Trying to create a 4231 Possession tactics Please Help

Good Day FMers

I have a plan to play possession football with my beloved Arsenal side. I have been reading Cleons thread Art of Possession Football and other articles to get some ideas.

I would like to know if playing with a 4231 wide is a good formation to play possession football. Cleon thread did mention that the 4141 is a good formation for possession football. I know that Cleon used a 433 but with all the support duties it looked liked a 4141 in the defensive phase.

Could ask the if the roles on duties really matter when you are creating a possession based tactic. For example would a team with more support duties control possession better than a team with attacking duties in the final third.

So far this is my set up TI for a possession tactic. Please feel free to help me with this.

Control

Fluid

Lower Tempo

Normal Defensive Line

Close Down Sometimes

Tighter Marking. I want to win the ball back and stay close to the opposition player

Prevent GK Distribution

Retain Possession

Play out of Defence

Shorter Passing

Work Ball Into Box. I untick this if I am chasing a goal against a strong defensive team. I will also am untick WORK Ball into Box and then tick pass into space.

I do not know if I am on the right track but hoping you guys can help.

I am playing a 4231 formation.

roles and duties ?

4231, like many formations, can be great for possession.

But first, define 4231? 2xDM + MC/L/R? Or 2xMC + AMC/L/R? Or 451 with player roles and duties to shape it? Or likewise, 4411?

Answering that question can help decide what type of possession may be suitable - slow, patient build up play or aggressively closing down the opposition to force turnovers?

As was noted in your other 4231 thread (why start another 4231 thread?) the 4231 (MC+AMC/L/R) lends itself more readily to an aggressive tactical setup. If that's the formation which you are thinking about, then that's your starting point. You may want to think about how the TIs you list above fit in with that.

Not entirely sure why you've started another 4231 thread, when there is a massive amount of discussion there.

4231, like many formations, can be great for possession.

But first, define 4231? 2xDM + MC/L/R? Or 2xMC + AMC/L/R? Or 451 with player roles and duties to shape it? Or likewise, 4411?

Answering that question can help decide what type of possession may be suitable - slow, patient build up play or aggressively closing down the opposition to force turnovers?

As was noted in your other 4231 thread (why start another 4231 thread?) the 4231 (MC+AMC/L/R) lends itself more readily to an aggressive tactical setup. If that's the formation which you are thinking about, then that's your starting point. You may want to think about how the TIs you list above fit in with that.

Not entirely sure why you've started another 4231 thread, when there is a massive amount of discussion there.

That is why I am confused because the 4231 formation is a formation that is more suited to heavy pressing but I do not know how to set up a heavy pressing possession based tactic. I think that I will have to change the closing down settings to close down more. Can you give some guide or point me in the right direction on how to set up a possession based tactic that also press heavy and win the ball back

I'd go Control mentality

TI's for me would be something like:

Play Out Of Defence (stop those pesky centre backs hoofing up field)

Lower Tempo (remember the way way FM calculates possession if different from real life)

Close Down More

I personally wouldn't use Retain Possession as it reduces risky passes therefore maybe reducing chance created, but that's is just my personal choice.

That is why I am confused because the 4231 formation is a formation that is more suited to heavy pressing but I do not know how to set up a heavy pressing possession based tactic. I think that I will have to change the closing down settings to close down more. Can you give some guide or point me in the right direction on how to set up a possession based tactic that also press heavy and win the ball back

Well, remember what Cleon said in his Art of Possession thread - FM calculates possession based on time, whereas real life possession stats are based on passes made.

So, if you have an aggressive formation that lends itself more to aggressive tactics, heavy pressing to force turnover should naturally work in your favour - you're forcing the opposition to have less time on the ball.

Now, you could also set things to promote additional time on the ball when you are in possession (Lower Tempo, Shorter Passing and so on), but do you need to? You've forced turnover of the ball high up the pitch, why tell your players to slow things down? That becomes possession for the sake of it. There's a balance to find.

Well, remember what Cleon said in his Art of Possession thread - FM calculates possession based on time, whereas real life possession stats are based on passes made.

So, if you have an aggressive formation that lends itself more to aggressive tactics, heavy pressing to force turnover should naturally work in your favour - you're forcing the opposition to have less time on the ball.

