My Holy Grail

For the least few years I've been pretty obsessed with creating what I consider to be the 'Holy Grail' of football tactics. I've wanted my teams to dominate the ball, press intensely, create countless chances (based on teamwork and interplay over individual ability) and play with invention and flair. I feel like, for the first time, I've finally found what I've been looking for. But to begin, let's go back to 2011...

The date is the 29th of August. Barcelona have just demolished Villareal 5-0 in a stunning display of attacking football (here's Zonal Marking's analysis of the game). Barcelona lined up with a 3-4-3 diamond formation, akin to Van Gaal's Ajax or the 90's and Cruyff's 'Dream Team'. From this moment, I knew that this was how I wanted my teams to play. I set out to create this tactic on football manager.

The idea is that a team can become greater than the sum of their parts, as opposed to simply winning because they have better individuals than the opposition. That is what really appeals to me.

Fast-forwarding to today and (after several failed attempts) I feel I have pretty much cracked it (although there are always the odd tweaks to be made that can squeeze and extra 1% of juice out of the tactic).

So why the 3-4-3 diamond? In my opinion, it is the best attacking shape (that doesn't leave you completely exposed to the counter attack). There are multiple viable ways of creating chances. You have a striker to push the opposition back 4 back, a no.10 to operate in the hole and create havoc, two out-and-out wingers who stretch the pitch, creating gaps in the channels for runs from the CM's and who are always ready for a counter attack. To put it simply, when you get it right it is an absolute joy to watch. Of course, you'll need good players. Players who can keep the ball under pressure and make good decisions on the ball. It also helps to have a bit of pace on the wings and a keeper who can use his feet. The defensive line is pushed up to compress the play, so a central covering CB with pace is essential.

So here it is:

Now, you'll probably noticed that there are a couple of obvious weaknesses to this formation; namely, down our flanks, which brings me to another key concept of the tactic: The formation you attack with is different to the formation you defend with.

As well as setting my WF's to man-mark the opposition FB's, I've also set my CM's to man-mark the opposition's wingers. The CM's are essentially wingbacks in defence and CM's in attack (something that you'll see Marcelo Bielsa employing often). Here's how this tactic looks when defending:

Now, while we're on the topic of Bielsa, one of his principles is that of always having a spare man in defence. That means if the opposition plays 2 strikers, you play 3 CB's. If they play 1 or 3 strikers, you play 4 defenders.

This means that my beloved 3-4-3 tactic is great against teams that play 4-4-2, but not so great against teams that play with only 1 striker. This was where I thought my journey ended for a couple of years. I couldn't seem to find a way around it. I could never get my teams to play as spectacular football without the 3-4-3 diamond.

Then, a couple of days ago, I was reading a piece about Ancelotti at Chelsea and his 4-4-2 diamond tactic. Apparently, his team would defend with the diamond formation and attack with what looks to be a W-M formation. One of the 2 strikers would move to the right wing and Ashley Cole would move up to the left wing position when attacking. If it worked for big Carlo, why couldn't it work for me?

I came up with 2 alternatives. In the first, my team would attack with 3-4-3 diamond and defend in a 4-4-2 diamond (like Chelsea did), with the strikers man-marking the opposition fullbacks. Here's how it looks:

And here's how the players shift when defending:

The second, was to attack in the 3-4-3 diamond (naturally) and defend with a 4-2-3-1 shape. This version I consider to be slightly more attacking, as you have 4 players pressing the back 4, but one less player in the middle. Here's how it looks:

And here's how the players shift when defending:

So what about specifics? I am playing Attacking mentality (I find it makes my team press much better), with Very Fluid philosophy (everyone defends, everyone attacks).

For TI's I am using:

- Retain possession

- Pass into space

- Work ball into box

- Play out of defence

- Drill crosses (only because my attackers are all short)

- Push up higher

- Exploit the middle (although I remove this if teams play with 2 DM's and a 4-4-2 diamond)

- Hassle opponents

- Lower tempo

- Be more disciplined (I want players to stick to their instructions)

I don't use 'Pass shorter' because I don't want to restrict my players in this way. If a player can play a 35 yard defence-splitting ball, why not? I find the need for 'shorter passing' one of the biggest myths with attacking, possession football.

For PI’s (in the 3-4-3 diamond):

- CM’s, AM, ST, WF’s to mark tighter, close down more and shoot less often

- CM’s, AM to roam

- WF’s stay wider

- CB’s to pass shorter

- Stopper CB’s to get further forward

- Left-sided B2B dribble more, get further forward and play more direct passes (basically I want this guy to be Iniesta)

- GK distribute to defenders and pass shorter

You might note that I am still playing FM 2014. That's true, but I imagine these concepts should translate onto FM 2015 without any problem.

