The 4231 Deep help

Good Day FMers

After reading several post and getting advice from Cleon and watching a few games I have decided that the 4231 wide is probably not the formation for me. I just cannot get the two CM to do what I want in defence no matter what role I give them. I have tried DLP Support and CM Defend, DLP Defend and CM Support I have also tried CM Defend and CM Support. The problem is that they do not shield the defence well from the CM position at all and when I play against a team with AMC or a STRIKER who drops deep then all hell breaks loose in my defence.

I have tried playing a higher line to compress the space and very fluid but all that happens is counter attack after counter attack because of the high line. Cleon did advice me to think outside of the box and look at what I am doing. I think he said "if I am doing something that is not working then why do I keep doing " and straight away something came clicked and my head. The answer was that I have been trying to get my 4231 wide to work with two CM and it was not working. I could not get the CM to shield my defenders well enough

So now I am taking Cleon's advice and I am looking to set up a 4231 deep. The problem is I do not know where to begin. I know I want a shield in front of my central defenders so I have decided to use a Anchor Man as one of my DMC. I know I will need to a more attacking player in the other DMC position to link play with the players up top so I have gone for a Regista.

The problem I now have is how to get my front 4 players to all link up with my other players in the team in regards to what roles and duties to use.

The think with this set up is everything as to link together one mistake in selecting the wrong role and duty and the formation could fall apart.

So I am here to ask for help and advice

Well first of all I would want to ask you what kind of style do you want to play? I'm guessing it's a more possession style of play rather than counter-attacking? It would also be handy to post your setup here so we can look in to it with more detail. Having a good overview of all the roles and duties makes it easier to have an idea how it can work all together.

An anchor man and regista as a duo is what I would've gone for as well and should provide enough stability.

As for the AMC, I would definitely put him in a support role where he drops deeper. It could be an Attacking Midfielder (S) for example. Which would provide more defensive work than an AP(s).

It might also be an option to play a MC instead of a AMC, but then as a AP(a). This could help in regard of linking up better with the deep duo. However then I think it might be better to play your striker in a support duty.

Why are you picking a formation without mentioning HOW you want to play?

As i've said (typed) a lot today, your formation is your defensive structure. The defensive formation will concede space somewhere on the field, the question is where and how that fits your defensive, transition and offensive plans.

The roles and duties you pick will depend more on the style of play you go for. A balanced tactic takes more than just looking at one or two parts, its a sum of all its strengths and weaknesses.

If you use a REG(s) or RPM(s) as one of your DM players then you should probably lock down that side of the formation with more conservative wide players...at least a conservative full back. You can be more adventurous on the same side as your defensive DM, with an overlapping wingback/inside forward combo, for instance. Your ST and AMC pair should be complementary in terms of creating/attacking. AF(a) and AP(s) is an example. CF(s) and AM(a) is another example, though you do have to consider leaving space for your wide players to attack. What you don't want is two IF(a), an AF(a), and a SS(a) all attacking the same space. Furthermore, you likely need at least one guy in your AM strata to have a support duty in order to give you defenders and DMs more passing options in your buildup play...assuming you aren't planning on exclusively playing longballs.

There are endless options for this formation, including dropping the AMR and AML back a notch to MR and ML and playing a 4-4-1-1. If you can't get the 4-2-3-1 deep to work then you may want to consider customizing a 4-4-1-1 to play like a 4-2-3-1.

Have you considered using BBM alongside Anchorman ? BBM does his job defensively, provides link bcs of his running, and has an attacking input layering your attack coming late to thw box to support attack or try a long shot from outside..

You should then have creativity in AMC position..

Why are you picking a formation without mentioning HOW you want to play?

As i've said (typed) a lot today, your formation is your defensive structure. The defensive formation will concede space somewhere on the field, the question is where and how that fits your defensive, transition and offensive plans.

The roles and duties you pick will depend more on the style of play you go for. A balanced tactic takes more than just looking at one or two parts, its a sum of all its strengths and weaknesses.

Well my intention is to play like How Dortmund is playing now under current trainer Thomas Tuchel. Dortmund now plays a more possession based game. I believe it is juego de posicion, but with a German flair. Translated to possession with a purpose. Tuchel relies on individual talent and that is what I want to create with my current Arsenal Team. I have included below a few TI to try and achieve what I am looking for.

