Fm2009 DRM

[JonPaulWild]

People may have noticed that quite a few Ea Games are now using a SecuRom DRM protection that limits you to 3-5 installs and then after that you've given the privilege of phoning them to ask them for permission to install it again.

This has caused cosumer backlash about Spore and Red Alert 3 over at Amazon and their respective forums.

I was wondering, will Football Manager 2009 have similer DRM?

I would like to know this before purchasing the game. I respect SI/Sega's rights to profit from this game and for it not to be pirated.

Thanks

[rinso]

i would assume so, as 08 was done wtih securRom protection iirc

[JonPaulWild]

i would assume so, as 08 was done wtih securRom protection iirc

I believe it's a different version of securom - where it has to 'phone home' at certain events/periods.

No one was limited to how many times you could install a copy of Fm in the past.

I'm just curious to know if Fm2009 will have DRM like Spore.

[rinso]

ahhh i see.. not sure then...

[SmurfDude]

I should hope not. I refuse to be told how many times I'm allowed to install something I paid for

It's disgraceful how EA run their business. They will resort to any tactics to milk money from people. The day everyone else follows EA's example is the day piracy increases to the point developers go out of business

[Liniert]

fm had securom?!

[rinso]

fm had securom?!

fm08 has, yes.

[megafan2005]

tbh who cares about protection UNLESS it limits installs which is a disgrace but people complain about it even if all it does is TRY in vain mostly to stop protected games get played.

[jakobx]

If it has limited installs or online authentication then its a no buy. Im ok with a cd check, anything else is just annoying. And even with cd checks i prefer those companies that remove it in later patches.

[Wakers]

it's EA's tactics that make people download games instead of buying them.

If FM09 has securom like spore has, I won't go anywhere near it until its been cracked.

These companies get what they deserve sometimes.

[philly_flyer10]

1700 odd reviews, 1600+ give Spore a 1 rating.

DRM only effects legitimate users, spore was cracked before it was in the shops.

It would be the death of FM if SI used this, it would drive people to unlimited pirated versions.

[philly_flyer10]

tbh who cares about protection UNLESS it limits installs which is a disgrace but people complain about it even if all it does is TRY in vain mostly to stop protected games get played.

So what happens when they decide to shut down the activation servers and not support the game any more, you are left with a game you bought and cannot play.

The same thing happened when yahoo closed its music download shop. All the tracks bough became useless overnight.

Customers will not stand for this. DRM doesnt prevent piracy, it drives people towards it to get a clean product.

[Nerion]

Ugh, hadn't even thought of this. It's so sad that a legal copy of a game brings along so much more issues than a pirated copy. These kind of tactics only push more people into piracy.

I really hope FM isn't going to get the same garbage included, because even just thinking of the possibility of it being in FM09 has crushed all excitement I had built up so far.

[barto123]

I'm personally not a fan of any of this type of software, on online activation or any of that stuff.... my gaming computer doesnt have an internet connection because i dont see the point in it having one, and if i'm forced to activate a game online ie. half life 2 etc i choose not to buy that game. I dont have any problem with software that checks the disk to see if its ligit, but as soon as they start messing with you is when i choose to move onto a different product.

[wardog]

Just as a point i have 3 PC's and two of them have had windows re-installed in the last year down to viruses caused by my little sister at all times FM has been intalled on them all. In total i think ive installed it at least 6 times.

Also i agree with the likes of CD keys but for f***s sake limiting the amount of times you can install a game which you paid good money for, i think that is the wrong route to go down to kill priates. I believe i you take a game and make it so people want it have an anti .ISO or .BIN protection on it as this would stop it dead rather than limiting any thing

[SmurfDude]

I like how SI add in bugs which only occur when someone cracks their game. It's been funny in the past when someone comes here posting a "bug" but those of us with legit copies don't get it

I think SI/SEGA have better business sense than to add ridiculous install limitations on to us. Leave that nonsense for EA

[wardog]

I like how SI add in bugs which only occur when someone cracks their game. It's been funny in the past when someone comes here posting a "bug" but those of us with legit copies don't get it

I think SI/SEGA have better business sense than to add ridiculous install limitations on to us. Leave that nonsense for EA

Didnt know they done that. Ive heard of Microsoft sending viruses if you have an illeagal copy of XP or Vista instead of updates. However i think this is the way to stop piracy in gaming. If you put it so bugs occour in the pirate version then people will not get it and pay for the real deal.

Weather as a limit would make people get the free/illeagal version.

Im all for this idea.

[philly_flyer10]

I like how SI add in bugs which only occur when someone cracks their game. It's been funny in the past when someone comes here posting a "bug" but those of us with legit copies don't get it

I think SI/SEGA have better business sense than to add ridiculous install limitations on to us. Leave that nonsense for EA

Not true, I looked into that, it seemed they messed it up and a proper later one was released. Of course the ones who used a complete image without a no cd didnt have to put up with that. As far as Im aware, only 1 company uses a protection like that and its very good, it doesnt install hidden drivers, doesnt affect people that bought the game yet stops the pirates from playing it.

Didnt know they done that. Ive heard of Microsoft sending viruses if you have an illeagal copy of XP or Vista instead of updates. However i think this is the way to stop piracy in gaming. If you put it so bugs occour in the pirate version then people will not get it and pay for the real deal.

Weather as a limit would make people get the free/illeagal version.

Im all for this idea.

Again not true, MS would be sued if they sent virii to users especially as lots of legitimate users were unfairly accused of having pirated windows.

