Trying to Understand My Tactics

I am another one of those who cries and pouts about this game. I've been playing since FM11 and I have had some success... followed by some demoralizing failures. I have read countless forum posts, articles and watched a bunch of youtube vids. What is demoralizing is when I watch or read someone take over a League 2 team and win the Champions League in 5 years. That's not me. I basically patch together various tidbits I have read and wing it. And because I don't fully grasp the complexities (well I am American) of the game, I don't do as well as I'd like.

I have managed a bunch of different teams and tried a bunch of formations. But I tend to like the 433 (The "V" formation) or 4231.

What I'd like to do is put my thoughts down, what I *think* I'm doing, what i *think* I want, and see if 1) that is actually happening and 2) if I can figure out what is wrong. Hopefully this might either help someone else who is struggling. And hopefully one of you masters of tactics can give me some tips.

Anyways, I finally tried managing in the US. I used the editor and scrapped the MLS and created my own league. I took over LA.... and got frustrated again. I still am managing the US National Team and that is where this post is going.

My tactic familiarity is awkward (due to being a national team)

Control

Fluid

Retain Possession, Play out of Defense

We are in March 2020 playing Panama today (as in right now, I'm typing this up as I'm about to start the game). In 3-4 days we play Mexico again and i don't remember the last time i beat Mexico. I expect I will beat Panama. But I want to.... actually create a good tactic.

What I want? I want to win 2-0 every game. I want a brick wall in defense. And a slow, solid possession game that leads to quick incisive attacking in the final 3rd. Not even sure if thats possible.

Ok, what I think I'm doing here. The TI's here are basically to keep possession more. It seems like anytime i don't pick these 2 TI's, my possession is 35-40%. I could lower tempo but I'm guessing these 2 TI's will give me enough possession.

I want my two center backs to defend, I almost always have a DLP on defend. Basically i see him as a defensive midfielder who will support the defense but will be the first point of contact when we recover the ball. I have pretty much always used a BWM(S) (but Michael Bradley is old) so I figure a BBM ... well I figure a BBM is kinda like a BWM, someone who will help out fefensively and should help support the attack. Trapp and Hyndman will hopefully get the attack going. The AP will then I hope be the focal point in getting the ball to. And he should be dishing the ball to the IF (my best player), the CF or the winger at AMR. Then Yedlin at RB should be getting deep too. I *think* that should give me good attacking options.

Ok, I'm going to go play the game.

Ok here is my first goal against Panama.

Yedlin (RB) has the ball, and he is advanced which makes sense. He passes it back to Trapp (DLP). Trapp has 2 real options, either to Gil (AMC AP) or to Hyndman (BBM). He passes to Gil who then passes to the striker Wright with a nice strike from 18 yards.

Huh. Yedlin to Trapp to Gil strikes again.

This is about 10-15 secs after a throw in. Yedlin (at the bottom right) passed to Trapp (far left), who passed to Gil who dribbled out a bit. Then made a nice pass to Pulisic for the goal. I was wondering if Pulisic was playing.

Defensively we dominated Panama. I think they had 2-3 shots.

Then I just finished the Mexico match. Ugh.

Since the game was 3 days after the Panama match, I rotated a number of positions.

That is what I started.

This is Mexico's first big chance. Their striker (the most advanced Mexico player) passed back to Giovani and moved up. Then Giovani made a beautiful pass to the striker.

Not sure what defensively I could do about that. But it hit the post.

Then this happens....

Giovani got the ball at midfield. One of my center backs went after him. Then Giovani went down the left flank, you can see him with the ball at the top. He blows by my center back and crosses to Vela who floats into the box for an easy goal.

Then they make scoring look easy.

Vela to the guy in the center to Lozano. Easy.

I gave up a 3rd goal and lost 3-0. The 3rd goal kinda reminded me of the 2nd goal. How much of it is their players are better than mine?

How much of it is I should have played Counter? I actually mid-way pushed my line back but it didn't seem to help.

I didn't have much of an attack though my possession was 56-44 in my favor.

I have pretty much always used a BWM(S) (but Michael Bradley is old) so I figure a BBM ... well I figure a BBM is kinda like a BWM, someone who will help out fefensively and should help support the attack.

You already have four players really advanced up the pitch, ideally you should have the CM roles (both of them) as players who stay back and are quite conservative if not, when one goes forward that means the other one has to cover the whole of the midfield on his own which is impossible. Ideally the two central midfielders hang back protecting the middle of the pitch and this allows for quickly building play again and recycling possession. There is no need at all to have one of them attack minded, it will only cause you issues.

Looking at your screenshots in post two, I can already see that Mexico took advantage of this and the positioning of your midfield is terrible and there's far too much space to cover. Good teams will just exploit you time and time again.

I wrote this a while back and while it's about a slightly different role (dlp/bwm) the principles are the same with your dlp/bbm with the exception your bbm will be a lot more advanced than a bwm ever will be due to him going further forward. Take this into consideration when reading this below as it should emphasise just how important having 2 static players in the middle is.

