4-1-2-2-1 with FC Bayern - possession and making Müller work

Generic and predictable title, I know. Apologies in advance for TL;DR etc.

Disclaimer first: I really dislike tiki-taka or Peps football IRL. I am more of a direct style football fan, and this is my preferred style in FM as well. It's been ages since I last tried a possession based style, I obviously need some input here.

Right, so the premise is this. I've taken over FCB at a time where Ribery, Robben, Martinez and Alonso are all gone. They splashed €40m on Süle just before I took over, I have a transfer budget of €20m left. Not much to maneuver with. The board demands possession football before all else. This is where I find it tough.

A look at the squad:

In my mind, a team with these qualities across the board should be able to average on 60-63% possession throughout the season. It doesn't sound like a lot when you know Pep can have 80% possession against Augsburg IRL. But this is not RL. We should also be able to win the BL by a fair margin. We should have a lot of CCC each match, and a lot of goals coming from open play.

The goals, or wishes I have is the following:

Adhere to the boards wishes and play a passing style. I also would like to get the best out of my two wide players, Götze and Müller. As a result of playing a poss based style, I'd like us to be defensively sound and go on to win major trophies.

Having a look at what I have to work with, and my limited resources, I quickly landed on a 4-1-2-2-1 with the goal to make the most of what I have.

The trio upfront have the following PIs:

* Close Down Much More

* Shoot less often (except for the RD)

Rest of team: Shoot less foten

The first 6 matches I watched in full mode. There was a tweeking period to getting the shape right. A recurring theme I noticed was the lack of positive involvement I have from both Götze and Müller. Götze will frequently get the ball out wide, a little deeper, but will rarely manage to produce anything with it. He often gets closed down very early, or he'll attempt to go inwards and gets tackled.

As for the raumdeuter, his scoring chances are often from an acute angle, so that it'll be easy for the GK to make a save. I can imagine that this is due to the movement of his teammates in attack?

Also, our possession isn't that great. We are on about 60% at home and 55% away.

Any suggestions on how to improve this?

Here is an example of a match against S04 away:

Note the CCC and possession. Unacceptable for our side. I just played a CL match against Arsenal at Allianz now. We won 3-1, but were on the ropes for 70 minutes. We got a goal from a corner and then killed it off with 5 mins remaining. It should have been more comfy.

Looking at this - it kinda summarizes my issues. Complete domination, except for CCCs created. The front 3 are not working together as a unit.

You have 'Control' which has a higher tempo and is wider and you have flexible which means that the mentalities are more spread out.

From my guess, they are playing to far apart and can't link up.

1. Try reducing the tempo so that they aren't rushing passes?

2. Try 'play narrower' so that the two wide boys are closer to Lewandowski?

Just a couple of thoughts

legskeattch,

Playing narrower certainly helped on getting the raumdeuter more involved.

Heatmap from pre narrow, against S04:

Post narrow, against Hertha:

Despite reducing the tempo (I thought "Regain Possession would lower it sufficiently) the best possession percentage we can hope for is 65%. I have seen it all the way down to 52%, but that was away against Hoffenheim, who is having a very good season.

Work Ball Into Box should help with possession and creating better chances. Against better defences I will use Higher Tempo to have higher possession, but this will usually lead to fewer CCCs. Most of the time Lower Tempo should work to create better shots.

One thing to keep in mind is that Complete Wingbacks will cross the ball quite often. This should lead to some good chances, but is not good for possession. Wingback (Support) is better for possession. You can even add Cross Less Often as a PI, but this can lead to a stagnant offense.

@donnybrook,

Yes, Work Ball into Box has helped on possession and creation. Thank you for that.

I have an aging Mandzukic upfront from time to time, I play him as a TM(s), so I switch between wingbacks and complete wingbacks.

All in all I'm pleased with how things are going, we are crushing everything except for the cup finals. Have you guys noticed this little "nugget", to add suspense I guess.

Let me show you some screens:

German Cup Final against Hertha:

CL Final (this I won after extra time, but still):

World Club Cup Final:

These results only happen in cup finals for me so far. I lose games in the league, but then it's more normal losses, i.e. not creating CCCs and getting goals against from set pieces and counters. Anyway, rant over. It's clearly something that's implemented to keep players playing the game I guess.

