Why Not 4231

I have been looking around the forum and I really do not see much advice or attempts on creating a successful 4231 wide formation. The long standing contributors like Cleon, THOG and WWFAN do not seem to to have much write up on how the 4231 wide works and how to set it up or it been used often in threads written.

I know you cannot create a tactic that fits all. Whenever I read threads on how tobplayvtge game most of time the formation used are

4-1-4-1 or 433 DM version. I have recently seen 442 making a comeback with likes of Herne using it has part of his tactical write up.

when I read through the forums you would find that many people stay away from 4231 formation because of some of the negative reviews it gets I do not see much threads on 4231 formations and I cannot find much tactical help on the forums I am also starting to believe that it is a no go formation. It seems that if your formation does not have a DM then your setting yourself up to fail.

I can accept the people have a formation that they use but it would great to see the 4231 getting a good write up.

It would also be interesting to hear from Cleon, WWFAN and THOG what are their thoughts.

There's multiple 4231 help tactics threads every week, there's nothing wrong with the formation its just people use it with the wrong type or balance of players. I might try and write something up so I can just link it rather than repeating myself as often.

It's mostly from the point of view that the formation on the tactics screen is a reasonable approximation of defensive shape, and not many teams defend without the AML/R players not tracking back (yes, there's Real Madrid and a few other elite sides, but it's not that many). You can get AML/R to track back in a few ways, but it is easier to use an alternate formation where tracking back will occur, and work from that base to achieve a 4-2-3-1's movement when you have possession of the ball.

I keep winning, winning and winning, playing exclusively a 4231 Wide formation. Nothing wrong with it.

It's mostly from the point of view that the formation on the tactics screen is a reasonable approximation of defensive shape, and not many teams defend without the AML/R players not tracking back (yes, there's Real Madrid and a few other elite sides, but it's not that many). You can get AML/R to track back in a few ways, but it is easier to use an alternate formation where tracking back will occur, and work from that base to achieve a 4-2-3-1's movement when you have possession of the ball.

Is this still true in FM16? I know it has been an issue in the past, but my (admittedly limited) experience with 16 so far suggests no problem with tracking back from the AM strata.

I haven't been able to play much (game keeps crashing) but in my preseason with arsenal I've found the 4231 quite effective offensively and defensively without any tricks to get the wingers to track back (just an IFa and Ws, no PIs). Could be my players (Sanchez for instance is a work horse) but even my younger and non first choice players track back.

May others in the arsenal team thread also seem to be doing fine with much more experience than me (ie, actually getting through a season!).

But of course balance is always important and perhaps more difficult with the 4231, but moreso because of the CMs.

Well, with the exception of players like Sanchez (with their work ethics), I still think you're better off having your wide players on support duty. Which doesn't mean they're any less effective in attack, mind. Not if you do it right.

Oh, btw; Sanchez plays as a IF/support on the left for me. And I have another IF/support on the other side. Both of them scores and assists plenty. And both of them do fall back to make a 4411 defensive shape - but perhaps not as quickly as they would if you actually had them in a ML or MR starting position. I haven't seen any huge problems with that though, even if the DL and DR behind them are wing backs (support duty).

Well, with the exception of players like Sanchez (with their work ethics), I still think you're better off having your wide players on support duty. Which doesn't mean they're any less effective in attack, mind. Not if you do it right.

Oh, btw; Sanchez plays as a IF/support on the left for me. And I have another IF/support on the other side. Both of them scores and assists plenty. And both of them do fall back to make a 4411 defensive shape - but perhaps not as quickly as they would if you actually had them in a ML or MR starting position. I haven't seen any huge problems with that though, even if the DL and DR behind them are wing backs (support duty).

Thomit I have recently started following some of your work because you play a 4241 wide. Do you have a problem with your CMs making a screen. My main thing is getting the attacking getting the AMC and striker to work. Giroud and Ozil or my preferred options up top. May I ask if you give your Inside Forwstds any PI.

Yes, my IF on the left is told to close down more, sit narrower and to roam from position. My IF on the right the same + get further forward. Central mid is a CM/defend and a DLP/support with no additional intructions. My wing backs (both support) are told to stay wider. My keeper is told to distribute to the wing backs. My CF/support is told to close down more. My AP/attack is told to roam from position. That's all my player instructions. My team is told to play a Control mentality, a "flexible" shape, with instructions to play a higher tempo, to close down more, shorter passing, to work ball into the box, to whip crosses and to dribble less. So, just one "attack" role in the whole team.

This produces - for me - most of the possession in nearly every match, home or away. Some breathtaking attacking pass & move play. I score the most and let in the least in the league. My wide attackers, instead of waiting to get the ball and then take on their opponent with it, now are more inclined to make runs behind the defensive line, receiving that pinpoint pass from Ôzil or my DLP; it's then a choice of shooting, passing or crossing. The same with my wing backs. Dribbling (running with the ball) produces more loss of possession, and less goal scoring chances. It's as simple as that. I very rarely need to change anything except swapping players. Not for away games, or whoever I meet; I have a good chance of winning anyway. Sometimes I tell my team to chill a bit if we're close to 90 minutes and leading ... just a simple "retain" instruction + lower tempo. I think I can remember one match in all my matches up till now where we didn't get the most possession and most goal scoring chances. And as a bonus, the play more often than not looks like the rl Arsenal at their best.

Giroud is not ideal for the CF role, but he still can produce in that role. Don't be afraid to use Walcott in that role either. Özil in the AP/attack role has been absolutely brilliant for me, he both assists and scores plenty.

