Is the tactics system now too complicated?

So with FM16 just around the corner I decided to bring up an issue I've had the past couple of years. Tactics!

This year in particular has has been the least invested I've ever been on FM since i got hooked with CM4 (got intoduced to CM99/00 just before it got released) i completed a total of 4 seasons. Compare that to FM07/08 where over multiple saves I'd be closer to 200 seasons on each.

Part of that is my end, i have less time to invest in the game than i used to. However, that doesn't explain why I've played more time on FIFA in the last 2/3 years than FM, and its not as if FIFA strikes out as that complete a game anymore either. So i sat down and had a think, why am i no longer enjoying FM as much. And it all boils down to the tactics systems. I no longer understand how to get my team to play a system and a style i want them too. The only system I've been able to get to work is a 442 narrow diamond formation, which while won me games, is dire to watch and nothing like my style I'd like to play. Fans berate you because any time you get a decent winger or move clubs you have to sell them on because really they don't fit the formation. I prefer one striker formations, but I can't get any to work anymore.

So what I've found recently is going back to classics, CM4, FM07 (i appear to have lost my 08 disk so would also have played that) and even FM11. I've found the saves I've played on these all enjoyable, but just missing some of the features of the new games.

So this is me begging, SI please make the tactics just that bit simpler, i don't want the game to be easy but I'm sure there's many more like me who just don't have the time to invest learning new more complicated tactical system every single year. I just want to be able to tell my team this is what i want, and they do it. If they lose doing that so be it.

In recent years, and with greater resources available to SI, they have strived to create an even more realistic simulation game. With this comes the complexity of tactics and all of the adjustments that reflect real life tactics. To begin with it was quite obviously jarring, in more recent editions though SI have been striving to simplify tactics in terms of basics (ie tactics wizard etc) and in the two, have simplified it even more. That being said, the complexity is till there if people want it and everything can be tweaked if you need/want too.

This isn't necessary as such though, you can build a simple basic formation and tactic in a matter of minutes which can do just fine. The only thing it asks for, is a basic understanding of football tbh, in other words, the need for balance, for not having gaping holes in defence, for understanding that to pass the ball around needs players in the correct positions open for a pass etc..

I for one think that a simulation striving for reality needs all this.

OP, are you saying the old slider system was simpler than the football terminology one we have now?

Not sure if OP has seen FM16's system.. pretty much as intuitive as you could possibly get.

Its far simpler this year than ever.

Just a pick a formation you like, player roles that make sense, your preferred style of play (team instructions) and off you go.

You can download tactics from this website or from FM Base, makes the game a lot simpler for me.

FM16s system is lovely. Even my bro saw me playing it and was like "dude, that's well better!".

It's been polished up and it works well .

i haven't seen 16 yet to be fair, was giving comment on 15.

Hunt3r not exactly, but i feel its got overly complicated now. Knowing what every single role does in relation to how that effects your style you wish to play is mind boggling though.

Welshace solid post

[video=youtube_share;w4F0lUI258g]

Not ideal, but workthespace's video shows the new system off.

Thanks for that welshace, having a watch at the moment the instructions looks much friendlier.

FM16 is a lot more intuitive now. I would kind of agree with you about previous versions - I never quite got into FM14 and FM15, mostly because of not being that good at the tactics side of things. I would put players out in a system that I thought would be alright, and if it was, great. If it wasn't, then I struggled to change much.

With FM16, I feel like it's easier to set people out the way I want them to play, and I'm getting pretty realistic and decent football from it. I don't think much has actually changed beneath the hood, but the way you visualise instructions now make it easier to understand what you're telling them to do.

So the original question posed - I don't think it was ever too complicated, just probably too opaque. It's now documented far better in front of the users eyes, which I suppose breeds simplicity.

Personally I think the tactics system was ruined by the removal of sliders. The current system is far too arbitrary and the terminology misleading and unhelpful. At least with sliders I knew what to expect when I bumped creative freedom up a couple of notches. With the current system it just feels like wild stabs in the dark trying to actually get the players to do what you want them to do. So much of it is contradictory and conflicting.

I agree, I think this year they have taken some really positive steps to ensure the UI helps the player understand what the tactical instructions do. It's by no means perfect but it's far better than previous versions.

The area I believe the game is still lacking in is feedback systems that give the player an insight into the impact of their tactical decisions. I think i'd be correct in assuming that a large portion of players struggle to "see" mistakes in their setup when watching the game. I know I do at times. Personally I don't think the assistant's feedback during the match is all that great and doesn't go far enough.

Perhaps having certain visual overlays when viewing the match back during analysis could help. For example the game could show some kind of "space" indicator that lets you see how much space each player has. This might help you realise that when defending you are frequently leaving too many gaps open that the opposition are able to exploit.

