Biggest Crash since the Great Depression.

Playing as Wrexham. Started in the Vanarama National, got promoted to League 2.

I have 2 main formations, 4-2-4 wide and 4-1-2-3 DM wide. I like to dominate possession and control the flow of the match where possible (not easy at this level I find).

The 4-2-4 has a Flexible shape, Control Mentality. I play a slightly higher line, using the offside trap. Width is balanced, passing directness mixed, and I ask my players to mark tight, get stuck in and run at defence, looking to overwhelm the opposition.

I adopted the 4-1-2-3 when I got promoted. Again Flexible, it has a Counter Mentality, a slightly deeper line and is 'fairly wide'. I ask players to get stuck in, but not mark tightly, wanting to win the ball aggressively but not go searching for it. Passing is 'More Direct'. No other TI's

The 4-2-4 has: Auto Duty Wingbacks, a Cover and a Defend CB. In midfield, a defensive BWM and a supporting B2B. Up front are 2 Attack Duty IF's, a Support duty striker (usually a DLF or defensive forward) and an AF or TM

In the 4-1-2-3 I switch to support duty fullbacks to consolidate the back line, a defend duty DM. The midfield is the same, and up front I have the same set up apart from no Support Striker.

After 63 matches, I'd won 43, drawn 14, lost 6. Scored 143, conceded 68. I'd won the National with 110 points, and lost to Torquay in the FA Trophy final. Started League 2 with the worst pre-season odds in the league, 80-1. So I was kind of hoping teams would go easy on me to start with, and it seems I was correct. I drew 1 and won 5 of the first six.

Since then...played 5, won 2, drawn 1, lost 2. Not too shabby, I suppose....but it's the manner I've lost which is completely galling. A 1-1 draw, a 2-1 loss, 2-1 win, 1-0 win, 1-0 loss. In the first 6 league matches, I created 78 shots, 35 on target, scored 13, conceded 5. In the last 5, I've created 63 shots, 20 on target...but the number on target has dwindled every match. The last match was the first in my FM life I've ever seen where, in 90 minutes I failed to get a single shot on target, only amassing 9 shots in the entire game. The match before that, 11 shots, 5 on target. I initially played 4 of these matches, and they were so abominable, I rage quit. Following that, I realised that several small alterations to my 4-1-2-3 had completely wrecked it (I found early on my 4-2-4 was too attacking in League 2). I reverted back to the tactic as described, the tactic that had proved so effective. Then, so as not to fully benefit from the information gained after the rage quit, I went on holiday and replayed those 4. I then moved onto the last game I played. Me in first, against Hartlepool in third. As advised by my assistant, I calmly told my players to 'go out and prove a point' (because we were tipped to lose). This has never failed to motivate my team, and it didn't in this case, every player lit up green and motivated.

We played...almost.. as well as ever. 50% possession, we usually have it in the mid 50s. 68% pass completion, 73% of headers won and 76% of tackles. And not 1 shot on target. In fact, with no players on shoot more often, no players roaming, I only amassed 1 shot in the area...a defenders header from a corner. My AF only took 1 shot...from by the corner flag! I noted early on that the opposition was crowding the area, so I widened the play and attempted floated crosses from the wing. Only problem was...my striker kept coming out to receive the ball on the wing and passing it into the space he'd just vacated, while the IF who should've been either crossing the ball or attacking the box stood next to him like I'd asked him to 'stand with taker' in a free kick situation.

I know it's not the game, I'm not blaming the game. What I am blaming is my complete inability to understand why a tactic that was so effective can, and has, apparently fallen apart overnight. I confess that was pretty much luck..I dove into the T&T threads and stickies, and the make up of the squad I inherited forced me to go with an attacking 4-2-4, which as I've said proved remarkably dominant. I've re read all the threads and stickies...I wouldn't have got nearly this far without Lines & Diamonds, The First 15 Minutes, Building a Tactic and Maintaining it Long Term etc. But now my game has completely collapsed, nothing is working and I'm at an absolute loss as to why. I don't have players set to roam, and yet they seem to roam. I've asked players not to take long shots, and they take pot shots from 30-50 yards. I ask them to close down and they don't, to get stuck in and they stay on their feet..and I ask them to stay on their feet and they go in 2 footed and get red carded! Any and all thoughts, ideas and criticisms welcome...there's probably things in those tactics that'll have the better players weeping, for which I apologise.

