90 minutes of torture

hello everybody,

I am in the middle of a Burton Albion save in League 2. my tactic is as follows,

GK/D

FB/S CD/D CD/D WB/A

W/A DLP/D B2B WM/S

DLF/S AF/A

TEAM INSTRUCTIONS

Defensive/Structured

Retain Possession,

Shorter Passing,

Work Ball into Box,

Play Out of Defence,

Be More Disciplined,

I watch the entire game and its torture.

the idea behind the tactic is to be a compact and disciplined unit whilst defending, then hopefully nick the ball off the opponent and then work our way up the pitch using nice short passes to create space in the opposition that I can then exploit.

what I am seeing is short passes but no progress up the pitch until we get cornered and then the inevitable long clearance. wing back passes to wide midfielder, wide midfielder passes inside to central midfielder, boom I have opened a lovely space up down the channel behind the opposition full back, oh dear, my central midfielder passes the ball behind my wing back. I am certain this is not a problem with the match engine and is down to me not picking the right team instructions for the style I want to play.

I recently played Oxford and their 4231 formation. I never managed a single shot at goal. this is the first time I have managed in league two and was also wondering if it is just the standard of player that makes it so hard to watch but if so how do so many people have enjoyable careers starting in the lower leagues?

I repeat my statement from before that I am not complaining about the match engine. I am actually asking if anyone can see anything in my tactics that's making me play like Man Utd at the moment.

You are sitting back too much for that level of football, plus expecting your L2 side to play like champs and move the ball out of defense....you have a winger on your right flank who absolutely needs to have great talent and blistering acceleration, good decisions and basically be the prime evil of your side, because honestly your dlp will either look for him when he has the ball or the wingback who's been set to overlap...this will only happen if you have the ball and are pinging it around their half.

You want your play to go through the DLP that makes sense, and you are playing shorter passing...hmm..one thing you could do is to set the fullbacks to less risky passing if you want that way it gets to the dip, you are expecting a lot of play to come in late, hence your settings. Personally to encourage your players to hold the ball better, get the fullbacks to take less risk and play short..that you can do from PI, get the two up front to tackle harder and close down more, that should give you high press. I am playing a counter attacking 442 and use everythign in my power to score including set pieces. So there is still a bit you can do.

You need to remember you have set it up to build play up when you have the ball and are in the opponents half. Thats what I would expect if i use those shouts...cos it would allow me to camp move the ball around and then wham score..You could go narrow, use specific PIs for your wingers to either cut in.....theres plenty you can do. My atletico save uses a 442 thats entirely built for counterattacking play.

Another thing you wanna do for LLM, is to make sure you spent some time analysing your squad vs the league. I find that speed, pace, acceleration, stamina first touch composure and anticipation rule the roost there. I reckon for L2 you should be baselining at around 12 for those attributes

Cambridge just had 14 shots with 11 on target, 8 ccc.

I had 2 shots both from range.

my keeper clears the ball which hits my centre back and flies in the goal.

thanks for the reply mate. I think I just have to accept that I don't know what im doing with the tactic and that I will never enjoy playing the game.

I went defensive after reading through cleons defensive thread the other year and his new thread this year.

its hard for me to admit but I don't understand the tactics, team instructions and player roles and how to get them to work how I want my team to play.

the opposition sit back so I lower my mentality hoping to create space. I do create space but in front of my defensive line and before long I get done. I try to counter this affect by pushing up and then I get done with a ball over the top.

I only get around two hours a day on the game as I travel long distances for work but I can honestly say it is the most stressful two hours of my day.

I have never quit anything but I think trying to work this game out might just be my match.

It looks like you are doubling up on the TI's a bit. Retain possesion already shortens passing, and you have added the same TI to shorten it again. Likewise retain possession will lower your tempo, and with defensive mentality you will already be at a very low tempo.

You dont need to understand finite detail to get some enjoyment out of the game i would say, although it certainly helps to understand more.

Its impressive that your prepared to watch the games in such detail, and that should help you - Why dont you scrap everything you have got, go to standard mentality, no TIs, No PI's (maybe keeper distribution only?) and watch a full game on that - You might find that you can create what you were thinking of with less TI and a less extreme mentality.

On your roles and duties though, i would have a think about how you expect to score goals. You have one attack duty striker which is good, but your only attack duty in midfield is a winger, who will be touchline hugging likely and not getting into the box. Part of the reason you are likely not getting enough chances is because youve no runners into the box? B2B can be hard to master at LLM.

