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Advice on how to improve 4312 Narrow.


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Right guys here we go, I wanted to improve my 4312 Narrow, I manage Wigan, We are still in first season league 1, I am currently tweaking the tactic, also I just need a pointer in the right direction, Some advice on what I could do to improve it.

Here are my results: http://postimg.org/image/up597dx2r/

Some of the results, Well most of the results look ok, But the performances aren't that good, And for some of the games we won. We just seem to manage to outscore the opponents in some games. We lost a game 3-2 from 2-1 up we score to make it 2-1 and then 2 mins later it's 2-2 and last few mins they score a free kick to beat us. In some of the games we are so close to dropping points, But we manage to hold on or hold on and score o make it game over.

Here is my tactic: http://postimg.org/image/m85qwgsdv/

I don't use player instructions is that a problem? Also I probably need to change the to roles up front but they both scores goals so unless you guys think I should change otherwise I will keep. I also struggle with my AM, he's got a very poor rating in games.

Here is my team instructions: http://postimg.org/image/urp4u80qb/

To note allot of my goals come from crosses, I have now down to these instructions, But I am consistently getting different things to do by my Assistant Manager, He say's to add this instruction, Also we should remove this instruction. In games and in his reports.

Just one last thing to note, In games we don't seem to get many shots on target and we struggle with possession some games.

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Hi

I am by no means a tactic guru, but i do still think i can point you in the right direction(hopefully ;) )

I see you have a wba on the same side as ur cma, which means your left flank will be pretty vulnerable, maybe switch the two cm roles around, so you have a support/attack duty partnership on each side. Also you have clear ball to flanks ticked, but you only have full backs who would probably be deep, when the ball is cleared, so I would think that your players would just be kicking it out for a throwin. I hope any of this is helpful :D

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I'm no guru either but I did play a 4312 last year which was up and down but better than most I tried. Anyway my tuppenyworth on what glares at me.

1. You have pass into space and clear to the flanks. But as Jfh says the only players you have wide are your full backs so where is the ball being cleared to?

2. I personally wouldn't have pass into space with shorter passing but that's just a preference.

3. Up top I think you have two very specialist roles with very little movement. A poacher will be predictable off the last defender and the TM will be very static. Also I believe that with a TM the team plays more direct balls to him which goes against short passing. You may be trying to keep possession by passing shorter then launching balls toward the TM in the last quarter but I am unsure if you want to do this. If you want shorter passing right through then a DLF S may be more use than a TM.

4. Again agree to an extent with Jfh about a host of attacking roles on the left hand side. Yes you could swap the CM roles around but it's a quandary I have never really solved. I can see the thinking as you are obviously trying to push your CM into the space left by the poacher but it is very attacking on that side. Others will be able to advise on this.

5. You have 4 specialist roles, with be more expressive, with a fluid philosophy and tighter marking. That says to me a lack of shape, especially in a 4312. Against a 4312 that would probably be ok but tighter marking against other formations may pull your players all over the place..

There are several ways to skin a cat so you could change some roles like poacher to AF and TM to DLF. Maybe take off the tighter marking or stick with the roles you have and change to flexible. Maybe even try taking off be more expressive.

Trial and error really and others will help you far more but I think the biggest glaring thing is number 1, I think you are just gifting possession to the opposition.

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Thankyou both Sussex Hammer and Jfhgaming,

I will now try and change the roles you say give it a try, Yes possible that I'm gifting the opposition possession, Also will change the team instructions,

Well I have noticed that they try to pass the ball to the flanks, Where my fullbacks will be, So they can cross a deadly ball in.

Also this season tactic will just be this season only, possibly, With only a small budget and most of players I have meant just play narrow for the time being,

Just another last question if players are in low green for the role suitability will that affect anything?

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Just another last question if players are in low green for the role suitability will that affect anything?

This is an interesting part of FM16 that I haven't worked out as yet. For example one of my players Manuel Lanzini is down as "accomplished" as a central midfielder. However on all CM roles bar one he is either "awkward" or "unconvincing". Only as a AP is he listed as "competent" but that is as high as the CM roles go, so it begs the question as to why he is listed as "accomplished" in CM. Time and experimentation will tell I guess.

