Can League Two and Non League players make it in the Championship and Premier League?

Aimed at players in the game with starting ages ranging between 16-23.

More and more is the real game becoming about producing or/and developing youth talent and more and more often are these players coming from lower down the pyramid and making it in the Premier League or Championship.

Players are getting picked out of non league or league 1 and 2 and making it at a much higher level.

The same applies for young players at leagues with a lesser reputation around the world.

Players like Sam Clucas at Hull City who started is career in non league, moves to league two then one and now the Championship. With the potential to make it in the Premier League.

The above is based on football in reality.

I want to know how archiveable this is within the game? From my experience playing FM a few years ago finding a player from down the football pyramid and developing them to make it at the top level was difficult if not impossible.

Players like Charlie Austin, Dwight Gayle, George Boyd and Jamie Vardy have proved this in reality and I wonder how possible or achievable this is in the game?

I hope players development and potential isn't stunted merely by the team they play for or the league they are in.

Same applies for unattached players making it at Championship clubs.

Your feedback is welcome and you may disagree with some of the points I have raised.

Thanks

I've also been wanting to know this. Can you sign a player from league 2 for example and they end up being a top premier league player like Vardy.

Yes, but just like in real life, it's very rare.

Also, Vardy isn't quite a 'top Premier League player' yet, he's a young lad who's having a fantastic season, but footballing history is littered with one season wonders. If Vardy can do it at that level on a consistent basis, then he can be regarded as being a top player.

And please, using George Boyd as example shows just how rare this is.

I aren't asking whether we can find world class or top class players who are the best in the league.

I'm just wanting to know if I could sign a non league player who could even make it in the Championship.

In real life there are loads in FM I aren't sure how common this is.

Sam Clucas, Nahki Wells.

Joe Hart, Chris Smalling, Charlie Austin, Ashley Williams, Bolasie, Lee Tomlins, Charlie Austin, Cullum Wilson, Craig Dawson. Etc etc

Yes, but just like in real life, it's very rare.

And please, using George Boyd as example shows just how rare this is.

Bit harsh on Boydkamp there, Dagenham_Dave (Stranglers fan, by the way?). Boyd made it in to the Premiership with Hull in 2013 and, whilst he may not have been a top flight star, without him Hull wouldn't have stumbled over the line in '13, he was crucial, and he has gone from being a non-league player to a lower-Premier / upper Championship player with international call-ups.

It is rare, mind. What I find more common in FM is the Nick Powell scenario. He signed for Man Utd from Crewe aged 17 for a fee rising to £6M, and has now joined Hull on loan after being told he's not going to be offered a new deal. I find in FM a potential superstar will be scouted and signed early doors, and the late developers have to be in the right team, with the right set-up, to get to the top level, just like IRL. I imagine it's difficult for the game to have a regen of excessive PA scuffing around the non-leagues until later life, but that's tolerable to me, because I reckon IRL you see more players developing from the top down (like Powell) than from the bottom up (like Boyd), and FM reflects this.

As for Vardy, I actually see him and Leicester at the moment as some kind of warped FM save. You know when you over-achieve to a high level and get the very best out of a fundamentally limited striker, and build a side around his strengths, compensate for his weaknesses, get them organised and keep morale high? Jamie Vardy is Tonton Zola Moukoko, version 2.0.

Jamie Vardy is Tonton Zola Moukoko, version 2.0.

As a Leicester fan and long time Football Manager fan, this pleases me greatly

I think a point also worth noting as that Vardy, like Lambert at Southampton, is playing a starring role at the club he came into the Premiership with. This happens a lot in FM - the player is part of a team that plays perfectly to his strengths and maintains that style after promotion. Had Vardy left Fleetwood Town for, say, Stoke instead of Leicester, would he be a 'top Premier League player'? Probably not, I'd wager.

I think a point also worth noting as that Vardy, like Lambert at Southampton, is playing a starring role at the club he came into the Premiership with. This happens a lot in FM - the player is part of a team that plays perfectly to his strengths and maintains that style after promotion. Had Vardy left Fleetwood Town for, say, Stoke instead of Leicester, would he be a 'top Premier League player'? Probably not, I'd wager.