Can you check something for me? Do you find that when your False 9 gets on the ball, all he seems to do is wallop it from 20+ yards out?

I've been mucking around with the same 4-3-3, trying to jiggle roles around in pre-season, just trying to learn some things. The results I'm getting are dire, I've lost 3-4 to Colorado (As Man Utd...) and 0-1 to Buriram Warriors. In the Colorado game I had 50% possession, in the Warriors game 70% possession. In both games chances were of poor quality, mostly I saw the False 9 collect the ball, get crowded out and/or shoot from distance. If the wide players got it, they were always on the edge of the box and splatting the ball over the bar doing nothing with it (again).

Basically, have a look at the front line, see if they're hanging back on the edge of the box and doing nothing with the ball. I think that is the most likely area that is causing you to have a high shot chance and nothing else, if only because they won't recycle possession and will just look to smash it. - If this is the case, then we need to look at how to provide more options to get them to recycle the possession.

This is with options around them, wing backs are free on their flanks, the centre midfields are tenatively getting into positions. When I tried a BWM/RP combination the RP was going missing and the BWM was hoofing it as he struggled to cope with the passing length/failed to see options. My current set up is a DLP and AP and they both aren't being particularly mobile either.

I think the issue a lot of people have with this formation is that they want an STC to drop deep, which then means the burden of scoring goals is likely transferred to the AMLR.. Most people probably try to keep things balanced (because of reading guides now, and etc.) So maybe they end up with something like this: W-S, DLF-S, IF-A But in reality, who is going to score the goals? Especially if there isn't much movement going forward from the middle (think like a CM-A or something).

The 4-1-2-2-1 is a pretty defensive formation if you just think about where the players are going to be on the pitch for their defensive shape. Granted the front 3 can work well to close down and all that, but the striker can become easily isolated.

I think the best way to make this formation work wonders is with EITHER of the following solutions:

1. You play a "traditional" style where a big striker is supported by fast wingers. So maybe something like W-S, AF-A, W-A and of course you'll be relying on those quick balls into the box / crosses.

2. You play a more "modern" style where the striker acts as a false 9 (messi, etc.) and drops deep into attacking midfield, while 2 wide forwards cut inside from the wing (IF-A, RMD-A) to score the goals.

Other than that, I don't know how else you could set up a 4-1-2-2-1 to be truly effective at scoring goals. Obviously you can tweak the roles/duties, but the principles are probably going to need to be revolved around points 1 and 2 above. The striker either stays high up, or he doesn't. And that directly affects how his wide partners will need to play.

1. You play a "traditional" style where a big striker is supported by fast wingers. So maybe something like W-S, AF-A, W-A and of course you'll be relying on those quick balls into the box / crosses.

2. You play a more "modern" style where the striker acts as a false 9 (messi, etc.) and drops deep into attacking midfield, while 2 wide forwards cut inside from the wing (IF-A, RMD-A) to score the goals.

Other than that, I don't know how else you could set up a 4-1-2-2-1 to be truly effective at scoring goals. Obviously you can tweak the roles/duties, but the principles are probably going to need to be revolved around points 1 and 2 above. The striker either stays high up, or he doesn't. And that directly affects how his wide partners will need to play.

there are a fair few other options.

- IF on one side, striker pushing up in the middle with a playmaker on the other side for an offense that feed through balls to the two guys running into the box

- changing the playmaker to a winger (preferably a support one) to whip in more crosses if your forward and/or IF are good at getting to the end of those.

it all depends on how the rest of you team is set up. if you have both full backs aggressively pushing forward, then there is no point to play a winger on either side really. though it can work if you want to overload a full back or wide midfielder.

if you push your central midfielders up then your wide men more likely need to provide more width, especially since you're more likely to have at least one of your full backs on a more cautious role unless you're really not worried about being hit on the counter.

