Morale will be always be down - End of season meeting

I have got promoted with Western-super-Mare in Vanarama South, so the board was delighted and players morale were all superb just couple of players weren't.

Here comes the season end meeting, I have said this

and the reaction

I have tried my best and so this always happen when you got promoted teams with low odds.. every season end of meeting their morale will be down..

Seriously this wouldn't happen in real life.. why will a player feel down after getting promoted? I just can't understand the reason. I know their morale is still good but I think they should still be superb, delighted or relieved for what they have done rather than thinking of what is coming.

What were your other options? I was about to say perhaps you put too much pressure on them, but that seems like a reasonable approach, acknowledging it will be tough, but trying to give them a confidence boost.

It's only a slight drop for each player, personally I wouldn't worry about it, easy to build back up.

Seriously this wouldn't happen in real life.. why will a player feel down after getting promoted? I just can't understand the reason. I know their morale is still good but I think they should still be superb, delighted or relieved for what they have done rather than thinking of what is coming.

They're not down about getting promoted. Your screenshot shows that? They had a (slight) morale drop because of what you said.

Always worth remembering that with any interaction in FM, there's rarely a "correct" answer. Green reactions can sometimes not be good, and red reactions don't necessarily mean bad. And similarly in some situations, there is nothing really good you can say. But there is always a least bad option. In your case, looks like the players just don't believe they can survive in a higher league. I think (although not sure) that you've chosen the lowest option in terms of expectations. So there really isn't much else you can do in this particular conversation. It does tell you what they believe they're capable of, so you can mould future interactions to play to that.

They're not down about getting promoted. Your screenshot shows that? They had a (slight) morale drop because of what you said.

I have to say I have tried all options because I saved the game and there is no any other option, there will always be that slight drop no matter what and this shouldn't happen at all.

every season end of meeting slight morale drop? doesn't sound realistic.

every season end of meeting slight morale drop?

No, of course not.

The user does make a valid point though.

It's absurd to think most of a squad would be even slightly upset by a post promotion comment they have a chance of staying up next season. Sure, if you're asking them to target mid-table or saying you "expect nothing less" than survival they might worry you're delusional or too demanding, but "I really think we can stay up" isn't going to make many professional sportspeople perturbed at your overambition. Especially if there isn't a less ambitious option.

A team meeting system where everything you say to a team after winning promotion is going to make most of them a little less happy than before because of your overambition is a broken team meeting system.

More generally, effects of being slightly more optimistic than appropriate ought to be a lot more subtle and long term for all but the most mentally weak players

(i.e. the fact that you've suggested they ought to survive ought to put a "looking forward to avoiding relegation" or "hoping he can keep the team in the division" into some players' short term plans, with the result that depending on their personality they become a bit more worried by the club's league form, determined to turn it around, pressurised by the relegation battle, or looking to leave as relegation now looks likely)

It's absurd to think most of a squad would be even slightly upset by a post promotion comment they have a chance of staying up next season. Sure, if you're asking them to target mid-table or saying you "expect nothing less" than survival they might worry you're delusional or too demanding, but "I really think we can stay up" isn't going to make many professional sportspeople perturbed at your overambition. Especially if there isn't a less ambitious option.

A team meeting system where everything you say to a team after winning promotion is going to make most of them a little less happy than before because of your overambition is a broken team meeting system.

1 - They aren't professional.

2 - They were predicted to finish 22nd in the first season. Telling them anything but, "don't get lost on the way to the ground" in a higher division is just nuts.

Sometimes there isn't a right answer... and nor should there necessarily be one in every case..

Your players who are barely more than sunday league players have unexpectedly got promotion against all odds it sounds... and you've told them you expect them to stay in the league....

I'd be slightly nervous about it too and my morale would drop...

The point is, they aren't sitting there being depressed... just ever so slightly nervous.

2 - They were predicted to finish 22nd in the first season. Telling them anything but, "don't get lost on the way to the ground" in a higher division is just nuts.

Did he have that option?

Anyway telling them that would be nuts.

2 - They were predicted to finish 22nd in the first season. Telling them anything but, "don't get lost on the way to the ground" in a higher division is just nuts.

Let's be serious here.. There is no mention of "I expect and must do things" so telling them "I really think we can" should not cause morale drop.

That option is the only reasonable one, if you do know one which shouldn't cause morale drop, care to say it? as I have said all of them will cause morale drop.

