could do with being updated.

most of whats needed is currently in the game, but I think the AI relys too much on PA to make decisions. It should see the CA, the rate of improvement and from that work out whether the player will be any good. Good mental stats will ensure the player develops more, for longer. but the most important factor is how good he is as he enters the game. It would make it more likely to get really skillful young players that don't have the right attitude, playing in the higher leagues (Joey Barton and the like) only there by the virtue that they entered the game as good players, not because the have the right mental attributes. Also the players that start off as poor players, but with the right mental attributes to work their way up. As long as the game rates a players 'potential' as CA + (improvement x years left to develop) = 'PA' then if a young players got a good base CA but not the right attitude, is unhappy, not playing, dislikes the manger, injured, etc. then the rate of improvement is slow and the player seems to have no 'potential'. he might be free transferred and picked up by another club who reverses his fortunes...

Think shearer being released by newcastle when he was 16, picked up by southampton and never looked back, that kind of thing. Also the opposite is true, a player playing very very well, improving lots being bought by a bigger team but never seeming to meet his 'potential'...happens all the time, his base skill stays the same, but he doesn't settle so the improvement stops suddenly hes got no 'potential' and deemed a failure (francis jeffers for example...)

The attribute distribution needs reworked as well, but if you remove the 'PA' ceiling you do remove some of the issues with it. The two footed issue for example, that the second foot skill limits the overall skill due to the PA limit.

It would also improve scouting, scouts shouldn't look at a fixed PA and be able to tell if that player has potential, he should see the CA and the age and make a quick judgement. but in depth scouting would take months to complete as in real life. track the CA improvement and be able to say that with the 4 years of improvement left, the player will be a class act, or not as the case maybe. Thats kind of how it works in real life. a scout doesn't see a player play a match and know they'll be world class player, they see a good youth player who has time on his side to be class. but the scout would track the progress and report back that due to a lack of drive the player isn't progressing as hoped... again, it sounds like real life!

Apologies for the ramble!

[André from Göteborg]

Spot on. that was exactly what i was trying to say with my other thread !

Well done

Just don't forget one of the major factors.. Luck

[Wayne\'o]

Niel melloer scored a fabolous goal for Liverpool against Arsenal. but he never improved as a player playing in Liverpool 1st team and training with the likes of gerrard. now hes an average to good player in the championship with Preston.. cant see him ever becoming the next dean Ashton etc. his PA means he will never be a world class football how ever much he trains..

[x42bn6]

Niel melloer scored a fabolous goal for Liverpool against Arsenal. but he never improved as a player playing in Liverpool 1st team and training with the likes of gerrard. now hes an average to good player in the championship with Preston.. cant see him ever becoming the next dean Ashton etc. his PA means he will never be a world class football how ever much he trains..

I think Mellor's a bad example. He and Sinama-Pongolle (and perhaps Le Tallec) "broke" into the first-team when Liverpool had a billion injured strikers - they didn't have much choice, really. He didn't make it because he didn't have a high PA - he didn't make it because he was a Reserves-quality striker (and if you look at the state of the England Reserve League, that's not a complement).

The fact he found a Championship club so quickly is testament to the training he did get at Liverpool (same argument applies to Sinama-Pongolle). If he was a bit better or perhaps with a bit of luck, he might have been able to improve enough at Preston to be able to return to the Premiership, or, like Anelka, go one step further and eventually return to one of the best teams in the world. Unfortunately, it turns out he simply wasn't good enough.

[SCIAG]

Graeme Stack signed for Reading and won promotion to the PL. After a few months they loaned him to Leeds (I think) but he was second choice. He's now at Plymouth.

Quincy is on loan at Birmingham, who are second in the Championship.

And Gibbs has been on loan...

[x42bn6]

Graeme Stack signed for Reading and won promotion to the PL. After a few months they loaned him to Leeds (I think) but he was second choice. He's now at Plymouth.

Quincy is on loan at Birmingham, who are second in the Championship.

And Gibbs has been on loan...

I know, but hardly the "Arsenal don't produce rubbish" sort of thing, which was the point I was trying to make.

With Ajax, for example, it's a bit silly to assume every striker in their Under-15s will be the next Huntelaar. There might be a Huntelaar in there. There also might be a Voronin-sort of player, or even worse. And there is a slight bias towards mediocre players, sadly.

[Neji]

There is one major confusion people are making in this thread. The PA system is different to the development system.

All I've seen is people suggesting that the development model needs to be changed. No one will ever achieve past their potential. Fact. Whether they reach it should be based on several things like Nomis pointed out BUT that doesn't have anything to do with the PA. I would love to see a major overhaul in the way players develop but there is nothing wrong with PA.

[Neb]

There is one major confusion people are making in this thread. The PA system is different to the development system.

All I've seen is people suggesting that the development model needs to be changed. No one will ever achieve past their potential. Fact. Whether they reach it should be based on several things like Nomis pointed out BUT that doesn't have anything to do with the PA. I would love to see a major overhaul in the way players develop but there is nothing wrong with PA.