Control

Fluid - Team Shape

Tempo Normal

Normal Defence Line

Closing Down Sometimes

Retain possession

Shorter passing

Play out of Defence

So above is my team Instructions that I will be using to achieve my goal. I am going to rely on the players talent and PPM. I will also be giving PI instructions to individual players also.

Can you guys offer any advice so far what I need to add or take away from my Team Instructions

I haven't seen more than a few highlights of Dortmund under Tuchel and there are many different interpretations of the phrases you used.

The instruction that stands out to me is "Retain Possession", its lowering of passing, tempo and risky passes makes it have a big effect on the way the team plays, I typically change roles and/or duties due to its effect (more to feet passing so less attack duties that have forward runs often). I don't think it suits your "Possession with Purpose" as I take "purpose" as looking to create chances.

I'd just start simple with:

Control Mentality + Fluid Team Shape

TI: Shorter Passing + Play Out of Defence + Work Ball Into Box

GK: GK-D/SK-D

DR: WB-A (Bellerin)

DCR: CB-D (buy someone)

DCL: CB-D (Koscielny)

DL: WB-S (buy someone)

DMCR: DM-D (Coquelin or buy someone)

DMCL: RPM-S or DLP-S (Carzola / Arteta Both a bit weak defensively against big teams / Long term buy someone)

MC: MC-A (Ramsey)

AMR: IF-S (Ox)

AML: IF-A (Sanchez)

ST: F9-S (Ozil)

For me that balances the keep possession instructions but keeping purpose. With 3 attack duties from the AML, MC and DR positions providing runs from different depths. I would expect a lot of goals to come from the F9 dropping deep and then playing the AML clean through, with the MC offering himself or making runs past. Secondary the RB overlapping and cutting it back or occasionally crossing with the AML, ST, AMR and MC being in the box plus the RPM/DLP lurking outside.

A team with the quality of Arsenal should get 50-60% possession every game without needing Retain Possession. If I did use Retain Possession I would consider making the MC a BBM-S or MC-S and the AML to IF-S so they looked to get involved more by offering a pass to there feet and less runs for risky passes.

I haven't seen more than a few highlights of Dortmund under Tuchel and there are many different interpretations of the phrases you used.

The instruction that stands out to me is "Retain Possession", its lowering of passing, tempo and risky passes makes it have a big effect on the way the team plays, I typically change roles and/or duties due to its effect (more to feet passing so less attack duties that have forward runs often). I don't think it suits your "Possession with Purpose" as I take "purpose" as looking to create chances.

I'd just start simple with:

Control Mentality + Fluid Team Shape

TI: Shorter Passing + Play Out of Defence + Work Ball Into Box

GK: GK-D/SK-D

DR: WB-A (Bellerin)

DCR: CB-D (buy someone)

DCL: CB-D (Koscielny)

DL: WB-S (buy someone)

DMCR: DM-D (Coquelin or buy someone)

DMCL: RPM-S or DLP-S (Carzola / Arteta Both a bit weak defensively against big teams / Long term buy someone)

MC: MC-A (Ramsey)

AMR: IF-S (Ox)

AML: IF-A (Sanchez)

ST: F9-S (Ozil)

For me that balances the keep possession instructions but keeping purpose. With 3 attack duties from the AML, MC and DR positions providing runs from different depths. I would expect a lot of goals to come from the F9 dropping deep and then playing the AML clean through, with the MC offering himself or making runs past. Secondary the RB overlapping and cutting it back or occasionally crossing with the AML, ST, AMR and MC being in the box plus the RPM/DLP lurking outside.

A team with the quality of Arsenal should get 50-60% possession every game without needing Retain Possession. If I did use Retain Possession I would consider making the MC a BBM-S or MC-S and the AML to IF-S so they looked to get involved more by offering a pass to there feet and less runs for risky passes.

Would a anchor man not give you more security than a DMC Defend and the Ramsey role is that just a normal central midfielder attack. would there not be a gap between the CM and AMR/AML. I can see the RPM or DLP support being the player that links and carry out the transitions from defence to midfield. But what I am now concerned about now is how do I get the transition from midfield to attack. Rashidi touch on this point on his blog and really went into detail about transitions. He mainly used a 4411 or 4231 system so I am guessing that it might be easier to get those transitions to work because of team formation. Trying to get the play to link and transitions to work is much harder in a 4231 Deep formation. I am open to get some more advice from the FM Community.