In my first FM 2016 season I won the PL comfortably as well as winning the CL. In my second season I'm on course to do the same ... hopefully. Leading the PL with 7 points, start of February. This tactical setup works, consistantly. It's just a matter of filling it with the right players. And as Arsenal, I have loads of them - if not, I have the economy to get them.

Yes, my IF on the left is told to close down more, sit narrower and to roam from position. My IF on the right the same + get futher forward. Central mid is a CM/defend and a DLP/support with no additional intructions. My wing backs (both support) are told to stay wider. My keeper is told to distribute to the wing backs. My CF/support is told to close down more. My AP/attack is told to roam from position. That's all my player instructions. My team is told to play a Control mentality, a "flexible" shape, with instructions to play a higher tempo, to close down more, shorter passing, to work ball into the box, to whip crosses and to dribble less.

This produces - for me - most of the possession in nearly every match, home or away. Some breathtaking attacking pass & move play. I score the most and let in the least in the league. My wide attackers, instead of waiting to get the ball and then take on their opponent with it, now are more inclined to make runs behind the defensive line, receiving that pinpoint pass from Ôzil or my DLP; it's then a choice of shooting, passing or crossing. The same with my wing backs. Dribbling (running with the ball) produces more loss of possession, and less goal scoring chances. It's as simple as that. I very rarely need to change anything except swapping players. Not for away games, whoever I meet I have a good chance of winning anyway. Sometimes I tell my team to chill a bit if we're close to 90 minutes and leading ... just a simple "retain" instruction + lower tempo. I think I can remember one match in all my matches up till now where we didn't get the most possession and most goal scoring chances.

Giroud is not ideal for the CF role, but he still can produce in that role. Don't be afraid to use Walcott in that role. Özil in the AP/attack role has been absolutely brilliant for me, he both assists and scores plenty.

In my first FM 2016 season I won the PL comfortably as well as winning the CL. In my second season I'm on course to do the same ... hopefully. Leading the PL with 7 points, start of February. This tactical setup works, consistantly. It's just a matter of filling it with the right players. And as Arsenal, I have loads of them - if not, I have the economy to get them.

That set up is what I am working on at the moment. Whenever I am facing a big team I just tend to change Control to Counter and leave everything else the same. Would you advice on adding any additional TINor PI Wwhem playing counter

I don't change, whoever I meet, home or away. I don't find it neccessary. But if you want to play a counter game - or indeed countering "the Arsenal way" -, I suggest you look at Cleon's suggestions in his "Invincibles" thread, they seem to make sense. I personally wouldn't use a 4231 as a basis for a counter tactic, I would change to a 4411 or a 442 for that, or something with a DM in it. The 4231 lends itself to attacking, controlling and heavy pressing, not so much to countering. When I tried to replicate the Invincibles myself a while back, I used a asymmetric 4141 (or 4411 or 442, depending on how you look at it) formation with a DM, but without using the "counter" mentality as such.

The 4231 works, but the challenge is, the players. Those 2 slots and how you set up your support roles will define your success.

There are a few issues with the 4-2-3-1 that need to be addressed to make it successful how I see it.

- there is a fair amount of space between the defence and the midfield in the traditional set-up, so that has to be addressed (either through instructions or roles)

- the wide players are further up the field

- one striker means they need support

The third one should be easy to facilitate given that you have so many players in an advanced position anyway in the non-DM 4-2-3-1. There are various ways to address the other two issues but I would say the first two are the most important in terms of solidity (which will get you more wins than focusing just on creating scoring chances). A lot of variables at work when constructing any tactic, and you have to decide how you want your team to play with the 4-2-3-1.

The 4231 works, but the challenge is, the players. Those 2 slots and how you set up your support roles will define your success.

Rashidi this is how I set up below. The only PI I used is Hold Position for my CMD.

I tend to set up my front 4 the following way AML - Inside Forward Support,

AMC - Advance Playmaker Support

AMR - Winger Support

STC - Complete Forward Attack (Giroud) when Walcott or Welbeck Plays then it is Advance Forward

My Central Pairing are CMD (Hold position PI) and DLP -Support

DL - Full Back Support

DR - Full Back Support

Central Defenders - Defend

I play a Standard Mentality and my team shape is Flexible. I used retain possession and work ball into the box. I also my GK to distribute to the central defenders.

What I can see from the games is a lack of penetration from the front 4. My AMC which is Ozil does not seem to be assisting much and he looks like he has not got a lot of passing options on at times

Sometimes I have trouble with my wide players tracking back

Can you tell where I might be going wrong

Three of the front four have Support Duties in a neutral Mentality. They aren't going to offer much penetration, especially given you lower tempo and play safe passes with Retain Possession, and reduce long shots and crosses with Work Ball Into Box. You either need another Attack Duty, or a change in Mentality.

Wide players not tracking back in a tactical sense tends to be due to Attack Duties at AML/R, so your defending shouldn't be overly compromised on the flanks.

Three of the front four have Support Duties in a neutral Mentality. They aren't going to offer much penetration, especially given you lower tempo and play safe passes with Retain Possession, and reduce long shots and crosses with Work Ball Into Box. You either need another Attack Duty, or a change in Mentality.

Wide players not tracking back in a tactical sense tends to be due to Attack Duties at AML/R, so your defending shouldn't be overly compromised on the flanks.

This is where I get confused if I move it to control then does this mean I will play a very attacking game leaving gaps at the back . If I then change one of the player to attack especially on the wings then this would also leave me exposed on the wings when the attacking player moves forward.

What would happen if both the AMC and Striker both had attacking duties. Could you advice on what would be best.

This is where I get confused if I move it to control then does this mean I will play a very attacking game leaving gaps at the back . If I then change one of the player to attack especially on the wings then this would also leave me exposed on the wings when the attacking player moves forward.