Lets take a step back for a moment, and focus on your 4-1-2-3 system you are now using.

How exactly are you wanting to play? What style of football?

Lets break down your current system. You are using a Counter mentality, which by default sets a low defensive line, makes your players stand off more (less closing down) thus requiring them to keep their defensive shape better, lowers the tempo, makes your defenders look for longer passes, attackers play shorter passes for a more patient build up. And gives the team the ability to look for more counter attacking opportunities.

On top of that, you plug in a player at the DM position, which will force your def line a little deeper and then give your team the instruction to drop even deeper. Do you want to be so deep? Further, you are asking your players to stand off more and keep their shape, but then tell them to get stuck in - which effectively asks them to leave their position and attempt relatively risky tackles - which if they miss can get you into trouble. Again, is that what you want?

Then, when in possession, you are using a mentality that promotes a slow patient style of build up play, but then tell your team to pass in a more direct manner. It seems a bit confusing?

Finally, using the Counter mentality. Are you using it simply to try to play in a relatively low risk manner, with some TIs to help you define your style of play? Or are you actually trying to have a "pure" Counter attacking system? You can of course combine the two - use TIs to define your playing style when you are not counter attacking, and when a counter starts the AI takes over and ignores your TIs anyway. However, if you are looking to build a counter attacking system, then your chosen formation may be working against you - you need players sitting deep to invite pressure before hitting them on the break. Hard to do when you have 3 players high up the pitch.

Define how you want your team to play and start from there .

OK, herne...thanks

I'm wanting to play a possession based style...the opponents can't score if they've not got the ball and vice versa. Given the low level of my team, I'm satisfied if we simply have more possession than the opponent...though of course it's more important to have useful possession than possession for the sake of it. Last season I averaged over 53% possession for the season, and before this collapse, 51%. Now I'm lucky to get 40% in a match. I did extremely well last year with my attacking 4-2-4 but when I used it early on in the season I got absolutely over-run. Luckily I had this 4-1-2-3 working at that point! That's why I opted for the DM...I was encouraging the fullbacks to get forward, and using the DM to shift from a defensive 4-1-2-3 to an attacking 3-4-3 or even 3-3-4. I don't have any ML or MR's, only AML/R, so I have them pushed up making a front 3 and using the fullbacks for width.

I see what you're saying about going too deep...didn't realize the effect the DM would have. My intention was to play deep to draw the opposition in, then get either get it to the IF's quickly while looking to control possession with slow, patient play in the centre...basically, now you've said it I realise that's completely wrong. I'll have to rethink that...I must've done something right before. I'll have to review old games.

The intention of the tactic was indeed to play in a 'relatively low risk manner' but with the three up front to be able to switch really quickly from attack to defence. Again, as you said, this is at odds with the fact I want to retain possession.

From what you've said, it's looking to me like a serious problem with the build up, and with the supply. There does appear to be a slight issue with more goals conceded, but considering I'm in a higher league way before I expected to be, I'm not surprised. I'm going to try moving the line 'slightly higher' or even 'higher', remove the 'mark tightly' and only put the 'get stuck in' PI on my BWM to try and consolidate the midfield a bit more. As for the build up, I'm not sure what I want. I want to keep the opposition far away from my goal and transition from defence to attack quickly, but I want to maintain control and possession in the centre. I don't know if that's possible or if I'm trying to bang a glass drum.

Thanks for the input, it's helped me start thinking more clearly. Appreciated.

Not a good test, I know...but the next match was against Shrewsbury, of League 1. I did what I decided...4-1-2-3, Counter, slightly higher line with the offside trap, higher tempo, mixed passing directness, closing down sometimes and looking for the overlap.