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The 4-2-3-1 on Football Manager for the past few versions seems to cause people all kinds of headaches. Being a moderator on the SI Games forums, I’d have to say that this particular formation covers more than half the issues I see posted on there. People seem to use it but struggle to identify just how important the two central midfielders are. This means people pick roles that just don’t suit what is needed of the players. So hopefully these two little pieces of analysis I’ve done quite recently will make you think about which roles and duties you use on these two players and should highlight, what happens when one player is more aggressive than the other.

Here is the first bit of analysis I did where the user couldn’t understand why his midfield was getting overwhelmed and how he could be vulnerable to counter attacks.

Straight away after 25 seconds I think it is, I see it happening;

Your ball winning midfielder should be more in the area where it’s marked 1 as that’s the side he is playing on supposedly. But look how far across and aggressive he’s been when closing down the ball. It means the area he should be in is totally unmarked and free space for the opposition to use if they want. He went wild and charged the person on the ball yet the ball was passed around him. Not only is he not covering the space but in one pass he’s been took out of the game for this move. I watched the rest of the move and they actually get into your box and have a shot due to the BWM’s recklessness, he’s left your entire midfield exposed and the defenders tried to make up for it but that made them out of position too.

This is taken a minute or so after and shows another counter by the opposition and this time it exposes both your central midfielder. Just look at how high up the pitch they are. Considering the central players should be more like holding players due to the sheer aggressiveness of the shape you use when they get caught out high up the pitch they have free run to the edge of your area. The DLP was actually marking someone but he’s now left them to try to run back and deal with the other thread because the BWM was high up the pitch too. When the BWM is caught out of position it makes a domino effect and someone else somewhere in your tactic as to make up the ground and deal with the threat’s he should be dealing with. I’m less than 2 minutes into the game and it’s already a disaster.

You’ve just lost possession in this screenshot and the BWM is placed alright here. But look what he does next and how far he chases down the player who has just won the ball;

Look how far across he’s gone!! Not only that but he has allowed someone to run straight past him because he’s that focused on the ball instead of tracking the runner. This has left you exposed really bad because you now have 6 players behind the ball once the opposition makes one simple pass one second later.

Another move and he pushed up to close the ball down and yet again was passed around as he went to make the challenge. Look at your DLP he has to deal with the two players who he is in the middle of and the player who is just about to receive the ball. Whoever he decided to mark here or track will be the wrong option because he can’t be in 3 places at one time. All this because the BWM closes down extremely heavy.

Can you see the issues I was talking about earlier in the thread now? All the above screenshot were taken from the opening 3 minutes. In total for the first half alone I counted the BWM being at fault or caught out of position 17 times before I stopped counting.

That’s what I saw from that specific game and that is what happens when you use those two roles together, it doesn’t matter which way around you have the duties the same thing will still happen due to the ball winning midfielder closing down too much, even on a defend duty. While playing a high aggressive pressing game the effects of these issues might be lessened somewhat but they still exist it doesn’t solve the issue. All that happens is you move all the players that bit closer to each other and still risk being undone by counter attacks.

The thing to remember with the central duo is you don’t want them chasing all over the pitch and having to cover everywhere. You need the other players around them to still track back and pick up runners if not the two midfielders will be run ragged and no matter the roles or duties you use, they’ll all suffer the same fate. Ideally the two players should be more focused on holding their position both in defensive and attacking phases as you’d already have more than enough players in the final third due to the shape you have used.

So the idea behind them is that they sit in the middle and recycle possession and allow you to build attacks as well as being well placed to deal with any kind of counter attacks or attacks through the centre. If one of them is more aggressive than the other than this can leave you exposed and cause a huge gaps to appear when one player leaves his position and adds added pressure and responsibilities for his midfield partner. Ideally both should be similar in what they do and play as a team and not individuals.

I recently wrote some more analysis for someone else in the past week. This particular user was adamant his midfield was doing what he wanted and that the above behaviour didn’t happen. But these screenshots are took from a PKM of one of his games he uploaded. He claimed that was he saw happening was due to game breaking bugs but it wasn’t really. It was just he didn’t want to admit his midfield was far from balanced. I’m aware there are issues with defenders though but this particular issue was nothing to do with that. It was due to what his midfield was doing the reasons behind why his central defender pairing was acting strangely as it added extra pressure and responsibilities for them to do.

Let’s take a look what I wrote for him. I should add though that my tone isn’t the best with this person as they weren’t listening to anyone and was being very stubborn and just didn’t want to accept what he had, was not a balanced midfield.

This first screenshot is a classic example of the issues I was talking about before. Your central midfielder who is on an attack duty is basically a AMC in this game and is very high most of the time when attacking because you play control and are pushed up. This means that in defensive situations he struggles to get back to his MC position to help out and do his defensive requirements. That in itself isn’t a bad thing if you have players who can cover for him which you do.

However that covering playing is the DLP who is supposed to be your holding player. But because the CM was caught out high up the pitch and you are playing a very heavy pressing game, the DLP isn’t sitting and offering protection to the back four. What he is actually doing is leaving his position time and time again to cover for the CM. Now when this happens the DLP is leaving his so-called zone and chasing down players he shouldn’t have to deal with yet. He’s supposed to be a last line of defence before they get to your defenders. But because of the ground and space he is trying to cover he’s not actually doing the job he should be.