No!

What we are talking about is how the peak CA (what you call potential) is defined. It shouldn't be a guess by a researcher, it should be defined on the CA and mental atributes. The player will still hit a limit, but that limit would be defined by the development model, not a guestimate at the start of the game.

So a player with 100 CA at 18 could hit 110 or could hit 170 if his attitude to training, is nutured by the coach at a young age. for example.

I can't think of any player that should hit CA=200, there's only so much development time in the game, normally between the ages of 15 - 22, sometimes sooner sometimes later. so a player of starting CA of 1 will never get to much more than 120 even if everything is perfect (which it never would be, as it never is in real life). so the scout wouldn't ever think this fella had potential.

but if he was to start at CA of 100 at age 16, thats a different matter. but he could peak at 101 if he was never played but could hit 140 if things went well, 160 if things went very well. maybe even 180 if he was very very lucky. but he might go up to 140 quickly, then fall out of favour at the club and stay there for the majority of his development meaning he'd never get to 160. he might even rot in chelsea's reserves for a season or two and drop back to 110 when hes picked up by sunderland and rises to 150 (again never as high as it could have been had he had better development)

My point is that his maximum CA is undefinable at the start of the game, it all depends on what happens to him during the first crucial few years of development....

[Neji]

The player will still hit a limit, but that limit would be defined by the development model, not a guestimate at the start of the game.

So why not give every player a PA of 200?

[Neb]

So why not give every player a PA of 200?

If potential is the best a player can ever be and no one ever has the perfect development, it stands to reason that no one should meet their PA in the game.

If no one is meeting it, why have it?? if a players development is halted due to him effectively running out of time to develop, no player would get to PA of 200,

If a player with perfect mental stats, perfect training, perfect experience, can only improve by 100 points during his career, if he starts off with a CA of 50 he'll get to 150 and he's never going to be world class. If his CA is 50, his mental stats would be rubbish anyway, further preventing him becoming world class anyway...

It would mean that his PA (as defined as the best a player can be) is self regulating, purely dependant on his starting ability and his rate of improvement, which is decided by his training (Some of which would be down to the players mental stats) and his experience.

[André from Göteborg]

Like i said in the other thread, has a man ever in the history of mankind got anywhere near his potential at anything? There is no need for a PA since no man ever will get anywhere near that level. It it much better to have a "learning rate" wich changes over time. Then training, managers encouragement, injurys and luck will have the power when it come to player development. Just like IRL.

[Mitja]

it looks like giving PA 200 to every player but it's not the same. imagine the scout reports then...

[Neji]

it looks like giving PA 200 to every player but it's not the same. imagine the scout reports then...

I know it's not the same thing being asked for but it does the exact same job.

[x42bn6]

Well PA 200 might not be enough as theoretically the perfect player could have 20 in all areas, which is PA 256, right?

But it's a "solution" - in the sense that by having no PA we're giving each player a PA of infinity.

It's just that players will develop slower than others, and only a few will become world-class. But every player can be world-class if they had the correct attitude and played in Manchester United's first-team all the time, and a bit of luck.

Nobody can predict with absolute accuracy the peak of a player's ability simply because there are too many variables involved. A ceiling's a simple but naive solution.

[Rasgriz]

this is a great idea better than PA and it reflect real life. also training will have huge effect now. But they just now perfected the regent players if they introduced new feature it will be bugged

[Bongo-Bongo]

The learning rate idea would be fine if the youngsters coming into the game were around 8-11 years old. There is still an awful lot of work for youngsters at this age to do, and it's incredibly difficult to guage which one have what it takes, hence why some clubs take on upwards of 30 players around the age of 9 each year. The problem is though, in FM, the players coming through are aged 15-16. At this stage, the players have arguably gone through what is the most important part of their development as a footballer. By this stage, the vast majority of the players who started with them are no longer involved in football as it became clear to the club that they just didn't have what it takes.

Whilst, obviously, it's still impossible to tell just exactly how good a player could become, it becomes much clearer. Any half decent coach could tell you a player that has the makings of a star and one who can only hope for playing at the lower levels. Thats not to say that the coach will know whether or not the player can will get to that level, but he will generally be able to tell the more promising ones from the less promising ones (of course, mistakes will be made).

Personally, I think it's the development module that needs improving. At the age of the players we are dealing with, having potential for each player is perfectly realistic. There are only so many hours in the day in which a player can train without over exerting himself, and the players only really have about 5-8 years left where rapid improvements are likely to be seen. Giving any player the possibility to reach the levels of Ronaldo, Messi or Kaka, just isn't realistic. Like I said earlier, at the age of the players we are dealing, it does become much clearer to see who has something special and who doesn't.