Another thing i'd love would be the ability to assess your tactics within the match engine in a training environment. So you could freely play the game in training mode, making tactical changes to your own tactic as well as changes to the opposition. I could test my tactic against any formation, mentality etc. and begin to get an understanding of its problem areas without having to worry about getting a bad result.

Personally I think the tactics system was ruined by the removal of sliders. The current system is far too arbitrary and the terminology misleading and unhelpful. At least with sliders I knew what to expect when I bumped creative freedom up a couple of notches. With the current system it just feels like wild stabs in the dark trying to actually get the players to do what you want them to do. So much of it is contradictory and conflicting.

I understand your point but for me, the sliders allowed a degree of specificity that isn't achievable in real football and so I was very happy to see them replaced by roles.

I just felt the ability to tune something up a couple of notches was not an accurate reflection of how football is played because it's just too precise.

Thanks for replies, video made me feel much happier about investing in fm16 next payday. Makes alot more sense and alot of the stuff i wasn't sure like deeper defence or much deeper etc. like obviously know what the difference is but the effect it had in match wasn't always clear.

I think peopel just think the tactics system is overly complicated.

I had a EUREKA moment after reading some WWFAN stuff about keeping it simple. I now pick a formation, use largely standard roles (ie CMa CMd , Wingers etc) and a base mentality and then as time goes on i'll tweak to specialist roles if I want one or if I sign a player that would be especially good at it.

Before I was all about too many roles and 12 shouts and smashing my monitor because nothing ******* worked.

Edit : Personally I love the new shouts screen, it's definitely intuitive and gives a nice visual representation of what it is you're actually asking your team to do.

Personally I think the tactics system was ruined by the removal of sliders. The current system is far too arbitrary and the terminology misleading and unhelpful. At least with sliders I knew what to expect when I bumped creative freedom up a couple of notches. With the current system it just feels like wild stabs in the dark trying to actually get the players to do what you want them to do. So much of it is contradictory and conflicting.

+1 from me. Last FM I played was FM 12 and I thoroughly enjoyed it, mainly for the sliders if I can be honest.

That "specificity" is exactly why I love the sliders. I like complete control and not "loose" definitions of roles and duties. One tactic, 30+ seasons in with minor adjustments while playing matches. Call it simplistic or mundane, but it was a pleasure to know exactly what would happen after a few notches up or down of the relative slider.

Maybe I'm outgrowing the series, not sure.

The problem with that was realism.. it's a simulation and we're striving for a realistic approach to tactics as they might be found irl..

Frankly, as much as prodding one notch up on mentality was easy to use, it had no bearing at all to real football.

The funny thing is, there is nothing you can do with the sliders that you can't do with the new approach, it's just understanding the terms and using football knowledge to implement them.

From a personal point of view i would say that its just a case of getting used to the new layout and such,maybe that more difficult just as we have been used to pervious ones more often.

Another thing i'd love would be the ability to assess your tactics within the match engine in a training environment. So you could freely play the game in training mode, making tactical changes to your own tactic as well as changes to the opposition. I could test my tactic against any formation, mentality etc. and begin to get an understanding of its problem areas without having to worry about getting a bad result.

this is a great idea, I hope SI wrote this down!

Yeah i second that!

I have stayed with FM13 since it released until now.

While i do miss the sliders in some instances, i really like how simple it is now, especially with the visual representations on what some of the instructions do.

BUT i really dont like the boxes instead of the shirts on the tactics screen. They dont fit imo, and i dont see a need for the change as the same info is shown in previous version on and around the shirts.

One of the 1st things I was taught when coaching by a professional was that 99% of the time, a footballer will completely ignore everything you've have said and will go out there and play like he usually does. (Automatic mode).

Also if you feed him too much information the last thing you tell him is all he'll remember.

The only question about tactics is "Would a manager normally be able to say that to a players(s)"?

"I want you defenders to hold a line 14/20." is NOT something he would say. Hence all sliders had to go.

Of course it is too complicated.

Nowhere does the game tell things like 'your formation is your defensive shape' or what each mentality actually means in terms of width, passing patterns, pressing, defensive line etc. And in fact the mentalities often represent styles completely divorced from their description (eg control being aggressive rather than possession based football). The concept of team shape is still largely impenetrable to people who don't frequent these boards.

I've basically learnt how to navigate the tactics creator by spending many hours reading this forum.

I loved the introduction of player roles. That alone made the tactical side of the game much more appealing. I enjoy watching real-life games and thinking which roles each player could fill. It feels more authentic than sliders ever did. I also think it is easier to select a player role than to tinker with each instruction one by one.

Of course it is too complicated.

Nowhere does the game tell things like 'your formation is your defensive shape' or what each mentality actually means in terms of width, passing patterns, pressing, defensive line etc. And in fact the mentalities often represent styles completely divorced from their description (eg control being aggressive rather than possession based football). The concept of team shape is still largely impenetrable to people who don't frequent these boards.