This isn’t helped at all by the fact the BWM is also caught out high up the pitch too. He also has a dilemma here because he has two players to track so whichever option he chooses will still be the wrong one because he’ll leave a player free. The free player wouldn’t be an issue if the DLP was actually in his position and doing his job. But the fact that the DLP is covering for the defensive frailties of the CM it becomes a big issues. I’ve seen this kind of situation happen a lot during the match, it’s not an isolated incident it’s a regular occurrence.

To add icing to the cake, the opposition’s striker who should be being picked up by the player you use in the defensive midfield spot – the DLP or at the very least being closer to him in terms of positioning. It now means someone else has to do this job and who does that fall to? You’ve guessed it, the central defender partnership. So if the ball is played to the striker what happens? It will mean one or both defenders will step up to deal with the threat. But this is so bad mainly for one reason and one reason only. Look how high up the field this could actually occur. It’s on the halfway line almost. That is a lot of space to be exploited in behind the defence.

All this is happening because the DLP is having to do multiple jobs and it all stems from the CM and BWM not doing what they should be doing. This means it has a massive knock on effect elsewhere through the tactic as other players then have to do much more than deal with their own responsibilities.

That’s the key thing here, it’s the balance. You think on paper the balance is right and for a less aggressive tactic maybe it would be better. But in your current set up with the current setting it’s a shambles. None of the midfield trio are doing any of the defensive jobs you think they are. From an attacking point it works I guess to a certain extent but even then I don’t think it works that well. Your shots on target ratio is awful, there is little space and movement being created and when it does happen it all comes from a central position. It’s very predictable play.

This time a slightly different scenario but still more of the same thing really. The BWM goes running to close down like a headless chicken due to his naturally heavy closing down and with your TI’s to press more, he has even more incentive to rush around. There is no real need to go charging in here and if he holds his position better and is more wise than he’d hold position and he’d actually be able to deal with the situation easier. Because he’d be able to position himself to deal with both players, the one on the ball and the one marked with number 1. It doesn’t matter is Hermann even drove forward with the ball as he’d not have any passing options because the BWM could deal with the player marked with 1 and track him easily. But no this doesn’t happen.

But a little later in the move and the screenshot looks a bit like this (this is about 3 seconds after the picture above btw)

Now the opposition’s striker might not have any actual real option here but that’s not really the point.Remember in one of the replies above when you told me that the holding player the DLP should be able to deal with situations, how’s it working out in this screenshot? Your so-called holding player is the highest player out of all three of them. So what you think is happening and what is actually happening are two completely different things.

The CM who is on attack is useless when it comes to the defensive side of things, his start position for any kind of recovery is always too high to begin with. Basically you’ve got two midfielders in the DLP and BWM for defensive responsibilities but the BWM is a bit of a liability at times too due to his closing down. This means at times throughout the job the DLP is having to abandon his game to cover for the other two-time and time again. This then in turn means the defenders are having to cover for the DLP. It’s like a gigantic domino effect, if one player doesn’t do what he should be doing then this ripples through the rest of the side and impact what the other players actually do.

One of the actual few times throughout the match that the CM is actually in a decent position. The issue here though is the BWM, he’s again charging down far too rapidly to win the ball back and when this doesn’t happen the opposition just pass straight through him. This means that yet again the DLP is stepping up far too early to deal with a threat that shouldn’t even be a threat. You are creating issues for yourself here when there is no need whatsoever. When the DLP steps up and fails to win the ball then the opposition pass to their striker and again you’re on the back foot and the defenders then have to step up and deal with it.

My favourite screenshot though has to be this next one;

This is the build up to the goal that loses you the game. Look at your holding player, what’s he holding exactly? The CM and BWM are already sprinting trying to get back as they know you’ve been found out and are being hit with a good counter attacking move, one which could have been avoided if you wasn’t as aggressive btw. But you’re setting yourself up for these types of situations time and time again.

I could provide loads more examples all showing the same things too. I think so far I’ve counted about 32 times the midfield have been at fault or not doing what they should be doing during the first 60 minutes of the game. Have a think about that for a moment. This also means then when the players do get back in time they are all very narrow and all in the same kind of space.

Still think your midfield is balanced and not adding extra pressure to the defence?

So the next time you set up a 4-2-3-1 remember what you need the central midfielders to do and pick roles that don’t leave you exposed with just one player having to cover the entire pitch. If one player has to cover for someone else then that has a massive knock-on effect elsewhere.

Thank you.

My next match is against Guatemala. I win and reach the 5th round of World Cup qualifying. And we *should* win.

My MC's best roles are DLP or AP with one having BWM as his best role. Does playing 2 DLP's make sense? I'm going to try it. Looking through the possible roles, it seems like only DLP and CM(d) would sit. The rest would have them roam alot. I should win this game but I am going to try to watch my 2 central mid's in this game.

A BWM(D) also has Hold Position switched on + I have seen many a thread bestow the virtues of the role in a 2, generally coupled with either a CM or DLP(S).

Hm, maybe I'll try BWM(d).

Played Guatemala, won 2-0. I tried watching the midfielders. They seemed to play pretty well but I really need to have them play a better team. I have Mexico and Paraguay (ranked 19th) coming up so i will see how we do then.