As for putting bugs in the game, people would only buy the game if they knew the "bugs" were due to the protection and not just bad coding.

You download a game and its bugged to hell, you arent going to rush out and buy it, are you?

[SmurfDude]

Not true, I looked into that, it seemed they messed it up and a proper later one was released. Of course the ones who used a complete image without a no cd didnt have to put up with that. As far as Im aware, only 1 company uses a protection like that and its very good, it doesnt install hidden drivers, doesnt affect people that bought the game yet stops the pirates from playing it.

Why would you look in to it? Seems a bit suspicious knowing about all that stuff

[philly_flyer10]

Why would you look in to it? Seems a bit suspicious knowing about all that stuff

I wanted to see if SI were lying. Nothing suspicious about that or wanting to know about all sorts of DRM.

Having starforce ruin 2/3rds of my burning attempts push me into knowing about all types of DRM and wanting to know what I put on my machine and whether a company can stop me playing what Ive paid money for.

[davestu]

Why would you look in to it? Seems a bit suspicious knowing about all that stuff

Urm not at all. I for one have looked into DRM and alternative methods like the one SI had supposedly used, for reasons of being a Legit downloader of music and games. You cannot even imagine how difficult DRM makes your life.

I wanted to see if SI were lying. Nothing suspicious about that or wanting to know about all sorts of DRM.

Having starforce ruin 2/3rds of my burning attempts push me into knowing about all types of DRM and wanting to know what I put on my machine and whether a company can stop me playing what Ive paid money for.

Just like you Philli Flyer I have really looked into DRM, I have found that it does nothing more than make it harder to buy and use music online legitimately. If I had gone out and pirated all of my music I would be much better of than I am now. DRM only hurts legitimate customers.

Please don't use this system SI.

[Themistofelis]

There is only one thing more ridiculous from getting home with the new legally bought copy of "spore" (it uses SecuRom) , install it and then look for a no-cd crack ; this is going rapidshare and find that the game was cracked even before it was released in your country !

Copy protections are made to make customer's lifes difficult.

*For those that do not remember bioshock's "copy protection" ( SecuRom) had a rootkit

http://www.gamingbob.com/2007/08/23/...ncluding-demo/

[LutonNil]

fm had securom?!

which doesn't work

[Wakers]

Yea, when i first bought FM08 it would do nothing but tell me i don't have a proper version of the cd ! I HAD to use a crack to get it to work until SI fixed it.

[ABOOO]

Maybe SI will should make online confirmation with game serie no's, same as Pro Evolution Soccer online 's choise..

[Wakers]

The spore thing is a joke. I've already installed it on three computers, and at no point in the install process does it warn you about the drm crap. It wasn't until after that I found out I now cannot install it again without asking for permission. Absolutely pathetic.

[Scotty Walds]

Maybe SI will should make online confirmation with game serie no's, same as Pro Evolution Soccer online 's choise..

What about those without Internet?

[philly_flyer10]

The spore thing is a joke. I've already installed it on three computers, and at no point in the install process does it warn you about the drm crap. It wasn't until after that I found out I now cannot install it again without asking for permission. Absolutely pathetic.

Take it back, even if the shop says it was in the EULA, tell them its worthless as you cannot read that until youve bought the game. At which points most shops wont take a game back without a fight anyway.

If they refuse, make a scene. Do this on a busy Saturday for maximum effect.

[Arkim]

I remember the SecuROM issue when FM 08 was first released. It definately was a nightmare for me since everytime I tried to install the game, it kept saying I had a backup version of the disk. At first I thought it was because I bought the game in Norway since that's where I was at the time, but then came on the forums and found out it wasn't just me.

I'm glad after the patch however, that SI had fixed the problem and only required the disk to be in when loading or starting a new game. I hope they go with this route again as piracy protection schemes don't seem to work too efficiently these days, at least the route SI chose to go with last year, and only made installation of the game worse.

I'm sure SI are smart enough to come through as they always have in the past with minimal amount of problems.

[ABOOO]

What about those without Internet?

will cant play, like PES

Why do people install/download official patches without internet?

[Arkim]

will cant play, like PES

Why do people install/download official patches without internet?

Why? Why not would be a logical question, rather. Surely you would want to improve your game and have it up to date with the latest stats as well.

[Neji]

Copy protections like this does nothing for anyone. All it does is harm the genuine customer. Companies should worry less about copy protection and more about the quality of their product. If it's good - it will sell.

Using the '10 day internet activation' method as an example. Genuine customers have to activate their product every 10 days, pirates dont and they still get to play - where is the sense in that?

[ABOOO]

Why? Why not would be a logical question, rather. Surely you would want to improve your game and have it up to date with the latest stats as well.

sorry
not why, how.

i cant believe it haha, i tired :/

[Miles Jacobson]

We are not using Securom for FM09.

[Miles Jacobson]

Neji - there's no sense in that at all. However, if it wasn't for people pirating/stealing/whatever you want to call it, there would be no need for any kind of copy protection.

We are trying to come up with a system that sticks within the end user license agreement that have always been in place in our games, and which everyone who has installed a legitimate version of our games has agreed to before installing, but still offers better protection against those who decide that they don't want to pay for our work.

However, no system will please everyone, which we're well aware of. It's unfortunate that the lowest common denominator (those who pirate) cause legitimate users problems by forcing software publishers and developers to spend time, and money, protecting their rights.

[philly_flyer10]

We are not using Securom for FM09.

Can you tell us what you will be using, I would think some of us are waiting to pre order but need to know what you are using.

eg Starforce or DRM that prevents installation or needs to phone home = no sale for me on any game, no matter how good. I even refused to install a free trackmania game because it had starforce on it.