It was an either / or decision. EITHER move up a Mentality OR try an Attack Duty. You could do both if you wanted. Control does mean a more aggressive, attacking playing style but it doesn't by default make you more porous at the back, you just need to get the balance right.

What would happen if both the AMC and Striker both had attacking duties. Could you advice on what would be best.

It can work just fine. Players won't blindly bump into each other, but their interplay can be a little clunky. All you need to do is make sure they have space to coexist in the same system. All you need to do is select your two Role / Duty settings for the AMC and ST and watch a match to test it. I always recommend starting a FMT save to test new tactics, maybe consider giving that a go.

It was an either / or decision. EITHER move up a Mentality OR try an Attack Duty. You could do both if you wanted. Control does mean a more aggressive, attacking playing style but it doesn't by default make you more porous at the back, you just need to get the balance right.

It can work just fine. Players won't blindly bump into each other, but their interplay can be a little clunky. All you need to do is make sure they have space to coexist in the same system. All you need to do is select your two Role / Duty settings for the AMC and ST and watch a match to test it. I always recommend starting a FMT save to test new tactics, maybe consider giving that a go.

Do you think I need to make any changes to my role and duties for my front 4 and defenders if I went to a control mentality.

Do you think I need to make any changes to my role and duties for my front 4 and defenders if I went to a control mentality.

Not really, all depends on how you want to create chances. As things stand it's reasonably balanced but you may find the striker remains a little bit on his own. Give it a try and see what sort of positions the three behind the striker end up in as attacks build.

This is where I get confused if I move it to control then does this mean I will play a very attacking game leaving gaps at the back . If I then change one of the player to attack especially on the wings then this would also leave me exposed on the wings when the attacking player moves forward.

What would happen if both the AMC and Striker both had attacking duties. Could you advice on what would be best.

It depends what you want to achieve from their movement.

To give you an example I play an attacking mentality 4-2-3-1 with the AM (A) and P (A), with the striker slightly offset to the right. This means that at certain times during the attack, the formation morphs into 4-4-2 or a 4-2-4 if the wide players are high up, but then also the AM (A) drops back into his AM position regularly to receive the ball or attack from deep. I found the key to getting this to work was the 2 center mid duties and how they combine with my full backs. I had them on DLP (D) and CM (S) roles for a while but I felt it didn't work with the players I had at full back. I switched the CM (S) to a BBM role, put both wide players on winger (S) and that really developed our attacking movement.

Usually I would always want the two CMs holding position, but with my current squad, I don't have full backs capable of attacking, and my wingers can't finish a sandwich, so are better in support roles. So instead of having a 4-2-3-1 where the full backs push up, and overlap two wide forwards who cut inside, with the AMC playing as a primarily a playmaker, I have a structured 4-2-3-1 where the full backs don't push up too far, don't cross and only link play between my wingers and central midfielders. Having the full backs not pushing up, means the BBM making roaming runs forward isn't a disaster for our defensive shape. My DLP and BBM do a lot of creative passing, with the AM(A), P(A) constantly make aggressive runs to look to score. The BBM charges into any gaps they happen to create as well and scores a reasonable amount of goals.

Now if you had the two wide players in inside forward/raumdeuter roles, there wouldn't be much value in having an AMC on an attack duty as it would get congested in the box. The only exception might be if the striker was on a false nine role or similar. However if you wanted inside forwards, you couldn't really play both the AMC and CF on attack duties in my opinion unless there was a very specific set of PPMs at play. You'd need to make sure there was someone able to do the creating, and the roles weren't simply pushing all of your players into the box.

One of the biggest issues I see on this forum are people coming on with a 4-2-3-1 saying they are conceding loads of goals from out wide, or on the counter. Then you look at their set up and they have attacking full backs, one central midfielder pushing forwards in a BBM type role, and two inside forwards. Basically meaning the team overloads the opposition box and scores through a brute force approach, but then if the ball gets turned over they are completely over committed and get countered. Then if the opposition is building possession, their attacking full backs are alone on the flanks because the IF's don't defend. This means the CM's get pulled around the pitch and space opens up in the middle if they try get drawn to help the full backs defend the flanks. If they don't get drawn wide, the full backs get caught 2v1 and they concede to crosses.

In previous FMs you could use a highly attacking 4-2-3-1 and just box the opposition in. This year you can't do that so much, so tactics which commit too many men forward and don't defend key areas of the pitch properly get totally punished.

thomit, your formation / roles / instructions makes so many sense to me that i 've tryied it and i really love how it works. IT IS solid (and it makes sense with only one attack duty and two holding midfielders and IT IS a joy to watch (and it makes sense with attacking roles, roaming, no dribbling).

I like having three ready formations and make any small alterations in between games, so in that case i want a slow control one and a counter one.

Slow control : same formation and roles, lower tempo, retain possesion, play narrower.

Counter : AMRLs back to MRLs position + Cut inside PI, WMs roles, Counter / Structured, Work Ball Into Box, Close Down More, Dribble Less, maybe Play Narrower?

Are those alterations make sense to you the way i see your tactic makes?

It depends what you want to achieve from their movement.

To give you an example I play an attacking mentality 4-2-3-1 with the AM (A) and P (A), with the striker slightly offset to the right. This means that at certain times during the attack, the formation morphs into 4-4-2 or a 4-2-4 if the wide players are high up, but then also the AM (A) drops back into his AM position regularly to receive the ball or attack from deep. I found the key to getting this to work was the 2 center mid duties and how they combine with my full backs. I had them on DLP (D) and CM (S) roles for a while but I felt it didn't work with the players I had at full back. I switched the CM (S) to a BBM role, put both wide players on winger (S) and that really developed our attacking movement.

