Help please - still floundering in the dark

Had some time off FM due to moving house and the ensuing jobs that needed doing.

I've started a new save with Crewe. A little bit into the season and it's not going great:

I understand they don't have the best squad (perhaps I'm expecting too much from them?), so I've put together two tactics which I hope are simple (ie not overloaded with TI/PIs) with a Structured mentality not to give the players too much freedom.

A counter-attacking 4-1-4-1 for away from home or against better teams who I would expect to give us a hard time. Playing a DM to offer some protection from the CBs. The CM(A) should get forward to support the DLF (have also tried a DF(D)). The right WM(S) has a PI of "Cut inside with the ball" to try to make space for the FB(A) to come past him and give the overlap option

I also have a straight 4-4-2 when I want us to offer more going forward. DLP(D) holds in midfield, with the BBM being a willing runner to get forward when/if needed. Poacher should hopefully keep the CBs busy, whilst the DF(D) drops deeper to link up and pressurise midfielders. Again I've set the MR to cut inside to make space for the overlap.

However, as the fixtures show we're not doing very well. Of the 12 goals we've conceeded, 6 have been directly from crosses - typically the ball is crossed and my CBs just don't track the attacker who has a simple finish.

Some matches we seem to do okay for creating chances. Shrewsbury played a 4-4-2 against us. From memory, I think we started as a 4-1-4-1 but might have finished as a 4-4-2.

Against Southend we lost 1-0 but that was a similar match-up of 4-4-2 against my 4-1-4-1 or 4-4-2. Created hardly any chances which puzzles me a bit as the formation suggest neither team had a numerical advantage in a particular area.

Suggestions very much welcome!

That 442 has a very obvious balance problem as the most defensive midfielder is covering on the wrong side of the pitch. He should be covering for the attacking fullback.

Thanks. I had him that side to cover the W going forward, so I've swapped them over.

Tweaked my 4-1-4-1 to fit a player (Jones) returning from injury, so inserted him as AP(S) and change my DLP(D) to DM(D).

League one match against Bradford and an excellent first half - we were three-nil up at half time. Told the players not to let their performance drop at HT:

Lost the match 5-3! The first four goals all came from wide play and I'm puzzled as to what my left winger is doing defensively, given he has a hard-coded PI of "Stay Wider".

Cooper has come so far infield, he's level with the six yard box, which leaves the FB acres of space to put in a cross and it's 3-1.

A few minutes later, Cooper is again in the middle of the pitch

The FB has all the time in the world to cross, that's cleared but the clearence is smacked into the net for 3-2

3-3 comes from my CB tapping into his own net from a cross (from the other side this time though).

We go behind 4-3 by conceeding from a corner and, having taken a CB off to chase an equaliser, some nice passing seems the 5th go in.

Are my expections of a winger staying wider wrong? He has 10 for decisions but only 7 for positioning, so is he going to keep being in the wrong place? Perhaps I need to tell him to man-mark a FB? He scored two of my goals though, so got rated 9.1.

Stay Wider only affect the player when your team has possession. Does he have PPM's like Cuts Inside?

Your team talk made your ML lose confidence and your MC stressed which will affect performance.

Perhaps I need to tell him to man-mark a FB?

This can definitely help. It can possibly affect your attack if your winger is dragged deep by an overlapping FB as he will have a long way to get back, but it will put your winger in a better defend position. Another thing you can do, if you notice in instances that the wide overlaps are coming on one side, is change your winger to defensive winger or in this case, putting him to a WM like you have on the other side.

I think it will help you a great deal if you set a team instruction of Mark Tighter. I spent 2 seasons flabbergasted at the nonchalance of my back 4; in particular, my fullbacks were completely uninterested in tracking attackers running by them for easy headers. The "mark tighter" instruction has changed my defense from poor to above average.

Stay Wider only affect the player when your team has possession. Does he have PPM's like Cuts Inside?

Your team talk made your ML lose confidence and your MC stressed which will affect performance.

The whole psychological aspect of the game is a huge, huge failure and has been for years. Trying to reduce the complexity of human behavior to a small number of 0s and 1s was destined to be a failure of some size, but the team at SI could have mitigated the damage if they were smarter.

The whole psychological aspect of the game is a huge, huge failure and has been for years. Trying to reduce the complexity of human behavior to a small number of 0s and 1s was destined to be a failure of some size, but the team at SI could have mitigated the damage if they were smarter.