[TMLS]

Can you tell us what you will be using, I would think some of us are waiting to pre order but need to know what you are using.

eg Starforce or DRM that prevents installation or needs to phone home = no sale for me on any game, no matter how good. I even refused to install a free trackmania game because it had starforce on it.

What's the problem with stuff like that? I'm not criticising, just genuinely interested - I'm happy to use whatever system a publisher enforces as I don't do any piracy, just see it as a fact of installing the game.

[JonPaulWild]

We are not using Securom for FM09.

Good to hear, and thank you for your reply.

Neji - there's no sense in that at all. However, if it wasn't for people pirating/stealing/whatever you want to call it, there would be no need for any kind of copy protection.

Problem is though that the software gets cracked and it's on torrent sites within days, so if people want to download it...everyone knows where to go and it will be there. Pretty much making DRM worthless.

We are trying to come up with a system that sticks within the end user license agreement that have always been in place in our games, and which everyone who has installed a legitimate version of our games has agreed to before installing, but still offers better protection against those who decide that they don't want to pay for our work.

I would support a move to the steam platform. What are your thoughts and Segas thoughts regarding Steam?

[Nerion]

I believe that the majority of DRM in use today (as far as games are concerned anyway) have, at best, no effect on piracy at all, and may, in some cases, even sway a good deal of people to stop paying for games.

But I'm going to choose to be reassured by Miles' posts, assuming that SI will try to find a sensible solution that will not bother legitimate customers, so that I may begin rebuilding my excitement for FM09.

[philly_flyer10]

Starforce, interferes with optical drives making the failure rate go through the roof, can damage them too. http://www.glop.org/starforce/
Anything requiring activation, they can turn off the servers leaving you with a coaster that you paid for but cant play. Like Yahoo music recently. http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/07...f_drm_servers/

A normal cd check is fine like theyve been using, anything more will drive people to piracy.

[Nerion]

What's the problem with stuff like that? I'm not criticising, just genuinely interested - I'm happy to use whatever system a publisher enforces as I don't do any piracy, just see it as a fact of installing the game.

Not being allowed to play your singleplayer games when your connection dropped, hoping the 'service' that does the checks will not someday disappear, making your game useless.. that's just a few quick reasons, and not nearly the end of it.

All the while, a cracked version, without any of these problems, will be available before most people receive their legitimate copy of the game.

[JonPaulWild]

Starforce, interferes with optical drives making the failure rate go through the roof, can damage them too. http://www.glop.org/starforce/
Anything requiring activation, they can turn off the servers leaving you with a coaster that you paid for but cant play. Like Yahoo music recently. http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/07...f_drm_servers/

A normal cd check is fine like theyve been using, anything more will drive people to piracy.

Starforce copy protection in my opinion is the computer equivalent of dropping a bomb on some terrorists, and not being able to kill them but yet killing many innocent civilians and injuring many others.

[Miles Jacobson]

We have never, and will not (while I'm here) use Starforce.

It is more than likely that the game will require some kind of authentication - wouldn't just be online though, as many of our users aren't online or play on laptops or whatever. So whilst I like Steam a lot, we've used them before, and would love to work with them again, it couldn't be the only option (if it is to be an option).

When it's all finalised, I'll talk about it, and not before. It will obviously be finalised before launch, so people could cancel pre-orders at that point if they thought it draconian or whatever. As a customer myself of many games and software packages, I would only agree to a system being used that I would be happy using myself.

[Miles Jacobson]

Good to hear, and thank you for your reply.
Problem is though that the software gets cracked and it's on torrent sites within days, so if people want to download it...everyone knows where to go and it will be there. Pretty much making DRM worthless.

How I long for a year when one of our titles get cracked within days of release, rather then before release. If that was to happen, it would make the DRM incredibly valuable and worthwhile, actually.

[SCIAG]

I wouldn't care if there was a 5-install limit on FM. I've only installed FM07 twice.

[Neji]

I wouldn't care if there was a 5-install limit on FM. I've only installed FM07 twice.

It would annoy my alot. I do format my computer quite often so it would be a problem for me, even if you can get your installs back.

[davestu]

I wouldn't care if there was a 5-install limit on FM. I've only installed FM07 twice.

Good for you....

How is this relevant to a disscussion at all. I bet Miles is sat at his computer now saying, "Hey lads turns out it isn't a bad idea at all to use SecuRom DRM protection becuase SCIAG says he only installed FM07 twice"

[SmurfDude]

Good for you....

How is this relevant to a disscussion at all. I bet Miles is sat at his computer now saying, "Hey lads turns out it isn't a bad idea at all to use SecuRom DRM protection becuase SCIAG says he only installed FM07 twice"

Indeed. Even if I only installed it once, that isn't the point, I would still be angry knowing that at some point some morons in suits sat down around a table and said "Let's release our games with new protection. We are now going to limit how many times our customers can install our games. If they don't like it then tough, they can phone us on our premium rate phone line and beg for us to let them install it again. They will all bow down to us"

Or something to that effect...

[Wakers]

Miles - anything similar to the SPORE system (which you've said you're not using, great!) only hurts people who actually buy the game. This is also true of the protection you guys used on FM08, while it's mild by comparison, it stops the game working for a lot of people who actually bought (myself included). It doesn't effect pirates because they can effectively turn the protection off.

There has to be a copy-protection method that doesn't hurt the user in the end.