LLM can utilise many of the same tactical principles as any other level of game, as long as you arent going for extremes - So in other words Barca style Tika-taka, Dortmund Pressing or Athletico intensity are not likely at Burton. However moderate tactics which bring success at top clubs can work just as well at LLM.

I have just started out an LLM save for the first time in ages myself. Managing Crewe, who are a division above you but at the same time tipped to finish dead last. I am using the exact same tactical setup i used to win the EPL with Liverpool and take Bilbao to the CL Semi's in previous saves. The reason i feel comfortable doing this, is that its a fairly moderate tactic - none of the extreme instructions are set and it has a style of play which can be translated onto most levels of player.

Hope you do continue

I will be trying again with a simplified with a 4123 formation.

. GK/D

FB/S. CD/D CD/D WB/A

. DM/D

. MC/S. AP/S

IF/A. IF/S

. DLF/S

I might change the WB/A to a CWB/A. I'll have to see how he links up with the IF/A. Not all of runners from midfield but I want to leave as much space as I can for the front 3. My midfielders have no pace so that's the set up I've been pondering.

I will be trying again with a simplified with a 4123 formation.

. GK/D

FB/S. CD/D CD/D WB/A

. DM/D

. MC/S. AP/S

IF/A. IF/S

. DLF/S

I might change the WB/A to a CWB/A. I'll have to see how he links up with the IF/A. Not all of runners from midfield but I want to leave as much space as I can for the front 3. My midfielders have no pace so that's the set up I've been pondering.

Iwould change your MC(s) to MC(a) for more penetration from midfield or if you feel that's too attacking at least BBM with get further forward PI.

Will he not get in the same space as the DLF/S and IF/A are trying to operate in?

Will he not get in the same space as the DLF/S and IF/A are trying to operate in?

Give him move in channels PI.My MC(a)gets 15-20 goals a season.

With the MC/S he will balance risk with reward. I'm hopeful he'll either lurk outside the area to link the IF/A or get in the box on the end of crosses when we switch the play over to the other side. At least that's my thinking behind the roles.

None of my CM really have the pace to beat their marker so arriving late will get better use of them i hope.

set centre backs to short passing, team instructions to retain possession, pass shorter and play out of defence. centre back receives ball from GK..............smash. GK receives ball from DLP/D............smash.

and why does the ball bounce of my players faster than it was passed to them. anybody else think the games gone worse since the patch. my defensive forward has stopped tracking back.

smash. im playing defensive but concede 3 a game. smash. at least 1 penalty every game. smash.

watch how they play. Is a particular player in the opp side orchestrating the offense? there usually is.

Even more important, what is your striker doing when defending? just standing around between the opp defenders and midfielders? Try asking him to man mark the opp most defensive midfielder specifically - that takes away their out ball and you DLF can then surge into space. from a slightly deeper position. Not sure if thaT'll work with the defensive mentaility and a support duty striker but worth a shot. To me, in any system without an AMC it is vital that your striker is a pain up the arse for the opp. holding mids.

its hard for me to admit but I don't understand the tactics, team instructions and player roles and how to get them to work how I want my team to play.

You are not alone here - I am a Kiwi who understands Rugby real well - this Soccer thingy sometimes drives me insane!

I have never quit anything but I think trying to work this game out might just be my match.

I felt this way, and little by little the penny starts to drop. There is hope - what I discovered and what amazed me was the fact that less is more!

Playing FM14 I took Tonbridge to the title with an out of the box tactic and almost no Team Instructions and Player Instructions. I just picked a fomation that matched my players and it came together - then I got smart and thought I could tune the formation. Relegated from Skrill Premier with 2 wins the next year....

A flat 442 is all but a possession tactic. You only have 2 central players in all midfield, this is just the opposite of a possession-friendly formation. On top of that, with "structured" your DLF will not help out much.