Now, you could also set things to promote additional time on the ball when you are in possession (Lower Tempo, Shorter Passing and so on), but do you need to? You've forced turnover of the ball high up the pitch, why tell your players to slow things down? That becomes possession for the sake of it. There's a balance to find.

Wow no even more confused. I play a 4231 which is naturally a formation that can press the opposition because the players are in the AM STRATA. Now are you saying if I am pressing and winning the ball back then means I will have naturally a higher possession and if I want to slow things down and get even higher possession then I can tick such things as retain possession, lower tempo and shorter passing. So what do you think about my TI below as a plan to win the ball back high up the pitch and control the possession.

Control

Fluid

Close Down More

Higher D-Line

Tighter Marking

Prevent GK Distribution

Use Offside Trap

Just a very quick and dirty tactic plugged into my test save.

Match vs Man City.

4231 (2xMC+ AMC/L/R); Control / Fluid; Shorter Passing, Push Higher Up, Close Down More, Roam from Positions, Dribble Less.

61% possession, almost 700 passes, won the match with plenty of chances. Solid defence too.

One swallow does not a summer make, but a decent enough starting point to test all this theory.

Hopefully you can see those settings are about enhancing the naturally aggressive formation and high press, helping player movement, and making the team a bit more compact. All of which helped possession but still with a decent cutting edge in attack.

Wow no even more confused. I play a 4231 which is naturally a formation that can press the opposition because the players are in the AM STRATA. Now are you saying if I am pressing and winning the ball back then means I will have naturally a higher possession and if I want to slow things down and get even higher possession then I can tick such things as retain possession, lower tempo and shorter passing. So what do you think about my TI below as a plan to win the ball back high up the pitch and control the possession.

Control

Fluid

Close Down More

Higher D-Line

Tighter Marking

Prevent GK Distribution

Use Offside Trap

Best close down is to use TI Sometimes and then fine-tunning with PI. With TI Close Down More / Much More you will have players closing down less in their PI.

Now, why did you choose team shape fluid ?

Best close down is to use TI Sometimes and then fine-tunning with PI. With TI Close Down More / Much More you will have players closing down less in their PI.

Now, why did you choose team shape fluid ?

I thought you could add tell the players to close down more in PI even if you already had close down more in TI. The possession tactics that I have seen an read about all seem to use close down more. Could you give me a reason why you chose sometimes. I use Fluid because it makes the players help out in both the offensive and defensive phase of the game and also gives my players a bit of creative freedom on Fluid.

Just a very quick and dirty tactic plugged into my test save.

Match vs Man City.

4231 (2xMC+ AMC/L/R); Control / Fluid; Shorter Passing, Push Higher Up, Close Down More, Roam from Positions, Dribble Less.

61% possession, almost 700 passes, won the match with plenty of chances. Solid defence too.

One swallow does not a summer make, but a decent enough starting point to test all this theory.

Hopefully you can see those settings are about enhancing the naturally aggressive formation and high press, helping player movement, and making the team a bit more compact. All of which helped possession but still with a decent cutting edge in attack.

Thanks. What do you think about the roles and duties I have selected to play the possession football with a attacking edge.

Would you recommend using GK distribution to distribute to Center Backs

GK DEFEND

CENTRAL DEFENDERS DEFEND

LEFT BACK ATTACK

RIGHT BACK ATTACK

DLP DEFEND

CENTRAL MIDFIELDER DEFEND

AML - INSIDE FORWARD SUPPORT

AMR - INSIDE FORARD SUPPORT

AMC ADVANCE PLAYMAKER ATTACK

COMPLETE FORWARD SUPPORT

My 4-2-3-1 possession tactic has served me pretty well this season, you won't be winning every match 3 or 4-0 but it's more than good enough at getting the 3 points.

Note; this is a 5 man midfield of 2 CMs and AMC/L/R

Gk (De)

WB (Su) - CD (De) - CD (De) - WB (Su)

DLP (Su) - BWM (De)

W (A) - AP (A) - W (Su)

AF (A)

Mentality: Control

TIs: Tempo Lower

Closing Down Much More

Tighter Marking

Retain Posession

Shorter Passing

Work Ball Into Box

All my tactics use this setup and the same roles so my players are highly trained in their roles and that I daresay does have an effect on how well the tactic works

Best close down is to use TI Sometimes and then fine-tunning with PI. With TI Close Down More / Much More you will have players closing down less in their PI.