There have been a few games released in the last couple of years that used no copy-protection - what did they find out? Their sales were actually better than expected! (was it sins of the solar empire?)

[DJdeMarco]

I am in the anti-DRM camp for many reasons. Most recently because of Microsoft's Vista and XP authentication debacles but there are so many things that can go wrong and impact upon legitimate users that will never affect pirates.

If I buy software to install on my PC, I don't want rootkits installed for free and I will veer away from software that requires online activation for many reasons including the points already mentioned here and in previous posts in this thread.

It is my opinion that piracy prevention techniques should not impact in any way upon any legimate purchaser of software. Unfortunately, such a technology doesn't currently exist and, as such, I feel that all anti-piracy software does (in many cases) is frustrate the paying consumer whilst the wooden-legged, parrot on shoulder, eye-patch wearers enjoy very few problems.

I have no problems with companies trying to prevent the theft of their intellectual property but when the percentage of illegal users having problems is less than the amount of legimate users, surely it is time for a complete re-think.

To use a car analogy (which always seem popular even though the two industries are not comparable in any logical sense), most current software protections would be the equivalent of a vehicle anti-theft device that stops more car owners from driving their own cars than the thieving toerags that the devices were designed to prevent in the first place.

[Nerion]

There have been a few games released in the last couple of years that used no copy-protection - what did they find out? Their sales were actually better than expected! (was it sins of the solar empire?)

Exactly, the thing is that people have a certain amount of money to spend. Someone who has like 3 legitimate (music) cd's and 5000 mp3's, would most likely still only have bought these 3 cd's if he did not have access to these mp3's. In the world of gaming it works slightly differently, as the budget might shift from paying for games towards getting a better pc, but I am confident that the majority of publishers (and probably many developers as well) severely overestimate the impact piracy has on their actual income.

Clearly piracy is an issue, you won't hear me denying that, but I believe that the actual losses (read: a missed sale caused by piracy, as opposed to someone with no intention of buying it even if he couldn't get a pirated copy) are not sufficient to warrant alienating legitimate consumers.

[DietSpam]

I have loads of games, but what ever methods of determining if the game is real or not has never been a bother to me. Don't like the sound of this DRM though.

[Neji]

I am in the anti-DRM camp for many reasons. Most recently because of Microsoft's Vista and XP authentication debacles but there are so many things that can go wrong and impact upon legitimate users that will never affect pirates.

If I buy software to install on my PC, I don't want rootkits installed for free and I will veer away from software that requires online activation for many reasons including the points already mentioned here and in previous posts in this thread.

It is my opinion that piracy prevention techniques should not impact in any way upon any legimate purchaser of software. Unfortunately, such a technology doesn't currently exist and, as such, I feel that all anti-piracy software does (in many cases) is frustrate the paying consumer whilst the wooden-legged, parrot on shoulder, eye-patch wearers enjoy very few problems.

I have no problems with companies trying to prevent the theft of their intellectual property but when the percentage of illegal users having problems is less than the amount of legimate users, surely it is time for a complete re-think.

To use a car analogy (which always seem popular even though the two industries are not comparable in any logical sense), most current software protections would be the equivalent of a vehicle anti-theft device that stops more car owners from driving their own cars than the thieving toerags that the devices were designed to prevent in the first place.

I agree 100%.

I have loads of games, but what ever methods of determining if the game is real or not has never been a bother to me. Don't like the sound of this DRM though.

It affects alot of customers though which is why there is such controversy surrounding it.

FM 08 last year for example, SI put in 'trigger' which made it so that the international qualifiers were upside down. So those that qualify dont actually qualify at all. Pirates who use a decent no-cd crack don't have the problem but those who carried saves into the full version from a demo did have the problem even though they bought the game legally.

[JonPaulWild]

I think the DRm that's been implmented in to today's games tries to restrict the 2nd hand sales of the game at places such as Gamestation, Game and to the person's friends.

What's SI's / Segas view on some one buying FM2009 and forwhatever reason they decide to sell it to their friend. Do you view that as a bad thing, something you want to stop or don't mind it?

[Serpico]

How about putting some football scores on the bottom of the pages of the manual in a very feint ink. Then the user has to enter the result from the relevant page to play the game. Can't believe it hasn't been thought of before.

[r0x0r]

I think the ideal would be a dual check system...

If the game cd is in the drive, the game should play. Simple as that. No phoning home, searching around your pc for unsavory pornography or making you call a sex line for activation...

However, it would be nice to have a "online no cd" option, where if you are online and the cd isn't in the pc, you're able to start.

I'd also support having to have a registered account with a registered CD key in order to download the patch...


One thing that's been banded about a lot that'd also be a nice touch is a "no cd patch" 2 years after release. I don't know how much SI make from platinum sales of 2 years + games, but chances are they'd lose practicly nothing to piracy, while making it easier for genuine users with old installs who can't find their disks.

That said, I have FM06 and FM07 next to me. Not sure where FM05's gone

FM08 still lives in my bottom cd drive. The top one's reserved for things that actually change position from time to time.

[Wakers]

How about putting some football scores on the bottom of the pages of the manual in a very feint ink. Then the user has to enter the result from the relevant page to play the game. Can't believe it hasn't been thought of before.

Yea, this is very old fashioned! Remember the old kit wheels from the premier manager series on the amiga?

[davestu]

Exactly, the thing is that people have a certain amount of money to spend. Someone who has like 3 legitimate (music) cd's and 5000 mp3's, would most likely still only have bought these 3 cd's if he did not have access to these mp3's. In the world of gaming it works slightly differently, as the budget might shift from paying for games towards getting a better pc, but I am confident that the majority of publishers (and probably many developers as well) severely overestimate the impact piracy has on their actual income.