I've basically learnt how to navigate the tactics creator by spending many hours reading this forum.

Totally agree with this. It's not that the tactics are overly complicated. It's more that SI don't adequately describe what all these buttons actually do.

Though I credit FM16 for making great strides in this area over last year. I think it's vastly improved.

It's not that complicated just different and gives you a bit more diversity tactic wise. I like the fact that once you've picked a tactic and tweaked it with the intructions, the player instructions are pretty much done also, maybe adding one or two if needed, so it's basically a plug and play tactic ystem

I think the tactics are is much improved and a lot easier to understand than previous versions of FM.

Of course it is too complicated.

Nowhere does the game tell things like 'your formation is your defensive shape' or what each mentality actually means in terms of width, passing patterns, pressing, defensive line etc. And in fact the mentalities often represent styles completely divorced from their description (eg control being aggressive rather than possession based football). The concept of team shape is still largely impenetrable to people who don't frequent these boards.

I've basically learnt how to navigate the tactics creator by spending many hours reading this forum.

The new graphical representations on the instructions screen display this now.

If you have the team instructions open and change mentality etc you get a visual indication of how high your D line will be our what kind of passing it uses for example

It's a huge improvement.

I'll be interested to see how people get on with 16 and may buy it come February/March time but certainly since the TC came out and definitely in FM15 yep it got far too complicated IMO.

The argument that if you have basic football knowledge you will be fine I don't really buy into to an extent. I managed and coached at a pretty decent level for years with a fair bit of success but putting my ideas into FM I find very difficult indeed. It's a year since FM15 came out and I still don't know if flexible, fluid or structured is right for my tactic or why my DLF S won't score goals and part of the problem in my opinion is that every little thing seems to have a knock on effect to something else. With the millions of variables a tactic can have I think it's as much luck than judgement if you have any real success and I think rather than basic football knowledge it's knowledge of how the ME works that is a benefit. It would certainly be an interesting survey to see how many FM Managers would play their FM tactic in a real life game or just use something in FM a bit more ME friendly so to speak.

So will certainly be interested to see how tactics are rated this time around.

I'll be interested to see how people get on with 16 and may buy it come February/March time but certainly since the TC came out and definitely in FM15 yep it got far too complicated IMO.

The argument that if you have basic football knowledge you will be fine I don't really buy into to an extent. I managed and coached at a pretty decent level for years with a fair bit of success but putting my ideas into FM I find very difficult indeed. It's a year since FM15 came out and I still don't know if flexible, fluid or structured is right for my tactic or why my DLF S won't score goals and part of the problem in my opinion is that every little thing seems to have a knock on effect to something else. With the millions of variables a tactic can have I think it's as much luck than judgement if you have any real success and I think rather than basic football knowledge it's knowledge of how the ME works that is a benefit. It would certainly be an interesting survey to see how many FM Managers would play their FM tactic in a real life game or just use something in FM a bit more ME friendly so to speak.

So will certainly be interested to see how tactics are rated this time around.

I certainly would on FM16, for years I've been trying to get Arsenal to play the Arsenal way, and while I've racked up trophies, tactically it's always felt a little off.

But this year, I've been able to use the player roles (re-read the instructions a few times during set up) and the tactical instructions (which are much more user friendly and intuitive this year) to make a tactic that finally feels like Arsenal.

The problem with that was realism.. it's a simulation and we're striving for a realistic approach to tactics as they might be found irl..

Frankly, as much as prodding one notch up on mentality was easy to use, it had no bearing at all to real football.

The funny thing is, there is nothing you can do with the sliders that you can't do with the new approach, it's just understanding the terms and using football knowledge to implement them.

I am sorry but how are player roles more realistic? I doubt a coach tells a player to play the "Raumdeuter" role.

I agree about instructions instead of sliders though, but why lock them down into roles ? Why not just keep the roles as a template, but let me adjust the instructions freely?

I am sorry but how are player roles more realistic? I doubt a coach tells a player to play the "Raumdeuter" role.

I see this silly reasoning often. They don't. There's an entire role description that needs to be remembered.

There's also PIs to take into account to help.

I see this silly reasoning often. They don't. There's an entire role description that needs to be remembered.

There's also PIs to take into account to help.

Even with the description , why is it not possible to assign player instructions freely?

For example I want my central defender to run forward and support the midfield in attack, why cant I just instruct him to do that ? Instead I need to play him as a ball playing defender which also has more expansive passing.

For example I want my central defender to run forward and support the midfield in attack, why cant I just instuct him to do that ? Instead I need to play him as a ball playing defender which also has more expansive passing.