Drop "retain possesion". Firstly, it is not necessary in order to acheive a possesion style of football, and secondly it will blunt your attacking options as that TI discourages forward runs and through-balls. It is basically a TI that is best for when you have scored enough goals and just want to see the match safely out. My guess is that that "lack of involvement" up front can largely be pin-pointed to that TI. Your "look for overlap" TI takes care of the rest; you have basically told your wide men to try very little, and basically wait for the fullbacks to come up so that they can take care of the attacking. Or pass the balls sideways. Your top class wide men are severly blunted. And again; not a TI that is necessary in order to get a sensible attacking contribution from your fullbacks. Your use of TI's have set your team up to play a very one-dimensional (and not terribly effective) type of football. My regular tactic is a Control or Attacking, Very Fluid affair with 3 TI's; "work ball", "close more" and "push higher", and I get the most possesion in the vast majority of my matches. The only exceptions are when playing away to equally good teams that play with similar tactics. And I attack using all available options and opportunities (except excessive long shots; "work ball" takes care of that). My board wants a possession and attacking style of football, and they get what they want; never had any complaints. Not that I set up my tactics to please the board, mind you. But I'm happy that they approve of my style of football.

Tbh 4-1-2-2-1 DM Wide is still far from expectation. We want to play with a high defensive line, but that makes the F9 or whathever drop deeper role u deploy being too far ahead n entering opposition's box too early. The F9 role itself has long shot problem n it is quite aggresive role for someone expected to connect with the midfield strata (dribbling the ball quite oftenly, alone, agaisnt 2-3)

IF(A) is also take a liking to run with ball immediately after receive the ball. Many times I lost possession because of this. Wait for overlap in a very fluid team shape reduce their mentality makes the lone striker abit isolated ahead especially if no CM offering forward run. In a flexible team shape, they oftenly ignore wait for overlap TI since they basically get the highest mentality setting. N to make it worse most ppl wants to put 2 playmakers on CMs slot

Since FM15 is about to end I decided to forcefully change some codes inside the tactic tabel. I've successfully combine F9 with AP(S), RMD with Poacher, IF(A) with TM(A). Also gave DLP, BPD, and Roaming Playmaker an attack duty, n regista with a defend duty

For what I've seen, all of the works smoothly. The F9 now is treated as a playmaker by his teammates, n he drops deep deeper than usual F9. Both playmakers at CM strata also works like what they used to be but they offer penetration far better via off the ball movement. The surprise is the BPD(A). He act just like a normal defender center at defense, but when my team is in possession he start to run forward to offer more passing option. If we lost possession he immediately goes back to his partnership with the other DC. I'm srsly suggest SI to give DC more fluid movement off the ball. I'll watch my experiment abit longer then I'll post some results

Tbh 4-1-2-2-1 DM Wide is still far from expectation. We want to play with a high defensive line, but that makes the F9 or whathever drop deeper role u deploy being too far ahead n entering opposition's box too early. The F9 role itself has long shot problem n it is quite aggresive role for someone expected to connect with the midfield strata (dribbling the ball quite oftenly, alone, agaisnt 2-3)

IF(A) is also take a liking to run with ball immediately after receive the ball. Many times I lost possession because of this. Wait for overlap in a very fluid team shape reduce their mentality makes the lone striker abit isolated ahead especially if no CM offering forward run. In a flexible team shape, they oftenly ignore wait for overlap TI since they basically get the highest mentality setting. N to make it worse most ppl wants to put 2 playmakers on CMs slot

Since FM15 is about to end I decided to forcefully change some codes inside the tactic tabel. I've successfully combine F9 with AP(S), RMD with Poacher, IF(A) with TM(A). Also gave DLP, BPD, and Roaming Playmaker an attack duty, n regista with a defend duty

For what I've seen, all of the works smoothly. The F9 now is treated as a playmaker by his teammates, n he drops deep deeper than usual F9. Both playmakers at CM strata also works like what they used to be but they offer penetration far better via off the ball movement. The surprise is the BPD(A). He act just like a normal defender center at defense, but when my team is in possession he start to run forward to offer more passing option. If we lost possession he immediately goes back to his partnership with the other DC. I'm srsly suggest SI to give DC more fluid movement off the ball. I'll watch my experiment abit longer then I'll post some results

Wait, what? Isn't changing the code of the game against the EULA? O_O Or do you mean coding via player instructions?