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This is an interesting part of FM16 that I haven't worked out as yet. For example one of my players Manuel Lanzini is down as "accomplished" as a central midfielder. However on all CM roles bar one he is either "awkward" or "unconvincing". Only as a AP is he listed as "competent" but that is as high as the CM roles go, so it begs the question as to why he is listed as "accomplished" in CM. Time and experimentation will tell I guess.

Yeah I guess also it wont take long for them to learn the role.

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Must say I have given up on a 4312 this year. Did ok with it last year but it seems to get ripped apart down the wings this time around. Will be interested to see how you get on.

ok, I ended up finished 3rd got had very good chances to win league, but slipped up losing to bottom of league, 1 nil a home and they had 10 men, then last game at home to Barnsley, all we had to do is win and we are promoted, but we drawed, then in our play off semi drawed away at Sheffield United lost in our 2nd leg at home, so I am going to start all over again,

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I am not going to give you advice on what to change in your tactic per se but give a good bit of advice I gave myself when trying to figure out why my tactic was failing now and then.

look at the details of the opposition teams that beat you. What formation did they use. what roles.

I did this with my tactic and found that I would seem to lose against very specific tactics and so rather than wholesale sweep changes to my tactic, I just focused on beating the specific tactic that was beating me.

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Ok thankyou, I will do what you say, although I said I was giving up with 4312, I am decided to stick with it than just give up.

I agree with your decision to keep trying with what you have. Finishing 3rd means you have a decent base to work from and just need to tweak.

For the most part, all I had to change with my tactic was shifting the mentality from Attacking to Counter and dropping the Get Stuck In TI. Never changed player positions or roles at all.

Good luck with it

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I am not going to give you advice on what to change in your tactic per se but give a good bit of advice I gave myself when trying to figure out why my tactic was failing now and then.

look at the details of the opposition teams that beat you. What formation did they use. what roles.

I did this with my tactic and found that I would seem to lose against very specific tactics and so rather than wholesale sweep changes to my tactic, I just focused on beating the specific tactic that was beating me.

Building off of this, as someone who also uses this same tactic, it's important to look at your wingbacks specifically in relation to the opposition team. I find if I'm playing a 4-4-2 or winger 4-3-3 I'll keep both my wingbacks on support and cut down on their crossing and risky passing to minimize their chances of being caught out 2v1.

Against teams who have formations with only 1 player on each flank, I tend to compare my wingbacks to theirs directly. If I feel mine are better, ill set them to attack and try to control the wings.

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I agree with your decision to keep trying with what you have. Finishing 3rd means you have a decent base to work from and just need to tweak.

For the most part, all I had to change with my tactic was shifting the mentality from Attacking to Counter and dropping the Get Stuck In TI. Never changed player positions or roles at all.

Good luck with it

Ok, I'm just tweaking the instructions a bit.

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It looks reasonable, just don't see the point in clearing to the flanks. Your left flank is going to be exposed by the fact the WB and CM on that side are very aggressive, something to consider.

Ok I am sorry I have changed.

Here Tactic Change: http://postimg.org/image/xb03ghi2b/

Here Team Instructions Change: http://postimg.org/image/rbgxqkmnn/

Must say I cant seem to settle on the team instructions, what do you think?

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Building off of this, as someone who also uses this same tactic, it's important to look at your wingbacks specifically in relation to the opposition team. I find if I'm playing a 4-4-2 or winger 4-3-3 I'll keep both my wingbacks on support and cut down on their crossing and risky passing to minimize their chances of being caught out 2v1.

Against teams who have formations with only 1 player on each flank, I tend to compare my wingbacks to theirs directly. If I feel mine are better, ill set them to attack and try to control the wings.

Good idea, considering I'm in league 1, we play a lot of teams who play like 532, I may try this what you do.

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Ok I am sorry I have changed.

Here Tactic Change: http://postimg.org/image/xb03ghi2b/

Here Team Instructions Change: http://postimg.org/image/rbgxqkmnn/

Must say I cant seem to settle on the team instructions, what do you think?

I am wondering if the exploit the middle and pump the ball into the box might actually conflict in some way as the pump the ball TI is more route 1 direct and exploit the middle is more creative passing.