This first thing I noticed was their 3 players kicking it back and back around my 2 midfielders. It was their 2 center mids and right wing. So, I was outnumbered. They ended up passing to the left wing and it fizzled but I wanted to note about being outnumbered. I am thinking in going back to the 433.

This following one is the one I was more concerned about as it looked like Mexico over again. I suspect if I was playing Mexico, they would have scored. One of my center mids (Zelalem) closed down on the guy with the ball. Posas passed it back to the top left of the shot. Who then proceeded to make a quick pass to the striker at the top of the screen.

One of my center backs defended it well but I bet against Mexico, I'm down 1-0.

Maybe I'll try the BWM(d) or I was thinking of just going back to having a defensive mid.

Lost 1-0 to Mexico.

I had Hyndman as a DLP(d) throughout the game and he seemed ok.

I had Trapp at BWM(d) in the first half.

Trapp was in la-la land as Hyndman is the only one in position and one of the center backs had to come up to defend Corona here.

Again Trapp is off somewhere. Vela passed to Corona who passed to the striker. They didn't score luckily.

Here everyone is at the top of the screen doing who knows what and Trapp is closing down the guy with the ball leaving all that space in the middle. Just a muddle. They almost scored here as well.

So at halftime I switched trapp to CM(d)

15 secs into the start of the half and Trapp is still lost in nowheresville.

Trapp was always ahead of Hyndman and he seemed in position some of the time.

In the 88th minute, Mexico had the ball, Trapp was closing the guy down, he passed it to an open guy down the right wing. Cross. Goal.

I think I might go back to Counter and/or 4-1-2-3DM

A BWM(D) also has Hold Position switched on + I have seen many a thread bestow the virtues of the role in a 2, generally coupled with either a CM or DLP(S).

In a 4231 it doesn't work and I explained why in the analysis above. The closing down is too much and then it causes the issues I highlight and what the post above highlights.

I recently tried a 4-2-3-1 with two defensive midfielders. I mixed a DM(d) or AM(d) with either a DM(s), DLP(s), REG(s), or RPM(s). All combinations proved more stable defensively than using two central midfielders. If you can get away with using a REG or RPM for one of your defensive midfielders then that plays best in terms of linking play from back to front. The other option is to bring some/all of the attacking midfielders back to central midfield (or use a 4-4-1-1).

I also prefer putting the more attacking fullback/wingback on the same side as the inside forward. I feel this works better in terms of potential overlaps and combination play than pairing the attacking back with the winger.

In a 4231 it doesn't work and I explained why in the analysis above. The closing down is too much and then it causes the issues I highlight and what the post above highlights.

Hi Cleon,

In your opinion, the combo in the midfield must be with two players with defensive duty, or we could go with a suport-defense combination?

For example CM(s)+DLP(d) or CM(d)+DLP(s).

I know that it's hard to analyse this, without the rest of the setup, and the roles of the widers player (fullbacks and wingers) are important here, but i was talking in general terms.

You already have four players really advanced up the pitch, ideally you should have the CM roles (both of them) as players who stay back and are quite conservative if not, when one goes forward that means the other one has to cover the whole of the midfield on his own which is impossible. Ideally the two central midfielders hang back protecting the middle of the pitch and this allows for quickly building play again and recycling possession. There is no need at all to have one of them attack minded, it will only cause you issues.

Hi Cleon,

In Pairs and Combinations it suggests that these 2 holding midfielders could be set up as a CM (d) and a BBM (s) but do you think looking at the OP's previous analysis this basically leaves just the CM (d) holding? Just trying to get my head round what should theoretically work.

I am playing Curacao. I'm down 2-0 at the 25 minute mark.

I have decided to try a 4123dm like so.

I've tried to be overly defensive. I have put my fullbacks on Defend. I have both on "Close Down More" which are the only TI's or PI's I have. Playing Counter/Structured. Anchor Man, DLP(d). I should be playing pretty solidly defensively... or i would have thought.

In the above screenshot, Alvarado is my LB who is out of position because my DLP was out of position. I think he tried to close down a few seconds ago and is just trying to get back into position. The midfielder that is most advanced is the DLP. Bonevacia passes to the open guy down the wing. Alvarado actually closes the guy down, but the guy blows past him. Cross. Of course neither of my center backs decide to mark the striker that kicks in the goal.... Urgh. I'm down 2-0 to Curacao.

I'm trying to work this out. I'm guessing my PI on Alvarado which was intended to stop crosses is not working. Also, the Defend duty is evidently not doing anything either. If he is going to be this useless defending I might as well put him on support or attack. What am I doing wrong here?

Then my center backs just watch the striker. Since I'm on counter, should I push the line up? Should i have them mark this guy by an opposition instruction? Is Curacao's players just better than mine?

The DLP being out of position probably didn't help things either. Not sure what I can do about that. Watching the play again, the DLP was out of position but the middle of the field was ok, it was Alvarado coming out of position that opened up the cross.

I recently tried a 4-2-3-1 with two defensive midfielders. I mixed a DM(d) or AM(d) with either a DM(s), DLP(s), REG(s), or RPM(s). All combinations proved more stable defensively than using two central midfielders. If you can get away with using a REG or RPM for one of your defensive midfielders then that plays best in terms of linking play from back to front. The other option is to bring some/all of the attacking midfielders back to central midfield (or use a 4-4-1-1).