Clearly piracy is an issue, you won't hear me denying that, but I believe that the actual losses (read: a missed sale caused by piracy, as opposed to someone with no intention of buying it even if he couldn't get a pirated copy) are not sufficient to warrant alienating legitimate consumers.

Urm..I have no Cd's anymore, and well over 5000 mp3's. All bought legit, not all MP3's are pirated

Apart from that I agree with you 100% Piracy is an issue, but not as big as we are led to believe.

I am happy for many things to happen to prove the legality of my software, just not the ones that we have talked about here. To be honest things like DRM on iTunes only allowing a certain number of burns of your hard earned paid for music, is paramount to theft itself.

[Schotsmannetje]

How about putting some football scores on the bottom of the pages of the manual in a very feint ink. Then the user has to enter the result from the relevant page to play the game. Can't believe it hasn't been thought of before.

What's that gonna do then? If all manuals are exactly the same, you can just put all the results on the internet and everybody can play the game. Or do you want to print a different manual with every copy of the game? That would be incredibly expensive.

[r0x0r]

What's that gonna do then? If all manuals are exactly the same, you can just put all the results on the internet and everybody can play the game. Or do you want to print a different manual with every copy of the game? That would be incredibly expensive.

It was a joke. it's how they used to do things back in the early to mid 90's.


And no, it wouldn't work in the days of the internet. Back then it was fine though.

[Scotty Walds]

what's that gonna do then? If all manuals are exactly the same, you can just put all the results on the internet and everybody can play the game. Or do you want to print a different manual with every copy of the game? That would be incredibly expensive.

whooooosh!!

[Schotsmannetje]

sorry bout that…

Bit of a history lesson for me I guess

[wardog]

Waht about a simple answer. Release the game with no protection. Ok im being daft here, but when the knock off joe who downloads it trys to patch it, it checks to see if the CD is legitemate or just an ISO taken from an illeagal torrent site. IF its an ISO file then it checks to see where it was downloaded from, should it be leagal it works normal, should it be illeagal thenm pop tim and harry the game no longer works.

[Neji]

I am in the anti-DRM camp for many reasons. Most recently because of Microsoft's Vista and XP authentication debacles but there are so many things that can go wrong and impact upon legitimate users that will never affect pirates.

If I buy software to install on my PC, I don't want rootkits installed for free and I will veer away from software that requires online activation for many reasons including the points already mentioned here and in previous posts in this thread.

It is my opinion that piracy prevention techniques should not impact in any way upon any legimate purchaser of software. Unfortunately, such a technology doesn't currently exist and, as such, I feel that all anti-piracy software does (in many cases) is frustrate the paying consumer whilst the wooden-legged, parrot on shoulder, eye-patch wearers enjoy very few problems.

I have no problems with companies trying to prevent the theft of their intellectual property but when the percentage of illegal users having problems is less than the amount of legimate users, surely it is time for a complete re-think.

To use a car analogy (which always seem popular even though the two industries are not comparable in any logical sense), most current software protections would be the equivalent of a vehicle anti-theft device that stops more car owners from driving their own cars than the thieving toerags that the devices were designed to prevent in the first place.

sorry bout that…

Bit of a history lesson for me I guess

Being an Amiga gamer back in the day, I remember this method. Ahhh, how I miss my beloved Amiga...

[Neji]

Waht about a simple answer. Release the game with no protection. Ok im being daft here, but when the knock off joe who downloads it trys to patch it, it checks to see if the CD is legitemate or just an ISO taken from an illeagal torrent site. IF its an ISO file then it checks to see where it was downloaded from, should it be leagal it works normal, should it be illeagal thenm pop tim and harry the game no longer works.

Thats still copy protection though.

[Suzie MUFC]

It would annoy my alot. I do format my computer quite often so it would be a problem for me, even if you can get your installs back.

Same for me, I tend to format quite often too. Plus (and I know this sounds stupid, but I know I'm not the only person in the world with this problem) I have a phobia with telephones, I have to get my Mum to make calls for me which is a terrible pain - the worst being when I run out of installs for Windows XP and she having to be put on hold and then redirected to Bombay just to get a code, and barely understanding the person who's giving the instructions to her. Dreadful.

If it ever turned out this type of protection was being enforced on a future FM (or indeed any game I was interested in) I most definitely wouldn't buy it. The main principle being I've paid money for a product, why should I have to ask someone to keep it working? There must be other ways to stop the pirates instead of inflicting the punishment on legitimate users.

[wardog]

Same for me, I tend to format quite often too. Plus (and I know this sounds stupid, but I know I'm not the only person in the world with this problem) I have a phobia with telephones, I have to get my Mum to make calls for me which is a terrible pain - the worst being when I run out of installs for Windows XP and she having to be put on hold and then redirected to Bombay just to get a code, and barely understanding the person who's giving the instructions to her. Dreadful.

If it ever turned out this type of protection was being enforced on a future FM (or indeed any game I was interested in) I most definitely wouldn't buy it. The main principle being I've paid money for a product, why should I have to ask someone to keep it working? There must be other ways to stop the pirates instead of inflicting the punishment on legitimate users.

I suffer this too

[Neji]

There must be other ways to stop the pirates instead of inflicting the punishment on legitimate users.

In truth, there is no uncrackable copy protection. It can all be cracked, the big companies have some clever people but there is always someone who is just as clever hacking it.