Vardy is doing fantastic at the moment but is playing in a team that plays precisely to his attributes. As soon as Drinkwater or Mahrez get the ball they look for where Vardy is and give him the ball quickly. He is probably the best striker in the premier league at the moment for getting a yard on a defender and either running across them and drawing a foul (often a pen or red card) or getting clear through on the keeper. He is also a very good finisher and has a high work rate. In another side though more contribution to build up play might be asked of, Leicester just play to his attributes. Also to note he has struggled against sides who play three at the back as he can't expose a centreback whose fullback has pushed up as easily. Anyway... my point is, I agree with what you say. I'd take it further and point out that he struggled at Leicester in his first season at the club (it has been suggested he considered giving up football altogether) and his first in the Premier League. That is barring the last 9 games. It wasn't even clear at the start of this season that he would be the first choice striker. Ranieri has picked out his strengths and played to them. Would Arsenal/Liverpool/Chelsea allow him the same luxury, probably not. A world class player would be able to adapt to the role they are given. I'm not sure Vardy could do that.

I'm actually not sure Vardy is Tonton because he was class. He reminds me more of an Icelandic striker on CM4 (I think) who had ludicrous physical stats but was rubbish at everything else. He'd score 40 goals a season.. wish I could remember his name..

On FM15 I did sign a couple of players when in non-league who were still in my side when I made it into the Championship. Dan Crowley springs to mind. They were all picked up on frees from big clubs but I would argue that most of the players who came from non-League to the Premier League were on the books of a bigger club at some stage. Vardy was with Sheff Wed, Austin with Reading, Gayle with Arsenal. It's true though that I can't imagine Vardy's career path being replicated by FM though.

Maybe this is from earlier than cm4 but one icelandic guy I used to pick up was Andri Sigporsson.. Don't remember his attributes though..

Seen a guy on youtube that got a newgen (maybe fm15) in vanarama somewhere and after many years he banged home the PL title for him.. Did have a few years in different clubs in between though.

So with newgens I think it's more likely..!

Bit harsh on Boydkamp there, Dagenham_Dave (Stranglers fan, by the way?).

It's from the Morrissey song, not the Stranglers one

Yes, but just like in real life, it's very rare.

Also, Vardy isn't quite a 'top Premier League player' yet, he's a young lad who's having a fantastic season, but footballing history is littered with one season wonders. If Vardy can do it at that level on a consistent basis, then he can be regarded as being a top player.

And please, using George Boyd as example shows just how rare this is.

He's 29...

For many of us 29 is young.

I rose through the leagues with Mansfield Town and had a few players who didn't look out of sort. The stand out player was Jack Thomas. I was constantly getting reports back from coaches saying he was now at a "decent league one level" or "decent championship player". He came through our ranks. Another player is Ryan Tafazolli. He didn't look out of place in the championship and even played at a World Cup with Iran, he signed for us when we were in the conference a few seasons back.

I think its possible for players who are playing at a lower level to adapt and play in the Championship or Premiership, but your going to have to wait a long time if you want to uncover a world beater.

I had a game going with St Albans in the non league, when I started I was looking through the under 18s and a 16 year old cm called Steven Lewis was an excellent prospect, I'm not sure if he is a random ca/pa player or just got added because of lack of players, but I immediately moved him into the first team and he performed very well. I couldn't get him to sign a new contract because he knew he was far too good for the league and at 18 he went to Aston Villa, he was an England under 19 international that year and was in the Villa first team at 20 and in the under 21 England squad. My game crashed when he was about 21 but he was playing well in the premier league and developing well also, if the game had of continued I have no doubt he would have ended up a full international, I'm not sure about world beater, but definitely a quality premier league player.

It's possible for high potential regens to appear at clubs way down in non-league, though very rare. On FM13 or 14 I found a world class potential DM at Loughborough University in the 8th/9th tier when playing as Liverpool, signed him at 15 and he was called straight into the England U19 squad. I never played the save long enough to see how good he became, but he was 5 star potential so I guess he would have been at least an England regular.