A flat 442 is a defensively stable tactic that can do just one thing: Bomb down the wings and cross (or cut inside sometimes). That's why it has never been popular outside of England (England being overly focused on wingers)

im a Liverpool supporter so ive been playing around with a 343 formation. I was inspired to go defensive after reading Cleons excellent thread. Shrewsbury have loads of centre forwards so it made sense to try 3 forwards.

ive had a penalty given against me in 8 games on the trot now with at least 3 "he certainly never meant that" type crosses in to my box from ridiculous places which almost always hit the woodwork or bring a save from my keeper. it cant be the tactic.

the set up is the similar to Cleons flat 343 in all honesty. I started with 3 shouts which where, retain possession, pass into space and stick to positions. I dropped pass into space and replaced it with shorter passing as I felt we sent too many long balls forward too quickly. I then swapped stick to positions for be more disciplined as I felt the players were being a bit to rigid.

im currently playing with the tempo and I now understand why Cleon has it set to much slower in his tactic. I seem to play the ball forward a bit quick and as im set to defensive my players are in naturally deep starting positions most of the time. because of this my play seems to bypass the midfield, which is key as I want to slowly play through the midfield into the front 3.

I think I will have to scrap the defensive approach. conceding goals for fun. the opposition just walz through my ranks unchallenged. I can see why people stay clear of the defensive approach as it seem so negative on the pitch.

Lol Cleon will sigh reading your post, if he does.

Is there a thread/info as to what TI's conflict with control/defensive etc? After reading it seems standard may well be the best with the TI's to play defensive by dropping deeper/narrower/stick to positions etc

I think I will have to scrap the defensive approach. conceding goals for fun. the opposition just walz through my ranks unchallenged. I can see why people stay clear of the defensive approach as it seem so negative on the pitch.

No it's not negative at all and people don't stay clear of it, it's probably one of the more popular mentalities that people use currently. Your issue is you are using a system that you don't understand, you don't seem to know how it works and why and what the weak points of the formation are. This is why you always formation hop and always have similar issues because rather than learning about the formation you just move on to the next one and then the same things happen again.

I have read your defensive thread in its entirety and came up with that set up. I was sick and tired of clogging up the oppositions half with my players and waiting for a mistake in their ranks to get my chance. I was almost always playing attacking/control. after reading the thread I thought it was the answer. starting play from deeper and not bombing forward every time we have the ball. I used to see the classic 60% possession, 15 shots, 10 of them from stupid places and them the opposition counter me 3 times and score 2 to win the game. I wanted a change.

in defence I want a low solid block of players who will make it hard for the opposition to find passing angles through my team.

Defensive - Mentality I have chosen. I want the team in a lower more compact starting point.

Flexible - I started on structured but I found the strikers staying to far upfront. I moved to flexible and they seem to move up and down the pitch more as a unit.

Retain Possession - I don't want my players forcing the issue and handing the ball back to my opponent.

Shorter Passing - With 3 men up front it would be easy for my team to go long so I want to encourage them to play through midfield.

More disciplined - I want the team to retain its shape first and foremost. If I can master keeping clean sheets I will win more games than I lose.

Lower Tempo - Ties in with the first 2 really. my team were playing the ball about too fast at first and I was struggling to get men forward to keep up with play leaving me stretched across the pitch and exposed.

GK/d - No point having anything else. SW would send to many passes long.

CD/x - With no full/wing back I felt he needed to be a bit more aggressive to cover the flank.

CD/c - I might change this to BPD/c as my centre back Goldson has the PPI tries long passes. could be useful to launch a counter.

CD/c - With no full/wing back I felt he needed to be a bit more aggressive to cover the flank.

DW/s - I have played around with these from CWB both duties to WM/s. None of them offer the cover down the flanks and in central midfield like the DW/s does.

DLP/d - I have played with the CM/d here but he closes down to much and only having 2 centrally I needed him to be a bit less aggressive.

BBM/RPM - The role I am still not sure on. the RPM does offer a better outlet and creative force so I may go with that.

DW/s - I have played around with these from CWB both duties to WM/s. None of them offer the cover down the flanks and in central midfield like the DW/s does.

DF/d - As I am lightweight in midfield I wanted 1 of the strikers to drop in and help out. If he can close down the opposition DM or CM it will mean my 2 CM can stay compact and leave less room.

P/AF - Again not fully sure. the AF seems to move around to much and is sometimes found out wide when a through ball from my DLF/s is on.

DLF/s - the link man. I want him to drop deep and receive the ball or pull a hole in the opposition back line for the P/AF to exploit.

That's why have done what I have done after reading various threads on various forums. I now feel incredibly stupid and useless as all of the reading I have done has not improved my tactic building in the slightest.

I watch the full 90 minutes of every game.

I have seen my weakness out wide and changed the roles but found it got worse. as I said I played around until I found a role that I thought offered me the best cover.