Usually I would always want the two CMs holding position, but with my current squad, I don't have full backs capable of attacking, and my wingers can't finish a sandwich, so are better in support roles. So instead of having a 4-2-3-1 where the full backs push up, and overlap two wide forwards who cut inside, with the AMC playing as a primarily a playmaker, I have a structured 4-2-3-1 where the full backs don't push up too far, don't cross and only link play between my wingers and central midfielders. Having the full backs not pushing up, means the BBM making roaming runs forward isn't a disaster for our defensive shape. My DLP and BBM do a lot of creative passing, with the AM(A), P(A) constantly make aggressive runs to look to score. The BBM charges into any gaps they happen to create as well and scores a reasonable amount of goals.

Now if you had the two wide players in inside forward/raumdeuter roles, there wouldn't be much value in having an AMC on an attack duty as it would get congested in the box. The only exception might be if the striker was on a false nine role or similar. However if you wanted inside forwards, you couldn't really play both the AMC and CF on attack duties in my opinion unless there was a very specific set of PPMs at play. You'd need to make sure there was someone able to do the creating, and the roles weren't simply pushing all of your players into the box.

One of the biggest issues I see on this forum are people coming on with a 4-2-3-1 saying they are conceding loads of goals from out wide, or on the counter. Then you look at their set up and they have attacking full backs, one central midfielder pushing forwards in a BBM type role, and two inside forwards. Basically meaning the team overloads the opposition box and scores through a brute force approach, but then if the ball gets turned over they are completely over committed and get countered. Then if the opposition is building possession, their attacking full backs are alone on the flanks because the IF's don't defend. This means the CM's get pulled around the pitch and space opens up in the middle if they try get drawn to help the full backs defend the flanks. If they don't get drawn wide, the full backs get caught 2v1 and they concede to crosses.

In previous FMs you could use a highly attacking 4-2-3-1 and just box the opposition in. This year you can't do that so much, so tactics which commit too many men forward and don't defend key areas of the pitch properly get totally punished.

That is why I am so keen on following threads that show different formations such as

4-1-4-1. The only problem I have is that I have Ozil who is classic number 10 trying to fit him in a 4-1-4-1. Hope RTHerringbone can help

thomit, your formation / roles / instructions makes so many sense to me that i 've tryied it and i really love how it works. IT IS solid (and it makes sense with only one attack duty and two holding midfielders and IT IS a joy to watch (and it makes sense with attacking roles, roaming, no dribbling).

I like having three ready formations and make any small alterations in between games, so in that case i want a slow control one and a counter one.

Slow control : same formation and roles, lower tempo, retain possesion, play narrower.

Counter : AMRLs back to MRLs position + Cut inside PI, WMs roles, Counter / Structured, Work Ball Into Box, Close Down More, Dribble Less, maybe Play Narrower?

Are those alterations make sense to you the way i see your tactic makes?

Personally I don't like closing down more in a counter system. I like my teams to remain compact and stay in shape rather than press in a counter setup. My 2 cents, and you may have many disagree with me....

I tried to pull off a 4-2-3-1 and even made a thread about it. It was okay, but I ended up abandoning it in favour of 4-3-3ish possession tactics that are giving me better results. My main gripe with the 4-2-3-1 is that I struggled really badly to get the best out of the AMC in this match engine, on supporting roles he rarely got assists, and on aggressive attacking roles he rarely got goals. He basically contributed very little. I got frustrated, found no solution and gave up. Not sure it's a very viable tactic at the moment to be honest, you can pull it off to have okay results but I'm not sure you can overacheive much.

Hey Noikee. I've found that a Shadow Striker is quite useful in the AMC role when trying heavy possession tactics. For more direct stuff, a regular old AMC is the best, or an Advanced Playmaker if you have no other.

Hi vicenzo143. Doesn't closing down more mean that your players start further upfield to counter? Just make sure to never close down the forwards, just defenders and defensive midfielders...

I tried to pull off a 4-2-3-1 and even made a thread about it. It was okay, but I ended up abandoning it in favour of 4-3-3ish possession tactics that are giving me better results. My main gripe with the 4-2-3-1 is that I struggled really badly to get the best out of the AMC in this match engine, on supporting roles he rarely got assists, and on aggressive attacking roles he rarely got goals. He basically contributed very little. I got frustrated, found no solution and gave up. Not sure it's a very viable tactic at the moment to be honest, you can pull it off to have okay results but I'm not sure you can overacheive much.

I have had good luck getting what I want out of the amc. Ozil as an AP on support contributes plenty of assists, and tons of key passes to the wings that lead to goals.

With an attack duty he still provides assists (although not quite as many) but gets a lot more goals.

I have two 4231 tactics that are similar in a lot of ways but one uses a dlp(d) and Bwm(d) in midfield with ozil on a support duty, striker (walcott) as an AF and Sanchez as an IF on attack. So he and Walcott form the two.

The other puts ozil on attack, striker (Giroud or Luan) on support as a cf, and both wings as IF(s). The dlp moves to support and the bwm to cm(d). Here ozil and the striker form a two

I have had good luck getting what I want out of the amc. Ozil as an AP on support contributes plenty of assists, and tons of key passes to the wings that lead to goals.

With an attack duty he still provides assists (although not quite as many) but gets a lot more goals.

I have two 4231 tactics that are similar in a lot of ways but one uses a dlp(d) and Bwm(d) in midfield with ozil on a support duty, striker (walcott) as an AF and Sanchez as an IF on attack. So he and Walcott form the two.