Would a anchor man not give you more security than a DMC Defend...

Its personal preference really, go with what you want and see if they perform as you expect. Anchorman sits and keeps things simple when he gets the ball. DM closes down a little more and isn't as limited with the ball. Since its a possession style of play I went with one who can offer a bit more offensively.

DM-D: Dribble Less, Hold Position, Close Down More

A-D: Shoot Less Often, Dribble Less, Fewer Risky Passes, Hold Position

... and the Ramsey role is that just a normal central midfielder attack. would there not be a gap between the CM and AMR/AML.

Yep, starting from MC should help defensively shielding the DMs so they don't need to step up as often. The deeper starting position should make him more involved in transitions but will look to get into the box and finish moves.

The F9-S will drop into the AM space with the IF roles naturally coming inside, plus fluid team shape will bring the forwards a little deeper to help with transitions. I would expect to see interplay between the F9 and all 3 with a RPM floating around deeper/wider looking to get the ball to feet or a DLP sitting deeper.

I can see the RPM or DLP support being the player that links and carry out the transitions from defence to midfield. But what I am now concerned about now is how do I get the transition from midfield to attack. Rashidi touch on this point on his blog and really went into detail about transitions. He mainly used a 4411 or 4231 system so I am guessing that it might be easier to get those transitions to work because of team formation. Trying to get the play to link and transitions to work is much harder in a 4231 Deep formation.

If your worried about it I think you should go for the RPM as he offers more with his roaming where the DLP is more likely to be behind the ball holding his position. I'm theory crafting a bit and the players used might play it differently to how I expect.

Its personal preference really, go with what you want and see if they perform as you expect. Anchorman sits and keeps things simple when he gets the ball. DM closes down a little more and isn't as limited with the ball. Since its a possession style of play I went with one who can offer a bit more offensively.

DM-D: Dribble Less, Hold Position, Close Down More

A-D: Shoot Less Often, Dribble Less, Fewer Risky Passes, Hold Position

Yep, starting from MC should help defensively shielding the DMs so they don't need to step up as often. The deeper starting position should make him more involved in transitions but will look to get into the box and finish moves.

The F9-S will drop into the AM space with the IF roles naturally coming inside, plus fluid team shape will bring the forwards a little deeper to help with transitions. I would expect to see interplay between the F9 and all 3 with a RPM floating around deeper/wider looking to get the ball to feet or a DLP sitting deeper.

If your worried about it I think you should go for the RPM as he offers more with his roaming where the DLP is more likely to be behind the ball holding his position. I'm theory crafting a bit and the players used might play it differently to how I expect.

Thanks for all the advice. Could I ask if you would look at dropping the AMR/AML into the midfield strata. I have considered doing this so that the ball does not have to travel too far to reach them.

Maybe against weaker sides I could use AMR/AML and against stronger sides I could then drop them down to midfield strata and give them roles as Wide Midfielder. I think you can customise the Wide Midfielder role to play like a Inside Forward.

Would just like to get your thoughts and feedback

No problem.

Could I ask if you would look at dropping the AMR/AML into the midfield strata. I have considered doing this so that the ball does not have to travel too far to reach them.

You can do, the deeper defensive positioning will mean they will position deeper rather than just ending up deeper when tracking back. Because of being more consistently deeper you would need to make sure the ST isn't isolated. I prefer roles with Hold Up Ball such as CF-S or DLF-S.

No problem.

You can do, the deeper defensive positioning will mean they will position deeper rather than just ending up deeper when tracking back. Because of being more consistently deeper you would need to make sure the ST isn't isolated. I prefer roles with Hold Up Ball such as CF-S or DLF-S.

So if I put them in the midfield strata I should be looking at playing either a CF-S or DLF-S. I hope I can still get them to take part in the attacking transitions and scoring goals. That was always my biggest concern with pulling them back that they would leave my striker too isolated and the my attacking transitions would just fall apart if they are in midfield strata.

How about playing Wingers in the midfield strata instead of wide midfielders. I know I will loose some of the defensive contributions because a wide midfielder helps more with defending than a winger. But wingers would want to get to byline and cross more because I think the crossing instructions is hard coded into their role and duty. If I playing with CF S OR DLF S and CM A coming from deep they might be crossing into the box with no players there to finish moves. The other issue o have will not what to do with Ozil. From your advice on what I can see on the forums if I move AML/AMR down to MR/ML strata then a CF-S. or DLF S would be the best striker role to use. Ozil is not a DLF or CF so I do not know what to do with him. He cannot play at CM A because he has the PPM comes deep to get ball, which will hinder him from breaking forward often from the CM-A position.

