Losing patience with match/engine/ tactics and its effectiveness

Yeah so if its not the incredibly stupid match engine doing my head in, its the AI'S apparent genius of figuring out my tactics after every 4 games.

That's fine, okay but then something happened that literally drove me the point of laughing, it was that bad.

So, I've always favoured a back three, in previous FM's I could do this efficiently, obviously with this one's stupid match engine, playing a back three is basically impossible (unless you know the game back to front and are able to exploit the match engine, like a few on here are able to do, I mean I've seen some non-sensical tactical set ups on here that work like clockwork).

Anyway the sheer volume and quality of crosses mean playing a back 3 is suicidal, I managed to get out of League Two with Leyton Orient through sheer will power but in League One, the crosses and corners came in and I was sacked by December.

So fine, I've moved towards 442/433/4231. All these formations are on fluid on my Pompey save. And by that I mean my team have been trained on them.

It came to my surprise as I was about to start a match with Portsmouth against Carlisle that they were playing with a 352 with attacking wide players. I thought, wow, that's my chance, I did what is recommended by all the tactic gurus on here, I responded to my oppositions tactics and attempted to exploit it.

Pass into space, play wider, played with two pacey hardworking wingers in the AML/AMR positions, kept fullbacks on support, focused passing down flanks.

What happens? well this

That's right, they completely destroy me, how? well of course, constant crosses and tearing me open down the flanks and that cross field Pirlo ball the AI seems to master in every match against me.

What do my players do in response? is there any attempt to carry out my instructions? nope, course not. They jog around the pitch with little urgency, it was probably the worse performance I've ever seen from a team of mine in FM. it's like everything just froze.

Anyway Matt Tubbs (who I sold a month earlier for scoring just once in 15 for me) scores a hat trick against me and tears my defence apart so that adds to the already brewing rage.

So I took that on the chin and said for my next match I'll change to another tactic that my team is trained up on.... 352, yep, I'm bringing it back.

So naturally this happens

I should add most of these are on control settings with a mixture of team instructions depending on the game.

So after those poor results for about the 5th time in this Portsmouth save I'm on the brink of the sack. Generally what happens is, my tactic (whatever it is) is found out, crosses and pirlo passes begin, I lose 3/4 on the trot... I start a new tactic, win 3/4.... save job...........tactic found out again, rinse repeat.

I mean I'm Portsmouth in League Two, it shouldn't be this hard? I've got the best technical players in the league so I tend to favour a passing/control game but I've even experimented with those non-sensical defensive but attacking tactics/redundant formations etc, which again will work for a few games but then eventually the crosses and pirlo passes will come in and I have no answer.

I've always felt football, especially when you're a bigger club, is about imposing yourself on the opposition but it seems to me with this FM, you have to worry about the opposition most of the time, even if you're Portsmouth and you're playing bottom of the table Newport.

It's becoming tiresome, I am not exaggerating when I say I've tried basically everything in about 4 different saves with (FC United, Notts County, Leyton Orient, Portsmouth) and it's the same inconsistent mess in regards to results.

I try to apply common sense and logic to most of my tactical decisions but pretty much 75% of the time half of that stuff will be ignored anyway but I'll get some crosses in and win a few games, but it's no fun.

A lot of folk on here insist on watching matches to see what's going wrong but most of the time the match is a complete mess in terms of the match engine. Stuff unrelated to actual tactics and just the match engine being a jerk, for instance-

- Stupid defending from crosses and cross field balls (usually affecting the user)

- getting to the byline, stopping and not crossing the ball to the guy open in the box.

- full backs crossing the ball to each other on about 5 occasions in the same phase of play.

- midfielder getting to the edge of the area, not shooting, turning around and dwelling on ball before falling over and getting tackled.

- goalkeepers being complete morons and never coming for anything ever.

- full backs on anything but defend duty never doing any defending ever.

How can you tactically take anything from this? What do I select in TI to stop my goalkeeper being a moron all the time?

What PI do I select for my midfielders to make them not run up to the edge of the box with the ball, turn around and fall over?

here's a few of my tactics, as far as I'm aware (using my footballing brain and the stuff written on here) these make sense as a set up.

Also those aren't exact line ups, Im not that stupid.

Take a deep breath. Count to ten.

You seem to be managing by sledgehammer, which is understandable given your frustration. So instead of adjusting your system to improve things when you find issues, you seem to chuck the whole thing away and start over with something completely different.