The only change to the PA system that I would make wuld be to scrap the random PA's such as -8,-9 and -10 and instead, allow the researcher to put their own custom ranges in that would give them more freedom when deciding a players PA. So, for example, with Lucas, the researcher could perhaps give him a PA of 160-180, with Nemeth he could give a PA of 140-170 and with Pacheco, a PA could be given of 140-190. A static PA would still be decided when a new game is created, but it would give each new game a lot more variety.

[André from Göteborg]

The learning rate idea would be fine if the youngsters coming into the game were around 8-11 years old. There is still an awful lot of work for youngsters at this age to do, and it's incredibly difficult to guage which one have what it takes, hence why some clubs take on upwards of 30 players around the age of 9 each year. The problem is though, in FM, the players coming through are aged 15-16. At this stage, the players have arguably gone through what is the most important part of their development as a footballer. By this stage, the vast majority of the players who started with them are no longer involved in football as it became clear to the club that they just didn't have what it takes.

And those players are sorted out of the game and will never even be a regen..

If you noticed whenever your youth squad gets a bunch of new kids most of them come from clubs other than your own.

And it is NOT realistic to have a max potential for each player. It IS realistic to have a learning rate for each player.. Like ive said too many times already:

If i could be immortal and stay 18 years old forever, im sure I could be the worlds best player. No doubt about it. I'm sure you could too unless you are in a wheelchair or something.. you cant say that i or any one else who is healthy have a limit to how good they can be at anything given the right time..

[Bongo-Bongo]

And it is NOT realistic to have a max potential for each player. It IS realistic to have a learning rate for each player.. Like ive said too many times already:

If i could be immortal and stay 18 years old forever, im sure I could be the worlds best player. No doubt about it. I'm sure you could too unless you are in a wheelchair or something..

Learning rate is basically development. There is no real need need for a learning rate. The basics for how a player can improve are already there, such as some mental attributes, some hidden attributes, injuries, traiing facilities and coaching staff, as well as some luck. So why would a rate at which a player can learn be needed on top of this? It wouldn't. Removing PA isn't a realistic approach. Like I said, it becomes much clearer for coaching staff to see whether or not a player has the potential to make it at the club or not around the ages of 15-16. Arguing that if you were to remain 18 could see you become the worlds top football is utterly pointless as that just doesn't happen IRL. Players only have so much time to improve their skills, therefore, most just do not have the potential to become world beaters. Around the ages of 21-24, most players development will slow down. Removing the PA system is enabling any player to become the best, which just isn't realistic.

[chopper99]

If i could be immortal and stay 18 years old forever, im sure I could be the worlds best player. No doubt about it. I'm sure you could too unless you are in a wheelchair or something.. you cant say that i or any one else who is healthy have a limit to how good they can be at anything given the right time..

I'm sorry but this is the most rediculous statement I've ever seen. Do you really believe this? That all it would take would be time and training for any person to become the best in the world at what they're trying to do?

You're wrong. I could start learning to play music now, something not effected by how old I am. But it doesn't matter how many years I practice or for how long I practice I'll never be Mozart. Why? because my genetic makeup and my experiences as a child never gave me a chance of being Mozart. By the time I was 15/16 (the age players enter the FM world) I would only ever be able to get to a certain ability as a musician. That would be my PA as a musician, I could practice as much as I wanted, for an infinite amount of time if I want and my CA would never reach that of Mozarts, as he had a higher PA than I could ever hope for.

[Neb]

I'm sorry but this is the most rediculous statement I've ever seen. Do you really believe this? That all it would take would be time and training for any person to become the best in the world at what they're trying to do?

You're wrong. I could start learning to play music now, something not effected by how old I am. But it doesn't matter how many years I practice or for how long I practice I'll never be Mozart. Why? because my genetic makeup and my experiences as a child never gave me a chance of being Mozart. By the time I was 15/16 (the age players enter the FM world) I would only ever be able to get to a certain ability as a musician. That would be my PA as a musician, I could practice as much as I wanted, for an infinite amount of time if I want and my CA would never reach that of Mozarts, as he had a higher PA than I could ever hope for.

you've hit the nail on the ehead with that one! The things that will limit how good you get are things you currently are aware of now. so for a footballer it'd be his lack of stamina, or lack of concentration, lack of determination, etc, etc. This are the things that'll limit him from being like pele.

I'm not saying everyone can be like mozart, I'm saying that if a young lad had all the building blocks to be like mozart he could be that good.

The building blocks in FM are pretty obvious depending on position, if a 15 year old player has them all there, why can't he be as good as pele? what exactly is stopping him outside of luck? thats my point! If these building blocks are there, why restrict improvement artificially?

All players will hit a natural limit, where their lack of pace becomes evident, where their anticipation isn't enough for a higher league, their passing isn't up to scratch etc, etc, The match ratings don't get to a certain level where improvement can be made. The lad might just have missed out on a loan when he was 18 that might have given him the boost needed to get into the team and getting experience when he's at the right age. to improve his prospects.

thats just the same as you never being able to get to the same level as mozart. you will be limited. but you will be limited by your ability and lack of improvement, not some random 'potential'.