The other puts ozil on attack, striker (Giroud or Luan) on support as a cf, and both wings as IF(s). The dlp moves to support and the bwm to cm(d). Here ozil and the striker form a two

Hi Mate do you give your front four any PI to make them link up better. Could I ask you what mentality you use for your team. I am struggling getting Arsenal to play well and I think it is down to my mentality and Team Intructions. At the moment the team plays Control and Flexible. Both my full backs are on support. The reason behind this is because I do not want to leave my wings too exposed. There is so much you have to think about when playing a 4231 wide formation.

Good to see a thread about the 4231 and how to make it work.

Interestingly to me, since I started playing FM, the 4231 seems to be the most used tactic in FM (by players as well as the AI). Perhaps with FM15 and 16 it moved more towards 4411 for the AI but still it is very commonly used.

When you watch the formations presented by the media on TV, then you also see a lot of 4231 formations, even though managers might not really use this type of concept of one formation or that it actually would be more of a 4411 instead of a 4231. Sometimes, they even show it as a 4213 moving the wingers all the way up next to the striker.

In any event, I have used this formation a lot with various levels of success. Most of the time in midfield it involves a DLP of some sort and then one other that keeps changing in my tactic.

As for the "wingers" I usually have an IF on one side and a W on the other, playing around with the duties. Unlike other formations, where you have a lone striker, I like to take advantage of the fact that you can have an "A" duty striker in this formation because you have the AMC right behind. That would usually be an AFa, or sometimes a Poacher (although since FM12 I never really managed to get much good out of the poacher, while I see others having tons of success), or a DLFa, or if a very rounded striker a CFa. This automatically changes my AMC to a support duty and due to the types of players in the AMC position, it is usually an AP (although I do use a Trq. many times).

I usually push up in this formation to close the gap between defense and midfield and then play around with the fullbacks/wingbacks usually using llama's theories based on the players ahead to create movement (IFa with WBs, Ws with FBa, IFs with WBa, Wa with FBs, etc.). It seems that in FM16 many people have tried and shown that you can actually have all in support (for a possession oriented tactic), so this "guideline" has become more "fluid"

As I push up more, I try to use a sweeper keeper, in the hope and with the theory in mind that the SK will come out a bit more as the defense is pushed up but I haven't really seen them push up that much (haven't tried SKa). With all these things in mind, the formation usually works out.

thomit, your formation / roles / instructions makes so many sense to me that i 've tryied it and i really love how it works. IT IS solid (and it makes sense with only one attack duty and two holding midfielders and IT IS a joy to watch (and it makes sense with attacking roles, roaming, no dribbling).

I like having three ready formations and make any small alterations in between games, so in that case i want a slow control one and a counter one.

Slow control : same formation and roles, lower tempo, retain possesion, play narrower.

Counter : AMRLs back to MRLs position + Cut inside PI, WMs roles, Counter / Structured, Work Ball Into Box, Close Down More, Dribble Less, maybe Play Narrower?

Are those alterations make sense to you the way i see your tactic makes?

Your "slow" alternative is basically my "chill" alternative, when I just want to see the match out. Except I don't go narrower, but maybe I should. Provided that when you write "lower tempo", you mean not adding higher tempo. Go with the default, in other words.

I'm not sure about your "counter" alternative. I know I would still want to be and play as Arsenal, even when using a countering(ish) tactic. So using the "counter" mentality, I would probably move the IF's down to ML/MR, make them be WM's, but let them (and the rest of the team) have the same PI's as they had both as default and instructed when they were IF's, except the closing down, but including the roaming. And I would probably play a "counter" mentality keeping the flexible shape, with a higher tempo than the default, and tell my players to be more expressive, and I would probably move my d-line a little bit up from default. Probably. And "work ball" does not compute in a counter tactic, in my book. I would probably lose the "no dribble" bit in such a tactic; we're not always trying to score as a result of clever passing anymore, we're trying other alternatives more - if we're not outright countering.

Edit: About Özil. In my first season he scored 8, assisted 4, PoM 4 and average of 7.56 in 34 starts. In season 2 he scored 13, assisted 6, PoM 4, average 7.85 in 32 starts. So far in my 3rd season he has started 5, scored 3, assisted 2 with an average of 8.42. Now, where's all the assists you may ask. Well Õzil's big contribution is usually not that last pass to the man who scores, but rather the one before that. That's where he is master class, both in rl and in my FM game. Just watch. Much like Bergkamp was when he played the number 10 role in Arsenal, particularly towards the end of his career. Reading the game at least 2 moves from the finish. In my game one of my IF's is usually the assist king - Sanchez usually, followed by my CF ( I use Aboubakar now), then followed by Õzil (AP), my DLP and my wing backs. Õzil is the one who provides that penultimate pinpoint pass - often from deep - to a running wingback or IF, who then provides the assist to the scorer - who may well be Õzil again. That's how a playmaker should operate.

I haven't really been tracking key passes in FM, and not sure how they are defined. But if you look at that instead of assists, I would be very surprised if Õzil don't top that list. If not, there's something wrong with how key passes are defined.

You can consider a asymmetric 4-2-3-1 AMR/AML formation. I'm currently using this. In the defending phase, 9 outfield players(except the striker wo is still likely to stay near opposition defenders) will defend which make us really hard to beat. Once we win the ball, the 2 DMs will push up to the CM line to support the 3 AMs.

I tried to pull off a 4-2-3-1 and even made a thread about it. It was okay, but I ended up abandoning it in favour of 4-3-3ish possession tactics that are giving me better results. My main gripe with the 4-2-3-1 is that I struggled really badly to get the best out of the AMC in this match engine, on supporting roles he rarely got assists, and on aggressive attacking roles he rarely got goals. He basically contributed very little. I got frustrated, found no solution and gave up. Not sure it's a very viable tactic at the moment to be honest, you can pull it off to have okay results but I'm not sure you can overacheive much.