I hope some of you find this useful/interesting! Just thought I'd share my findings

BUMP. this is a fantastic read. ive been creating something very similar.

CD(X) CD© CD(X)

DLP(D)

CM(S) RP(S)

IF(S) AP(A) IF(S)

CF(A)

I also get my CM to man mark wingers.

note that i am new to this and am still tweaking and trying new things out. so any help to improve would be appreciated

Only took 8 months to get a reply to this!

That looks pretty good. I generally like to play with a striker on support duty (so that he links up with the midfielders) but I guess it depends on what kind of striker you have!

You might want to try making one of those IF(S) into a WF(S) (particularly if you have a more traditional winger-type player in that position). At the moment I am playing with 2x WF(S) and it's working out really well.

This is the 3-4-3 is asked about in another thread, isn't it? Surprised this didn't get more attention first time round. I like it because it is a relatively unusual formation, and you've shown the influence that specific man marking has when out of possession. I remember doing similar here:

https://whenseagullsfollowthetrawler.wordpress.com/2014/08/11/mighty-morphing-marking-mayhem/

I might just have to start using man marking again. Thanks for creating the thread, and to the second poster for bumping it. Finally might have something I can be bothered to write about at last!

This https://timhi.wordpress.com/2010/09/14/ajax-1995/ is a good read sqirg (if you haven't already seen it.

I've tried this many times and it has been very hit and miss. I'm going to give it another go now.

Do you think the box-to-box mids should maybe instead be inverted-wingback? As the tactics screen is the shape when defending? http://www.zonalmarking.net/2010/06/08/marcelo-bielsa-chile-world-cup-2010-tactics/

Do you think the box-to-box mids should maybe instead be inverted-wingback? As the tactics screen is the shape when defending? http://www.zonalmarking.net/2010/06/08/marcelo-bielsa-chile-world-cup-2010-tactics/

No - IWBs will only move inside when they have possession of the ball, so you'd always have at least one of them (the one without the ball when the opposite one has possession) just behaving like a conventional wing back and you'd be outnumbered in the middle.

Ah is that how they work? I thought they came inside when team had possession...

This https://timhi.wordpress.com/2010/09/14/ajax-1995/ is a good read sqirg (if you haven't already seen it.

I've tried this many times and it has been very hit and miss. I'm going to give it another go now.

Do you think the box-to-box mids should maybe instead be inverted-wingback? As the tactics screen is the shape when defending? http://www.zonalmarking.net/2010/06/08/marcelo-bielsa-chile-world-cup-2010-tactics/

Thanks Silky, I believe I have read that article about a dozen times! It's a great analysis.

No - IWBs will only move inside when they have possession of the ball, so you'd always have at least one of them (the one without the ball when the opposite one has possession) just behaving like a conventional wing back and you'd be outnumbered in the middle.

Exactly this. Also, I originally started this tactic on FM14, before IWBs were part of the match engine.

sqirg - out of interest, can you elaborate on your use of Wingers at AML/R rather than ML/R? Obviously the man marking job they have will drag them deeper when you're out of possession so you "force" them to defend. With them being on Support, they will tend to hit early crosses which you address by using Work Ball Into Box. I just wonder if you start with them high to aid pressing and have them on Support just to ensure they aren't rushing up field too early, in order to aid possession? Did you experiment with them at ML/R?

The issue I'm having with my 3-4-3 diamond is that opposing CMs are being given an awful lot of space. As my CMs are tracking the wingers, any kind of cleared ball is going straight into central midfield. I'm going to try "clear ball to flanks" to see if this will give my players a bit more time to regroup.

i changed my Roaming playmker to a B2B and my IF's to wingers its working great

The issue I'm having with my 3-4-3 diamond is that opposing CMs are being given an awful lot of space. As my CMs are tracking the wingers, any kind of cleared ball is going straight into central midfield. I'm going to try "clear ball to flanks" to see if this will give my players a bit more time to regroup.

This is why I rarely tell my CMs to man-mark the opposition's wingers these (especially if I'm playing against a team with a strong midfield). Try turning off the man-marking and setting your wide CBs to 'close down more'.

sqirg - out of interest, can you elaborate on your use of Wingers at AML/R rather than ML/R? Obviously the man marking job they have will drag them deeper when you're out of possession so you "force" them to defend. With them being on Support, they will tend to hit early crosses which you address by using Work Ball Into Box. I just wonder if you start with them high to aid pressing and have them on Support just to ensure they aren't rushing up field too early, in order to aid possession? Did you experiment with them at ML/R?

That's precisely it. I like my wingers in the AMR/AML position because it puts them right up against the opposition's FBs and makes it a lot easier to stop them from taking short goal kicks. In addition to this, playing wingers in the AMR/AML position gives us more depth when attacking and gives the striker more slightly support.

