Help with 4-3-2-1 formation

Having thought i'd cracked it and gained some tactical insight i am really struggling to make my tactic work for me. In my first season it seemed to work well, although i was aware that there were some short comings, particularly against counter attacking teams. I managed to come second in the PL in my first season, putting together some really pleasing runs of form. My second season started well but i'm now finding i'm being completely overrun, not retaining possession and not creating as many clear cut chances. I would add that i am playing as Man Utd (i've only started playing again so needed to give myself an easy challenge to start with).

My formation is as follows:

----------------GK---------------

FB(S)---CB(D)---CB(D)---FB(S)

WM(S)------CM(D)--------W(A)

--------SS(A)----APM(A)-------

--------------DLF(A)------------

Injuries aside my usuaul team will be:

De Gea (GK)

Rafael (FB)

Evra (FB)

Lovren (CB)

Jones (CB)

Matic/Carrick (CM)

Nani (WM)

De Maria (W)

Rooney (SS)

Mata (APM)

Van Persie (DLF)

Team instructions:

Rigid

Control

No individual instructions

Now, the reason for choosing this formation was to accomodate my front three together as well as make use of the squad i had (too many AM's, not enough CM's of quality). I had thought that going rigid would help the team keep its defensive shape, particularly as i perceive this to be quite an attacking formation. I am aware that going forward i'm leaving my back four exposed however this has only happend in Europe or vs. counter attacking PL teams. I've not used any PI's as i wanted to keep it simple - i dont have a complete understanding as to how they affect the overall mentality of my team.

Please can someone look at this and tell me (a) is this just all wrong? (b) are there any glaring ommissions/errors etc?

Only briefly looked over this, about to run out the house and head into work, but you've probably got too many players in the final third on attack duties - there's no creator among the central three. Also, there aren't any team instructions beyond Rigid and Control?

Defensively in the centre it looks pretty solid, your CM (D) will sit in front of the defence to mop up any long-ish balls. However he may be finding himself isolated as your two AMC strata players are further up the pitch with the DLF, and the winger out wide. What sort of goals are your conceding? Looking briefly at it, it would seem your formation when in-game might actually look more like this:

----------------GK---------------

----------CB(D)---CB(D)----------

FB&WM(S)------CM(D)--------FB(S)

------------APM(A)-----W(A)-

---------SS(A)---DLF(A)-----------

Admittedly I could fit in an extra line between the DLF/SS combo and the APM. But as you can see, as your FBs push up slightly (especially on the right side) there are holes for any AML/R to exploit. For one of your more... frustrating games (one which you should have won but got caught out on the counter and lost by a few) - check out the analysis tab and the player average positions. That might give you some idea into what the team looks like during the match.

Hopefully that makes some sense

Thanks for your quick reply and that makes sense - i'm afraid i'm not much of a tactician so whilst your explanation sounds simple, you putting it into idiot speak has helped a lot. It does feel like I concede a lot of goals to counter attacks as well as simply being over run. Looking at the above i can see why.

You are correct, i have no TI's at all. Your evident surprise makes me feel like i'm really missing a trick here?

I'm assuming switiching my APM to support, dropping him deeper is the most obvious step? This will be Mata who ideally i want to be my creative link between midfield and attack.

Dealing with the wide areas is really causing me a quandry. My first thought was to drop my FB's to defence duties to keep the back four flat and solid. That then leaves me with a problem. My right mid seems to be wide enough for my liking but it leaves a hole on the left as my winger will drift inside (not a bad thing per se I suppose as that's Di Maria). Will that be a problem?

Would it make more sense to make my CM(d) a DLP? I'm assuming then he'll link def to mid and my AP can link mid to attack?

Finally, if anyone can suggest any TI's, please do enlighten me.

Sorry just got back from work so have only just had a read through of what you've put - glad some of it was of use! Yeah looking at the formation, if I was to personally play against a set-up like that, I would launch my wing-backs forward to join with any wide men, them starting deep, and have them run into the space on the sides before drilling the ball into the middle. I'm not sure if that's the type of goal you're seeing your United team typically concede, but that's what I'd do

I think having the AP in the AMC strata on support might help but is Mata able to play well beside the CM (D)? I'm not sure what his familiarity is for playing in the centre of midfield position (and don't have FM open at the moment) - if not try keeping him up there but on support, dropping deeper as well. The problem you've got at the moment is that you have a lot of men up top, but not many in the middle to start the chances. Perhaps a solution to this is to have either Nani or Di Maria to sit narrower to collect the ball off the CM (D) to have him hoofing it up long?

Also I'd avoid setting a full back line as (D) instructions - you'd get very little movement between the lines. Maybe Nani to sit narrower and the FB behind him on attack duty to create overlaps and stretch their play.

Again, also, I've not tried having no Team Instructions before so can't really comment on if this is useful or not - but it means your players will do only what their role states. I'd suggest some sort of direct play, focus down the middle. But this is dependant on the style of football you want to play.

Finally, if you haven't already, I recommend the following article on FM14 by one of the mods here: Pairs & Combinations - The Complete Series

Wonderful resource that explains several set-ups. I know, I know, reading is boring but trust me. Worth it!

Now, the reason for choosing this formation was to accomodate my front three together as well as make use of the squad i had (too many AM's, not enough CM's of quality). I had thought that going rigid would help the team keep its defensive shape, particularly as i perceive this to be quite an attacking formation. I am aware that going forward i'm leaving my back four exposed however this has only happend in Europe or vs. counter attacking PL teams. I've not used any PI's as i wanted to keep it simple - i dont have a complete understanding as to how they affect the overall mentality of my team.