Now, why did you choose team shape fluid ?

Ok now I'm confused, I use close down much more as a TI so what are my players doing with their PI's as like you say the closing down meter is already on close down less.

Ok now I'm confused, I use close down much more as a TI so what are my players doing with their PI's as like you say the closing down meter is already on close down less.

You can only have so much closing down. For example, if you use the Attacking mentality that comes with a lot of closing down set by default. If you then add on the TI to close down much more you're not going to have much (if any) closing down left to be able to use for an individual player.

It all adds up and eventually you can reach the limit.

You can only have so much closing down. For example, if you use the Attacking mentality that comes with a lot of closing down set by default. If you then add on the TI to close down much more you're not going to have much (if any) closing down left to be able to use for an individual player.

It all adds up and eventually you can reach the limit.

Ok but what am I seeing here exactly

These are my team instructions in a 3511 formation and below is a screenshot of one of my central midfielders playing as an Advanced playmaker with attack duty

When you look at that it's actually quite ridiculous what I'm seeing.

A team instruction to close down much more but the player instruction when the opposition has the ball is to close down less.

am I reading it wrong?I'm certainly not seeing it wrong.

That is (possibly) a graphical glitch and it may be worth your time constructively posting it to the Bugs forum. I know there are a couple of graphical glitches, but can't remember off the top of my head if that is one of them or not.

I've just recreated this in my own test save. Your AP is not going to be closing down "less" when in a match, but with your other tactical settings he has reached his maximum closing down possible. If you dropped your def line back to normal or the Team Shape to Highly Structured (for example) you'd see his closing down changes to "sometimes". Just looks like something a bit wonky with the UI to me.

That is (possibly) a graphical glitch and it may be worth your time constructively posting it to the Bugs forum. I know there are a couple of graphical glitches, but can't remember off the top of my head if that is one of them or not.

I've just recreated this in my own test save. Your AP is not going to be closing down "less" when in a match, but with your other tactical settings he has reached his maximum closing down possible. If you dropped your def line back to normal or the Team Shape to Highly Structured (for example) you'd see his closing down changes to "sometimes". Just looks like something a bit wonky with the UI to me.

"Constructively" lol, as opposed to all guns blazing.Thanks for taking the time to have a look for me, problem is it plays with your mind because it looks like we're standing of when we should be biting at the opposition heels.

That is (possibly) a graphical glitch and it may be worth your time constructively posting it to the Bugs forum. I know there are a couple of graphical glitches, but can't remember off the top of my head if that is one of them or not.

I've just recreated this in my own test save. Your AP is not going to be closing down "less" when in a match, but with your other tactical settings he has reached his maximum closing down possible. If you dropped your def line back to normal or the Team Shape to Highly Structured (for example) you'd see his closing down changes to "sometimes". Just looks like something a bit wonky with the UI to me.

A report on that graphical glitch was posted at the time, I'm positive its logged so we'll just have to wait a few more months and hope its fixed for fm17

I just wanted to ask what are FMers thoughts on playing with a Standard Mentality and Flexiable team shape. Do you think playing this way makes it boring.

Am I correct in saying that with a Standard Mentality and Flexible Team shape would allow me to use TI to get my ideal way of playing.

So far the only thing I have done is go for Standard Mentality and Flexible Team Shape. I was hoping you guys could help me.

Am I correct in saying that with a Standard Mentality and Flexible Team shape would allow me to use TI to get my ideal way of playing.

I understand that when you play Control then you team is already quite attacking so adding more TI that encourages more pressing and attacking play would be a risk. Am I right with this assumption.

So far the only thing I have done is go for Standard Mentality and Flexible Team Shape. I was hoping you guys could help me.

My set up would look like this

Inside Forward Support

Inside Forward Attack

Advance Playmaker Support

Advance Forward Attack

DLP Support

CM Support

Full Back Attack

Full Back Support

Central Defender Defend

Central Defend

GK Defend

-----Rashidi---->

" sorry" I edited this post when I should have jsut quoted it...I knew i was too tired. Tried to fix it.