The AI never works out your tactic. Ever. It's a myth that the AI can do that. Do you actually watch matches? Pause and rewind to really take note of what happens to help you focus in on where things go wrong? How do you set your system up in the first place? Do you use pre-season to help you refine your tactic before competitive matches start?

You're throwing the proverbial kitchen sink at things hoping something will work, rather than taking the time to figure out what isn't working and making adjustments.

In terms of the 3 formations you have linked it's hard to say what the issues are as you haven't included any detail (such as team and player instructions). The first one looks particularly weak though - an AF + Poacher striker combo could be hard to pull off, and two attacking fullbacks + a BWM(support) at DM will leave your central defenders badly exposed.

There are lots of great stickies and general threads that could help you improve things. Seeing as you are so frustrated with the game, stop playing it for a little while, don't post anything else here, and use the time to have a really good read instead.

I'll just point out that in those games you posted up, I would hardly have been surprised had you been completely battered on the counter attack in both.

First tactic, 2 BPDs, wingers, no midfield screen, long balls to target man with nobody to support him. Not all the that logical.

Second tactic, Two stopper defs, no cover one. Two attacking wide players who don't track back, a midfield all on support.. plus an AFC. Its not the most logical tactic, especially against a side playing 451 with wingers who will murder the space your wide players have left.

Your 3rd tactic I have literally no idea what you are trying to achieve with that. You should consider looking at Cleons counter thread on how to set one of those up if thats what you want to do, but youve basically got two incredibly attacking stikers, a mobile midfield.. but a defensive mentality which is about keeping shape and defending. Isn't logical in the slightest.

4th one, not terrible, but why play wingers with only one man in the box. Whos going to score goals.

5th one, probably the closest to a logical tactic. But again can't see the TIs, so hard to comment.

So basically, my suggestion would be to go back to the drawing board, re-read all the best threads on here and make a start from that. Decide on a way you wish to play, and try and implement it, watch the games, see if its doing what you want it to do. Otherwise you're just shooting in the dark.

I'll just point out that in those games you posted up, I would hardly have been surprised had you been completely battered on the counter attack in both.

First tactic, 2 BPDs, wingers, no midfield screen, long balls to target man with nobody to support him. Not all the that logical.

Second tactic, Two stopper defs, no cover one. Two attacking wide players who don't track back, a midfield all on support.. plus an AFC. Its not the most logical tactic, especially against a side playing 451 with wingers who will murder the space your wide players have left.

Your 3rd tactic I have literally no idea what you are trying to achieve with that. You should consider looking at Cleons counter thread on how to set one of those up if thats what you want to do, but youve basically got two incredibly attacking stikers, a mobile midfield.. but a defensive mentality which is about keeping shape and defending. Isn't logical in the slightest.

4th one, not terrible, but why play wingers with only one man in the box. Whos going to score goals.

5th one, probably the closest to a logical tactic. But again can't see the TIs, so hard to comment.

So basically, my suggestion would be to go back to the drawing board, re-read all the best threads on here and make a start from that. Decide on a way you wish to play, and try and implement it, watch the games, see if its doing what you want it to do. Otherwise you're just shooting in the dark.

First tactic was an attempt to counter their back three, when I played with a back three I was constantly hit with long balls from centre backs, hence why I chose two BPD's to try and replicate that with the hope being that I'd play more directly up to my front three. I've got 3 players surrounding the target man, how exactly is he isolated?

No midfield screen? I've got a DLP ON defend and a CM on support, what more protection could I possibly need?

Second tactic? the stoppers are to prevent the opposition wide players getting space, this is something I've seen Cleon and a few others do. My two wide men should track back, because they're on WM not AMW. Again my understanding and from seeing others tactics is that a BBM and CM(s) help out the defence when needed. what am I supposed to do, have them all on defend duty?

Third tactic is to encourage roaming and movement and get my fullbacks going forward without the overall mentality being too aggressive. Again my understanding is that a roaming playemaker and BBM will cover a lot of ground, offensively and defensively.

The ball winner is there in the hope when I get done on the flank, he'll press it due to the fact he has close down more. The attacking midfielder will work as the joint between the midfield two and attack, I have attack duty because I want the opposition to worry about what's behind them so they're not too overpowering over my defensive mentality. Again these are things I've seen others try and recreate so you're fishing here with trying to criticize my tactics.