[chopper99]

The building blocks in FM are pretty obvious depending on position, if a 15 year old player has them all there, why can't he be as good as pele? what exactly is stopping him outside of luck? thats my point! If these building blocks are there, why restrict improvement artificially?.

Because how many young players in real life have been labelled the next Pele, Maradona or whoever, just to go on to do nothing despite having the same opportunities as everyone else? The reason they don't reach the hights that other people do reach is down to something outside of their abilities and mentality. To me this something is simply potential, what else would you call it?

Pele played in Brazil all his life, a poor country with poor facilities, yet he was still the best in the world. That's because he had the potential to be better than other players who may have been as good as him at 15 even though many of these players will have played at bigger clubs with better coaches and facilities. That's because of Pele's natural talent for football, something that can also be described as potential.

[Neb]

Whilst, obviously, it's still impossible to tell just exactly how good a player could become, it becomes much clearer. Any half decent coach could tell you a player that has the makings of a star and one who can only hope for playing at the lower levels. Thats not to say that the coach will know whether or not the player can will get to that level, but he will generally be able to tell the more promising ones from the less promising ones (of course, mistakes will be made).

The coach would just look at a youngster and think, he's much better than the others. not that he's got potential. The potential bit comes from the fact he's better than the others and is still young. No one looks at me and tells me I have potential at something. All they see is how good at it I currently am and how much I'm improving. Then its an estimate to say that I'm going to be so good in so many years.

There is no such thing as a defined potential! Its a guess based on other tangible evidence.

Personally, I think it's the development module that needs improving. At the age of the players we are dealing with, having potential for each player is perfectly realistic. There are only so many hours in the day in which a player can train without over exerting himself, and the players only really have about 5-8 years left where rapid improvements are likely to be seen. Giving any player the possibility to reach the levels of Ronaldo, Messi or Kaka, just isn't realistic. Like I said earlier, at the age of the players we are dealing, it does become much clearer to see who has something special and who doesn't.

Your spot on here, its not the PA limit that is the problem, if the development model was working perfectly you wouldn't need a PA, as each player would reach as good as they are going to get, but they'd stop improving for a REASON! if that reason was removed they could possibly improve.

I don't think anyone has suggested that every player should have the possibility of reaching the leves of ronaldo, messi of kaka. just that they can improve if the circumstances are right. the circumstances would not be right for 99.9% of the players in FM to reach those levels. but there would be some way of improving everyone a little bit in the right circumstances.

The only change to the PA system that I would make wuld be to scrap the random PA's such as -8,-9 and -10 and instead, allow the researcher to put their own custom ranges in that would give them more freedom when deciding a players PA. So, for example, with Lucas, the researcher could perhaps give him a PA of 160-180, with Nemeth he could give a PA of 140-170 and with Pacheco, a PA could be given of 140-190. A static PA would still be decided when a new game is created, but it would give each new game a lot more variety.

Its still a fixed limit based on a guess. Too inflexible for my liking.

the question to ask would be why has a player stopped improving? if that can't be defined, then he shouldn't have stopped. FM is poor in this feedback, your promising midfielder stops for no reason at all. and there is nothing that can be done to continue his development. not very realistic in my mind!

[Rickooko]

The coach would just look at a youngster and think, he's much better than the others. not that he's got potential. The potential bit comes from the fact he's better than the others and is still young. No one looks at me and tells me I have potential at something. All they see is how good at it I currently am and how much I'm improving. Then its an estimate to say that I'm going to be so good in so many years.

There is no such thing as a defined potential! Its a guess based on other tangible evidence.

Exactly, and that is why i come up with the idea of Learning Rate instead of PA.

In real what a coach or scout can tell you on youngster:

1. Youngster A play better than Youngster B now. [In FM term: Youngster A have higher CA than Youngster B]
2. Youngster B seems to learn faster than Youngster A. [In FM term: Youngster B have higher LR than Youngster A]
3. However, nobody can tell the "Maximum" ability either youngster A or B can reach [In FM term: There should be no PA]

I have to agree a CA/PA system will make things much easier for programming. But i believe a system similar to the LR i suggested can make it even better and realistic.

For example: [The problem of PA system]

Messi is among the very best player in the world now with his young age. Therefore in FM we gave him, lets say a CA/PA of 185/200, as simply a CA of 185 can represent his ability, disregarding his young age.

Now, does it fair to say in 10 years time Messi can only gain 15 CA at most in abilities? As we put a unfair and unrealistic cap of PA 200 on him?

[With the LR system]

Now we remove the PA system, and use the LR system.

Messi would still have a CA of 185. The reason for this is he learn and improve extremely fast in compare with players with others at the same age. Therefore, he will be have a LR of 10. [Which is the maximum of a player can born with]

Now, with all the LR bonus or penalties [From training or whatever reason which will affect a player in learning or maintaining his abilities], Messi will have the chance to keep developing way beyond CA 200, OR, he might just peak his CA at 185 or even declining for whatever reason.