I also prefer putting the more attacking fullback/wingback on the same side as the inside forward. I feel this works better in terms of potential overlaps and combination play than pairing the attacking back with the winger.

I think I tried a 4231 with DM's once in a save awhile ago. I couldn't get the midfield to link up though I'm sure that was all my fault. Maybe I'll try this. I have thought of just moving everyone back but playing with a national team, I'm at the mercy of the players I have. My best player is an AML.

After reading your note on the IF, attacking fullback, I actually just did that. Thanks. I'm still wary of putting the fullbacks to attack since it seems to leave the wings exposed though.

Or was I being too conservative?

I switched to Control/Fluid. Removed the PI's on the FB's. Put the LB on attack, RB on support and immediately scored 3 goals. Go Figure.

This is another of those screenshots whereas I have a Anchor Man and a DLP(d), they still get out of position which forces the RB to close down just leaving loads of room down the wing. They luckily didn't score but probably should have. This was after my changes so I can see some mistakes being made and this seems to be one.

Hi Cleon,

In Pairs and Combinations it suggests that these 2 holding midfielders could be set up as a CM (d) and a BBM (s) but do you think looking at the OP's previous analysis this basically leaves just the CM (d) holding? Just trying to get my head round what should theoretically work.

In a 4231? This only applies to 4231. But if Pairs and combo states this is fine for that formation then it's definitely wrong. You only have to look at the analysis I did to see why.

In a 4231? This only applies to 4231. But if Pairs and combo states this is fine for that formation then it's definitely wrong. You only have to look at the analysis I did to see why.

Thanks Cleon.

Yeah at the back there are templates for a whole heap of formations and how to possibly set them up. That's why I also asked about the 4123 dm (in another thread entitled pairs and Combinations FM16). I often start with those templates as a guideline for how to set up a tactic without completely messing it up. The 4231 suggests a CM (d) and a BBM ( s ). I'm not criticising the booklet because it has been a lifesaver for accessing an increasingly complex game but I like to clarify these things so I don't continue to take it as gospel and wonder why it doesn't work.

Just to throw a spanner in the works

I use CM-d AP-a and AM-s as my midfield trio and it works a treat. Like a 4-1-4-1 going forward. Never really bought this 2 defensive duties in the middle idea

Just to throw a spanner in the works

I use CM-d AP-a and AM-s as my midfield trio and it works a treat. Like a 4-1-4-1 going forward. Never really bought this 2 defensive duties in the middle idea

Not buying it that you don't have the issues I mention above, it's impossible not to have them. No-one said it doesn't work without but if you don't have two players covering the midfield you get exposed. I could show you it happening several times match in any of your saved games if you want me to show you. Just pick one upload the PKM and I'll show you the examples using your own game. You don't have to buy anything, its a visual fact. Some people either turn a blind eye to it happening or don't pay attention to it happening. But rest assured it happens to everyone who uses a 4231 and uses an attacking role for one of the MC's. It stresses the other one and gives him too much space and too much pitch for one person to cover.

Also no-one said they have to be defensive, but they have to hold shape and keep their position, RPM, BBM, BWM, CMA, REG etc all move away from their positions.

I use 442 with these roles:

AF(a) F9

WP(s) BBM(s) MC(d) WM(a)

WB(a) CD(d) CD(d) FB(s)

GK(d)

I'm still in preseason playing against weaker sides to build up morale, so I'm not really sure whether I'm going to experience issues with my midfield against stronger sides later on (I'm playing Leeds).

I'd like to have my attacker to drop deep when I don't have the ball and my midfield player to run forward beyond him when he wins the ball (happened quite a few times).

So I've set my F9 to man mark opposition's DM or MC player (and tackle harder and close down more) to get him dropping deep (I'm going to train him for that PPM) so he could get overlapped by BBM (I've set my BBM to get further forward, also, he has that PPM).

I've started building my formation with CM(a) and BWM(d) but it was a disaster. I've noticed this immediately watching the game. I went to use Prozone and my BWM had zero interceptions and zero balls won, so use that tool as well.

To reduce possible issues with my BBM, I play narrow, close down more and mark tighter. I also have wide playmaker on the left who's on support and cuts inside to take BBM's place on the pitch when BBM goes forward). I've also reduced CM(d)'s closing down to minimum and have instructed my fullback on the right side to sit narrower (he's on support, I try to achieve width on the right flank with WM(a), I might use a winger there, idk?).

I went on with my writing, sorry;

so what do you thing about my instructions, I'd like to hear both critics and suggestions,

tnx

Have been playing my save for 4 seasons now and have tried everything to get my forwards scoring but nothing. My top scorers are consistently deeper midfielder and one time a winger with no more than 20 goals (and even that is a stretch). The team plays how i want it to after struggling to find the shape i wanted for 2-3 seasons i just don't have that 20+ goalscorer that i need to get to the next level. Its definitely not down to quality of forward as they are both world class and scored for fun at other teams i just can't seem to get them firing. My current shape and style of play is as follows:

--------------------gk--------------------

FB(Au)-----CB(D)----CB(D)-------FB(Au)

--------------------HB(D)----------------

---------------CM(S)---RPM(S)----------

W(A)-------------------------------W(S)

---------------------P(A)-----------------

TI - slightly higher defence, play slightly wider. Standard, Balanced

PI- Wingers whip in crosses

I did have all the TI's active until last season which was confusing everyone and since i have read all of the threads on what the different ones actually translate to found that i can ask the team to do what i want to by not over thinking it and am pleased with the style of football at last but still no consistency with my striker scoring.