However, I was getting frustrated with my wingers playing very narrow when the ball was in the final 3rd (when the opposition were camped out on the edge of their own penalty area) so I tried moving them both to the ML/MR position (this was before I was using the 'play wider' TI).

I found that they worked well in this position as they stayed wide during attacking phases for longer, but they still came inside and played narrower eventually (when the ball was in the final 3rd).

what team instruction do you have.

such a great thread, gone unnoticed all this time!

hopefully it becomes more active now, very interested in any further development of this

Thought i’d post the full system that I’m using now as there have been a few changes since I wrote the opening post.

Here’s the shape and roles I’m using:

SK(D)

CD(X) CD© CD(X)

DM(D)

B2B(S) B2B(S)

Winger(S) AP(A) Winger(S)

CF(S)

Counter

Balanced

TI:

Play out of defence

Close down much more

Work ball into box

Tighter marking

Much higher defensive line

Stay on feet

Retain possession

Pass into space

Play wider

Exploit the middle

Be more expressive

PI:

- GK - distribute to defenders, pass shorter

- CB Stoppers - close down more, get further forward, dribble more

- DM - close down less, shoot less often

- B2B - shoot less often, close down more, roam from position

- AM - roam from position

- WF - shoot less often, stay wider, man-mark opposition FBs

- CF - shoot less often, roam from position

thanks mate looks great and is quite similar to mine. may i ask your reasoning behind using balanced and not fluid

Thought i’d post the full system that I’m using now as there have been a few changes since I wrote the opening post.

Here’s the shape and roles I’m using:

SK(D)

CD(X) CD© CD(X)

DM(D)

B2B(S) B2B(S)

Winger(S) AP(A) Winger(S)

CF(S)

Counter

Balanced

TI:

Play out of defence

Close down much more

Work ball into box

Tighter marking

Much higher defensive line

Stay on feet

Retain possession

Pass into space

Play wider

Exploit the middle

Be more expressive

PI:

- GK - distribute to defenders, pass shorter

- CB Stoppers - close down more, get further forward, dribble more

- DM - close down less, shoot less often

- B2B - shoot less often, close down more, roam from position

- AM - roam from position

- WF - shoot less often, stay wider, man-mark opposition FBs

- CF - shoot less often, roam from position

Really interesting ideas here. I've tried to get 3 atb formations to work but I always come unstuck when playing against lone striker systems, which unfortunately seems to be often

I don't know if you've watched much Bayern Munich under Pep, but he seems to employ a centre back who has licence to bomb forwards if needed, and dribble with the ball. Sort of like a box-to-box centre back. I've tried to replicate this using a Libero but I haven't managed to get it to fully work

Really interesting ideas here. I've tried to get 3 atb formations to work but I always come unstuck when playing against lone striker systems, which unfortunately seems to be often

I don't know if you've watched much Bayern Munich under Pep, but he seems to employ a centre back who has licence to bomb forwards if needed, and dribble with the ball. Sort of like a box-to-box centre back. I've tried to replicate this using a Libero but I haven't managed to get it to fully work

Box to box centre back is a good way to describe it! I recall Emre Can playing a similar role in a back 3 for Liverpool last season. That's essentially the role I've tried to create with the 2 wide Stopper CBs, but unfortunately it seems there's no way to replicate this kind of role in the game yet. Hopefully FM17 makes this a possibility. It's a bit of a shame really, as often these players will have so much time on the ball in the opposition half that I'm willing them on to drive towards the opposition's goal and create havoc for their defence.

One of the reasons I like this shape so much (3-diamond-3) is because it helps you avoid the typical 'U-shaped' build-up play that so many teams seem to play.

Box to box centre back is a good way to describe it! I recall Emre Can playing a similar role in a back 3 for Liverpool last season. That's essentially the role I've tried to create with the 2 wide Stopper CBs, but unfortunately it seems there's no way to replicate this kind of role in the game yet. Hopefully FM17 makes this a possibility. It's a bit of a shame really, as often these players will have so much time on the ball in the opposition half that I'm willing them on to drive towards the opposition's goal and create havoc for their defence.

One of the reasons I like this shape so much (3-diamond-3) is because it helps you avoid the typical 'U-shaped' build-up play that so many teams seem to play.

Yeah that's right, I remember that too.

I don't really see a way of getting around it, unless you switch to a 2 man defence. Maybe you could move the 3rd centre back somewhere else and drop 2 players back to be wingbacks? But then you lose the diamond functionality

I'm going to get stuck into this I think, I've been chickening out of doing anything seriously tactical on this version, I usually play the same way with every team I manage so switching it up might be good

Yeah that's right, I remember that too.