Sometimes there isn't a right answer... and nor should there necessarily be one in every case..

Your players who are barely more than sunday league players have unexpectedly got promotion against all odds it sounds... and you've told them you expect them to stay in the league....

I'd be slightly nervous about it too and my morale would drop...

The point is, they aren't sitting there being depressed... just ever so slightly nervous.

I haven't told them "I expect" but "I really think" that is the thing.

It's a slight drop in morale because you're putting pressure on them to finish clear of relegation. Why put that pressure on them already?

Slight, as in - it does not matter. It's the end of the season. Wait until they come back and then asses the situation.

Well technically you said you know you have what it takes to stay in the league... and their reaction was a slightly worried ' do you really think so?.. i'm not so sure' ...

Perfectly understandable to me.

The problem is clearly that there needs to be another option here - along the lines of "We know next season is going to be very tough, so be proud of what you've achieved, go back out onto the pitch after the summer and play with pride. Anything you achieve is a bonus" that completely takes pressure off and lets them know that even relegation isn't a failure on their part.

The problem is clearly that there needs to be another option here - along the lines of "We know next season is going to be very tough, so be proud of what you've achieved, go back out onto the pitch after the summer and play with pride. Anything you achieve is a bonus" that completely takes pressure off and lets them know that even relegation isn't a failure on their part.

There should be another option. We were just shown one of the options taken.

1 - They aren't professional.

2 - They were predicted to finish 22nd in the first season. Telling them anything but, "don't get lost on the way to the ground" in a higher division is just nuts.

Not sure why you're being so pedantic about the specifics of this situation when this is a systematic issue in the team talk module.

There (usually?) isn't the option to tell them not to get lost on the way to the ground or "have fun playing with the big boys" or "enjoy it while it lasts". So sometimes everything the module allows you to say is "overambitious" for most/all of the squad in FM's terms or "just nuts" in your terms. And the game prompts you to have the meeting whether you think it's likely to help or not. That's the broken aspect of the system.

Had the same issues with a squad that was fully professional, had just walked the division below and only had to replicate the success of previous promoted teams in avoiding the one relegation spot, so it's not like it's a one off edge case that only happens to tiny Vanarama teams that can't believe their luck at scraping through the playoffs either.

Not sure why you're being so pedantic about the specifics of this situation when this is a systematic issue in the team talk module.

There (usually?) isn't the option to tell them not to get lost on the way to the ground or "have fun playing with the big boys" or "enjoy it while it lasts". So sometimes everything the module allows you to say is "overambitious" for most/all of the squad in FM's terms or "just nuts" in your terms. And the game prompts you to have the meeting whether you think it's likely to help or not. That's the broken aspect of the system.

There usually is one to be competitive or give it your best, isn't there?

I've just had similar, or not, after gaining promotion to the EPL with Cardiff in the 1st season.

I'll give a few details about my situation:

We won the league quite comfortably, the board has given me £30m to spend and more than doubled our wage budget for the new season.

I've already secured the signings of Asmir Begovic and Dries Mertens, who were both transfer listed and available at half their value. Also signed a number of promising youngsters. All of them will join in the summer.

We also won the FA Cup and were actually favourites v West Ham in the final.

End of season meeting and I had these options, or words to that effect:

1) I have faith in this squad to finish mid-table

2) With the right additions to the squad, we can finish mid-table

3) I have faith this squad can avoid relegation

4) With the right additions, we can avoid relegation

5) It's going to be very difficult to avoid relegation but do your best

Now, I might be slightly off about the last one because I dismissed it as a real option so didn't pay too much attention to it but it was along those lines.

With players coming in, saying either of option 1 or 3 would be a lie.

So I was left with 2 or 4.

'4' just didn't seem ambitious enough but I knew that '2' would be seen as a bit too ambitious by some.

If there was an option of comfortably avoiding relegation and then any higher would be a bonus, I'd have chosen that one.

So I really thought about it and decided that, with our success that season and our £30m transfer kitty, higher wage budget and two great new signings and hopefully a few more to come, I'd go for option 2. I also took into account that my squad is determined and relatively ambitious so it was the right one to go for.

But no.

3 players liked my ambition but the rest responded negatively as they thought it was far too ambitious.

I'm not sure if I'd have gone for '4', the response would have been that I wasn't being ambitious enough though; I have a feeling it would.