This is quite simply a massive overstatement. You are correct that is a tough one to model with a computer program, but on the other hand, it has far less effect than people assume. Morale effects, while present, do matter, but not to the extent that it will ruin a sound tactic with solid players. For instance, team talks are in effect for about 10 minutes at the start of each half, after which it fades. I certainly disagree that the team talk led to the massive collapse on the pitch he OP experienced.

Getting OT, but the problem with the psychology of the game is two fold. First, the lack of nuance makes it so kludgy. People clamored for this stuff for years so they put it in. They should have just told those whiners to bugger off.

Second, after you've played for a bit, the lack of nuance just makes it a rote button to push. You know how to not mess things up, so you do it. A decision that's automatic isn't a decision at all. It's just a task to complete.

This can definitely help. It can possibly affect your attack if your winger is dragged deep by an overlapping FB as he will have a long way to get back, but it will put your winger in a better defend position. Another thing you can do, if you notice in instances that the wide overlaps are coming on one side, is change your winger to defensive winger or in this case, putting him to a WM like you have on the other side.

I've got a screenshot I can upload tomorrow - that shows my WM(S) on the right wandering off past the centre spot and being closer to the left wing! He's very young, so low decisions / positioning again though.

A decision that's automatic isn't a decision at all. It's just a task to complete.

Well, you'll get no argument from me on this point as this is just a game with limits. Play enough and you'll figure it out . I do think that it is a solid base to build from going forward, and the potential is there for it to be greater. We'll see though, and yeah, we'll go back on topic here.

I've got a screenshot I can upload tomorrow - that shows my WM(S) on the right wandering off past the centre spot and being closer to the left wing! He's very young, so low decisions / positioning again though.

Young or not, stats or not, that would trouble me to see that. You are playing fluid, so I would expect some drifting, but not that much! Defending the wide areas is problematic in this match engine at times if you rely on your wide players to do it- just a foible we need to deal with. Something else you can try, though it comes with risks, is using your one of your CMs (or both) as BWMs when dealing with a team that is playing it wide or looking for an overlap on one or both sides. The BWM will charge out wide to close down a wide man, and it can be quite effective. SInce you have a DM and Two CBs this might work for you. Yes, he'll get out of position, but if your WM is doing a Lord Lucan act, something drastic might be called for. At any rate, you can try this and see if it helps.

What were your team instructions? What were the match stats? Were you creating any chances after going ahead 3-0? Your opponents should have been open to some counter attacks, so hopefully the problem is that your team just squandered those opportunities instead of not creating any at all.

Defending wide areas is challenging so you usually need to make sure their attributes allow them to cover that area faster..acceleration, anticipation help. You are using a flat 4 in midfield, so you should have the numbers to cover the flanks. Like others suggested, take a look too at either tight marking or specific man marking

Thanks to all for the suggestions

Had to start again after deleting the wrong save from the Steam Cloud

Got tonked 4-0 in the local derby as the season opener which I thought was bad omen but have managed to put a decent run together.

The Barnsley game (4-nil loss) was a laugh

[video=youtube;jvVMUJfWVBo]

Two "classic" FM16 back-post-cross goals, a 30 yarder I think my first choice keeper would have saved (he was away with the England U21s) and the 4th a defensive shambles. We did create a couple of good chances but poor finishing let us down.

I accepted the 3-0 loss to Chesterfield. They scored in the 90th minute, so I pulled off a CD for another forward. They then grabbed two more injury time goals as I chased the game.

My tactic for the recent good run uses this as the base:

I feel moving the DLP from the DM slot to MC has helped move the creativity further up the pitch. I do sometimes change him to an AP(S) if I went the player to push further forward. Although the BWM(D) in the DM line is going to close down more aggressively, I felt that was offset a little by having the DLP(S) who shouldn't go too far. I also felt he gets us the ball back quicker and by closing down more in the midfield, stops the WM and W from coming infield as much.

So, almost halfway through the season and mid-table with 22 points. I'd hope to get at least five more wins and a few more draws to get us close to the 50 point safety mark. Given we have a lot of young players who need time to get better, I think we're in decent place (especially being pre-season relegation favourites). Some better finishing would help, especially from the W who does arrive late at the back post but then hits the keeper, not the goal (he only has 7 for finishing).

Oh, another change I think has helped is to have the GK distribute to a CB or FB. When he was hoofing the ball up the pitch, it would usually come straight back at me.

Good to see you've got things moving in the right direction .

Shame you deleted the wrong save though.

Took a quick look, I am in fact using a 4141 and a 442 combination with Kingstonian at the moment. And, let me share some of my conclusions based on my own use.