Of course it's not exactly realistic for a 15 yr old to be playing for a University team . I only spotted him as I'm a Loughborough graduate and was just randomly decided to look at their team.

Aimed at players in the game with starting ages ranging between 16-23.

More and more is the real game becoming about producing or/and developing youth talent and more and more often are these players coming from lower down the pyramid and making it in the Premier League or Championship.

Players are getting picked out of non league or league 1 and 2 and making it at a much higher level.

The same applies for young players at leagues with a lesser reputation around the world.

Players like Sam Clucas at Hull City who started is career in non league, moves to league two then one and now the Championship. With the potential to make it in the Premier League.

The above is based on football in reality.

I want to know how archiveable this is within the game? From my experience playing FM a few years ago finding a player from down the football pyramid and developing them to make it at the top level was difficult if not impossible.

Players like Charlie Austin, Dwight Gayle, George Boyd and Jamie Vardy have proved this in reality and I wonder how possible or achievable this is in the game?

I hope players development and potential isn't stunted merely by the team they play for or the league they are in.

Same applies for unattached players making it at Championship clubs.

Your feedback is welcome and you may disagree with some of the points I have raised.

Thanks

I like to contribute to your question. First of all, (as with many things in FM) there are a lot of factors that determine if a non-league player can reach the level of championship or even PL. To name a few: Potential talent, the right fysical and mental capacity, level of (youth) facilities to reach his potential, quality of training, playtime and the level of opposition when playing matches.

In reallity it happends not that often, in FM I think it can happen more then in RL, because of the quick promotions you can achieve and with this increased training, facilities etc.

I have 2 FM examples from my current Stockport save that I would like to share:

Nicky Hollis, as you can see signed him when he was a youngster in non-league. Now he is valuable to me in the championship.

Ben Shaef, signed him as a youngster dropped by Arsenal U18. Not really non-league but you can argue about the quality/position of U18 league in the pyramid.

For many of us 29 is young.

Haha that granted he's not young in footballing terms

I want to see what Vardy does next year before even considering him being mentioned as a "top premier league player", this is the first season in Championship or Prem he's average a goal every 2 games ... he scored 4 last season, 4!! Hes just found some form but is nowhere near a top class player, he works hard and confidence has grown so much hes scoring 30 yard half volleys against Liverpool!

Some of these stories to me, aren't players from lower leagues doing it in the Premier League. Joe Hart is mentioned, I don't consider him a lower league player who has made him, he spent most of his vital years at City (and I'm a City fan) and yes he played for Shrewsbury but i wouldn't say he was considered a lower league player.

And anyone who signs someone at 15-16 and they make it big, thats not a lower league player doing it, you've altered his development at a young age so its different. For me, this thread is more for those guys who have only come to the Premier League in there late 20s after years in the lower leagues and scored goals or played well ... Ricky Lambert is the best example in my opinion, he's done a lot more to prove himself than a one-season wonder like Vardy ... if he bags 20 next season, you can all crucify me for that!

Haha that granted he's not young in footballing terms

I think it was Brendan Rodgers reference who called him a young boy who is going to get better and better.

As a Leicester fan I'm immediately more qualified to talk about Vardy's rise than most and the amazing thing with Vardy is that it's a almost as if you can see him gaining CA.

In his first season 2012/13 he started well scoring I think 4 in 9 (and having a clearly onside goal chalked off) but then he hit poor form, looked weak, slow(!?), had a terrible first touch and he looked every bit a conference player in the championship. After that he was contemplating quitting football but Pearson convinced him to continue and expressed the faith he had in him. The season after Vardy came back into preseason early to work on his physique and ability which obviously shows professionalism and determination to reach his PA in fm terms. He started away at 'Boro much to many fans' bemusement and he scored the opener showing a great turn of pace and a very much improved first touch. He'd shown the ability to adapt to the level he was now at as he scored 17 goals in the league as were promoted as champions with 102 points. Jamie had established himself as a key player.