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I am wondering if the exploit the middle and pump the ball into the box might actually conflict in some way as the pump the ball TI is more route 1 direct and exploit the middle is more creative passing.

So far I have won the last 4 matches and away to Peterborough so just started 2nd half but I have paused it they have had no shots in the first half we had 6 with 52% possession but I'm gonna remove pump ball into box.

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I've started using this shape for my L1 side recently as we have a lot of CMs and Strikers at the moment. I'm going to be basing it off AC Milan's famous 4-3-1-2: http://www.zonalmarking.net/2010/01/22/teams-of-the-decade-14-milan-2002-07/

As I don't have 3 very creative players though, I'm going to play it a little differently and modify the tactic to suit my own players. Here is the tactic:

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  • In this match, Dawson will be playing as the Pirlo role. I want him to mainly sit deep and ping balls to my full backs if they are free. He may also bypass the midfield if he sees a good opportunity to put a long ball over the top.
  • Tafari Moore is one of my best players hence I want him to attack. I anticipate he will be my main assister (via crosses) throughout the season. Because of this I will need one of my CMs to cover for him which is why I have set the rightmost player Scampini to CM(d).
  • Jones will be my other main assister from central. I want him to run the midfield and he will have plenty of options around him to pass to. Here I have him set to "Move into channels" as I want him to position wider to support the attacking fullbacks more often.
  • To exploit the space that Jones may provide by drifting across, I have Kane Ferdinand playing as the BBM. I feel I have enough cover with a DLP(d) and CM(d) to do this. I want him to get in the box late and hopefully he will be unmarked and able to score from a cross or cutback.
  • I am playing a Counter tactic as I would like to keep men behind the ball. Being newly promoted and one of the weakest teams in the League I feel this is a necessity. The slower pace of play outside of transitions also gives my fullbacks time to get involved in the attacking phase. However as I am playing a narrow tactic I opt to use the Play Wider instruction to provide some width for my team. I am debating between the Structured or Very Structured team shape but it is between these two as I want my players to do very specific things. I will need to test this.

I'm still undecided about the WB(s) and CM(d) roles but I am going to tweak these if necessary over the course of the next few matches.

For this first match we are playing Luton away. This is a crucial chance to secure points from another team who won promotion with us in the previous season. I've captured what I think are good examples of the way I want my tactic to function:

[video=youtube;ASubc5-aOqQ]

First clip:

I feel as if this goal has everything I wanted my players to do as described above. We are off to a good start.

Second clip:

Here is a good chance that unfortunately did not go in. If the first goal was a model example of a chance from out wide, this is how I want my attack to work from a central position.

So far so good. I especially like the natural diamond that forms in the middle during build up plays:

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This is a good example of that with Jones at the top of the diamond, and Dawson at the bottom. This is a good shape which provides lots of passing opportunities and keeps possession well.

With the roles distributed in my tactic I am happy that there is almost always a player open to receive a pass.

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Here, Hoyte (subbed on for Moore who got tired) opted for the cross which was a bad decision as it got blocked immediately. However you can see he has 3 options for a pass as well if necessary.

This is one disadvantage of the tactic. I require a lot from my fullbacks to stretch the play and provide width, and means they have to run up and down the field a lot. Late in the game they can run low on stamina and if I don't sub them then we may concede a goal from the flank as the full back will not have the energy to close down wide players from crossing.

In the end I won this game 2-0. It is good to see we are strong defensively as well only conceding 2 shots on target. I think this is down to keeping men behind the ball with a Counter strategy. We also retained the majority of the possession, and although this was not an initial aim of mine it is nice to see this occur probably from the diamond shape I described above.

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I quite like how this plays initially but will need to try this out more often to iron out any issues. My main worry at the moment is my left fullback not being involved as much as I would like. However if I set him to attack more there may not be enough cover at the back. I will try both ways but this might be one of those things I need to keep changing according to how each match is playing out. I presume the CM(d) role is the same here as I may need to set him to a CM(s) role at times.

