Animation Is Bad and Boring

Why all the time the players just running past opponent with the ball and not using skill such as nutmeg, step over, etc., even a player with high technique, dribbling, first touch, and creativity (vision) attribute such as Lionel Messi and Neymar?

Boring to watch, very different to real life soccer match.

Also, when a player possessing a ball, being closed down by an opponent, most of them (the animation), the player just standing and turn around with the ball few degrees, holding the ball in his possession, and then decide to past the ball to a teammate.

Because SI don't have millions and millions to spend on animations, and would rather sink their efforts into the stuff that matters behind the animations. So the complete opposite of most football games.

If you compare the Match Engine of FM to that of FIFA, I know which approach I'd prefer.

FM15 was the first time SI were able to use motion capture whereas other sports game developers have had the financial resources to use that technology from years, maybe even more than a decade for some, as such it is to be expected that the visual fidelity is not up there with what you see in sports action games.

Over time I expect more that more & more player animation will be added to enhance the feeling of game world immersion but for now I accept it for what it is but also revel in the fact that the core FM 15 match engine is capable of playing a full 90 minute match in real time to a higher level of accuracy than anything else I've seen in any other football game out there.

Even in this version once in a while a player DOES do the unexpected such as back heel/bicycle kick and - the fact that its rare makes it more awesome imho.

I've seen Muniain pull off a back-heel volley that took 3 players out of the game, it was a thing of beauty.

The initial post doesn't reference other football/sports action games or compare them to others...just stating its bad in itself which it is...and has been since rewrite...it hasn't come about through first use of motion capture...its been there last two years prior to this.

Its quite poor and not becoming of the standards Si used to set

Its quite poor and not becoming of the standards Si used to set

Where does this even come from? If you're looking at it from a purely FM stand-point, as you claim to be, then the standards of the 3D representation have been getting better and better each and every year.

Things like this make me laugh, if you play FM for its animations and graphics, then you are always going to be disappointed! The animations have only got better, if you compare FM15 to the first FM with 3D it is massively different and miles better

as i claim to be...lol...funny...just funny !!!

I think its important to make the distinction between improvement of 3D/animation/lighting etc in itself and how well they then represent real life football...particularly in reference to the initial post which is the relevance here.

The animations themselves look better (bar the disproportionately long arms lol)/the lighting etc i'd completely agree they're going in the right direction...unquestionably so and improving absolutely yes. Looking at the big picture of using 3D to represent as best as possible a game of football (aforementioned skill/dribbles/first touch/technique etc) then looking at how it represents actual football in terms of depiction of skill etc then they are certainly not better...its undeniable...players turning is poor/first touch is poor/dribbling/skill is poor and their poor depiction results in turnovers and some poor play where it shouldn't.

Look back prior to rewrite and all above were far better represented within the 3D/engine (try and get over your citing of players running through others as an example of what enabled it to be better...it wasn't that common and first touch etc was better with no one even around).

The representation of skill/creativity etc within current game is quite bland and what holds it back from being an awesome watch/immersive/closest to real football experience you could get

Poor animation is the least thing you should worry about in such a game. If you do not like the animation, go for 2D.

Ill rather have SI up their effort on ME and adding new features we have yet not seen and a better manual on explaining player roles, duty, PIs/TIs.

Dribbling was much worse prior to FM15, every player & I mean every player could run with the ball as if it was tether to the feet on a 10 cm string, now players with lower dribbling ability do not have anywhere near the close control & if they have pace they are more likely to knock the ball into space ahead of them which is what real life players do.

First touch looks worse for exactly the same reason, in the past all players could trap a ball right at their feet & now the players who are lacking in the right ability find it harder to get the ball under contract, this is even the case for some of the more technically proficient players which again is much more like real life.

To say that the match engine & visual elements were better before FM15 betrays what I can only call a lack of appreciation for real life football & the fact that it can be quite bland with very little flair & for the most part players being more likely to take the easy option or worse the wrong option rather than the dramatic or technically correct option.

I was talking specifically about depiction of skill etc not being as good...which it isn’t..and anyone who thinks watching Fm15 that the likes of messi/silva/james etc have their skills accurately represented lacks appreciation for real life football and the watching thereof ...it is nowhere near it, unfortunately. Whereas prior to rewrite the likes of messi etc were much closer to real life.

What you've said there makes sense in terms of capturing the relative differences between different levels of skill...and you can see it to a point and I know what you mean about better first touch in previous versions. It does not, however, translate that dribbling/first touch is better represented in itself...just that the relative differences are better represented (and that’s arguable anyway in terms of watching the 3D..I don’t ever remember watching low attribute dribblers produce good instances of dribbling with ball glued to their feet prior to rewrite despite them being able to as you describe…in fact I see more of it now and not for the right reasons).

It’s obvious from watching current FM that highly technical players attributes are just not up to scratch...or are anywhere near it. Just because Messi representation of skill is better than John Terry representation of skill doesn't make Messi representation of skill as good as it should be or even that good in itself. However, to say dribbling was much worse prior to 15 just because every player could run with the ball is a wrong starting point/mindset. Ultimately what you want to do is represent real life football. If allowing players to have a great first touch allows that better doesn’t make it the wrong way to go if by not allowing players to have a great first touch disables the proper representation of better players technical attributes.