4th tactic was an attempt at getting crosses and scoring goals since 98% of my goals on the match engine happen this way.

Watching the games aren't telling me anything new, I have the highest possession in league, top 4 for shots on target, highest cross completion rate, generally my players do what I want until they're near the box and then stupid things that normal footballers do start happening, for instance just a few minutes ago I had a player go one on one on goal but rather than shoot he stopped and waited for defenders to tackle him. The only thing I see from the match engine that can be described as 'normal' in football, is me getting repeatedly done with balls over the top, I've made attempts to rectify this but with no success as of yet.

I should also mention I concede an insane amount of goals from corners, most of the time, these are decisive goals. These are with two sides who have defenders with good marking and jumping, I stick with default settings but once I've conceded 4/5 I switch to my own, doesn't make a difference.

Again, this is what I mean by watching matches not telling me much if every match is basically like clockwork and the exact same things happen regardless of what is done tactically.

Just out of interest, did you read my post above?

Again, this is what I mean by watching matches not telling me much if every match is basically like clockwork and the exact same things happen regardless of what is done tactically.

You should try NOT criticizing the 2 people out of the 200 that viewed your rant, that actually tried to offer you advice. You need to realise that your attitude towards your problem is the only thing in the way of you solving it.

First tactic was an attempt to counter their back three, when I played with a back three I was constantly hit with long balls from centre backs, hence why I chose two BPD's to try and replicate that with the hope being that I'd play more directly up to my front three. I've got 3 players surrounding the target man, how exactly is he isolated?

No midfield screen? I've got a DLP ON defend and a CM on support, what more protection could I possibly need?

You were hit on the counter because you are playing an aggressive tactic, plus you have 2 central defenders bringing the ball out of defence and being even more aggressive. Any long ball is going to get you.

Your 'midfield screen' isn't much of a screen. Your CM support will push forward on control mentality and lose shape, a DLP on his own isnt much of a defender. So basically you were asking to be countered.

Your TM has nobody near him. Your wingers stay wide, thats what they do. They will cross to the TM, and your AMC will stay deeper as hes on support. He might help occasionally but not enough. Your TM has to do all the work on his own.

Second tactic? the stoppers are to prevent the opposition wide players getting space, this is something I've seen Cleon and a few others do. My two wide men should track back, because they're on WM not AMW. Again my understanding and from seeing others tactics is that a BBM and CM(s) help out the defence when needed. what am I supposed to do, have them all on defend duty?

Don't just blindly follow others tactics if you don't understand them. If Cleon did it, he did it for a reason and adjusted his whole side to make sure such a thing worked. Your wide men will not track back much. Certainly a winger on attack wont do it at all, and a WM isn't a wingback or a fullback. So your wings are highly exposed, against a side who have 2 players on each flank ready to hit you on the break.

Third tactic is to encourage roaming and movement and get my fullbacks going forward without the overall mentality being too aggressive. Again my understanding is that a roaming playemaker and BBM will cover a lot of ground, offensively and defensively.

The ball winner is there in the hope when I get done on the flank, he'll press it due to the fact he has close down more. The attacking midfielder will work as the joint between the midfield two and attack, I have attack duty because I want the opposition to worry about what's behind them so they're not too overpowering over my defensive mentality. Again these are things I've seen others try and recreate so you're fishing here with trying to criticize my tactics.

But what is it exactly you want that tactic to do or be. Why pick Defensive if you have a host of aggressive roaming roles. Is it a defensive tactic, is it aggressive, whats the plan. You say you see others do it, but you don't know why or what they were trying to achieve with it. If you are referring to Cleons defensive tactics, maybe go back and re read those threads and understand WHY they work and HOW you need to get something like that to work, instead of trying to plug it into your game thoughtlessly.

Take a deep breath. Count to ten.

You seem to be managing by sledgehammer, which is understandable given your frustration. So instead of adjusting your system to improve things when you find issues, you seem to chuck the whole thing away and start over with something completely different.

The AI never works out your tactic. Ever. It's a myth that the AI can do that. Do you actually watch matches? Pause and rewind to really take note of what happens to help you focus in on where things go wrong? How do you set your system up in the first place? Do you use pre-season to help you refine your tactic before competitive matches start?

You're throwing the proverbial kitchen sink at things hoping something will work, rather than taking the time to figure out what isn't working and making adjustments.