[r0x0r]

In truth, there is no uncrackable copy protection. It can all be cracked, the big companies have some clever people but there is always someone who is just as clever hacking it.

Online only, account based gameplay where part of the code is kept on a server.

Keep that server secure enough...

Offline play, sure. :-p

[Neji]

Online only, account based gameplay where part of the code is kept on a server.

Keep that server secure enough...

Offline play, sure. :-p

Yeah, I meant to say online it can be done but for an offline game - not possible

[SmurfDude]

Online only, account based gameplay where part of the code is kept on a server.

Keep that server secure enough...

Offline play, sure. :-p

IF in the future 100% of houses have broadband, and the UK have reliable broadband that never cuts out, then I guess there's no reason not to use online servers as a way of stopping piracy. But that's a long way off, especially while we have BT hording all the phone lines. What we need is fiber optics, then we really will be at the golden age of the internet

[r0x0r]

IF in the future 100% of houses have broadband, and the UK have reliable broadband that never cuts out, then I guess there's no reason not to use online servers as a way of stopping piracy. But that's a long way off, especially while we have BT hording all the phone lines. What we need is fiber optics, then we really will be at the golden age of the internet

And what about when I want to use FM on a train?

My commute to Portsmouth 3/4 days a week would have been hell without FM a couple of years ago.

[Neji]

IF in the future 100% of houses have broadband, and the UK have reliable broadband that never cuts out, then I guess there's no reason not to use online servers as a way of stopping piracy. But that's a long way off, especially while we have BT hording all the phone lines. What we need is fiber optics, then we really will be at the golden age of the internet

Even if the net never cut out - not everyone would have 100% access all the time because of other issues, routers etc. That will never be a viable route. It it was, I would stop buying the game.

[SmurfDude]

And what about when I want to use FM on a train?

My commute to Portsmouth 3/4 days a week would have been hell without FM a couple of years ago.

Wireless internet already exists, so I'm sure in the future going online on a train or plane will be as easy as pressing a power button

[SmurfDude]

Even if the net never cut out - not everyone would have 100% access all the time because of other issues, routers etc. That will never be a viable route. It it was, I would stop buying the game.

Of course it will be viable. Good job not everyone is so defeatist, we'd never of got people in to space. "This is impossible, blah blah blah"

[r0x0r]

Of course it will be viable. Good job not everyone is so defeatist, we'd never of got people in to space. "This is impossible, blah blah blah"

Okay, sure. The day there is 100% uninteruptable internet, free of charge, both throughout the entire UK and abroad anywhere I ever go on holiday, I won't oppose having to go online to start a game.

Then again, that'll be the day after I set up the first moon brothel.

[SmurfDude]

Okay, sure. The day there is 100% uninteruptable internet, free of charge, both throughout the entire UK and abroad anywhere I ever go on holiday, I won't oppose having to go online to start a game.

Then again, that'll be the day after I set up the first moon brothel.

I imagine 10 years ago when we were dialing up to the internet that people never thought they'd have such easy and cheap access to the internet where we can download an mp3 in 5 seconds, instead of 20 minutes. But look where we are. It would be foolish to think it won't progress much further

[Smac]

How about putting some football scores on the bottom of the pages of the manual in a very feint ink. Then the user has to enter the result from the relevant page to play the game. Can't believe it hasn't been thought of before.

Thats actually the very first DRM model. Was used on PC games in the 80's! Was left behind for good reason.

[x42bn6]

As long as it's not StarForce I'm happy.

I'm pretty sure every gamer has SecuROM "installed" on their system anyway...

[kiwityke]

IF in the future 100% of houses have broadband, and the UK have reliable broadband that never cuts out, then I guess there's no reason not to use online servers as a way of stopping piracy. But that's a long way off, especially while we have BT hording all the phone lines. What we need is fiber optics, then we really will be at the golden age of the internet

Only one problem with that matey not everyone lives in Britain...and I will become Pope before New Zealand gets broadband even worthy of the name, never mind fibre optics.

[McGeady10]

I have no issue with SI Games protecting there rights but we have three PC's in the house (my desktop, laptop and my brothers laptop) and FM is installed in all of them. If it gets to the stage everytime I reinstall I have to phone then I'd be pretty annoyed as I've been a loyal customer who's bought a legit copy of the game since CM 92/93.

PS: I hate even the CD checker... On an old laptop I had my CD drive broke and only way I could play CM was to buy an external USB DVD player

[Themistofelis]

There are games like " galactic civilisations " and "Europa Universalis" that do not have a copy protection system but require a serial number in order to download patches and other staff , GC and EU3 sold very well .
The fact is that everything is available online and accept it or not it is up to the customer if he is going to pay for your work or not , spending money and time developing protection tools is just a waste .

[fabioke]

I think that the best strategy would be if Si sends many cracks everywhere and that the game says in december. Would you like to advance? Now buy it :d

[Miles Jacobson]

As can be seen from this thread, there is no easy answer to any of this. And it's not just a problem limited to video games, or the entertainment industry. Nor is it a new argument at all.

I am anti the need to have door locks. I am anti the need to have insurance at home for theft. I am anti needing to have an alarm at home to be able to get insurance, despite having locks, in case of theft.

Unfortunately, to be able to get insurance where I live, I need to have an alarm. And special locks. Which costs a lot of money each year, and is an inconvenience to the user (me), as I have limited keys for the place I live (although I can get more cut, but calling up the place that I got the locks from and having a proof of purchase (password)), and if I leave my keys in the office, I cannot get into the house without going back to the office to get the keys.