We battered them for 40 minutes. Then conceded a penalty. Half time we're down 1 nil and have only had 2 shots on target. I raised the tempo and the line, looking to pressure...and absolutely battered them until the 70th minute, by which time we had a whole 3 shots on target. I decided to try giving my attack more variety by switching out my DM for a deep lying forward. Within 8 minutes, we'd conceded twice. Final stats:

Wrexham 13 shots. 4 on target, 6 off target. 50% possession, 5 corners, 67% pass completion, 69% tackle completion, 60% of headers won. 9 fouls, no cards. No goals. These stats are very close to what I considered normal

Shrewsbury 7 shots, 3 on target, 4 off target. 50% possession, 5 corners, 68% pass completion, 54% tackle completion, 63% of headers. 6 fouls. No cards. 3 goals

We equalled them, even out fought them if the tackling is to be believed. The huge differences were in attack...every shot they had on target went in, none of mine, and we had nearly double their shots but the same number on target. So there are major issues in attack. Could be just that every striker's gone off the boil. I have no idea how to solve that. And in defence....as soon as I took off the DM, I lost all defensive control of the game and it could, and should, have been about 6-0.

Next match, away against Mansfield who're 18th. I don't have a single shot in the first half. I come out in the second going route 1, overload, highest line, running at defence. 2 minutes in, my goalkeeper drops the ball in his own net. Two minutes later they score a deflected screamer. Having gone 100% all out, using the most attacking version of every TI in the game, we finally score in the 87th minute and finish with an absolutely staggeringly magnificent 5 shots...and not 1 from my striker. 2 from an IF, 1 from a midfielder, and 2 from my rightback.

Game deleted.

You are not here asking for help. when suggestions are made you validate your own approach which is strange. And then because things don't go your way you delete the game.

Wow. So you posted here to trash your toys in the pram?

Dude, did you stop to think that morale may be playing a big part here? As well as just throwing out nonsense tactics?

There is more to the game than your tactic, and as a manager you should manage those things too.

But also, listen to the advice above about the tactic

Your approach is random and you create far too many threads. Why on earth would you go to Overload at half time in a match? That's an all-or-nothing last ditch Mentality for when you want to salvage something from a match. In spite of having read lots of threads, I still don't think you get it.

I appreciate the criticism and this will be my last word on the subject. Herne gave me some ideas, which were perfectly valid, perfectly correct. From what herne said, I realised I had made several adjustments to a tactic which had been entirely successful, so rather than than validating my own approach, I was defending an approach which had, largely down to some excellent stuff on T&T, been highly successful and then apparently from 1 game to the next, imploded. I reset my tactic back to the original, which prior to this had been providing 1-3 goals per game, and in numerous attempts, with all my different strikers I barely managed a shot, let alone a shot on goal. I have never been good at the game, I admit that freely and openly, and I have a lot of experience of getting to a point where it no longer seems worth fighting the game, a point where I've been fighting and trying to figure things out for so long the validity and basic enjoyment has been entirely eradicated, so I delete and move on. One of these days I'll learn not to bother with the game at all, sadly I was lulled into a false sense of security this time by an excellent start.

I did think morale might play a big part, I'd already experienced something of a slump in the first season which came down to my players being complacent after a great run. So I loaded different saves at different points before this rot set in, anything up to three or four games earlier, and used the assertive team talks that had bucked my team up before. No effect. I got the wins I'd had before, then got to the exact same point in the game every time...and immediately noted a total crash in shot numbers. I went back and tried being gentle and encouraging. Got the wins I'd had before...then got to the exact same point in the game and immediately noted a total crash in shot numbers.

Yeah, I know I've created a lot of threads, RT and apologise. In 1 particular thread, it lead me down two different routes, so rather than those getting lost in the middle of the thread, I posted 2 new threads discussing the new ideas. If that was wrong, I again apologise, I was just trying to keep things clear for myself. I understand Overload is an all-or-nothing, last ditch mentality. Before this crash I thought I had a reasonable understanding of the game, even if I did have to keep referring back to various T&T threads to sort my head out. I had got to the point where it was an all-or-nothing, last ditch situation for my save. I'd lost all the enjoyment, gotten absolutely sick of fighting the game...again...and wanted to prove to myself that no matter what I did, I'd lose. By going all out, only to instantly concede an own goal and an unsaveable deflection, and for that all out to only produce 1 goal...and for my striker to still not make an attempt, despite previously being in the form of his life (5 goals in 3 games in the highest league he's played in) I realised that there was indeed no point continuing with this save. You're perfectly right. I obviously don't get it, but what I do get is when it's just not worth the fight any more.