Started the season with an AF but he kept running the channels which gets in the space the wingers are meant to be attacking. So tried complete forward and he never got in the box to get on the end of crosses. He is currently a poacher as i thought that the best one to just stay between the posts and try to get on the end of crosses from the wingers or through balls from the play maker. This doesn't happen and it just ends up with the opposite winger getting on the end of crosses and the play maker can't find him with enough space to shoot.

Any ideas are welcome as its the only position i'm struggling with so little tweaks to it hopefully won't effect the rest of my team.

Have been playing my save for 4 seasons now and have tried everything to get my forwards scoring but nothing. My top scorers are consistently deeper midfielder and one time a winger with no more than 20 goals (and even that is a stretch). The team plays how i want it to after struggling to find the shape i wanted for 2-3 seasons i just don't have that 20+ goalscorer that i need to get to the next level. Its definitely not down to quality of forward as they are both world class and scored for fun at other teams i just can't seem to get them firing. My current shape and style of play is as follows:

--------------------gk--------------------

FB(Au)-----CB(D)----CB(D)-------FB(Au)

--------------------HB(D)----------------

---------------CM(S)---RPM(S)----------

W(A)-------------------------------W(S)

---------------------P(A)-----------------

TI - slightly higher defence, play slightly wider. Standard, Balanced

PI- Wingers whip in crosses

I did have all the TI's active until last season which was confusing everyone and since i have read all of the threads on what the different ones actually translate to found that i can ask the team to do what i want to by not over thinking it and am pleased with the style of football at last but still no consistency with my striker scoring.

Started the season with an AF but he kept running the channels which gets in the space the wingers are meant to be attacking. So tried complete forward and he never got in the box to get on the end of crosses. He is currently a poacher as i thought that the best one to just stay between the posts and try to get on the end of crosses from the wingers or through balls from the play maker. This doesn't happen and it just ends up with the opposite winger getting on the end of crosses and the play maker can't find him with enough space to shoot.

Any ideas are welcome as its the only position i'm struggling with so little tweaks to it hopefully won't effect the rest of my team.

Think of a real life team that plays with a similar type of formation. The obvious one I guess is Barcelona.

The player who plays in FM's STC position for Barcelona is Suarez. From FM's description of what a Poacher does, and how it plays in a match, is that how Suarez plays? It isn't is it. Suarez is far more involved and works harder for the team than FM's Poacher role would allow him to do.

Additionally, Suarez has a lot of support. Messi and Neymar form a deadly trio with him, and Rakitic + Iniesta aren't exactly shy in getting forward either. Now compare that to your players roles - you have 2 wingers who will basically stay wide to cross the ball and two central midfield roles who have room for improvement when it comes to lung busting runs forward.

The upshot of that is, Suarez for Barcelona enjoys an awful lot of close support and is rarely isolated, whereas your Poacher most probably is the opposite. It isn't just about picking the right role for the striker, it's about picking the right roles for everyone else around him as well.

Now, I'm not saying copy Barcelona, just consider how you can keep your striker from being isolated by changing both his role and the roles of other players around him. Yes he needs to score, but he also needs close support.

Think of a real life team that plays with a similar type of formation. The obvious one I guess is Barcelona.

The player who plays in FM's STC position for Barcelona is Suarez. From FM's description of what a Poacher does, and how it plays in a match, is that how Suarez plays? It isn't is it. Suarez is far more involved and works harder for the team than FM's Poacher role would allow him to do.

Additionally, Suarez has a lot of support. Messi and Neymar form a deadly trio with him, and Rakitic + Iniesta aren't exactly shy in getting forward either. Now compare that to your players roles - you have 2 wingers who will basically stay wide to cross the ball and two central midfield roles who have room for improvement when it comes to lung busting runs forward.

The upshot of that is, Suarez for Barcelona enjoys an awful lot of close support and is rarely isolated, whereas your Poacher most probably is the opposite. It isn't just about picking the right role for the striker, it's about picking the right roles for everyone else around him as well.

Now, I'm not saying copy Barcelona, just consider how you can keep your striker from being isolated by changing both his role and the roles of other players around him. Yes he needs to score, but he also needs close support.

Cheers for the reply herne. I understand what you are saying but from looking at extended highlights of the game and trying to see where my moves are breaking down it seems to be that my team get to the final third and the striker just stands still in the area and when the ball come in he is never attacking it. With Barcas Front three they all seem to rotate round and Suarez drops off and moves to the wide areas as well which i'm not looking for my forward to do. All i want him to do is find pockets of space in the box and stay very central. Doesn't really need to contribute to play in the build up and just try to concentrate on scoring. The wingers need to stay out wide and get lots of crosses in whilst the other gets in the box with the forward (which they now do). The midfielders are there to dictate and the roaming play maker can find space and get to the edge of tehe box (which he does).