It's a viable tactic, but again you need to make sure you construct it properly and have the right personnel. You have to know what you want to do with it as well. My first season with Liverpool (I've posted the tactic I used in the 'The Art of Possession' thread) Firmino had (I believe) something like 20 goals and 15 assists and I had a lot of rotation, but goals were spread around fairly nicely as well. If you want goals from a specific position generally you want to set your team up to create a lot for them and have them on a more attacking mentality (for example with a wide player maybe as an IF (A) or RMD (A) and then supported by a F9, AP (S) in the middle and then perhaps a W (S) on the other side or another playmaking player supporting on that side from midfield, etc. The team instructions will also determine how the team creates its attacks.

Nearly any formation is viable it's just about finding the right combination of mentalities, structure and instructions that will get it to work for you.

I tried to pull off a 4-2-3-1 and even made a thread about it. It was okay, but I ended up abandoning it in favour of 4-3-3ish possession tactics that are giving me better results. My main gripe with the 4-2-3-1 is that I struggled really badly to get the best out of the AMC in this match engine, on supporting roles he rarely got assists, and on aggressive attacking roles he rarely got goals. He basically contributed very little. I got frustrated, found no solution and gave up. Not sure it's a very viable tactic at the moment to be honest, you can pull it off to have okay results but I'm not sure you can overacheive much.

I have a similar problem in my MLS save with the Portland Timbers. Although my AMC does contribute, in his role as playmaker, he usually makes the most key passes gets a good rating, he does not get the amount of assist and goal I would expect. He often gives the assist to the assist though.

I think the problem is that we usually play on the opponents half, so the penalty box is very crowded, so he doesn't get the space to shoot on goal or to play through balls.

So far in my 3rd season, 11 competitive matches played:

Top goalscorer: Aboubakar, 9 goals. This is normal.

Highest average rating: Õzil, 8.61. This is normal, but last season it was Bellerin that ended up with the best average.

Most assists: Sanchez, 7 assists. This is normal.

Best pass completion: Coquelin, 87%. This is normal, he is my CM/defend.

Key passes: Õzil, 73 (!). As expected. (4 goals and 5 assists, btw)

It's a viable tactic, but again you need to make sure you construct it properly and have the right personnel. You have to know what you want to do with it as well. My first season with Liverpool (I've posted the tactic I used in the 'The Art of Possession' thread) Firmino had (I believe) something like 20 goals and 15 assists and I had a lot of rotation, but goals were spread around fairly nicely as well. If you want goals from a specific position generally you want to set your team up to create a lot for them and have them on a more attacking mentality (for example with a wide player maybe as an IF (A) or RMD (A) and then supported by a F9, AP (S) in the middle and then perhaps a W (S) on the other side or another playmaking player supporting on that side from midfield, etc. The team instructions will also determine how the team creates its attacks.

Nearly any formation is viable it's just about finding the right combination of mentalities, structure and instructions that will get it to work for you.

Hi Mate was Firmino your IF (A). Because I am playing as Arsenal I would Sanchez to be my main Goal Scorer. I would then use Giroud as a DLF (S) Ozil AP (A) and Walcott or Chamberlain as W (S). Could I also ask if the F9 in your tactic drop deep into the same space as the AP (S). One of the hang ups I have with 4231 is getting the front 4 to work but it looks like you are on to something if you have Firmino scoring all those goals. Did your F9 contribute with many goals. Are you following the principle of having 2 x holding players in the Central Midfield position.

Would like to get your feedback on how you think my front 4 looks so far.

Yes, my IF on the left is told to close down more, sit narrower and to roam from position. My IF on the right the same + get further forward. Central mid is a CM/defend and a DLP/support with no additional intructions. My wing backs (both support) are told to stay wider. My keeper is told to distribute to the wing backs. My CF/support is told to close down more. My AP/attack is told to roam from position. That's all my player instructions. My team is told to play a Control mentality, a "flexible" shape, with instructions to play a higher tempo, to close down more, shorter passing, to work ball into the box, to whip crosses and to dribble less. So, just one "attack" role in the whole team.

This produces - for me - most of the possession in nearly every match, home or away. Some breathtaking attacking pass & move play. I score the most and let in the least in the league. My wide attackers, instead of waiting to get the ball and then take on their opponent with it, now are more inclined to make runs behind the defensive line, receiving that pinpoint pass from Ôzil or my DLP; it's then a choice of shooting, passing or crossing. The same with my wing backs. Dribbling (running with the ball) produces more loss of possession, and less goal scoring chances. It's as simple as that. I very rarely need to change anything except swapping players. Not for away games, or whoever I meet; I have a good chance of winning anyway. Sometimes I tell my team to chill a bit if we're close to 90 minutes and leading ... just a simple "retain" instruction + lower tempo. I think I can remember one match in all my matches up till now where we didn't get the most possession and most goal scoring chances. And as a bonus, the play more often than not looks like the rl Arsenal at their best.

Giroud is not ideal for the CF role, but he still can produce in that role. Don't be afraid to use Walcott in that role either. Özil in the AP/attack role has been absolutely brilliant for me, he both assists and scores plenty.

In my first FM 2016 season I won the PL comfortably as well as winning the CL. In my second season I'm on course to do the same ... hopefully. Leading the PL with 7 points, start of February. This tactical setup works, consistantly. It's just a matter of filling it with the right players. And as Arsenal, I have loads of them - if not, I have the economy to get them.