And surely, we cant let every player hitting sky high CA in the game cheaply. Therefore, the higher CA you want to develop and maintain, the higher LR you require.

CA 200+ - LR 10+ (LR required to gain and maintain CA on this level)
CA 180-200 - LR 9+
CA 160-180 - LR 8+
CA 140-160 - LR 7+
CA 120-140 - LR 6+
CA 100-120 - LR 5+
CA 80-100 - LR 4+
CA 60-80 - LR 3+
CA 40-60 - LR 2+
CA 20-40 - LR 1+

[Rickooko]

CA 200+ - LR 10+ (LR required to gain and maintain CA on this level)
CA 180-200 - LR 9+
CA 160-180 - LR 8+
CA 140-160 - LR 7+
CA 120-140 - LR 6+
CA 100-120 - LR 5+
CA 80-100 - LR 4+
CA 60-80 - LR 3+
CA 40-60 - LR 2+
CA 20-40 - LR 1+

Take this as an example:

Arsenal spot a 16 yrs youngster in lower division team with decent ability and according to the scout he is learning and progressing well. [In game term, he have a CA 80, and LR 6, at the age of 16]

Scenario 1:
Arsenal decide not to buy this player. He is so upset and mixing up with some bad mates [well....]. This have negative impact on him and lately his LR drop to 4 by time. This guy end up with a CA around 80~100, and finish his career in lower division.

Scenario 2:
Arsenal decide not to buy this player. He is disappointed but keep his feet in training. However, with the training facilities and competition level, he can still at best maintain a LR of 6. He end up as player with CA 120~140, doing decently in the lower division.

Scenario 3:
Arsenal decide to buy this player. Although he is not have the highest LR of 10, this young lad works very hard and will to learn. Also, with the superior mentoring from Wenger, together with the best training facilities and coach, this youngster is able boost his LR to 8! He end up developed as a good player with CA 160~180, playing for Arsenal in the preimer league.


As you can see the LR system can make a players career much lively and unpredictable like IRL. In contrast, a PA system simply limit all possibilities once a player was regen with a cap PA.

[chopper99]

Take this as an example:

Arsenal spot a 16 yrs youngster in lower division team with decent ability and according to the scout he is learning and progressing well. [In game term, he have a CA 80, and LR 6, at the age of 16]

Scenario 1:
Arsenal decide not to buy this player. He is so upset and mixing up with some bad mates [well....]. This have negative impact on him and lately his LR drop to 4 by time. This guy end up with a CA around 80~100, and finish his career in lower division.

Scenario 2:
Arsenal decide not to buy this player. He is disappointed but keep his feet in training. However, with the training facilities and competition level, he can still at best maintain a LR of 6. He end up as player with CA 120~140, doing decently in the lower division.

Scenario 3:
Arsenal decide to buy this player. Although he is not have the highest LR of 10, this young lad works very hard and will to learn. Also, with the superior mentoring from Wenger, together with the best training facilities and coach, this youngster is able boost his LR to 8! He end up developed as a good player with CA 160~180, playing for Arsenal in the preimer league.


As you can see the LR system can make a players career much lively and unpredictable like IRL. In contrast, a PA system simply limit all possibilities once a player was regen with a cap PA.

This is all already in the game. Players CA's increase/decrease at different rates depending on where they play, what facilities the team have, what coaches they have, what mental attributes such as determination the players have (apparently) and what injuries they pick up. Removing PA and replacing it with this proposed LR would add nothing that you couldn't get from simply improving the development model so that more factors have an impact on the rate of change of CA.

Replacing PA with a more fluid system opens it up for all kinds of problems to be honest, for very little benefit.

[Neb]

I think learning rate is already in the game. the players learn don't they? No two players learn the same amount over the same time.

The problem isn't how they learn, it that the learning only stops because the player hits his PA and stops. he should stop because he can't learn any more due to being restricted by age, club, experience, personality etc.

I'm pretty sure that a player with all the mental stats wouldn't learn much if he was sat in chelseas reserves for 5 years. but if he moved to sunderland and started playing, he'd get better. or if he was playing but didn't have the professionalism to push himself and improve then if a new manager managed to teach to be more professional he'd be able to improve.

I've a 19 year old midfielder, he's professional, hard working, determined, intelligent, high natural fitness, strong... all the things you'd need in a midfielder but he's not improving even though he's getting first team experience. its because his PA is limiting his development. The way I think it should work is that fair enough he doesn't improve, but if I was able to identify WHY he isn't improving, say perhaps a lack of workrate, I could mentor him, improve his workrate and he'd begin to improve again.....

Some players would never be good no matter what, some players would be amazing, some would be mediocre, some would peak early but never improve, some would continue to improve at some things until they retired, some managers would have a nack of improving youngsters, some managers would have the ability to keep older players playing for long, getting the best out of misfits, etc, etc.

You'd have the whole range of posibilities in the game, it'd make for a much richer experience.