Ball Playing defenders don't really do that either

That particular instruction has been suggested before though and it's probably a valid request. Others are set roles. You can't change instructions that will see the identity of that role being lost.

Ball Playing defenders don't really do that either

That particular instruction has been suggested before though and it's probably a valid request. Others are set roles. You can't change instructions that will see the identity of that role being lost.

As a ball playing defender I can at least set him to dribble often.

Why are the roles set? Why are they not more like a template , while still let me set instructions freely and create my own roles and tactical templates?

Why are the roles set? Why are they not more like a template , while still let me set instructions freely and create my own roles and tactical templates?

This is something that I and others have requested in the past, and I hope that we will see in the future. For now though, we have the roles and the customization of the roles remains somewhat limited, and that is just how it is.

As a ball playing defender I can at least set him to dribble often.

Why are the roles set? Why are they not more like a template , while still let me set instructions freely and create my own roles and tactical templates?

Is this not what the "basic" roles do (FB, CM, AM, WM).

You can make these roles pretty much anything with PI's...

EDIT: Certain hardcoded exceptions aside (Halfback etc).

This is something that I and others have requested in the past, and I hope that we will see in the future. For now though, we have the roles and the customization of the roles remains somewhat limited, and that is just how it is.

Ok thanks, it seems like the obvious thing to do, if you dont want to tinker with details you don't have to , but if you want you can.

Is this not what the "basic" roles do (FB, CM, AM, WM).

You can make these roles pretty much anything with PI's...

EDIT: Certain hardcoded exceptions aside (Halfback etc).

A lot of instructions are limited to certain roles.

A lot of instructions are limited to certain roles.

You'll find that specialised roles have little freedom. You more general roles will have far more PI tweaking available to you.

The thing is, you give people total freedom to do what they want with player instructions, and you'll get thousands of posts moaning that the game is broken because the players aren't following instructions, normally due to those instructions being a total mess of contradictions. I like the way they have it now. You pick a defined role for a player, then certain instructions are locked in, with minimal scope to adjust it. As HUNT3R says, generic roles give you more room to manoeuvre. It's clean, it's intuitive, and it works. It's now easier to build a more balanced starting XI whilst still giving you the freedom to try different roles and formations.

I don't like the new tactic setup. The FM15 one seemed intuitive. This one seems to be a lot of information at once and disjointed.

I don't like the new tactic setup. The FM15 one seemed intuitive. This one seems to be a lot of information at once and disjointed.

It's EXACTLY the same tactic sbut the instructions use images instead of words.

I'm baffled anyone can be confused by say seeing a visual representation of where their D line will be vs choosing "push higher up". Now when you select "psuh higher up" you see where your D line will be.

The same with choosing a mentality, with the new instructions screen when you change mentality the instructions screen changes , so you can see *how* going attacking will change you passing and d line etc.

But if you understood 15 then it should be easier to understand 16, because all that has changed is the user is given a more visual cue to what's going on

You'll find that specialised roles have little freedom. You more general roles will have far more PI tweaking available to you.

What would be a general role for the wing for example? Only specialised roles available .

Winger, AP, Wide targetman, Inside Forward, Raumdeuter.

All of them have instructions I cannot change.

The thing is, you give people total freedom to do what they want with player instructions, and you'll get thousands of posts moaning that the game is broken because the players aren't following instructions, normally due to those instructions being a total mess of contradictions. I like the way they have it now. You pick a defined role for a player, then certain instructions are locked in, with minimal scope to adjust it. As HUNT3R says, generic roles give you more room to manoeuvre. It's clean, it's intuitive, and it works. It's now easier to build a more balanced starting XI whilst still giving you the freedom to try different roles and formations.

I am sorry but this is not a reason at all.

I said keep the roles as a template, for people who dont want to think too much about it , but let people like me who want much more control be able to do it by unlocking the instructions.

What would be a general role for the wing for example? Only specialised roles available .

Winger, AP, Wide targetman, Inside Forward, Raumdeuter.

All of them have instructions I cannot change.

You may have a case for that position and it has been brought up elsewhere as well.

What are you trying to achieve with that position that's not possible right now?

You may have a case for that position and it has been brought up elsewhere as well.

What are you trying to achieve with that position that's not possible right now?

I was just answering to your suggestion that the more general roles have more instructions, or was it meant for the future?

I was just answering to your suggestion that the more general roles have more instructions, or was it meant for the future?

No, the general roles have more freedom to adjust PIs right now in FM16 (and had in FM15 too). There isn't a general role at AML/AMR though. I was just curious about what you found limiting for that position.

No, the general roles have more freedom to adjust PIs right now in FM16 (and had in FM15 too). There isn't a general role at AML/AMR though. I was just curious about what you found limiting for that position.

Inside forward with less risky passing for example

It was just a quick example, as there are no real general roles except central midfield, central defender seems general , but cannot dribble more .