Just wanted to get your thoughts on this really

If you're looking for further inspiration - Baphonet has made a lovely Thomas Tuchel tactic that I have had some outrageous success with. Huge possession numbers and a real attacking threat. He does use 2 CM's rather than DM's, but he has balanced it very nicely and my defence has been rock solid.

http://football-manager.forumcommunity.net/?t=58319218

You will have to use google translate or something. I use the 4231 version rather than the 4411, and I don't find it any less effective.

Hope this provides you with some reference to success.

So if I put them in the midfield strata I should be looking at playing either a CF-S or DLF-S. I hope I can still get them to take part in the attacking transitions and scoring goals. That was always my biggest concern with pulling them back that they would leave my striker too isolated and the my attacking transitions would just fall apart if they are in midfield strata.

Like anything it depends what you see, full game coverage is good as you kicking the ball to your ST who is isolated and then goes dribbling towards the wing but has no one near him probably won't be a highlight unless some miracle happens that results in a chance (or they counter attack you for a chance).

How about playing Wingers in the midfield strata instead of wide midfielders. I know I will loose some of the defensive contributions because a wide midfielder helps more with defending than a winger. But wingers would want to get to byline and cross more because I think the crossing instructions is hard coded into their role and duty. If I playing with CF S OR DLF S and CM A coming from deep they might be crossing into the box with no players there to finish moves. Just wanted to get your thoughts on this really

Using Wingers instead of WM would change your way of creating chances the same way using Wingers instead of IF would, so it depends if thats what you want to do. There is no "right" answer, just make sure the pieces fit the big picture.

I don't agree that a WM is better defensively than a W assuming using the same player and duty. I think the defensive contribution depends on the attributes of the player and the mentality they have. The in possession instructions only affect you defensively or in transitions by setting risk taking and how far from there position they might be (vertically or laterally) which might leave space to be attacked if you lose the ball.

There are plenty of ways to link up with the front quartet. A deeper AMC, a more aggresive DM, more aggresive fullbacks, mentality etc.

I would start with something simple:

Control/Attacking-Fluid(Keeps you more compact, so there are few less yards between the defend and attacking strata)

SK-S(since the mentality already gives you a high D-line)

2xCD

2xWB-S(they are more aggresive then FB-S yet they don't have an attacking mentality, help at linking)

That would be my defence. Now on the DM strata, one of them has to link up. I think going for a playmaker is not that great as you anyway want to give the ball to the front four as soon as possible, and they will most likely be the only ones assisting and scoring.

So i would go with something like

Anchorman + DM-S

or

DM-D + DM-S

DM-D is a bit more aggresive than the A, closes down a bit more, but also covers a lot more space which might turn to be useful when WBs go forward.

On the front quartet it's up to you, but i certainly think either the AMC or both AML/R should be on support to link.

Have you considered using BBM alongside Anchorman ? BBM does his job defensively, provides link bcs of his running, and has an attacking input layering your attack coming late to thw box to support attack or try a long shot from outside..

You should then have creativity in AMC position..

There's an interesting article somewhere on line (dont have link as at work) that describes Guardiola's use of the "Double 10" both in attack and in Defence. Its is basically a DM(d) or Anchorman in the DM central slot with a B2B im the CM slot slightly to the side of the pitch you want to overland and then an AM/AP in the central AM slot. I think this would work quite well on FM and allow an overload/underload for building up attacks/switching play and also mean runner(s) into the box while still giving the Double Pivot defensive cover.

Such as:

------------------------------------------------------

-----------------------A(d)--------------------------

---------------BBM(s)------------------------------

----------------------AM(a)-------------------------

in the middle of the field.

Much like James9 I've started playing with a 4-2DM-3-1, with my three in the AM strata. I'm playing:

GK: G(D)

RB: FB(S)

RCB: CD(D)

LCB: CD(D)

LB: WB(A)

RDM: REG(S)

LDM: DM(D)

RAM: W(A)

CAM: AP(S)

LAM: IF(S)

ST: CF(A)

TIs and mentality I'm still playing about with. In pre-season now and experimenting with Control, Flexible, Close Down More, Offside Trap, Push Slightly Higher Up, Shorter Passing, and Play out of Defence.