The only thing that isn't happening is the striker finding any space or scoring. He seems to shoot from miles out even as a poacher. Just wondering if anyone had had success with 1 striker and what type of role they used to get the most out of him scoring and nothing else?

I'm playing a one striker formation at the moment. It's something I never do usually. I tend to prefer a strike partnership, but I've found that I'm having great success with a Poacher up front by himself, and a Trequarista behind him. I guess it depends on the players fitting into their roles. But it's working for me greatly (at the moment).

I'm playing a 4231, with a counter attack mentality. I don't play any defensive midfielders, and my midfield 2 are a DLP and B2B midfielder. I was predicted to be in for a relegation battle at the start of the season, but with 12 games to go I'm in second place. Greatly overachieving really.

My poacher doesn't look anything out of the ordinary attribute wise, but he has a rating of 17 for flair, and something like 15 for work rate. I think these could be making a big difference in the amount of chances he's converting.

Cheers for the reply herne. I understand what you are saying but from looking at extended highlights of the game and trying to see where my moves are breaking down it seems to be that my team get to the final third and the striker just stands still in the area and when the ball come in he is never attacking it. With Barcas Front three they all seem to rotate round and Suarez drops off and moves to the wide areas as well which i'm not looking for my forward to do. All i want him to do is find pockets of space in the box and stay very central. Doesn't really need to contribute to play in the build up and just try to concentrate on scoring. The wingers need to stay out wide and get lots of crosses in whilst the other gets in the box with the forward (which they now do). The midfielders are there to dictate and the roaming play maker can find space and get to the edge of tehe box (which he does).

The only thing that isn't happening is the striker finding any space or scoring. He seems to shoot from miles out even as a poacher. Just wondering if anyone had had success with 1 striker and what type of role they used to get the most out of him scoring and nothing else?

And there's your problem .

You don't really have anyone running from deep or attacking from the wings, so your Poacher is stuck by himself in the box surrounded by defenders - where's the space that you want your Poacher to find exactly? There isn't any, because you don't really have any of his team mates pulling defenders out of position to help create space for him.

On top of that, a Poacher isn't the most mobile of strikers, so trying to find little pockets of space in a penalty area filled with defenders is next to impossible.

If you want your striker to find space, you need to help create it for him - and you do that by getting more players in and around the box to pull defenders out of position. Imagine how successful Barca would be (to continue the analogy) if Messi and Neymar stayed out wide and just pinged crosses into Suarez without anyone else supporting him. I exaggerate a little, but essentially that's what you are doing at the moment.

Now again, there's no need to copy Barcelona, just consider how you may be able to get additional support to your striker to help create space for him. Perhaps change one of your wingers to an IF or AP. Maybe switch a midfielder to a BBM or CM(A). And/or swap your Poacher to something a little more mobile or creative (if you have the player). Little changes can make a big difference.

And there's your problem .

You don't really have anyone running from deep or attacking from the wings, so your Poacher is stuck by himself in the box surrounded by defenders - where's the space that you want your Poacher to find exactly? There isn't any, because you don't really have any of his team mates pulling defenders out of position to help create space for him.

On top of that, a Poacher isn't the most mobile of strikers, so trying to find little pockets of space in a penalty area filled with defenders is next to impossible.

If you want your striker to find space, you need to help create it for him - and you do that by getting more players in and around the box to pull defenders out of position. Imagine how successful Barca would be (to continue the analogy) if Messi and Neymar stayed out wide and just pinged crosses into Suarez without anyone else supporting him. I exaggerate a little, but essentially that's what you are doing at the moment.

Now again, there's no need to copy Barcelona, just consider how you may be able to get additional support to your striker to help create space for him. Perhaps change one of your wingers to an IF or AP. Maybe switch a midfielder to a BBM or CM(A). And/or swap your Poacher to something a little more mobile or creative (if you have the player). Little changes can make a big difference.

Ok so stupid question time. I like the fact that my team has become very solid so don't want to lose too much of the defensive side of my tactic so if i were to say to the CM(S) to change to an attacking mentality would that mean he would get into the box and support the striker more but still get back into position when the ball is lost or does it not really change much and just put him on the front foot more? I understand what you are saying about the lack of space as two defenders are marking one but i got caught out on the counter a lot with two up front so don't want to get back into a team that concedes on the counter a lot. maybe changing the teams mentality down one to standard and then making the cm attacking so the rest of the team aren't as forward so when we lose the ball there's less space to counter? I'm happy to do either as if the team drops off a bit it will drag the defence out and open up space behind them and also more space for the striker in general even without the extra midfielder supporting him? Have tried quite a lot to get him scoring just not working as well. My strikers are Harry Kane or Embollo 4 seasons in so both good but different players

I'm playing Basel in the first season and I have a line up of

Sporar (CF-A)

Boetius (IF-S) Embolo (W-A)

Zuffi (AP-s) Bjarnason (B2B-S)

Xhaka (BWM-D)

Traore (FB-A) Djourou (CB-D) Suchy (CB-D) Lang (FB-S)

Vaclik (GK-D)

On Control - Structured with only a couple of TIs and PIs and Sporar has scored 20 in 23 games and although he's decent he isn't world class. I know Basel is best team in the league but certainly not struggling for goals from the lone attacker anyway

In a 4231? This only applies to 4231. But if Pairs and combo states this is fine for that formation then it's definitely wrong. You only have to look at the analysis I did to see why.