He'd shown a considerable increase in his ability with his movement, finishing and first touch matching his aggression and pace to score goals. Coming into the prem most of us held high hopes for us and Vardy but despite destroying Man U in that 5-3 as he grabbed a goal and 4 assists but just like the team as a whole Vardy faltered as we didn't win for basically a whole century. Familiarly, Vardy struggled looked off the pace and his touch was very poor and his finishing erratic yet his pace still caused trouble but mostly he didn't play with Ulloa, Nugent and Kramaric preferred to Vardy. Then results picked up due to various factors and Vardy came back into the side scoring the incredible winner at West Brom and a Deeney against Leicester kind of goal against Burnley to help us stay up. Crucially Vardy had showed signs of adapting to his surroundings once again like a chameleon and made his way in the England squad somewhat controversially but Leicester fans felt the inclusion was justified after he hit 5 goals and 8 assists in what was considered a poor season.

This season we all know what's happened but Vardy has once again adapted and improved in a manner which I've never, ever seen before (although I'm only 18) and his drastic improvement is something straight out of FM. I'd refute the statement that he's a limited player, yes he has his strengths and weaknesses but his all-round play is considerably better, he's good in the air, his touch is good, his off the ball movement is incredible and the goal against Liverpool is something that he wouldn't have been able to do 3 seasons ago.

He may well be a one season wonder but I very much doubt it, he won't be the top scoring striker again next season but he'll be good for 15 goals I reckon which is still a very good return.

In terms of FM I think it will be difficult to do this with real life players currently in the lower leagues. This is because SI (well not 100% here!) moderates the CA and PA of players at lower league and lower reputation clubs due to overzealous fan boy researchers at lower league clubs!

Let's consider my team Bournemouth, which is a perfect example. 6 players of the team that won at Crystal Palace on Tuesday were regulars of our L1 side. If anyone still has FM13, I'd be very interested to know the PA of Simon Francis, Steve Cook, Charlie Daniels, Matt Ritchie, Harry Arter and Marc Pugh? I bet it's way less than their CA in FM16 right now. In reality the PA of these players hasn't changed at all, it's just the perception of their true abilities will have.

Maybe it's a unique situation but there are loads of examples of other players too in real life. Vardy and Alli obviously but even less well known players too.

I think later into FM once there are more regens it might be possible to sign a player from L2 to a Prem side. I think unless SI get a bit braver with allowing higher PA's for existing lower league players, it'll be difficult to see such rapid rises.

I can't really comment on Bournemouth because I've only watched them out of the corner of my eye, but to use a similar analogy, Hull were promoted to the Premiership in '08 with three first-teamers (club captain Ian Ashbee, Andy Dawson and Boaz Myhill) who were clogging around with us in League Two. Ryan France, who we signed from Alfreton when we were in League 2, also made Premiership appearances. I imagine both their PA and CA would've been quite low in terms of Premiership ability (perhaps Myhill being an exception), and for me this would've been accurate. These players seriously overachieved. I would never, ever have these players down as regular Premiership players until the day it actually happened. Dean Windass, scoring in the Premiership for Hull at the age of 39? In 2003 this would've seemed utterly mental to me, but the fact it happened is not to do with these players' PA, but the fact that they were in the right team, under the right manager, were well-drilled, had the right balance in terms of personality, morale through the roof, contained a bona-fide club legend in Windass, basically all the variables that conspire to make an FM manager over-achieve happened IRL at Hull in 2008.

During that climb up the leagues, Hull also fielded Jon Walters, Leon Cort, Damien Delaney and Aaron Wilbrahim, who all went on to make PL appearances elsewhere. Again, I considered none of them at the time to ever be Premiership contenders. Walters was obviously talented but had serious personal issues and was bombed out. He then recovered enough to reach his full potential (or his CA matched his PA in FM terms). Delaney (originally a target for the boo-boys when Hull were in League 2) and Cort are two examples of players again exceeding their ability in terms of achievement. Wilbrahim in particular was God-awful and I'll never know how he managed to blag his way in to the Premiership, but I guess the same factors were in play for him as they were for Ian Ashbee. In all these examples, with the possible exception of Myhill and Walters, I reckon they would have had low PA and CA in terms of top-flight football and had to earn the right to play there, and what counted for them was the right manager doing the right things for them, which is what FM is all about for me as someone who plays LLM.