It is always the case that legitimate users suffer because of dishonest people. I cannot think of a single thing I can purchase where this isn't taken into account. It's just part of life.

However, we will do everything we can to ensure that the legitimate customer suffers as little as possible, whilst providing as much protection as possible to stop people stealing our game. We know we can't stop it 100%, but we have to try.

[philly_flyer10]

Wireless internet already exists, so I'm sure in the future going online on a train or plane will be as easy as pressing a power button

So what about people who live in the country miles from anywhere? They havent even got 100% phone coverage yet so BB coverage is a long way off.

What about all the other countries, Eastern Europe? The US? Australia. You really reckon they will have 100% BB coverage there?

[DJdeMarco]

It is always the case that legitimate users suffer because of dishonest people. I cannot think of a single thing I can purchase where this isn't taken into account. It's just part of life.

However, we will do everything we can to ensure that the legitimate customer suffers as little as possible, whilst providing as much protection as possible to stop people stealing our game. We know we can't stop it 100%, but we have to try.

Alas, this is true and I can certainly appreciate the reasons why software companies use copy-protection/DRM methods.

There are a lot of games I would like to have played in the last few years but won't due to the piracy-prevention techniques employed.

The good thing is (as has always been the case) that SI's protection methods are far less draconian than a lot of other software producers and for that I am thankful.

[Schotsmannetje]

Unfortunately, to be able to get insurance where I live, I need to have an alarm. And special locks. Which costs a lot of money each year, and is an inconvenience to the user (me), as I have limited keys for the place I live (although I can get more cut, but calling up the place that I got the locks from and having a proof of purchase (password)), and if I leave my keys in the office, I cannot get into the house without going back to the office to get the keys.

Yeah same here, it's a real pain. If your house gets plundered, and you haven't got the latest super-deluxe hyper-modern ultra-safe fully-computerized self-thinking locks with integrated coffee-machine, the insurance company says "Oopsy-daisy, can't help you sir! Your locks don't meet our standards."

Anyhow, to stay on-topic: It seems to me as if the continuing development of different types of copy-protection systems is just a source of inspiration for hackers. The more and better the security, the more fun for hackers. It's sad, but true.

[HHUK]

It's inevitable, whatever is released will get cracked. Some games however, don't often get cracked due to lack of interest or darnfangled awkward activation systems like eLicense.

Online activation is the only real way nowadays to ensure less piracy happens, sure.. somebody could bypass the activation but that's a hell of alot more work than a crack.

In Spore's case, it's actually more beneficial if you're a regular formatter to own a pirate version as you can install it as many times as you like. The only bad thing is you miss out on user created content. I bought the game especially for the content though.

Games like Sins of a Solar Empire released with no copy protection and was hugely successful, lots of people preordered, it topped the software charts in USA stores and recieved boatloads of praise from the hardcore PC gaming community. Not bad for a game with minimal advertising, riding to success with nothing but solid reviews and a promise of no added rubbish.

I'd like to see FM released without copy protection, or if needs be, online activation. Anything to stop the stupid bug that thinks I'm using a pirate copy, it changes my currency to Euros every few minutes. The best way to annoy a loyal customer since CM2.

[Neji]

Games like Sins of a Solar Empire released with no copy protection and was hugely successful, lots of people preordered, it topped the software charts in USA stores and recieved boatloads of praise from the hardcore PC gaming community. Not bad for a game with minimal advertising, riding to success with nothing but solid reviews and a promise of no added rubbish.

Exactly, the products speak for themselves. If they are good - they WILL sell.

[r0x0r]

I imagine 10 years ago when we were dialing up to the internet that people never thought they'd have such easy and cheap access to the internet where we can download an mp3 in 5 seconds, instead of 20 minutes. But look where we are. It would be foolish to think it won't progress much further

The problem is there are technical limitations that aren't so easy to get around.

Firstly, mobile internet is unlikely to ever be free. Therefore a lot of people will never have it.

Secondly, there will always be people who for one reason or another prefer to keep a certain gaming machine offline.

Therefore, as I said, we won't see a day when i can go anywhere on earth and always have perfectly working, free internet. There's no reason for the companies to give it away free for a start.

And until then, plenty of FM players won't be able to play when they want to if the game needed an internet connection at all times.

[r0x0r]

As can be seen from this thread, there is no easy answer to any of this. And it's not just a problem limited to video games, or the entertainment industry. Nor is it a new argument at all.

I am anti the need to have door locks. I am anti the need to have insurance at home for theft. I am anti needing to have an alarm at home to be able to get insurance, despite having locks, in case of theft.

Unfortunately, to be able to get insurance where I live, I need to have an alarm. And special locks. Which costs a lot of money each year, and is an inconvenience to the user (me), as I have limited keys for the place I live (although I can get more cut, but calling up the place that I got the locks from and having a proof of purchase (password)), and if I leave my keys in the office, I cannot get into the house without going back to the office to get the keys.

It is always the case that legitimate users suffer because of dishonest people. I cannot think of a single thing I can purchase where this isn't taken into account. It's just part of life.

However, we will do everything we can to ensure that the legitimate customer suffers as little as possible, whilst providing as much protection as possible to stop people stealing our game. We know we can't stop it 100%, but we have to try.

It's a matter of cost/benefit though. If people refused to get alarms and fancy locks and just did without insurance, the insurance companies would lower their demands in order to stay in business. Hopefully we'll see a similar thing with the extremely draconian DRM measures; people need to not buy, so the companies change their mind. While people are willing to put up with it, someone will always try pushing it to a new extreme.