In terms of actually watching the representation in 3D it was a lot clearer prior to rewrite which were highly skilled players and those that were not and workhorse players didn't seem capable of dribbling to the same level as others...so I'd actually say the differences were more exagerrated previously due to high level of dribbling being enabled in the first place. Also representation of agility was better than it is now. Players with poor attributes can now dribble well but its specific PIs/ppms which seems to enable them to do it and drive it rather than having their attributes enabling them/driving them to do it.

There is definitely a more bland representation now of technical attributes. I would say certainly there is a difference between levels but not to the extent which you're saying it is compared with before. And also it’s more of the ‘how’ rather than the statistical production of a successful dribble etc in itself which is the crux of it really.

And in itself Messi/Silva first touch is nowhere near level you see in real life nor is their ability to dribble diagonally etc...also agility and players turning is simply poor and nowhere near representative of real life. I agree with you about players in tight spaces should be more difficult but there are plenty of players whose first touch is more than up to scratch enough to control it in tight spaces where their attributes are good enough to enable them to do it but the representation of first touch in itself is not good enough and their agility doesn’t allow them to get out of certain situations and their vision etc should also contribute to getting out of it through seeing small spaces to wriggle out of or to pass it off…ive messi in mind there…I do appreciate in real life that skill levels of all players wouldn’t enable it but eg messi standards not as they should be even when not in tight space/under pressure and agilty/dribbling/first touch representation (however it WAS done) in Fm12 and before allowed a better representation of these real life attributes.

Just to also note that players skill levels when playing against players of similar talent levels would enable that their first touch/dribbling etc is not as bad as it would look when playing against better players. I'm sure anyone that has actually played football at any level will notice that there are players who can play well and display good touch and dribbling at certain levels and those attributes look good in themselves. However as they begin to test themselves at higher levels and against better players their touch and dribbling doesn't look as good as it did playing against players at lower levels and of course the opposite holds true as you go down levels…eg its easier dribble past players lower down the talent spectrum.

So the development of the game to allow players have a good first touch for good touch itself was fine in that at certain levels their first touch WILL be fine playing against players of a similar level...ie their first touch will look like it is glued to their feet sometimes...to take away as you've alluded to that a player with lower dribbling ability/close control in itself has poor first touch/close control is not the right way to do it as this should only come into play as that player goes through the levels.

It’s a better starting point to allow players to have good first touch/good dribbling ability, period and then display the relative differential also taking into account talent levels. After all the players attributes are actual relative attributes...ie 20 is 14 better than a 6...it doesn't mean if you put that player with a 6 first touch on his own on the training ground will struggle to control the ball or indeed on a pitch with players of similar or less ability...against players at his own/lower level he'll be fine in most matches but going up the pyramid that first touch of 6 becomes more apparent. The majority of professional footballers (tho certainly not all ) have a basic competence of being able to control the ball etc. The approach of not allowing players certain attributes to be good in itself eliminates/limits their actual attributes deeming them just relative to another attribute rather than talent/ability levels and ultimately is not a proper representation of real life. Essentially allow for proper depiction of attributes and ultimately then find other ways to defend them rather than reduce depiction of attributes cos the engine cant defend against them.

So a better starting point is that players first touch is good then the relative depiction changes taking into account talent/ability levels. Look back at Fm12 and prior and you’ll see a players dribbling and technical skills are better represented. It’s actually more obvious from looking at passages of play which are highly technical and which are not than it is in FM15. Whatever enables that to happen is not really relevant. Just because everyone now doesn’t have a glue like first touch doesn’t mean it’s better represented…that’s just dealing with relative ratings of attributes.

In real life planting a messi or highly technical players in a lower league team they would be standout technical players…this is not apparent in Fm15. Again if you were to do this in FM (and I have) then its abundantly clear from looking at the 3d match that by comparing FM15 to prior to rewrite they are not that standout technically from the other players on the pitch (in terms of how their first touch/dribbling/passing etc looks) currently where they stood head and shoulders above prior to rewrite. Yes they will dribble past and get the dribbling stats and other production stats but the way/the how its depicted messi first touch/dribbling not good enough in itself. It just looks shoddy.

The kicker is when players are not around anyone or have space to dribble into…messi first touch should be immaculate and dribbling should ball be tight to his feet…currently this is simply not the case. There are too many incidents of awful first touches/poor agility/poor diagonal & lateral dribbles being represented (and plenty without anyone on them putting pressure) to suggest that they’re better than before…that is simply not the case.

Other than accepting that the animations have a lot of development room (I've never said otherwise) we will have to agree to disagree on the point that this FM is worse than previous versions in the success it has in attempting to represent a real game of football.

I think they've started to improve that area of the game with using Motion Capture Technology it will improve steadily in the future.

Other than accepting that the animations have a lot of development room (I've never said otherwise) we will have to agree to disagree on the point that this FM is worse than previous versions in the success it has in attempting to represent a real game of football.