You may as well close this thread...and if you want to close my others, no worries.

I have to admit to being a bit dumbfounded.

We've had several discussions both on the forums and via PM, and you seem to go round in circles with an almost scatter gun approach.

Just stop and think about what you have written for a moment.

I want to keep the opposition far away from my goal

Now consider if your chosen Counter mentality will help you achieve that, bearing in mind what I wrote in post 2 above.

It won't. Why?

And then you add in two new seemingly random TIs - "Play Offside Trap" (with a low def line and defenders with poor mental attributes? Really?); and "Look for Overlap" which should just be removed from the game as far as I am concerned (it makes your wingers, not your midfielders, basically hold the ball up to wait for an overlapping fullback - you have two support duty fullbacks plus advanced wingers at AML/R, so who exactly is overlapping?).

And the less said about using Overload the better .

Take a step back and think things through in a calm, logical manner. Stop just throwing instructions at your team in the vain hope that something will work. Look at every single choice you make, consider what it does and how it impacts everything else around it. If you don't know, then look it up, ask, or don't use it.

I agree whole-heartedly with Herne's assessment.

Strip it all back to basics, start simple. The game is relatively simple if you approach it in a methodical logical manner, WE overcomplicate things.

This is something I've learned from Cleon's threads, he makes everything seem so simple and logical, because in essence, it is!!!

If you want to keep the opposition far away from goal...you go attacking. They won't leave their half.

"Look for Overlap" which should just be removed from the game as far as I am concerned (it makes your wingers, not your midfielders, basically hold the ball up to wait for an overlapping fullback

Why should it be removed?`What if you use inside forwards and want your fullbacks to overlap and create extra width?

I have built successfull tactics for FM 14, 15 and 16 where look for overlap is absolute key to how I want to attack.

If you want to keep the opposition far away from goal...you go attacking. They won't leave their half.

Quite.

Why should it be removed?`What if you use inside forwards and want your fullbacks to overlap and create extra width?

I have built successfull tactics for FM 14, 15 and 16 where look for overlap is absolute key to how I want to attack.

Just my opinion, others will disagree and that's fine .

Personally I feel it's a redundant shout and can restrict variety of play.

Attacking fullbacks will overlap "wingers" (colloquialism) by default anyway, no need to tell them to do it. And worse, the shout could actually reduce the "winger's" own attacking play because they could wait for the overlap instead of doing something themselves. And of course the shout affects players on both flanks - what if on the other flank you have an attacking winger with a supporting fullback behind? He'll be waiting for an overlap that never comes.

So, for me, I find it better to set up overlaps using roles, duties and PIs/PPMs rather than trusting in a shout that can have unexpected knock-on effects.

Having said that, if it works for you then great.

Why should it be removed?`What if you use inside forwards and want your fullbacks to overlap and create extra width?

I have built successfull tactics for FM 14, 15 and 16 where look for overlap is absolute key to how I want to attack.

Except it only worked for players in ML/MR slots and not in AML/AMR on 14 and 15. So you can't have had it working with inside forwards.

Except it only worked for players in ML/MR slots and not in AML/AMR on 14 and 15. So you can't have had it working with inside forwards.

I played a 4-4-2 Narrow diamond in 14 and 15 so you are correct regarding IF's, and based on what Herne said about who used overlap it was probably a redundant shout in that tactic since I didn't use wide players.

I have never studied the ME that much, and it is probably the part of the game I care the least about. I have always been more interested in squad building and player development. To me tactics has always been an extra nuisance and if it worked ok I was satisfied.

What I wantet was my full backs to overlap, and what I saw in both 14,15 and 16 was that they did. That was all the confirmation I needed, and I didn't stop to reflect on whether the TI was redundant or not.

That was also why I asked why Herne wanted the TI removed, because in my head that TI did exactly what I wanted it to do. If I was wrong then no problem, you learn something new every day