This type of player career trajectory doesn't really happen yet with AI-controlled players, but at the moment AI squad building (discussed elsewhere in much more depth) is nowhere near as good as it could be in my opinion. I expect that with FM essentially being a constant work-in-progress, in later editions these issues will be addressed somewhat and we'll probably see a lot more over-achievement from players at AI clubs than we do now.

I think in real life there are lots of players who could play in the PL but for various reasons never achieve that. Maybe they have bad attitudes or perhaps they just play for bad managers.

What FM could do is have higher PA for lots of players but make it harder for those players to get anywhere near that PA. Perhaps playing for a certain well regarded coach triggers an automatic CA rise. Or maybe if a player plays for a team who meets a certain threshold for tactical fluidity it releases a temporary CA bonus.

Would be interesting to know in real life whether the Hull and Bournemouth players mentioned above would have achieved the same playing for different managers or at less tactically well drilled sides?

It's probably too complicated for SI to incorporate into the game. But seemingly random rises in players abilities is possible!

Would be interesting to know in real life whether the Hull and Bournemouth players mentioned above would have achieved the same playing for different managers or at less tactically well drilled sides?

In the case of the Hull players, definitely not. The fact that they over-achieved beyond their CA in such a fashion is why they're so highly thought of and well-remembered, as opposed to Daniel Cousin and Jimmy Bullard, who never got anywhere near their CA whilst with Hull.

Dean Windass' career trajectory is interesting in regards to this discussion. Rejected by Hull at 16, re-signed for Hull aged 22 from a Level 9 team as a centre-mid (DLP as preferred role), retrained as a striker during an injury crisis, scored a hatful, rose up the leagues, became a Premiership player at 30, earned the right to stay there, came back down the leagues as a veteran (adding AMC as a new position, and 'comes deep to get ball' as a PPM in the process), then returned to his local club and takes them to the top-flight at the age of 39. A jovial/outspoken personality which was tapped into by managers who would be among his favourite staff (Bryan Robson, Terry Dolan and Paul Jewell, whilst he still loathes Neil Warnock and later fell out with Phil Brown) who managed to get him to achieve beyond his ability and obvious weaknesses as a professional footballer.

His career is something I think is entirely possible under a human manager, but wouldn't happen with an AI manager at present.

In terms of FM I think it will be difficult to do this with real life players currently in the lower leagues. This is because SI (well not 100% here!) moderates the CA and PA of players at lower league and lower reputation clubs due to overzealous fan boy researchers at lower league clubs!

Let's consider my team Bournemouth, which is a perfect example. 6 players of the team that won at Crystal Palace on Tuesday were regulars of our L1 side. If anyone still has FM13, I'd be very interested to know the PA of Simon Francis, Steve Cook, Charlie Daniels, Matt Ritchie, Harry Arter and Marc Pugh? I bet it's way less than their CA in FM16 right now. In reality the PA of these players hasn't changed at all, it's just the perception of their true abilities will have.

Maybe it's a unique situation but there are loads of examples of other players too in real life. Vardy and Alli obviously but even less well known players too.

I think later into FM once there are more regens it might be possible to sign a player from L2 to a Prem side. I think unless SI get a bit braver with allowing higher PA's for existing lower league players, it'll be difficult to see such rapid rises.

I was just about to mention Bournemouth. Obviously before playing there, Charlie Daniels was an Orient player and you could tell he had something about him. Interestingly, I wouldn't have said he was our best player at that point (Dean Cox was certainly performing consistently at a higher level). However, I didn't begrudge him a move to Bournemouth who were clearly a club on the rise. I definitely thought he was good enough for the Championship but was dubious about him playing in the Prem, but so far he's been brilliant and his run and cross for Afobe the other week epitomised everything I saw on a weekly basis at orient. I think it goes to show how much you can improve by playing consistently against high class opposition. The same goes for the others you mention. Pugh played for Bury and Hereford before Bournemouth (I think) and although I'm sure their fans would say he was good, I would bet they never thought he'd be playing well in the top flight.