Just tried this set up with my Wolves team and noticed a difference straight away! I'm in my third season, second in the Prem, doing well but would always come unstuck against various tactics for no apparant reason and not have as much control as I'd like. I've played five games with these instructions (I was already playing a 4231), and I've won 3-0 at home to West Brom, 1-0 away at Newscastle, 2-0 at home to Southampton, drawn 2-2 away at Man United (who before would tear me to shreds, as the game has made them ridiculously overpowered (how ironic compared to real life!)), and won 3-1 at home to Chelsea. I haven't got amazing players but I have some very good players so once the better players come in I'll be very happy! Thanks for sharing!

Hi vicenzo143. Doesn't closing down more mean that your players start further upfield to counter? Just make sure to never close down the forwards, just defenders and defensive midfielders...

Only issue I see with this is that with counter mentality, the tempo is fast from the back, but then slows around the box. If your players win the ball high up the pitch, they may never launch that quick counter attack. If the player was looking for a quick transition/attack after winning the ball high up the pitch, an attack mentality would make more sense perhaps?

I tried to pull off a 4-2-3-1 and even made a thread about it. It was okay, but I ended up abandoning it in favour of 4-3-3ish possession tactics that are giving me better results. My main gripe with the 4-2-3-1 is that I struggled really badly to get the best out of the AMC in this match engine, on supporting roles he rarely got assists, and on aggressive attacking roles he rarely got goals. He basically contributed very little. I got frustrated, found no solution and gave up. Not sure it's a very viable tactic at the moment to be honest, you can pull it off to have okay results but I'm not sure you can overacheive much.

Personally I disagree. I am using a 4-2-3-1 with great success. However it took quite a bit of tweaking to get to where I am and I did struggle with the AMC for some time

However it took quite a bit of tweaking to get to where I am and I did struggle with the AMC for some time

Care to share what ch-ch-changes did you made to make the AMC click?

Just tried this set up with my Wolves team and noticed a difference straight away! I'm in my third season, second in the Prem, doing well but would always come unstuck against various tactics for no apparant reason and not have as much control as I'd like. I've played five games with these instructions (I was already playing a 4231), and I've won 3-0 at home to West Brom, 1-0 away at Newscastle, 2-0 at home to Southampton, drawn 2-2 away at Man United (who before would tear me to shreds, as the game has made them ridiculously overpowered (how ironic compared to real life!)), and won 3-1 at home to Chelsea. I haven't got amazing players but I have some very good players so once the better players come in I'll be very happy! Thanks for sharing!

It's the other way around. Real life has made them ridiculously underpowered. In FM they are as "powered" as you'd expect them to be.

Hi Mate was Firmino your IF (A). Because I am playing as Arsenal I would Sanchez to be my main Goal Scorer. I would then use Giroud as a DLF (S) Ozil AP (A) and Walcott or Chamberlain as W (S). Could I also ask if the F9 in your tactic drop deep into the same space as the AP (S). One of the hang ups I have with 4231 is getting the front 4 to work but it looks like you are on to something if you have Firmino scoring all those goals. Did your F9 contribute with many goals. Are you following the principle of having 2 x holding players in the Central Midfield position.

Would like to get your feedback on how you think my front 4 looks so far.

Hey there if you check this post you can see what my tactical set up and instructions are (I've tweaked since then and will probably eventually make a topic about it, I'm testing a few other things first).

I wasn't talking about my tactic above I was just providing an example of how you could try to funnel your goals through a specific player. Firmino plays as a SS in the tactic I was referencing. The front 4 that you mention look fine to me. Though I would like to see how the AP (A) and DLF (S) interact in a game to see what kind of space they each occupy...I would be tempted to make it a CF (S) just for the added presence in the box and supplementary attacking potential.

The midfield 2 I tend to use in my 4-2-3-1s doesn't change much. One DLP and one B2B. For me it's a good complementary pair that can be tweaked to fit most styles and provides adequate cover for the defence (especially if you are playing with a high line).

Care to share what ch-ch-changes did you made to make the AMC click?

Ha! I see what you did there

Ha! I see what you did there

"Turn and face the strange".

"Turn and face the strange".

I love it, completely wrecking the fella's thread here with the Bowie refs Sorry OP but it's all it a bit irresistible!

Care to share what ch-ch-changes did you made to make the AMC click?

Haha

Tough to answer, as it was gradual over 10 seasons, using different players in that position. It became all about exploiting space...which took a while to figure out. It was a space oddity. Playing as Bilbao I couldn't rebuild the team and become the man who sold the world, so I had to play with what I had.

It wasn't just changes to the AMC role that have made the difference, it was changes to the entire teams way of playing. To start with I was playing a control, fluid system and struggled to get a supporting AMC playmaker working.

Due to personnel changes, I thought hey, Let's Dance with this. I've moved to an attacking, structured system with hard working, physical players and it's a great fit - they're real Heroes. This has meant I've switched from having an IF on one flank, with two static holding CM's and full backs who pushed on, and gradually ended up having two full backs who don't really push up, with a BBM in the middle (who is my Starman) behind an AM (A). The two flanks are occupied by supporting wingers.

It's really tough to explain everything effectively because there were so many gradual changes and it was over such a long period of time, especially as it was really designed to fit specifically around the players I have at my disposal.

Where are we now? You might ask. Doing quite well thanks! They really are the Golden Years, and the fans are Dancing in the Street

Hi Mate do you give your front four any PI to make them link up better. Could I ask you what mentality you use for your team. I am struggling getting Arsenal to play well and I think it is down to my mentality and Team Intructions. At the moment the team plays Control and Flexible. Both my full backs are on support. The reason behind this is because I do not want to leave my wings too exposed. There is so much you have to think about when playing a 4231 wide formation.

My 4231 that has Ozil on attack duty is nearly identical to thomit's tactic discussed above.