I don't really see a way of getting around it, unless you switch to a 2 man defence. Maybe you could move the 3rd centre back somewhere else and drop 2 players back to be wingbacks? But then you lose the diamond functionality

I'm going to get stuck into this I think, I've been chickening out of doing anything seriously tactical on this version, I usually play the same way with every team I manage so switching it up might be good

TBH i think the only way to really create a Box to box defender is a Libero. But its a tricky position to master

Just seen a couple of articles on Spielverlagerung related to this:

http://spielverlagerung.com/2015/12/29/2011-club-world-cup-final-barcelona-santos-40/

http://spielverlagerung.com/2015/12/29/1995-cl-final-afc-ajax-ac-milan-10/

Box to box centre back is a good way to describe it! I recall Emre Can playing a similar role in a back 3 for Liverpool last season. That's essentially the role I've tried to create with the 2 wide Stopper CBs, but unfortunately it seems there's no way to replicate this kind of role in the game yet. Hopefully FM17 makes this a possibility. It's a bit of a shame really, as often these players will have so much time on the ball in the opposition half that I'm willing them on to drive towards the opposition's goal and create havoc for their defence.

One of the reasons I like this shape so much (3-diamond-3) is because it helps you avoid the typical 'U-shaped' build-up play that so many teams seem to play.

I've thought about it a bit more and I think that PPMs could be the way to go. Having a centre back with "runs with ball often" or something might work?

You can't get central defenders to advance up field in support of attacks, no matter what PIs or PPMs you give them. It's just not coded into the game.

You can have a Libero advance high up the pitch, but that's a different kettle of fish.

Shame its not coded in the game, as theyve been doing it for years Alan Hansen coming to mind. Most recently for Liverpool Danny Agger.

Excellent thread here, guys! I've started out much the same way as the OP did and been trying to implement a lot of what Bielsa does, but found the lack of movement from IWBs incredible frustrating! Excellent idea with the man2man marking of wingers.

Can't wait to get home and see what I can come up with.

You can't get central defenders to advance up field in support of attacks, no matter what PIs or PPMs you give them. It's just not coded into the game.

You can have a Libero advance high up the pitch, but that's a different kettle of fish.

You could potentially set them to swap positions with someone I guess? (i.e. with a MC) but that doesn't really give the benefit of the extra man being forward.

Great read, are you playing in fm16 now btw?

This is why I rarely tell my CMs to man-mark the opposition's wingers these (especially if I'm playing against a team with a strong midfield). Try turning off the man-marking and setting your wide CBs to 'close down more'.

this is a realllllly good suggestion, one that could actually work to!

im determined to follow through with getting this tactic to work even if its 75% working - i would be happy!

It's been a while, but I have developed my tactic even further. Why? I found that we weren't creating the kinds of chances for my striker that I'd like (and as a result he wasn't scoring enough) and I found that my midfielders weren't getting forward and breaking into the box enough.

How did I change this?

I am now playing 'Attacking', 'Fluid'.

I am using 'Attacking' because it allows my midfielders to make more vertical runs, breaing past the frontman more often and generally results in better attacking play.

The problem with playing 'Attacking' is that it also forces my players to play riskier passes, rather than patiently probing and waiting for an opening. To counter-balance this additional risk that 'Attacking' brings with it (over 'Counter) I have set all of my players (minus the False 9 and #10) the 'fewer risky passes' PI.

Another major change that I have made is to move the AMR/AML to the ML/MR strata, giving them 'Wide Midfielder(Attack)' roles. Their PI's are 'Get further forward', 'Stay wider', 'Dribble less', 'Shoot less', 'Cut inside with ball'. I want them to stay wide, stretching the defence, and then funnel the ball into the central players, rather than trying to run down the wing and cross (this is purely an aesthetic choice, as I like to see my team pass the ball through the middle). I am using MR/ML instead of AMR/AML because they tend to stay wider much more than AML/AMR's do. AML/AMR's tend to come inside when the ball is in the final third, restricting your team's width.

The final major change (and possibly the biggest) is to move AP(A) in the AMC spot back to MC (still as an AP(A), positioned between the other two CMs) and to move the striker back to the AMC spot and make him an AP(A). I did this because I want my striker to play like a false 9, but I found the False 9 role doesn't work how I'd like, and playing a strikerless system is creating all kinds of gaps to exploit that we never previously could.

For those keeping track, the setup now looks like this:

SK(D)

BPD(X) CB© BPD(X)

DM(D)

WM(A) B2B(S) AP(A) B2B(S) WM(A)

AP(A)

I guess you could call it a 3-1-5-1-0, or a 3-7-0.

I used a similar shape in past versions and the key to making it all work for me was to make the defensive midfielder a half back. This causes him to basically act as another centre back when you don't have the ball pushing the two wide centre backs out wide into fullback positions.