As a side note on Daniels, he did come from Spurs and you could tell he had been trained by a top level club while he was with us.

Most common way I see this as being possible would be a player with high potential having a low current ability in his early 20s. Meaning he plays lowing league football moving up the league to possibly one day reach premier league ability.

Just thought Ian Wright should get a mention too as he was signed by Crystal Palace from non league,he was scouted and look at the success he had.

It might be interesting to research when each of the players mentioned so far were cast aside by a big club, my gut felling is that many would have been released in their mid/late teens by top division clubs.

It might be interesting to research when each of the players mentioned so far were cast aside by a big club, my gut felling is that many would have been released in their mid/late teens by top division clubs.

Most of the Hull players I mentioned (Dawson, Ashbee, Myhill, Walters) actually began their professional careers at a Premiership / upper Championship club, and had to drop down the leagues to kickstart their careers, aged about 20. Delaney began in the Irish League, then arrived at Hull via a Premiership club (Leicester). Only Windass and Cort began at non-league level having been rejected in their youth and I think Cort was rejected by Millwall aged about 19, then resurrected his career with Dulwich Hamlet and then Southend.

It might be interesting to research when each of the players mentioned so far were cast aside by a big club, my gut felling is that many would have been released in their mid/late teens by top division clubs.

For the Bournemouth players I mentioned, 5 of the 6 came through the youth ranks at relatively medium sized clubs. These were Bradford, Brighton, Burnley, Charlton and Portsmouth. All were well regarded at their first clubs but none of them really established themselves. Simon Francis and Marc Pugh played for a number of lower league sides before getting a chance with us.

The exception was Charlie Daniels he got his education at Spurs before being released to Leyton Orient. The interesting thing is that he was the one most fans thought would struggle the most with the step up. However, it's been quite the opposite with even a bit of talk about an England call up.

It does perhaps hint that players at the bigger sides should have a higher PA, but in order for their CA to match they need to be playing at the highest level. I'm not sure exactly when FM caps CA, but in case of Charlie Daniels he has certainly received a significant jump in CA this season even at age 28.

I've also been wanting to know this. Can you sign a player from league 2 for example and they end up being a top premier league player like Vardy.

Last year on a Liverpool save, I signed a 16 year old from Dagenham and Redbridge for 60k. He'd played 11 games for them and took a few years but eventually he became not only a first-team player but a key player. Was valued at like 57 million pounds when I left.

For the Bournemouth players I mentioned, 5 of the 6 came through the youth ranks at relatively medium sized clubs. These were Bradford, Brighton, Burnley, Charlton and Portsmouth. All were well regarded at their first clubs but none of them really established themselves. Simon Francis and Marc Pugh played for a number of lower league sides before getting a chance with us.

The exception was Charlie Daniels he got his education at Spurs before being released to Leyton Orient. The interesting thing is that he was the one most fans thought would struggle the most with the step up. However, it's been quite the opposite with even a bit of talk about an England call up.

It does perhaps hint that players at the bigger sides should have a higher PA, but in order for their CA to match they need to be playing at the highest level. I'm not sure exactly when FM caps CA, but in case of Charlie Daniels he has certainly received a significant jump in CA this season even at age 28.

As an Orient fan, I remember Charlie Daniels very well. Signed on loan and then permanently and was fantastic for us, combined so well with Dean Cox on the left-side. Was a bit disappointed he left to Bournemouth who were below us in L1 at the time but they were spending quite a bit at that point so I couldn't begrudge him the move. Obviously I never foresaw the rise Bournemouth would make. I was so excited for him and was disappointed when they spent so much on Tyrone Mings but when he kept Mings out of the team (before Mings unfortunately got injured), I was delighted. Really pleased for his rise.