The problem is though with DRM, it can be a real tricky thing. No DRM at all, and you are kind of asking people to pirate the game. Take CM2 for example. Install once, play forever with no CD. What playground didn't have a disk making the rounds? Too much DRM and genuine customers leave, refuse to buy the product or it's sequels, and sales are hit. I guess your job is to find the balance. Something that hurts illegitimate users, or at least makes it hard for them, yet has no (or minimal) impact on a genuine customer's enjoyment. With things like Spore and Bioshock, pirates actually have a BETTER product than genuine users. They don't have to put up with background processes so have better framerates. They don't have to put up with limited installs. When that happens, the publishers have scored a major own goal. They are actually pushing genuine users towards piracy, just like record labels who won't let you burn your new cd onto your ipod push people towards music piracy.

So long as FM's DRM is unintrustive enough that it doesn't lower my enjoyment of the game, the team is doing a good job. However my game experience should always be equal or greater than the game experience of a pirate. There lies the golden rule.

I'm sure no-one (bar perhaps EA) would disagree with that.

[roberto922]

Thank god FM 09won't have limited installs, in the last 6 months my laptop has broken down 3 times and has been formatted by Sony during repair, it'd put me right off if I had to ask for permission to install a game I've paid £30 for.

[roberto922]

The problem is though with DRM, it can be a real tricky thing. No DRM at all, and you are kind of asking people to pirate the game. Take CM2 for example. Install once, play forever with no CD. What playground didn't have a disk making the rounds?

Hehe those were the days, me and three mates on my street shared a disk for CM 01/02, I used to go for a walk to each house and give them the disk to start their games up before taking the discs out and going to the next one ready for a network game

[bigdaddydave]

It's inevitable, whatever is released will get cracked. Some games however, don't often get cracked due to lack of interest or darnfangled awkward activation systems like eLicense.

Online activation is the only real way nowadays to ensure less piracy happens, sure.. somebody could bypass the activation but that's a hell of alot more work than a crack.

In Spore's case, it's actually more beneficial if you're a regular formatter to own a pirate version as you can install it as many times as you like. The only bad thing is you miss out on user created content. I bought the game especially for the content though.

Games like Sins of a Solar Empire released with no copy protection and was hugely successful, lots of people preordered, it topped the software charts in USA stores and recieved boatloads of praise from the hardcore PC gaming community. Not bad for a game with minimal advertising, riding to success with nothing but solid reviews and a promise of no added rubbish.

I'd like to see FM released without copy protection, or if needs be, online activation. Anything to stop the stupid bug that thinks I'm using a pirate copy, it changes my currency to Euros every few minutes. The best way to annoy a loyal customer since CM2.

Online protection is no more difficult to crack than normal protection. If you look around many commercial software such as Sony products, Adobe etc. which have online activation are easily cracked. Sometimes simply blocking a program accessing the net via a firewall is enough.

[r0x0r]

Hehe those were the days, me and three mates on my street shared a disk for CM 01/02, I used to go for a walk to each house and give them the disk to start their games up before taking the discs out and going to the next one ready for a network game

Back with CM2 you didnt need the disk to start the game at all.

One disk. borrowed once. play CM forever.

The disk swap thing would work today even.

that said, most "pirates" won't be walking up and down a street swapping who has a game to load up, so it's not really an issue.

[Nerion]

Online protection is no more difficult to crack than normal protection. If you look around many commercial software such as Sony products, Adobe etc. which have online activation are easily cracked. Sometimes simply blocking a program accessing the net via a firewall is enough.

Exactly, the only difference is when it's a multiplayer game. Online functionality can be ripped out/disabled just like any other form of copy protection, but this does little good when the entire game is based on online functionality.

[Ranbir]

I prefer if SI went with Stardock and the principles they laid out to help benefit the industry for everyone. I also recommend reading on Brad's elaboration of those principles.

Although doubtful Sega would be willing to understand?

The only activation I want is when I go to download my free updates and content, where I must prove I bought the game. Given how every game seems to need the updates, I think that'll be a swell idea!

Also, please publish on the Impulse platform!

We know we can't stop it 100%, but we have to try.

I'd prefer that trying went into something that was going to end up 100%. Like further investment into the game itself, or post launch content (more patches and the like)

Don't be fooled in thinking that a pirate sees copy protection and finds himself having to buy the game. He wasn't going to buy the game anyway. Pirates will always pirate, let them. They don't matter. We do, the paying customers. Focus on us. We are buying FM because we like it and want to support you. We're not buying it because of the protection you've put in place.

[Themistofelis]

Don't be fooled in thinking that a pirate sees copy protection and finds himself having to buy the game. He wasn't going to buy the game anyway. Pirates will always pirate, let them

You are wrong on that , there are many , many game collectors browsing rapidshare for new games to download , play and then buy if they like . Cracked copies are part of marketing because not everyone goes to IGN or gamespot to read about new releases & not everyone trusts sites getting "exclusive reviews/previews " .
Would i ever bought "Oblivion" if i had the chance to play it extensively and not trusting the reviewers who played it for 3-4 hours failing to see how shallow it was?
I think not.

*I am not in any way say that piracy is good , what i am saying is that not all people downloading cracked copies are pirates .

*This does not only applies to software , google and read how "the man from earth" movie became famous

[Ranbir]

You downloaded it; The protection on it didn't force you to buy the game. Where am I wrong with that?

[Themistofelis]

You downloaded it; The protection on it didn't force you to buy the game. Where am I wrong with that?

The protection often forces you not to buy the game