Like I said earlier, I reckon it'd be a b*gger to code up all the various interactions and make it consistently varied.

[chopper99]

I've still yet to see a better system than PA mentioned. There are a few issues brought up and I'll address them individually:

1 - Youngsters with high PA are recognised by their ability at the time so potential should be based on CA.

Wrong. Yes, in the real world managers and scouts recognise a good player by how good he is at that time. This should be in the game, ie managers and scouts should work mainly from the players current attributes and performances when forming opinions, rather than the players PA. But, a players current ability has no bearing on their potential. A player could be better than his peers at 15 and go onto never make it. Yet other players of his age who were not as good can go onto excel this player and become better. This is because the first kid had a high CA but his PA wasn't much higher whereas the second kid's CA was lower but he had more potential. Managers would choose to sign the first player as a 16 year because at the time he looked better, but ultimately the 2nd player would be better in the long run. This happens in real life, if it didn't all players who were good as kids would go onto being good players as they got older. This simply doesn't happen.

2 - If players get top coaching and facilities etc they can improve past their PA.

Wrong. Again let me put it this way. If a group of players with similar abilities are taken on as youngsters at a top club, they won't all improve to the same level, despite having exposure to the same coaching and facilities. This is simply because all of these players will have different potentials. Everyone will reach a point where they cannot get any better at something no matter what happens. As I've said, the development model should be improved so that changes in clubs and facilities have more of an impact on a players ability to reach his potential, but that potential should always be there and cannot be changed.

3 - Anyone can become good given the right training so there is no such thing as potential. If I'd dedicated my life to football at an early age I could now be as good as Ronaldo.

Wrong. If that were the case then there would be no difference between any players at the top level, they would all be as good as Ronaldo. Enough said.

4 - No-one has ever reached their potential so for that reason PA is a nonsense concept.

Wrong. How can you possibly say that no-one ever reaches their potential? How can you tell? Are you telling me that olympic athletes who dedicate their life to training for the olympics haven't reached their potential and at that time most of them are the best they could ever be? Again, if there was no such thing as PA then all olympic athletes would be the same as they all dedicate their lives to their sports and when they get to the olympics many individuals are the best they could possibly be. i.e they've reached their potential and cannot get any better.

[Neb]

But players currently learn in the game! so there is a 'learning rate' already. not sure what difference your thing is.

The problem is that they learn then stop for apparently no reason. thats the problem for me.

[Rickooko]

But players currently learn in the game! so there is a 'learning rate' already. not sure what difference your thing is.

The problem is that they learn then stop for apparently no reason. thats the problem for me.

Yea, they do learn, but a talented player should learn faster than the others, which is the LR i was suggesting.

Without PA, what you can make a youngster more "talent" than the others, is the LR, which they learn faster by the same amount given.

[Nomis07]

This thread is becoming hard work to keep track of, I come on here to avoid work.

[Neb]

This thread is becoming hard work to keep track of, I come on here to avoid work.

me too! is it obvious??!!

[Rickooko]

This thread is becoming hard work to keep track of, I come on here to avoid work.

VERY TRUE!!!!!

Although i was the starter of it....

[chopper99]

This thread is becoming hard work to keep track of, I come on here to avoid work.

You realise you don't have to keep track of it don't you

[Nomis07]

You realise you don't have to keep track of it don't you

Now you tell me.

I'm going to cover myself for the rest of this thread and say I agree with what chopper99 has been saying, from what I can make out it's sort of similar to what I was saying.

The learning rate thing sounds like change for change sake btw.

[bigdunk]

That's all well and good Rickooko, but your scenarios are full things like 'the player decides..." and 'will to learn'. Those would all need to be defined somehow as attributes in the game (or how would the game know what a player is deciding to do, or how willing he is). You'd either to have to get the researcher to define them, which would be virtually impossible, or have the game decide them randomly. But either way, you still have a fixed PA, it's just that in your case, the PA doesn't exist as an actual number, it's the result of a complex calculation involving lots of other smaller numbers. Which just makes the DB a lot harder to balance and the research a lot harder to do.

[Rickooko]

That's all well and good Rickooko, but your scenarios are full things like 'the player decides..." and 'will to learn'. Those would all need to be defined somehow as attributes in the game (or how would the game know what a player is deciding to do, or how willing he is). You'd either to have to get the researcher to define them, which would be virtually impossible, or have the game decide them randomly. But either way, you still have a fixed PA, it's just that in your case, the PA doesn't exist as an actual number, it's the result of a complex calculation involving lots of other smaller numbers. Which just makes the DB a lot harder to balance and the research a lot harder to do.

Those things of 'the player decides..." and 'will to learn'.....well, i will leave it to SI to think about it, i am not programmer!

But i think they can be link with hidden attributes like professionalism, ambitious, workrate, determination etc....

And if we have a fixed PA, all those scenario will unlikely happened, imagine the player is born with a PA 100...