I now understand that using a Control Mentality and Fluid team shape is leaving your team open to greater risk and counter attacks.

That is the risk, yes.

I just wanted to ask what are FMers thoughts on playing with a Standard Mentality and Flexiable team shape. Do you think playing this way makes it boring.

Absolutely not. You can call this the "neutral" way of playing, you can also call it the best of both worlds.

Am I correct in saying that with a Standard Mentality and Flexible Team shape would allow me to use TI to get my ideal way of playing.

Yup, totally. It also allows great flexibility to change things during matches if you need to.

I understand that when you play Control then you team is already quite attacking so adding more TI that encourages more pressing and attacking play would be a risk. Am I right with this assumption.

100% correct .

So far the only thing I have done is go for Standard Mentality and Flexible Team Shape. I was hoping you guys could help me.

My set up would look like this

Inside Forward Support

Inside Forward Attack

Advance Playmaker Support

Advance Forward Attack

DLP Support

CM Support

Full Back Attack

Full Back Support

Central Defender Defend

Central Defend

GK Defend

The thing to watch for now is space - especially space that you are conceding to the opposition for them to play in, and what you can do to mitigate that. As you have nobody in the DM position, this is prime area A for the opposition to enjoy. With the Standard mentality you have a middle ground defensive line, which may give the opposition a little too much room to play in - you'd need to watch some matches to confirm this.

Another undesirable consequence of this is that one (or both) of your central defenders may get sucked towards the DMC area, leaving them exposed behind. Again you'd need to watch a match to see if that is happening.

The other issue is your central midfield. Two support duty players here may exaggerate any issues you see around the DM space conceded and your central defenders being pulled out of shape. Consider changing one or both to a defend duty in order to provide a better defensive shield. That may also have the additional benefit of helping to cover the other prime area for conceding space - the gap between your fullbacks and Inside Forwards.

Notice how I say "may" a lot . Based on your set up, that's what I expect to happen so I can point out some areas to watch out for - but whether it actually does or not I'm afraid only you can say.

Pretty much everything you do in FM has a positive and negative. You could say not pressing or pressing is risky, it all depends on how well your players do it and if you set them up well.

If you have players in advanced positions, how are they going to help if they don't press and force mistakes? You have a big gap between your defense and midfield, especially in front of your fullbacks. If you want to sit and not press you need a different formation suited to that shielding style of play that gets players behind the ball.

Your central midfield pair will leave you wide open with no defend role. Even if you had two support role fullbacks i'd say you need a defend role in MC to stay deep and clean up in front of the DC's. He will also add some depth considering you have an AP-A and two inside forwards which will potentially cause some congestion.

I just wanted to ask what are FMers thoughts on playing with a Standard Mentality and Flexiable team shape. Do you think playing this way makes it boring.

Am I correct in saying that with a Standard Mentality and Flexible Team shape would allow me to use TI to get my ideal way of playing.

[/Quote]

I am trying not to pop into too many threads unless I see something really off, and this is really off.

You can have a very entertaining tactic that plays defensive/structured and you can have an entertaining tactic playing Attacking/Fluid. Mentality is just a risk framework that guides your team. That's just the first step, the second step is looking at your tactic to make sure it has Balance, and that is done via Roles and Duties. Then you need to make sure you have chosen the right players for the right DUTIES. If you have chosen a player to play as attack, then he needs to have the attributes to exploit that position. Finally are the Team Instructions, these act like a throttle, you can increase the potency of attack or the solidity of defence by using the right shouts.

I find that this whole linkage is missing with a lot of players, I've really only noticed it in the last few weeks while I was coaching someone on how to play the game. What the community needs is a guide that links all these together and I am working on one right now. The problem is translating it into simple concepts that players can apply to games, and that adds to the complexity of what I am doing. God willing I get it done soon. It should help if i can find the time to finish it

For now this is what you should do:

1. Study the tactic, ensure you have the right SUPPORT duties in the right places

2. Study your team, ensure the players who are meant to play in those support areas can do the job that is required of them. Otherwise change the tactic.