The 4141 is a good counter attacking system if its played as one. If its played like one. Looking at your system its not really ideally counter attacking because only 2 players are surging forward the MC and the Winger. The DLP drops back which is fine but thats it..one flank attack. By the time the full back on the right gets in on the act its a bit late. So its actually wasted. What I would do is set the right WM to a Winger and turn the FB to support and switch the DM to a pure DM and turn one of the MCs into a DLP on support, now you get creativity in the middle where its needed. If you see some of my videos you will notice now my MR always bags goals because of the attacking patterns that come with it. You can also afford to adjust going from counter - attacking without changing much.

The 4141 is a good counter attacking system if its played as one. If its played like one. Looking at your system its not really ideally counter attacking because only 2 players are surging forward the MC and the Winger. The DLP drops back which is fine but thats it..one flank attack. By the time the full back on the right gets in on the act its a bit late. So its actually wasted. What I would do is set the right WM to a Winger and turn the FB to support and switch the DM to a pure DM and turn one of the MCs into a DLP on support, now you get creativity in the middle where its needed. If you see some of my videos you will notice now my MR always bags goals because of the attacking patterns that come with it. You can also afford to adjust going from counter - attacking without changing much.

this is like the opposite of what everyone else says about counter attacking. i would love to have a sit down chat with the devs one day about the minutiae of this game because it isn't especially clear reading these forums a lot of the time

this is like the opposite of what everyone else says about counter attacking. i would love to have a sit down chat with the devs one day about the minutiae of this game because it isn't especially clear reading these forums a lot of the time

All you need to know http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/444680-The-Art-of-Counter-Attacking

this is like the opposite of what everyone else says about counter attacking. i would love to have a sit down chat with the devs one day about the minutiae of this game because it isn't especially clear reading these forums a lot of the time

Even if you think it through logically....his system isn't ideally counter attacking. You need players attacking the space early if you have the ball deep. I am probably the only person outside the devs who knows as much about the engine.

Even if you think it through logically....his system isn't ideally counter attacking. You need players attacking the space early if you have the ball deep. I am probably the only person outside the devs who knows as much about the engine.

Depends on terminology and what you mean by "ideally counter attacking". What you've said there sounds more like a direct style of play to me, if it was a proper FM triggered counter attack they would attack that space on there own without instruction.

Unless your suggesting a proper counter attack will be triggered because of the attacking movement?

Even if you think it through logically....his system isn't ideally counter attacking. You need players attacking the space early if you have the ball deep. I am probably the only person outside the devs who knows as much about the engine.

I wasn't disagreeing. I don't know enough to disagree. You look at that counter-attacking thread and the main advice is no attacking roles. Your advice is more/different attacking roles. I'm not even making a point really. Just expressing confusion

I wasn't disagreeing. I don't know enough to disagree. You look at that counter-attacking thread and the main advice is no attacking roles. Your advice is more/different attacking roles. I'm not even making a point really. Just expressing confusion

People don't realise that some attacking roles have forward runs set as default. So that presupposes that they will attack space, if they have good OTB, and acceleration, chances are they will rule the flanks.

No offence taken, I was advocating one more attacking role, I wouldnt even have the half backs on attacking

Coming to the end of my first season and the antics of my wide midfielders in a 4-4-2 or 4-1-4-1 is still driving me nuts.

Few examples...

Why is Cooper (my W(A)) in the middle pitch? He leaves the FB with stupid amounts of space.

Same match:

Cooper has closed down the FB who has the ball on his flank

The ball has been passed back infield, so Cooper abandons his wing...

Leaving the FB in acres of space

End result? Simple FB cross... striker goal

Another example from the same match, this time my WM(S) on the right of midfield

Current TI:

Kirk is closing down the FB with the ball:

FB passes the ball back inside, so Kirk pays no attention to him and runs after it

Hey presto, ball goes back to the FB with miles of space

End of the first season and we came 18th, 6 points safe from relegation. We were always out of the bottom 4 but tailed off badly IMO.

Last third of the season has been quite disappointing.

It's easy to spot where my defensive weakness is, just more difficult what I do to fix it without becoming too defensive (not to mention the escapades of my ML/MR above).

My first choice striker who has spent the vast majority playing up-front on his own has done quite well - 26 goals in 45 games and 5th best in League One.

Finishing has been also poor from other players though - the players didn't convert enough 1-on-1s or chances inside the 6 yard box. Cooper, my ML, has the best shots on target in the league (56%) but only 7 goals which is no doubt down to him only having 7 (now 8) for finishing

I don't see what more I can do - my players couldn't hit a cow's **** with a banjo

0-0 draw with Preston.