[bigdunk]

So basically, what you are saying is that you believe players that haven't reached the top, are either unprofessional, unambitious or lazy? And all of those scenarios can quite easily happen with a fixed PA, as easily as with your system in fact, because your system is basically the same as having a fixed PA.

[Rickooko]

So basically, what you are saying is that you believe players that haven't reached the top, are either unprofessional, unambitious or lazy? And all of those scenarios can quite easily happen with a fixed PA, as easily as with your system in fact, because your system is basically the same as having a fixed PA.

They are different, with the PA system, once a player born with PA 100, all the best he can get is a CA 100 no matter what happened.

With the LR system, lets say a player born with LR 5. If the LR remain the same all over the years, he will at best get a CA 100. However, it is possible to change the LR during his career and therefore other variations of CA beyond 100 is possible. [You can say it is a "non-fixed PA system" if you like, so PA can be changed in the course of life ]

[bigdunk]

They are different, with the PA system, once a player born with PA 100, all the best he can get is a CA 100 no matter what happened.

With the LR system, lets say a player born with LR 5. If the LR remain the same all over the years, he will at best get a CA 100. However, it is possible to change the LR during his career and therefore other variations of CA beyond 100 is possible. [You can say it is a "non-fixed PA system" if you like, so PA can be changed in the course of life ]

But the factors that govern changes in LR are fixed attributes (whatever the 'will to learn' is defined as). So his maximum LR is fixed, hence his maximum CA is fixed. Which is basically the same as a fixed PA.

[Rickooko]

So basically, what you are saying is that you believe players that haven't reached the top, are either unprofessional, unambitious or lazy? And all of those scenarios can quite easily happen with a fixed PA, as easily as with your system in fact, because your system is basically the same as having a fixed PA.

But the factors that govern changes in LR are fixed attributes (whatever the 'will to learn' is defined as). So his maximum LR is fixed, hence his maximum CA is fixed. Which is basically the same as a fixed PA.

Hm....but lets say the player move to a top division club [Arsenal], the LR i suggested might improved due to better training facilities, better mentor, high level of competitions etc.....

However, a fixed PA will not be changed because of these.

Btw, as chopper99 suggested the "CA system" already take this elements into the game. So what am i after now is a more fluctuating CA system, or perhaps a non-fixed PA system perhaps??

[bigdunk]

Yeah, training facilities etc will have an effect, but there is obviously a maximum effect that they can have because there are no infinitely good facilities. So it's just another fixed constraint on LR, which still leaves you with a fixed maximum CA. It's just that with lower quality facilities, a player will not be able to reach his theoretical maximum CA, which is exactly what whould be happening with a fixed PA system too.

With any non-fixed PA system, you either have to have constraints on the PA (in which case it's basically a fixed PA system anyway), or you have no constraints on PA and any player in theory can become the best player in the world (which is clearly wrong, in my opinion).

[Neji]

If you improve the development model then a player would never meet his PA, he would be limited by other things. My thought is that if a player never hits his PA in the game, why have it?

What chopper said is exactly what I was getting at. The only changes that need to be made are to have a change to the devlopment model, there is no need for SI to scrap the entire PA system. Basically all you're asking for is to have every player have a PA of 200 but make changes to the development model. There doesn't need to be major changes for this to work.

[The Glory Hunter]

For me it is very simple. The PA should be the likelihood of the player making it to that level. For example Level 10 should generate a PA highly likely to be between 180 and 200 but not guaranteed. Level 6 should be highly likely to be between 100 and 120 but perhaps a 0.01% chance of generating a PA of a world class player. It is not hard.

[Neb]

The thing that gets me (I just mentioned it in another thread) is that if I have a 16 year old player, and I change his professionalism and his work rate, would that make him have better skills when he is 25?

The way it currently works is that the player at 25 will actually have WORSE skills, because the professionalism and workrate use some CA points.

Thats not the way it should work! If i manage to get a young player to act more professional, train harder or push himself more he will be a better player for it. There is no denying it! If you hear what scouts look for in a player in real life, it tends to be their mental 'stats' that determine whether they are signed or not. following that its a base skill that can be improved upon assuming they have the mental capability to work at it.

Fair enough, not all players are professional or hard working, but that just implies that when they started playing they were much better than most. so although they might not improve as much, they don't have as far to improve! so less of a risk to the club that recruits them.

Look at Paul Gascoigne, if he had been rubbish when he was 16, no club would have touched him. as it happens he was very very good at that age, so there wasn't as much risk to the club by recruiting him. Jimmy Bullard was good when he was young, but no where near the Paul Gascoigne standard. he was recruited because he had a good personality, he was professional and had a good working mentality. Which in the real world implies that he has the ability to improve...