Wait, what? Isn't changing the code of the game against the EULA? O_O Or do you mean coding via player instructions?

it is against the EULA i think. but i only keep it for myself. been hacking single player games since long ago, but I have no desire to share since im cheating for the sake of altering the code itself not to make the game easier to be played with (sometimes i increase the difficulty). so a cheating program like FMRTE is a shame thing for me

what i want to achieve is to alter some roles to play like what i want them to play. not to make my team to always win. luckily the edited roles cant be saved in PKM with normal saving tactic method makes me too lazy to share even to my brother.

so far the most interesting thing i've found is about recreating messi's false 9 role. we know he was dropping far deeper than other "false 9" (like suarez at liverpool) yet still the furthest player in overall heat map. after tweaking many times, Im using Halfback role in STC position, give it a "normal support duty" (some roles have special support duty, ie: BBM, AP-S, CF-S), combined with roaming playmaker's default instructions. The result is quite good. almost like how messi plays under guardiola. but it still drop too deep sometimes (as deep as my DM-D) but he is still willing to penetrate opposition box. he drops deep, waiting some teammates to penetrate ahead of him then he use his dribbling n passing abilities from there. n still scoring but not so many coz he isnt messi afterall

this is my current formation

how the IF(S) is being tweaked. Dribble more, more risky passes, get further forward, move into channels, sit narrower, and roam from position are actived by default

it is against the EULA i think. but i only keep it for myself. been hacking single player games since long ago, but I have no desire to share since im cheating for the sake of altering the code itself not to make the game easier to be played with (sometimes i increase the difficulty). so a cheating program like FMRTE is a shame thing for me

what i want to achieve is to alter some roles to play like what i want them to play. not to make my team to always win. luckily the edited roles cant be saved in PKM with normal saving tactic method makes me too lazy to share even to my brother.

so far the most interesting thing i've found is about recreating messi's false 9 role. we know he was dropping far deeper than other "false 9" (like suarez at liverpool) yet still the furthest player in overall heat map. after tweaking many times, Im using Halfback role in STC position, give it a "normal support duty" (some roles have special support duty, ie: BBM, AP-S, CF-S), combined with roaming playmaker's default instructions. The result is quite good. almost like how messi plays under guardiola. but it still drop too deep sometimes (as deep as my DM-D) but he is still willing to penetrate opposition box. he drops deep, waiting some teammates to penetrate ahead of him then he use his dribbling n passing abilities from there. n still scoring but not so many coz he isnt messi afterall

this is my current formation

how the IF(S) is being tweaked. Dribble more, more risky passes, get further forward, move into channels, sit narrower, and roam from position are actived by default

Putting the whole EULA thing aside, which I honestly don't care about, it would be pretty nice if SI or somebody from SI were paying attention to this.

I think the reason for him to do this is completely genuine and would help plenty of players that cannot do the same. Not that somebody wants to play with a HB as striker, but his F9 is better (in theory) than ours. I use this formation a lot and honestly my F9 is either a Treq or a DLF-s, not a F9.

First of all, it would be nice to have the roles working as they should, which I don't see as too much of a problem on FM15 (apart from the F9 and the roles that I never use, like HB, TM, LFB, etc), but the most important here would be for us to be able to tweak the role in a better and more straight forward way, which is something that I think can be improved and apparently won't be on FM16. But I may be wrong.

So, to refer back to the OP for a second, we have now got to the stage in this thread where the way to make Muller work in a Bayern-esque tactic is to hack the game?

I can't find an emoji that adequately resembles the word "ridiculous".

Oh, and please use the word "and".

Putting the whole EULA thing aside, which I honestly don't care about, it would be pretty nice if SI or somebody from SI were paying attention to this.

I think the reason for him to do this is completely genuine and would help plenty of players that cannot do the same. Not that somebody wants to play with a HB as striker, but his F9 is better (in theory) than ours. I use this formation a lot and honestly my F9 is either a Treq or a DLF-s, not a F9.

First of all, it would be nice to have the roles working as they should, which I don't see as too much of a problem on FM15 (apart from the F9 and the roles that I never use, like HB, TM, LFB, etc), but the most important here would be for us to be able to tweak the role in a better and more straight forward way, which is something that I think can be improved and apparently won't be on FM16. But I may be wrong.