0-2 loss to Coventry in the cup. Both their goals come from, IMO, the crossing bug SI couldn't fix in 16.3 (deep cross, all four defenders just switch off and watch the ball) - just :mad::mad:

Lets not start venting frustrations on supposed crossing bug .

If you're looking for help we're going to need your detailed tactical setup.

The last one you posted was on 25th May (post #15) where you were using a 4141 formation with a Counter mentality. However you now seem to be using a 442 and Control, but no idea of player roles and duties?

If you were making progress with the 4141, why the dramatic change?

Doncaster was end of season, already safe, so wanted to try a 4-4-2 to give another striker some game time.

Both above screenshots were 4141 (bar last part of Coventry cup match when I threw on another striker to try to get the equaliser).

Currently losing the next match 2-1 but couldn't play 4141 as both my DMs are away on international duty (plus 2 other players) and I wasn't asked to postpone the match.

Will confirm current 4141 once I'm out of the match.

I am no expert but from the OP you're poacher would be way too isolated

Will hold my hands to Friday's rage-fest post, especially after watching England vs Russia on Saturday night. The nil-nil against Preston saw us create lots of nice chances and people just couldn't put them away.

I was on a run of 4 losses and 1 draw, but have since won the last two.

Core tactic:

I will tweak the AP(S) to DLP(S) and the BWM(D) to something less aggressive during a match if I feel changes are needed (ie sit bit a little more)

Just won the last match 3-0 and this is just the sort of chance/goal I want to be creating.

[video=youtube;IXrdKV5N_n0]

AP(S), CM(A) and DF all linking up to cut straight through the defence:cool:

So into the next season, having made the playoffs last season, though didn't get to Wembley.

Season started very well but has gone sour...

Still the same base tactic

The YouTube clip in my previous post should some lovely link up play, movement and a good goal. Yet, all that seems to have disappeared and it feels like we are wading through treacle. We have had some injury problems (which my two best CMs are about to come back from) but it seems nobody wants to move into space or make a run into the box. If we do get the ball into the box, I'll usually put 10p on the shot being blocked.

Where's the movement gone? Is my tactic badly flawed?

What I want is a solid defence - I don't feel my CDs are that good, so want somebody in the DM to cover them (no DM and I'll guarantee one will step up to close down which results in us conceding through the middle of the box). The DM will also offer a deep option to recycle the ball if we have some possession in the opponents half. The DLP(S) or AP(S) will sit higher up than the DM, but deeper than the CM(A) to direct play and link up. He should spot the W(A) or FB(A) running on the flanks and hopefully get a longer ball in to turn the defenders. The WM(S) has PIs to Get Further Forward, Cut Inside With Ball and Cross From Deep. He should cross if he can spot a runner, make another runner into the box or, having cut inside inside, allow the FB(A) to bomb past on the overlap (though why FBs don't cross when wide open is utterly beyond me!).

The DF(D) or DF(S) should be working hard to pressure defenders when we don't have the ball, but when we do, hold it up to allow the CM(A) to get forward to link up (again see YouTube clip above). If the ball goes wide to the W or FB, he should be attacking the box as a crossing target.

Now, having started well in being up the table (I was 3rd at one point), I understand teams will sit back more. What frustrates here is that I don't feel I'm playing some gung-ho, attacking tactic. With a Counter or Defensive mentality, it's a lower tempo should give a patient build-up but it feels we struggle to create solid chances.

I'd be very grateful for some advice please

Each match seems to be a catalogue of defensive errors and opposition world class keepers (where did they come from in League 1?) keeping out shots.

Goalkeeping bloopers DVD submission one:

[video=youtube;He6spNUmis8]

The first goal wasn't even given as an own-goal!

Defender bloopers DVD submission:

[video=youtube;3oMipSLs2Jg]

What on earth is Turton doing heading the ball back into play for the 1st goal? Does the FM engine not have some form of player communication? Even a Sunday league GK would be screaming at him to let the ball go out.

The number of matches we end up dragging ourselves back from 2-0 down or, we go 1-0 up but miss chance after chance to make the score safe® and then concede is just silly. We're 6th in the league for shots on target (43%) but 10th for goals scored.

I've tried to change things around in midfielder, moving the BWM to Anchor to stay more central and not get caught out closing down. I picked up a useful guy on loan who is doing well at RPM(S).