WB(A) and W(A) provide width, AP(S) drops deep and links with the REG(S), and also getting good interplay between the CF(A) and the IF(S).

I'll be following this thread with interest, especially as I'm not as good with the TIs as a lot of the mods/users are here. Specifically I'm unsure about standard or fluid as team shape, and possibly thinking about dropping the push slightly higher up TI.

Recently i have been using the 4231 wide and had the same problem as op, now my midfield 2 are a dlp/D in the dmc strata, and a mc /S in the cm position no pis except close down more tackle harder on the mc, works really well with barry dlp and mcarthy mc with everton,

Still trying to get this 4231 Deep to work. I am not giving up as yet. After reading some more information on Dortmund and Tuchel's tactic I have decided to try and replicate the Dortmund set up with Arsenal. Thomas Tuchel calls is style JUEGO DE POSICION (POSSESSION WITH PURPOSE). I have decided on using a Half Back and Regista as my DMC pair. I need someone to link the midfield to attack and REGISTA does offer the more than the other roles in DMV position. In the AMC I am using a Trequartista and I think Ozil suits this role well. With is PPM comes deep to get ball he should link quite well with the Regista. I need to figure out how to get the AMR/AML and Striker to all fit and link up with the team. I do not need gem isolated from the play.

What I see is that the Trequartista is dropping deep into the midfield to link play. This could also be because Ozil has come deep to get ball PPM. I may need to give my Regista some PI such as get further forward so that he can link the play better from the defence to midfield. I still cannot get the front AMR/AML and striker to link up with the ray of the team. I have the AMR/AML playing as Inside Forward Support and the Striker is a Advance Forward.

This is so hard to get right and I feel like giving up I am hoping someone can help me before I throw the towel in

Much like James9 I've started playing with a 4-2DM-3-1, with my three in the AM strata. I'm playing:

GK: G(D)

RB: FB(S)

RCB: CD(D)

LCB: CD(D)

LB: WB(A)

RDM: REG(S)

LDM: DM(D)

RAM: W(A)

CAM: AP(S)

LAM: IF(S)

ST: CF(A)

TIs and mentality I'm still playing about with. In pre-season now and experimenting with Control, Flexible, Close Down More, Offside Trap, Push Slightly Higher Up, Shorter Passing, and Play out of Defence.

I've been using the same player roles, except with an AF(a) instead of CF(a). I'll also use three AMCs instead of AML/R and it works nicely too. If your REG isn't doing it for you, you can always use an RPM instead. I find the RPM gets a few more goals, while the REG focuses more on passing.

I've been trying to make a successful 4231 deep.

I'm set up slightly different, in that I've got the 3 in the mc strata.

I'm playing control, fluid with 4 ti's : roam from position, play out of defence, whipped crosses and close down much more.

The set up is:

GK D

WB A with pi stay wider

CD D

CD D

WB A with pi play wider

RPM S

DM S

WM S with pi's to mimic a wide playmaker

CM S with pi roam from position and occasionally more risky passes

WM A with pi's to mimic an inside forward

DLF S with pi's to mimic a complete forward.

I like using the generic roles with pi's to mimic other roles as it gives me the option to remove them if things aren't working out. I also prefer to have only one playmaker role - I want the team to play through Lewis Cook in the rpm role.

It took me a while and a few different variations to get to these roles. I was proud of myself until I realised I'd just created a 4231 version of Cleon's 41221 from the art of possession thread!

Last season I won the Europa league and the league cup as Leeds and finished 4th in the prem.

Originally I was structured with short passing which worked to a degree - we were very tight at the back but didn't score many either. I did think about just adding more expressive but went for fluid and dropping short passing instead.

The challenge this season is that teams are a lot more cautious against me - half a dozen games in and we've got the joint best defensive record but one of the lowest goals scored. We're 4th though so not all bad but I want more goals.

I'm thinking of going attacking or altering the duties in the middle.

I'm thinking of giving CM A a try instead of CM S or at the very least adding the PI gets forward. This may leave the defence less supported which may mean a change of role for the roaming playmaker.

I've also thought of changing the right sided WM to more of an inside forward role.

Thoughts?