I don't think that request will be granted. In SI view, tweaking roles is only about player specific instruction

There is a reason why I decided to use HB instead of, let's say DLP(s). I tried using T(S), T(D), AP(S), CM(S), RGA(S), DLP(S), even FB(S) at STC slot but none of them can drop as deep as messi used to do back then. it feels like there is an invisible line separating the STC with midfield strata (Defense duty is out of question since It is greatly discouraging player to do something risky) . The reason is because they arent hard-coded to drop as deep as the teammates behind. N by dropping deep here isn't just about stay deep, but appear as a striker in the right moment. Only HB can do it. We know HB is oftenly drop as deep as CB but it also come back to his original position when his advanced teammates need him to recycle possession. So my solution is to put the role into STC, give a support duty, and giving the necessary instructions

I don't think that hard coded part will be included in PI. Afterall, it is the essence of the role itself. Why bother using HB if u can use other roles then instruct him to drop and form 3 man defense with both CBs while the team is in possession?

I wouldn't need to bother myself to find certain lines of code inside the sea of codes, n editing them if the F9 has already work like expectation

So, to refer back to the OP for a second, we have now got to the stage in this thread where the way to make Muller work in a Bayern-esque tactic is to hack the game?

I can't find an emoji that adequately resembles the word "ridiculous".

Oh, and please use the word "and".

from what i've seen of bayern games nowadays, some players are assigned with undefinied role, even close as ridiculous perhaps. Once i read an article about how Mueller is playing like a combination of advance playmaker-second striker-wingback in a match.

I've reached to the point where I can freely assign any roles n duties in any position, also combining roles in one position. Will try to recreate other tactical style of play if I have some spare time

Can you check something for me? Do you find that when your False 9 gets on the ball, all he seems to do is wallop it from 20+ yards out?

Yes, this issue has been raised multiple times on here and have supported the assertion whenever I've seen it, yet multiple people have dismissed it. I agree with you 100%. Shoots from distance way too often.

Yes, this issue has been raised multiple times on here and have supported the assertion whenever I've seen it, yet multiple people have dismissed it. I agree with you 100%. Shoots from distance way too often.

that is also one of my main reason to did a little hack. stupid long shots all the way like he is roberto carlos

I play this manager game as well, is very very good... www.managerzone.com/?raf_code=198065

This formation hasn't worked very well for me on FM15. Like many mentioned above, the front three are not lethal enough. The only variation that worked a bit for me was to use a CM(a) and/or a DLF(s) instead of F9(s) with two attacking wide players.

If you just want possession, goals, and wins then you don't need to use a 4-1-2-2-1. I have achieved those goals using a 4-1-3-2 (includes a CM(a)) in FM15. I feel like packing the middle does a better job in FM15 of doing what your board is requesting.

It's a bit funny that rninejr had to HACK the game in order to emulate Messi's role. Don't get me wrong. I don't give a damn about hacking your game. It is your game.

Why the heck is a role named after Messi does NOTHING that Messi does like tries long shots. I guess PPMs or Shoot Less Often PI would offset some of that effect.

Yes, this issue has been raised multiple times on here and have supported the assertion whenever I've seen it, yet multiple people have dismissed it. I agree with you 100%. Shoots from distance way too often.

The reason I raised it was because it was raised in the Barcelona topic a while back:

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/409364-15.1.3-False-nine-shoots-from-distance-too-often-Reviewed

It was even bug reported, but I don't know if that was patched out as I haven't tracked it beyond that one topic.

This formation hasn't worked very well for me on FM15. Like many mentioned above, the front three are not lethal enough. The only variation that worked a bit for me was to use a CM(a) and/or a DLF(s) instead of F9(s) with two attacking wide players.

Exactly the same thing here, using control. I'm using a RMD (which already has the Move Into Channels PI) on one side, IF(a) on the other, DLF(s) with Roam PI, WB(s) on both sides and CM(a).

Btw, love your country!

Is that a Libero in your defence?

Is that a Libero in your defence?

yup, Defender Center Right Position

Is that a Libero in your defence?

yup, Defender Center Right Position

He's hacked the game.

Trying to generate discussion about your game hacks is completely pointless. Please stop.

Instead of hack, I suggest using PPMs to create the false 9 and use the complete forward role.

2 PPMs I will use will be comes deep to get the ball and tries killer ball often. if he is a good dribbler, try runs with ball often.