I believe in the guide it sets up as a 4-4-1-1, would you still give the same advice?

I believe in the guide it sets up as a 4-4-1-1, would you still give the same advice?

No hence why I said this only applies to 4231's

Not buying it that you don't have the issues I mention above, it's impossible not to have them. No-one said it doesn't work without but if you don't have two players covering the midfield you get exposed. I could show you it happening several times match in any of your saved games if you want me to show you. Just pick one upload the PKM and I'll show you the examples using your own game. You don't have to buy anything, its a visual fact. Some people either turn a blind eye to it happening or don't pay attention to it happening. But rest assured it happens to everyone who uses a 4231 and uses an attacking role for one of the MC's. It stresses the other one and gives him too much space and too much pitch for one person to cover.

Also no-one said they have to be defensive, but they have to hold shape and keep their position, RPM, BBM, BWM, CMA, REG etc all move away from their positions.

I used a 4231 before with two BWM's, hammered most teams

I used a 4231 before with two BWM's, hammered most teams

Did you read the post? If so you missed the entire point.

Upload a PKM of it and I'll show you getting countered and the AI exploiting it time and time again. Btw if you hammered most teams why did you post a few replies in various threads and on my blog about struggling to get a 4231 to work? Surely you'd have reverted back to the awesome 4231 you had

No hence why I said this only applies to 4231's

OK thank you:) I know I tend to ask stupid questions:)

OK thank you:) I know I tend to ask stupid questions:)

No not stupid at all mate It's always best to make sure.

I believe in the guide it sets up as a 4-4-1-1, would you still give the same advice?

No, it's a 4231. If you have a look at the pdf guide you can download there are several formations at the back as templates to get you started. However there seems to be a bit of conflicting information.....probably why I'm doing so rubbish :-)

In a 4231 it doesn't work and I explained why in the analysis above. The closing down is too much and then it causes the issues I highlight and what the post above highlights.

I find myself focusing on the name of the position (BWM) that's what I need, I need someone to win the ball in midfield! But as it's been pointed out, it's just to aggressive. I would have thought that PI would have overridden the selection somewhat? But I guess not. I've moved to playing DLP-D and CM-D with AMC-S and it's created much more stability. If I want more aggression. I use Attacking rather than Control or Standard.

No, it's a 4231. If you have a look at the pdf guide you can download there are several formations at the back as templates to get you started. However there seems to be a bit of conflicting information.....probably why I'm doing so rubbish :-)

It's a shame LLAMA hasn't had time to update things this year,

Getting a bit frustrated with my game, I pretty much stopped playing for a week. I gave up playing the USA national team and decided to try out playing in Mali. I am the current manager of Djoliba, which last time I looked had the highest rep in Mali. Of course I was sucking it up.

But I took all these guides, pdf's, analyses etc and just read them. And I wonder if I came up with a brilliant realization... What they say a million times over and over again may be true. Come up with a tactic and then watch what happens. So i did.

That's the tactic. Control/Fluid. I sometimes use an Anchorman instead of the DM(d).

Of course the very next game I'm playing would be against the undefeated top team in the league Stade Malien. I wasn't expecting much.

I started with ZERO TI's. Stade malien was playing narrow it looked to me, playing a 4312. It looked like there was acres of space on the flanks. So, I decided to play Narrow (and also Exploit the Flanks). I remember reading somewhere that sometimes when you want to play wide you should play narrow. Playing narrow pushes everyone to the middle which again leaves space out on the flanks. Then, I put PI's on my FB(s) to Stay Wider and Get Further Forward. They usually have tons of space out there I have noticed. I also have them on Cross More Often.

Then within a minute of the match, Stade Malien's marauding fullbacks had a great cross. So... my AML and AMR have PI's to Close Down More, Mark Tighter and Man Mark whoever I see on the flanks crossing the ball. With Stade Malien it was there fullbacks. So, my inside forwards and fullbacks were on those fullbacks all game. It was beautiful top watch. EVERY time Stade Malien came down the pitch, they tried to pass out to the fullbacks, and we stifled them.

Now, i do wonder if my THREE PI's on my AML and AMR are overkill. I might experiment with it. I have seen them floating around not marking the guy I want but they are usually on them pretty well.

My CB's are now on shorter passing because i saw them just booming the ball down the field. Which is ok to me if they are trying to make an incisive creative pass... but usually I just quickly lose possession.

And GK is on Fewer Risky Passes, Distribute to center Backs, Roll it Out, Slow pace Down.

I think with my FB's and AML/AMR, it really closes down the wings. And having 2 CB's and 2 DM's, it really puts bodies centrally. i think defensively we are pretty solid.

I am a little bit concerned that the transition from defense to attack is not solid enough. And that is something I need to figure out what to do. My Regista and AP do seem to link up and plus with the width of the FB's and inside forwards, there do seem to be options. But I do feel my striker is kinda out of the game sometimes.

So, so far, it's working. I won 1-0 against Stade Malien and have won 5 more in a row.

So, if anyone has suggestions or thoughts on things to try or things i should consider, throw them out there. I think I have a good start but I'm sure I can improve it.