But I actually prefer my other tactic - it is more defensively sound and better on attack. It is what has led to the higher scoring games listed here (as well as the win over Chelsea in the community shield):

Here is the basic tactic:

The only player with PIs is the goalkeeper:

Ozil, or whoever I put in the AMC slot (Cazorla sometimes) almost always get an assist. But they definitely contribute less in terms of goals than with the other tactic having them set on an attack duty. Sanchez and Walcott (AML and ST) are the main goal scorers with this tactic).

My 4231 that has Ozil on attack duty is nearly identical to thomit's tactic discussed above.

But I actually prefer my other tactic - it is more defensively sound and better on attack. It is what has led to the higher scoring games listed here (as well as the win over Chelsea in the community shield):

Here is the basic tactic:

The only player with PIs is the goalkeeper:

Ozil, or whoever I put in the AMC slot (Cazorla sometimes) almost always get an assist. But they definitely contribute less in terms of goals than with the other tactic having them set on an attack duty. Sanchez and Walcott (AML and ST) are the main goal scorers with this tactic).

Thanks for the advice mate. I read so many threads that warns not to use a BWM in a 2 man midfield because he will leave the middle and go chasing the ball which could lead to counter attacking opportunities for the opposition. It seems that most people go with a static midfield pair. May I ask how you get on with that set up in central midfield. I see you use a BMW Defend and a DLP Defend. Do you give your BEM any additional PI. When you play away from home or against other top teams would you advice to drop the AMR/AML back to the MR/ML positions and then go on the counter. The 4231 seems to be that formations that requires a lot of thought in getting in right.

Thanks for the advice mate. I read so many threads that warns not to use a BWM in a 2 man midfield because he will leave the middle and go chasing the ball which could lead to counter attacking opportunities for the opposition. It seems that most people go with a static midfield pair. May I ask how you get on with that set up in central midfield. I see you use a BMW Defend and a DLP Defend. Do you give your BEM any additional PI. When you play away from home or against other top teams would you advice to drop the AMR/AML back to the MR/ML positions and then go on the counter. The 4231 seems to be that formations that requires a lot of thought in getting in right.

I think the fear of the bwm is overblown. There was discussion of the issue you mentioning the arsenal team thread and from what I gleaned maybe there was issue in FM15 but it's fine now. He does have hold position' activated by default after all.

So I don't add any other PIs, but I don't use a bwm if my other cm is on a support duty (dlp(s) or b2b for instance). I go with a cm(d) then. But I just started that way, for all I know a bwm would still be fine.

As for big teams. Well, as you saw, I lost to man city. But it was a close game and it was the first one of the season I didn't stick to the tactic pictured above. Once I reverted is when I recovered, just not enough.

So, honestly, I wouldn't necessarily change anything. I'd watch a bit of the game and make changes based on that. I've found myself recently adding 'retain possession' to control the game more, but with ozil, cazorla/Ramsey, and Sanchez all having 'plays killer balls' PPM and oil and the dlp defaulting to more risky passes, I find that I control possession, patiently probe around midfield and then hit Walcott or one of the fullbacks over the top. So it plays like a 'possession counterattacking' strategy.

I would certainly not drop mentality to 'counter' since it kills ball retention and limits your threat on the counter (because players won't commit to the counter as often as on a higher mentality).

Sometimes I will add drop deeper though, while still on control, and that opens up space in the attacking third. I usually do that against teams that are parking the bus though

I think the fear of the bwm is overblown. There was discussion of the issue you mentioning the arsenal team thread and from what I gleaned maybe there was issue in FM15 but it's fine now. He does have hold position' activated by default after all.

So I don't add any other PIs, but I don't use a bwm if my other cm is on a support duty (dlp(s) or b2b for instance). I go with a cm(d) then. But I just started that way, for all I know a bwm would still be fine.

Would agree with this. Interestingly a CM(D) is set to close down more and will chase the ball much the same as BWM would, so you'd effectively have two players closing down instead of holding position in this instance. I think it's totally fine as long as your team defends as a complete unit, so the forward players are also tracking back, because that makes your CM's less likely to chase the ball and end up out of position if other players are already covering the space/opposition player. Equally with full backs, the CM's will likely get pulled wide if the full backs have bombed on and overlapped and got caught out of position, which will cause all sorts of issues.

Personally I'm happy to go with two players who don't hold position in the middle and close down heavily as long as the tactical set up around them allows it to function correctly. If the user was playing with two full backs/wing backs/complete wing backs on attack, two CMs who didn't hold position, and attacking roles which didn't contribute enough defensively then you'd be asking for trouble. I think a lot of attacking 4-2-3-1's fall down defensively because people don't understand this.

I think the fear of the bwm is overblown.

I just wanted to add a concurring opinion here. The problem can be the rest of the setup, as what is pointed out in threads where there are problems with the two man midfield. bowieinspace touches on this above. You can use a BWM as long as you have someone that can screen the defense. Think of 3 man midfields that use a DM, you can put your two CMs to BBm, BWM, etc. and it is okay because you have the screen for your d-line. The CM-D does close down, but the difference is that he plays more conservatively than the BWM- his "range" for closing down is less, so he makes a more suitable holding player. But yeah, you really only need one of your midfield to screen your line, or supreme confidence in your centerbacks.

I think the fear of the bwm is overblown. There was discussion of the issue you mentioning the arsenal team thread and from what I gleaned maybe there was issue in FM15 but it's fine now. He does have hold position' activated by default after all.

Hold position is an in possession instruction. He won't 'hold position' when he closes down heavily to win the ball, as is his role.

Your setup can still work with that though, but it is often a cause of defensive issues.