In terms of the 3 formations you have linked it's hard to say what the issues are as you haven't included any detail (such as team and player instructions). The first one looks particularly weak though - an AF + Poacher striker combo could be hard to pull off, and two attacking fullbacks + a BWM(support) at DM will leave your central defenders badly exposed.

There are lots of great stickies and general threads that could help you improve things. Seeing as you are so frustrated with the game, stop playing it for a little while, don't post anything else here, and use the time to have a really good read instead.

Missed it the first time.

Trust me I've read almost everything and as I've said the team is doing most things right on the ball until it gets to those silly glitches in and around the area, defensively, the cross field balls and crosses are literally un defendable for me. I'd almost half accept it if it was coming from good sides but a lot of the time it isn't.

Also any attempt I make to exploit an opposition weakness seems ineffective which annoys me more than most things. That Carlisle game being the case in point.

You were hit on the counter because you are playing an aggressive tactic, plus you have 2 central defenders bringing the ball out of defence and being even more aggressive. Any long ball is going to get you.

Your 'midfield screen' isn't much of a screen. Your CM support will push forward on control mentality and lose shape, a DLP on his own isnt much of a defender. So basically you were asking to be countered.

Your TM has nobody near him. Your wingers stay wide, thats what they do. They will cross to the TM, and your AMC will stay deeper as hes on support. He might help occasionally but not enough. Your TM has to do all the work on his own.

Don't just blindly follow others tactics if you don't understand them. If Cleon did it, he did it for a reason and adjusted his whole side to make sure such a thing worked. Your wide men will not track back much. Certainly a winger on attack wont do it at all, and a WM isn't a wingback or a fullback. So your wings are highly exposed, against a side who have 2 players on each flank ready to hit you on the break.

But what is it exactly you want that tactic to do or be. Why pick Defensive if you have a host of aggressive roaming roles. Is it a defensive tactic, is it aggressive, whats the plan. You say you see others do it, but you don't know why or what they were trying to achieve with it. If you are referring to Cleons defensive tactics, maybe go back and re read those threads and understand WHY they work and HOW you need to get something like that to work, instead of trying to plug it into your game thoughtlessly.

Okay, I don't copy people's tactics, I'm not looking for a plug and play, what this thread should tell you is I'm doing the exact opposite. I have simply read through other people's tactics and stuff and implemented minor things into my own, at no point have I bit for bit copied anyone's formation or tactics, so let's just put that out there.

My understanding is that a defensive mentality with aggressive roles brings a good balance, that's what I was going for. I wanted to start from deep and move forward quickly when the opportunity arose with my players movement being key. So yeah I do think it through, I don't just 'copy Cleon'.

As for that counter and back three thing, I was at home as the favourites, I was attempting to exploit their back three and attacking wingers, yet my team made no attempt to attack the flanks which is what annoyed me because the instructions were there yet they managed to do it comprehensively even though I had two full backs.

What I find is that you're very easy to be exploited in this game but when you attempt to do the same it doesn't quite happen.

Going by what you're saying, I should more-or-less abandon any attempt to play attacking football, if I don't make my wide players attack, what exactly are they supposed to be doing?

You've also said I couldn't defend my flanks because I had attacking players where they had attacking players, so then if they have attacking players, why are my attacking players not able to exploit it, despite me emphatically attempting to make that happen.

What I see in this game, ignoring the hilariously flawed match engine, is that it is too focused on the user concerning themselves about what the opposition are doing and that's exactly what you're implying with my tactics. It's not a surprise to me that the most successful tactics seem to be with defensive/counter mentalities, only have to look through this page to see that. Any attempt to be attacking and controlling seems to be met with you being completely exposed on a regular basis by even mediocre teams and that seems a bit daft to me.

I've also taken the advice about trying to fix the gaps in your team with players with certain attributes. for instance, I was getting done with crosses and long diagonal balls so I used defenders with high jumping reach and pace but it has made very little difference.

What I see in this game, ignoring the hilariously flawed match engine, is that it is too focused on the user concerning themselves about what the opposition are doing and that's exactly what you're implying with my tactics. It's not a surprise to me that the most successful tactics seem to be with defensive/counter mentalities, only have to look through this page to see that. Any attempt to be attacking and controlling seems to be met with you being completely exposed on a regular basis by even mediocre teams and that seems a bit daft to me.

The sooner you drop this silly notion that the match engine is flawed, the better.

The game is flawed so its pointless seeking help. The game is against you, you can't win.