I have seen the weakness in midfield and changed to a DF/d from a F9 as he dropped deeper out of possession and does help to add numbers in midfield.

Am I doing something fundamentally wrong here?

Is there a thread/info as to what TI's conflict with control/defensive etc? After reading it seems standard may well be the best with the TI's to play defensive by dropping deeper/narrower/stick to positions etc

I did try playing narrow but I found my team exactly that. All of the goals I conceded came from out wide so I scrapped it.

No need for such language. No-one is going to offer to help if you chuck the toys out of the pram. Either post constructively or don't bother at all as the thread will be closed if it happens again and a warning given.

No need for such language. No-one is going to offer to help if you chuck the toys out of the pram. Either post constructively or don't bother at all as the thread will be closed if it happens again and a warning given.

Cleon - what was the bad language?

I undersrstand the OP all too well myself, I must have read so many threads but still struggling although I feel I am making some progress.

I have made it my mission this week to read all I can about a Manager I most admire and his name is Marcelo Bielsa, I loved his Bilbao team so this week I am going to take notes and try to implement his system in FM.

I will probably fail but will post results later in the week.

Maybe you could try something like this?

The post where he was swearing and ranting was deleted.

The post where he was swearing and ranting was deleted.

oh apologies, i thought it seemed strange as you always come across like a really nice guy so was confused

I'd give up on the 4-4-2 if you want to play defensive. The first reason is tactical, in that a 4-4-2 doesn't give you enough players in the defensive strata to control the ball deep. You need some DMs. The second reason relates to an idiosyncrasy of the current ME, which stops the deeper forward dropping deep enough or the midfield pushing up quickly enough in defensive systems. While this doesn't matter with the right setup, with a 4-4-2, it leaves a huge gap between midfield and attack. This stops you from a) being able to play the ball out of defence as the ball player quickly runs out of options and b) launching it forward for a quick counter as both FCs are too high, meaning the defensive line can mark them out of the game and quickly snaffle up the ball.

Try a 4-2-2-1-1 (2 DMs, 1 AMC), which should help you solidify whilst getting the shape you are after.

I have scrapped the defensive football and gone back to more familiar ground. I am back with Liverpool trying the hipster 3-4-2-1 and 3-4-3 formations.

the first is as follows,

[/img]

the second is as follows,

[/img]

I then devised a different formation so I can mix it up, especially if I get injuries to centre backs. this is it,

[/img]

all three play with the same instructions,

[/img]

I am having reasonable success at the moment. on the brink of qualification from a group of death in the champs league consisting of Liverpool, Bayern, Juve and Anderlecht. going nicely in the league.

played 17, scored 36 and conceded 16. is it me being picky or could I tighten up at one end without sacrifices goals at the other. I think that's quite a nice balance.

I think I need to understand the dynamics of the tactics creator before I delve into defensive football again. for now im enjoying playing the game again and that out ways my urge to develop a defensive tactic.

the HandofGod series Cleon is republishing at the moment is tremendous stuff.

yes I did it, qualified from Champs league group on top of group on 13pts level with Juve. Peps been sacked.

Bayern played 4-4-1-1 and I lined up 4-3-2-1WB. I got an early penalty (not complaining this time) and then Bayern switched to a 3-4-1-2Flat in the second half and pushed right up to start really dominating the game. I noticed that Bayerns wide midfielders were not getting back to help the back 3 so I switched to my 3-4-3WB and dropped the push higher and close down shouts for drop deeper and pass into space. Balotelli smashed two second half goals to give me a 3-0 away win. my 3 forwards pulled the 3 man defence apart.

I might actually be able to see some light at the end of the tunnel, or its Balotellis bathroom on fire in the distance I can see!

I forgot to ask if anyone can see a way of improving the front three in the 4-1-2-2-1 formation or any feedback would be welcome.

I think I will have to scrap the 3421 343 adventure. I don't create any CCC's in any game so its just a matter of time before I concede. just happened against Southampton, 10 shots on goal with 2 on target. 8 long shots. I played 343 against the saints 4411. saints had 2 shots, 1 CCC and won the game 1-0.

[/img]

[/img]

[/img]

This thread's become a bit rambling, with tactics and saves chucked the moment things become too difficult. Going to be impossible to help unless you have a clear vision of how you want to play and are prepared to work on it.

Going to close it, but would be happy to support a new thread if you want to put the effort in.