So then on to the responses I could give:

1) You're right, I'm being too ambitious. Let's just try to avoid relegation - negative and a climbdown. Lacks ambition and belief

2) I think if everyone gives it their all, we can achieve it - shows I believe in the squad

I went for the 2nd option.

Response from the squad? Generally the same, that I'm being too ambitious.

The final options for me to say:

1) That's exactly the reaction I was after - er, yeah, I really wanted almost all of my players to react negatively

2) I disagree with the reaction and insist it's achievable - stubborn and slightly disrespectful to others opinions perhaps

3) I respect everyone's opinion, including those who don't agree

4) Thank you to those who agree with me - would divide the squad and suggest I don't respect those who didn't agree

5) It looks like I have misjudged the situation - saying this would instil a lack of confidence in my ability and judgement

There was maybe another option too, a slight variation on number 4.

Again, the wording of some of them might not be exact but along those lines.

The only one that seemed appropriate was option 3 as I felt it showed that I'm open to a healthy discussion/debate and everyone has a voice.

The result?

The 3 players who initially reacted positively changed to neutral, with the rest still negative. Some of the morale drops were slight but others more so.

I still think I did the right thing. Perhaps some might suggest I should have saved it beforehand and gone back to find out the response to other options and then chosen the best one but I'm not into that kind of thing.

I just find it a bit frustrating at times.

My little take on this, in general, is that it's a bit flawed.

Playing in the Spanish Liga Adelante i've acheived play-offs two seasons in a row; quite comfortably as well.

One season i missed out on promotion on the home advantage rule, after a draw in both legs of the final.

At the end of season meeting i tried telling the players that we should go for a top half finish, as there were some strong teams having been relegated from the top flight.

Morale just plummeted as the players seemed to be thinking i was completely bonkers in saying that.

My squad also, ironically enough, had the description of being highly ambitious.

Why did a highly ambitious squad think that goal was so unrealistic?

Even the board thought that the goal should be to avoid relegation.

Something i don't get as the team is much better than that, and we had the results to back it up. 2 seasons in a row.

Before that we were safely in mid-table position.

A few seasons prior to that i got relegated. Even then the board thought that we should try to avoid relegation; in the season after getting relegated from Liga Adelante.

Even after a predicted finish in 1st.

My current strategy, which really shouldn't be a strategy, is to always choose the lowest ambition (for a highly ambitious group of players),

and finish off with the most neutral, diplomatic response.

It seems to work for me, even though it isn't close to my team's performance in FM reality.

I think that club reputation has a lot to do with expectations. That might be an obvious thing to say but it's not really made that obvious within the game.

It would be helpful if, going into these end of season meetings, there would be an indication of predicted league finish beforehand, like they do at the start of each season.

Or when the board gives you your new budget and says you can adjust it when discussions come up about expectations, it would be useful if they gave you an initial minimum expectation right there and then.

I actually find quite the opposite of your Liga Adelante experience.

For example, if my team were expected to avoid relegation and we exceed that greatly and win the league or finish top 4, more often than not I find that the following season we are expected to at least qualify for Europe. If we do finish top 4 the next season, expectations go up to 'challenge for the title' the following year.

I have seen this when I've managed Cardiff many times before and it's unrealistic.

A couple of seasons of success and now we are expected to challenge every season? Next to no history as a big club, very few previous achievements, titles, cups, etc but we are now one of the big boys?

I've seen us apparently become a bigger club than Chelsea and Arsenal within 5 seasons due to short term success. Erm, what?!

I almost mention the reputation system as it feels it's based a bit too much on reputation.

What it actually is i have no idea about.

The rise in expectations, from what you're experiencing, is what i would have expected and what normally happens.

On a different note, that may or may not be related, i also experienced a strange thing in the revision of my goals in January.

This happened after earlier-mentioned relegation.

I was approached by the board for a revision of my current season's goals, which happens.

Only thing was that it was for the wrong division. It was for the Liga Adelante.

The division i had been relegated from the previous season.

In March again i was approached about the same thing. This time it was for the correct divison.

But that is probably for a different thread. Just laying it out there in case it's related.

End of season meetings have been occassionally weird in the sense OP describes.

That's based on personal experience.

Mostly though (almost all of the time) i have no issues with it.

That was the one and only time it was way, way off.

I have luckily not been asked to achieve a much higher end of season position than we're capable of reaching......yet.

I always say something along these lines and I like the fact that some players start shaking at the knees and blubbing. It shows me who's mentally not up to it.