Please can someone look at this and tell me (a) is this just all wrong? (b) are there any glaring ommissions/errors etc?

Firstly rigidity doesn't make your team defend more disciplined or make your team more defensive. You were right in that your tactic is a bit unbalanced and biased towards attacking but rigidity doesn't remedy this. In fact it makes matters worse. Playing more rigid has players more focused on their task and adhere more strictly to their role/duty. Your tactic has a lot of attacking players and playing more rigid will actually make them defend less and increase their mentality as they focus on their task of scoring or creating goals.

Secondly not having any team instructions is completely fine. Team instructions should only be used if you want to achieve something besides the standard. It's how you put a certain style or stamp on a team, they are in no way necessary.

On to the role duty setup: You are basically playing a 4-3-3 with your outside center midfielders pushed to the flanks. I'd imagine this leads to some pretty suspect defending in the center if you AM's don't track back consistently. I would personally choose to either play lower quality players to have an extra man in the center or play a 3 man defense and have the fullbacks join the attack as wingbacks or complete wingbacks. Another option is to switch to a 4-4-1-1 and have the AP play from CM.

I would personally try to cram the team into my current favourite 4-1-4-1 formation like this:

De Gea (SK,d)

Rafael (FB,s)

Evra (WB,a)

Lovren (CB)

Jones (CB)

Matic/Carrick (DM)

Nani (WM,a, dribble more, more attacking)

Rooney (MC,a)

Mata (MC,s)

Di Maria (WM,a, sit narrow, more attacking)

Van Persie (CF,s, roam, move into channels)

Probably not the best solution but it's what I would do. Alternatively I would try Van Gaals 5,2,1,2 with attacking wingbacks.

Guys - thank's so much for your help.

David - i discovered that document yesterday afternoon on another thread and i'm not sure how i managed without it! i've read all of the threads on here (which are brilliant) but that puts it all together into something i can understand. I did try Mata in the AP(s) role but to be honest he ended up just linking play and not creating chances and scoring goals as i'd like him to.

Marsupian - you are 100% correct in your analysis of my shortcomings. A lot of goals are being shipped via the centre of the park.

In all honesty i think i'm going to ditch this formation. I can probably just about stretch my squad to play a 4-2-3-1 or a 4-1-4-1 formation which i think would provide loads more balance. I have to play Mata and Di Maria as these two, in my opinion, are my best players. With VP and Rooney also in the mix i'm going to need something that protects my back four adequately so i reckon playing Carrick/Matic and Powell together as a DLP and Box to Box midfielders should work. My only problem is i'm so thin on the ground in CM. I sold Fletcher, Cleverley and Anderson in my haste to reshape the team.

Thanks again for your help. Whilst ditching this tactic isnt the outcome i was expecting i think it's for the best. You've also both helped me to understand the tactical side of this game just a bit more, which is great!

That's quite alright and glad you've at least learnt something from the experience! Seems you're suffering from the same thing that United and Van Gaal are at the moment - so at least you aren't alone

Also I know that feeling of just tearing it all up and starting again all too well. A 4-2-3-1 is a good start - the only thing to watch out for if you are playing with an AML/R is that you might be weaker on the flanks. It's all about balance, having the right A/S/D combinations and roles - it takes time but when it works. You get to sit and watch your team rip apart Arsenal 8-2

The frustrating thing is it worked so well in my first season. I only lost the title on the last day of the season, although i did struggle in Europe. I can only suspect that the European AI managers use different tactics to their English counterparts.

4-2-3-1 seems to be the go to formation for a lot of people but that's perhaps because of the guide you pointed me in the direction of. The guy who wrote that seems to have a similar set of players to me in his Arsenal squad so it could be an ideal starting point. Having said that i really don't want to copy people as you don't learn anything that way! Plus, its much more satisfying when it does eventually come off.

Second season syndrome, SSS, is a nuisance to overcome as the AI works out and evolves from your tactic, finding out it's weaknesses and looking to exploit them to irritating effect. Pretty much what's happening at Liverpool at the moment

Yeah on this forum seems there are a lot of 4-2-3-1 formations and, it seems, they are hard to balance up due to the defensive positioning of your midfield wide players. Good luck with your next tactic, sure there will be others willing to help again should you need it!

Second season syndrome, SSS, is a nuisance to overcome as the AI works out and evolves from your tactic, finding out it's weaknesses and looking to exploit them to irritating effect. Pretty much what's happening at Liverpool at the moment

Yeah on this forum seems there are a lot of 4-2-3-1 formations and, it seems, they are hard to balance up due to the defensive positioning of your midfield wide players. Good luck with your next tactic, sure there will be others willing to help again should you need it!

Nah they're just adjusting like after Suarez.

The issue with the wide players is the reason I moved them back to WMs and I've been using a 4411 and a 451 ever since.

Second season syndrome, SSS, is a nuisance to overcome as the AI works out and evolves from your tactic, finding out it's weaknesses and looking to exploit them to irritating effect. Pretty much what's happening at Liverpool at the moment

Yeah on this forum seems there are a lot of 4-2-3-1 formations and, it seems, they are hard to balance up due to the defensive positioning of your midfield wide players. Good luck with your next tactic, sure there will be others willing to help again should you need it!

The AI doesn't "work out" your tactic. What does happen is your reputation changes which can lead to teams approaching you differently. There are also other factors like luck, players getting a little complacent after a good season etc.

The AI doesn't just learn your tactic and then uses one that completely counters it. The AI has it's own playing style and depending on the opposition they face they adapt more defensively or aggressively depending on the managers preference.