The game at the moment implies that if a young player is a fantastic talent, then he's got fantastic potential. but in the real world, fantastic talent means he is good for his age, but coupled with the fact he's only 18 and will improve implies he has fantastic potential. you see the difference? its only subtle, but in real life, no player has potential. All they have is a good ability and the potential to improve (through hard work, experience and training). They will only improve so much, but that is defined by how hard they work, how much experience they get and the quality of their training. if you change one for the better, they will improve more. if you give them less experience, worse training, or they get in with a bad crowd, they will improve less.

To be at the standard of pele, maradona, eusebio etc, not only do you have to be a fantastic talent at a young age (good CA) you also have to have the mental focus to get to the top. to continually push yourself harder and further. There is no such thing as a potential where you get as good as you can and cannot improve more, no matter what happens.

Having said all that, FM is just a game that needs to be programmed and tested. CA/PA although not ideal do mean that the game is fun despite its limitations. It has been like this for 10 years though, so I personally think its time to improve it a little..!

[x42bn6]

The thing that gets me (I just mentioned it in another thread) is that if I have a 16 year old player, and I change his professionalism and his work rate, would that make him have better skills when he is 25?

The way it currently works is that the player at 25 will actually have WORSE skills, because the professionalism and workrate use some CA points.

Thats not the way it should work! If i manage to get a young player to act more professional, train harder or push himself more he will be a better player for it. There is no denying it! If you hear what scouts look for in a player in real life, it tends to be their mental 'stats' that determine whether they are signed or not. following that its a base skill that can be improved upon assuming they have the mental capability to work at it.

Fair enough, not all players are professional or hard working, but that just implies that when they started playing they were much better than most. so although they might not improve as much, they don't have as far to improve! so less of a risk to the club that recruits them.

Look at Paul Gascoigne, if he had been rubbish when he was 16, no club would have touched him. as it happens he was very very good at that age, so there wasn't as much risk to the club by recruiting him. Jimmy Bullard was good when he was young, but no where near the Paul Gascoigne standard. he was recruited because he had a good personality, he was professional and had a good working mentality. Which in the real world implies that he has the ability to improve...

The game at the moment implies that if a young player is a fantastic talent, then he's got fantastic potential. but in the real world, fantastic talent means he is good for his age, but coupled with the fact he's only 18 and will improve implies he has fantastic potential. you see the difference? its only subtle, but in real life, no player has potential. All they have is a good ability and the potential to improve (through hard work, experience and training). They will only improve so much, but that is defined by how hard they work, how much experience they get and the quality of their training. if you change one for the better, they will improve more. if you give them less experience, worse training, or they get in with a bad crowd, they will improve less.

To be at the standard of pele, maradona, eusebio etc, not only do you have to be a fantastic talent at a young age (good CA) you also have to have the mental focus to get to the top. to continually push yourself harder and further. There is no such thing as a potential where you get as good as you can and cannot improve more, no matter what happens.

Having said all that, FM is just a game that needs to be programmed and tested. CA/PA although not ideal do mean that the game is fun despite its limitations. It has been like this for 10 years though, so I personally think its time to improve it a little..!

I think professionalism, just as with all the personality traits, don't take up CA.

Ambition and Professionalism are unfortunately key to getting good players - without them, it's extremely difficult to bring up a player. You'd basically need to throw the kid in the deep end at 16 and ensure he plays in most of your matches if he has a low ambition and/or low professionalism (in truth, having both will probably ensure that he'll never pass CA 170).

[Wayne\'o]

just to add to the debate in another way. when looking at a regen, it said he was touted to be the next John Terry, after paying alot of dosh, i then found out he wouldnt improve much more than his current ability which wasnt good considering he was now getting older, i used FMM to check his PA and CA to my dissapointment, his PA was only 100 and his CA was 95 i was very upset to find this cos i was led to beleive he was going to be the next JT.. so where the game got the similarities from such a young age i will never know..

[SCIAG]

just to add to the debate in another way. when looking at a regen, it said he was touted to be the next John Terry, after paying alot of dosh, i then found out he wouldnt improve much more than his current ability which wasnt good considering he was now getting older, i used FMM to check his PA and CA to my dissapointment, his PA was only 100 and his CA was 95 i was very upset to find this cos i was led to beleive he was going to be the next JT.. so where the game got the similarities from such a young age i will never know..

It's well known that the "could be the next..." statements only depend on three things.

1. Height (6'3 or so)
2. Nationality (English)
3. Position (DC)

[DrEdwierd]

Got bored of reading after a while but Nomis' point about half a page down that a player shouldnt be able to reach his PA without being at a good club is valid and i dont think this because the coaches or training are better etc because even a smaller club like fulham could put money into training and coaches etc. I think what allows players to reach they're PA should be that they are playing with a higher calibre of players all round, or players of similar PAs to theirs, this then allows them to get better or stleast play at there best as there is less pressure on them than at a smaller club because they have less to do etc etc.

[Wayne\'o]

Just as an example of how things can improve as just a guide, this doesn't take into account any training etc. if you use Genie scout, and click the box saying show potentiol ratings, you will see certian stats never change. these would be the hidden personality traits of a player and far as i know also the aggression stat too.