I do also have some PIs set related to closing down. Essentially I do not want my DLP or CBs to close down at all (they are set to Much Less) as I want to keep a strong defensive triangle here. My fullbacks and 2 other CMs have "Less", while my front 3 are all set to close down more as they should be able to leave their position without compromising the defensive shape I want.

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My next game saw me at home to Preston, who were touted as the 3rd favourites at 6-1 odds in the season preview. This will be a good challenge for this tactic.

It was a tough game but we managed to see them out 1-0, with the goal again coming from the BBM (this time I played Scampini there). I'm really happy with this role and how it plays out.

Here's the goal, this time i uploaded at a slightly higher quality:

[video=youtube;D-pR02EcCIg]

  • I'm pleased with the way the midfield 3 interact with each other, though the CM(d) does crowd the DLP(d) a little bit. I am going to try him as a CM(s) next match to see how this affects the shape.
  • Again it's evident that the AP(s) really runs the show (here the AP is Vorobjovs).
  • While the goal was a bit of magic from the BBM, he could always have passed it onto the DLP(a) (Jones this time) if he didn't feel like shooting. It's nice to see how far up he gets and is looking to be a real goal threat. I was thinking I may need to make him a CM(a) to get this behaviour but the BBM seems to be excellent.

Just to show the amount of ground covered by the BBM:

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I also noticed he helps cover the flanks which is crucial especially as we are playing without a wide midfielder. I couldn't find the highlight where I saw it but you can see he does attempt some tackles wide left.

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I'm also happy with the way the AP(s) runs the midfield. His passing is spot on how I want him to play as the link between the midfield and attack.

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I am satisfied with the DLP, but he does try a few too many long passes which get mostly intercepted (as you can see in orange below). I'm not sure what to do about this as we do have a lot of possession already so it may be worth the risk. On the off chance one goes through it will likely lead to a good chance. This is one to monitor in the future.

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This was a great result especially against a team playing 4231 narrow where I would normally expect to cede the centre due to a mismatch of 4vs5 in the middle (our 3 CM and 1 AM vs their 2 CM and 3 AM). However we managed to hold our ground there and our goal even came through the middle. I put this down to the strong diamond shape the roles create which you can see throughout the entire build up to the goal in the video.

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The next game was against Oldham Athletic

We managed to draw 1-1 and it is always good to concede a goal to see how that happens and where the weaknesses are in your tactic. First of all here are the two goals:

[video=youtube;4GSZBokUZ0s]

First clip: Their goal I feel wasn't really a result of tactics, rather it was due to Dikamona's (our CB) poor marking of Watmore (their striker) who he allowed to have enough space to get a shot off. The only part that is slightly worrying is it came after I set the CM(d) to a CM(s) and the buildup came down the flank where I made that change. I can't tell if that is why we conceded but I don't think so. It is important to distinguish whether you concede due to a tactical error or a simple mistake. I feel this goal came more from a simple mistake as it could have been avoided had he been marking the striker better. It's not like we had a numbers disadvantage from an overload or anything like that.

Second clip: Our goal where again, the buildup came through the middle. It just goes to show that just because a player is set to a Support role doesn't mean he can't get forward when required (he doesn't have any movement PPMs either). It's turning out slightly differently to where I anticipated most of our assists coming from the right rather than the middle so perhaps I was wrong there. It's still early days though so we will see going forward.

Now what I was testing in this game was how a CM(s) plays compared to a CM(d). I do like how he is positioned slightly higher so as to provide a better outlet for our AP(s).

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In this screenshot you can see he is more level with the AP(s) and provides a slightly nicer passing channel (he is the player next to the ref).

However, I did not like his movement as it was the same as the AP's at times. In this screenshot you can see they are practically on top of each other and end up running in the same line toward the box.

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Seeing this I decided to keep the CM as a support role, but add a specific instruction to "Hold position". I haven't noticed this since.

Overall a good result versus a much better team who we should have lost to.

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@imabearlol, very educational input.

Would it be a big difference if we replace Poacher and DLF. I think the latter brings more goals while poacher is tearing opponents defense and creating space.

Another question about changing AP(S) to Trequartista/Enganche and one strike to support role or drop him to second AMC slot. May I receive a lot of mistakes in tactic building or improve creativity?