3. Set up shouts, keep it simple. You can start with 3.

Everyone in the community is so hung up on Familiarity with tactics, they don't see the power in Mentality/Shape combinations. Structured gives you more room to exploit, more areas for people to run in, fluid means everyone is more compact, there is more creative freedom. Sometimes fluid can be bad, very bad. And sometimes structured is horrible. If you want to camp go fluid, if you want to stretch the game out, go structured.

I notice a lot of people using the 4231, and 99% of the time, they get it wrong with the role/duty combination and the shouts. Thats it.

Apologies as well to James I accidentally edited his post, was so tired I didnt realize it till it was too late

Who are you coaching?

Coach me!

Just to clarify an answer I gave above, I was way over simplifying and generalising. I should have mentioned frameworks. Rashidi (as ever) is on the money.

Thanks for your help and advice. I spent about 2 hours playing last night trying understand and watch games. I kept on seeing the same thing each time m, which was space. I was conceding a lot of space in front of defence mainly. I played against Man Utd and Mata in the AMC position destroyed me. Rooney dropping deep from the striker position also destroyed me. I tried pushing up to squeeze the space but Deepay and Young just run in behind me all the time because my D-Line was higher. I got angry and switch the game off. After calming down I came to a conclusion that denying the opposition space is very important. I because the space was in front of defence then the only suggestion was to create a formation which has a player in the DMC position. The question now is what role and duty to select.

Thanks for your help and advice. I spent about 2 hours playing last night trying understand and watch games. I kept on seeing the same thing each time m, which was space. I was conceding a lot of space in front of defence mainly. I played against Man Utd and Mata in the AMC position destroyed me. Rooney dropping deep from the striker position also destroyed me. I tried pushing up to squeeze the space but Deepay and Young just run in behind me all the time because my D-Line was higher. I got angry and switch the game off. After calming down I came to a conclusion that denying the opposition space is very important. I because the space was in front of defence then the only suggestion was to create a formation which has a player in the DMC position. The question now is what role and duty to select.

I must say James9 - that is a very reactive solution. I have a main 4-2-3-1, but I can switch to a 4-4-1-1 instead if we need to deny space, or a 4-3-3 as an alternative. You can control the space in your DMC area, without a DMC. A Central Midfielder with a defend duty will drop into this space naturally, and will reduce the space. There is no 1 way to play the game though and you need to realise that the same system won't work all the time. If you're playing a team with pace (like United with Depay and Young) then you either need to drop deeper to negate the pace, or play a good offside trap, or prevent the balls in behind anyway - your options there basically mean you could either sit compact and deep, or you could push up and press well and play an offside trap. They are 2 totally different ways of achieving the same thing. You should be able to tell quickly if plan A is not working (a series of early or dangerous chances for the opposition tells me to change things before I concede a goal).

I would be interested as to why you are playing a CM(S) & DLP(S) at the base of midfield. They are both basically a passing style, but 1 attracts the ball more, and the other keeps up with play more.

What do you think about playing a DLP D and Central Midfielder with a defend duty together in Central Midfield. The plan is to play with attacking full backs. i did read that if you play with attacking full backs then it would be best to keep both you CM on defend duty. I know the common rule is to have a sitter/runner combo in midfield but I would like to ono more about the defend/defend combo. Rashidi did say that it is very important to get your roles and duties right and that is what i am struggling with. I only play with two attack duties in my 4231 and those are my full backs. I got the idea of playing with both full backs on attack from a Youtube Video Rashidi did on his Tactical boot room series.

I Also play with all my front players on support duties and usually play with Inside Forwards on support duty and Complete Forward Support. Sometimes I will change the AMC to

attack duty.

As Rashidi said it is very important to sought out your role and duty and then the rest should fall into place. The problem I have is I am not sure how to do this

Would drooping the D-LINE to slightly deeper help to combat teams who have pace. Would this be the best way to stay compact. Is it possible to play a Control Mentality and Fluid Team shape but drop the D-Line.

You learn by trying, you are close to answering these questions on your own.

A "double pivot" is a perfectly acceptable option.

When considering if you want another support role or runner you need to watch the area they would be moving into, is there already players in those areas and adding another just causes congestion or will they help or provide a threat?