This pretty sums it up, and agree Chesters86, it will allow the animations to improve at a greater rate than before. Going to be a long term development.

Other than accepting that the animations have a lot of development room (I've never said otherwise) we will have to agree to disagree on the point that this FM is worse than previous versions in the success it has in attempting to represent a real game of football.

cool . i'm not necessarily saying that its a worse representation of a real game of football...in terms of some passages of play the engine has been richer than ever before in some senses...really impressive to be fair. Some elements are better for sure. I just mean specifically in terms of how attributes (primarily technical) are represented is poor. Once that is addressed then it'll be an incredible watch. Roll on Fm16 !!!

tho just seeing the madsheeps post...roll on FM21 ?!?!

I think one of the biggest problems is that people interpret the animations as what is really happening, so when the animation shows a player turning on the spot, or a goalkeeper falling down instead of saving the an easy shot, they think that is what the ME is actually doing. Whereas really, the animations are a representation of what the ME is doing. A player turning around is the animation's interpretation of a player looking for options to pass a ball, a goalkeeper falling over is the animation used to when a goalkeeper lacks the agility to reposition his body for the shot etc.

^^WHS^^

The ME will calculate the flair dribble or keeper being dumped on his backside while the 3D view attempts to show this to us & over time more animations will no doubt be added.

Hi, a lot of people mention FIFA in comparison but the FIFA I last brought 2013/14 has no 3d match engine in manager mode. Maybe this has changed but I think SI do the best they can considering their size. Ideally if Sega still exsisted somewhat it would have been cool for them to do the match engine. Leaving SI to do the main bulk of the game.

Ideally if Sega still exsisted somewhat it would have been cool for them to do the match engine. Leaving SI to do the main bulk of the game.

If Sega still existed somewhat? What do you mean by that? Sega owns SI. I don't know that Sega have a whole lot to do with making the game, however. Is that what you mean?

If Sega still existed somewhat? What do you mean by that? Sega owns SI. I don't know that Sega have a whole lot to do with making the game, however. Is that what you mean?

They were saying in the news that Sega plan to lay off 300 staff so I was referring to Sega not being in the position at the moment to worry about the FM match engine. There concern seems to staying alive. But in a ideal situation it would have made sense for Sega to develop the 3D match engine. People might say why would they be bothered. Well I imagine FM sells a lot more than the recent Sonic games.

They were saying in the news that Sega plan to lay off 300 staff so I was referring to Sega not being in the position at the moment to worry about the FM match engine. There concern seems to staying alive. But in a ideal situation it would have made sense for Sega to develop the 3D match engine. People might say why would they be bothered. Well I imagine FM sells a lot more than the recent Sonic games.

SEGA publish the game. SI develop it. It wouldn't make sense for anyone else to develop the 3D engine (which isn't the Match Engine) as they have no visibility on the rest of the game. It's that simple.

Why all the time the players just running past opponent with the ball and not using skill such as nutmeg, step over, etc., even a player with high technique, dribbling, first touch, and creativity (vision) attribute such as Lionel Messi and Neymar?

Boring to watch, very different to real life soccer match.

Also, when a player possessing a ball, being closed down by an opponent, most of them (the animation), the player just standing and turn around with the ball few degrees, holding the ball in his possession, and then decide to past the ball to a teammate.

Feel free to call me old-fashioned, but I'm not sure I actually want SI to do too much on the graphics front.

FM's strength are, and always have been, the detail on things like the player database, player intelligence, the complex virtual world it creates, and the match engine.

I don't want to play a game that looks amazing, like FIFA, I actually think the tempatition would be to put too many visual bells & whistles in. I would rather SI continue to focus on making a realistic MANAGEMENT simulation of football, which is what FM strives to be / is (depending on your POV).

Also, I actually quite like to use my imagination a little bit, "see" the bits I don't see. As long as I can tell from a tactical point of view what's occuring on the pitch, that's fine for the purpose of this game IMO.

Feel free to call me old-fashioned, but I'm not sure I actually want SI to do too much on the graphics front.

FM's strength are, and always have been, the detail on things like the player database, player intelligence, the complex virtual world it creates, and the match engine.

I don't want to play a game that looks amazing, like FIFA, I actually think the tempatition would be to put too many visual bells & whistles in. I would rather SI continue to focus on making a realistic MANAGEMENT simulation of football, which is what FM strives to be / is (depending on your POV).

Also, I actually quite like to use my imagination a little bit, "see" the bits I don't see. As long as I can tell from a tactical point of view what's occuring on the pitch, that's fine for the purpose of this game IMO.

I think the game needs more visual representation with press conferences. The press conferences are boring. A 3D MOTD team interviewing you after the match would be cool but that's too much I guess.

I'm with his lordship, I don't enjoy the game any less when using 2D (which I do quite often)

I'm with his lordship, I don't enjoy the game any less when using 2D (which I do quite often)

Same here, but the 3D is rather dated looking and i can imagine younger players unlike my age group that remember waiting 20 mins for a game to load from cassette may expect a lot more. The kids now days are brought up with visuals. I would prefer they stick with the 2D match engine and add more depth to the game in general and fix the bugs quicker.