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You could switch it around sure. The reason I play this way is because my poacher is actually a winger and is right footed. I also like the idea of having a BBM linking up with a DLF, but you could also argue there is more space for the BBM to run into if the poacher is ahead of him. Your way might even work better as the CWB(a) can cross to the far post for the poacher which is harder to defend against.

I personally feel the Enganche/Treq are too attacking for that role, but it may be worth a try. If you wanted to you could even try those two roles together in the AM slot (if you wanted to do 2xAM and 1xST), but I would lose the DLP in that case and use the 3 CMs as pure ball winners to recycle possession. That's the theory at least but whether it actually works you would have to test.

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Yeah definitely, if I wanted to emulate that system then I would definitely try the BWM role. Mine is slightly different since I wanted to use an attacking fullback on that side I needed some stable cover rather than someone who could potentially roam from that position. I was using the Milan tactic as a base then adapting it according to my own players.

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Yeah definitely, if I wanted to emulate that system then I would definitely try the BWM role. Mine is slightly different since I wanted to use an attacking fullback on that side I needed some stable cover rather than someone who could potentially roam from that position. I was using the Milan tactic as a base then adapting it according to my own players.

Sounds fair enough.

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iamabearlol looks like nice tactic, It's interesting to see how you get on, like with my tactic, we had a lot of mixed results, but still we managed to win the title on the last day, we also had a lot of strikers, midfielders, which meant for league 1 at least play 4312 narrow, So this season in championship, we will play with wingers, although league 1 is not so bad not many teams play with lots of wide players mostly narrow, but in the championship, you'll get a lot of wide tatics like 433 or others, but I will also stick with 4312 as my other backup tactic, are you gonna stick with this long term or till you get to the higher leagues witch you will change tactic? also your fullback will need high stamina, would also benefit from being a bit pacey, also in my first season I went over my wage budget and completely forgot that we had a lot of loan midfield players and struggled in January because 2 or 3 of them went back to their club, and we had a few injuries, when we tried to get a player on loan the other club was like we want him to play with higher quality players or the players that we had on loan, that had gone back, we tried to bring back but they rejected, in the end I manage to get 1 player, he fit into our style of play verygood, so for my new season we have decided to play 433 with either a dm or cam, I am undecided but our 2 wide players we have brought in play dr, wbr, mr, wr, and same on the left so they fits perfect for both my tactics.

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I have almost exclusively used a 4-3-1-2 Narrow for the last couple of versions of FM. I haven't bought FM16 yet, so I don't know what tactical things have changed, but the one thing I would note is that the most important roles in this formation by far are the wings backs, as they provide almost all of the width and "out balls" when things get cluttered in the middle. And I have found that you need a "Flexible" team shape more often than not to give them the vertical range they need to effectively support attacks and aggressively overlap when appropriate. "Fluid" tends to make them too vertically compact.

I'd go so far as to say that if you don't have extremely competent two-way wing backs, the formation is an uphill climb. You can use a wide range of specialist/generalist roles for the four midfield roles (and I tinker with them a lot depending on what I need in a given game and who's available), but the wing backs need to be able to do just about everything, and have the mental attributes to make the right decisions.

Other than that I can't help you, because my front trio have always been set up very differently and I tend to be play kind of a high-press Counter. What I would say is it has always taken me a long time to tweak the roles so that every player is using the best available space in transition and nobody is getting in anyone else's way.

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Ok. well it seems that I have sorted it out a bit. so I should be alright. but I have started a brand new save. I will come back to this save at some point in the next few days, the roles have changes that you see from the first post.

Here they are:

GK-Defend

RB-WB-Support - CB-Defend - CB-Defend - LB-WB-Attack

CMR-Support - CM-Deep Lying Playmaker - CML-Attack

CAM-Trequartista

STCR- Deep Lying Forward Support - STCL-Advanced Forward Attack

Although we did get a lot of mixed results, like I have said previously. But still was a good tactic for the league 1 or lower leagues, I guess not sure if it is going to be any good for championship or premierleague, hence why I have bought some wingers for another tactical option, although they fit perfect for my orignal tactic.

thanks very much for the help Shake Appeal.

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