My Quest for Premier League Football

I decided to start a save with my home town club Swindon Town who are in League One. My aim is to get them promoted to the Premier League.

Here is my main tactic/formation:

I also have a second tactic:

This is used when I think I am going to lose a game or needing to hold on to a lead.

Using this set up got us promoted to the Championship.

Now we're in the Championship, we're doing ok but lacking a bit of consistency.

This is where I need some advice/help. What I'd like to do is take a leaf from cleon's book and give you some analysis of games in the hope of getting feedback. I would also like to give you some PKM's.

My next game is against Reading. They are top of the table so this is going to be a tricky game.

I decided to go with my counter tactic. This is because they are the stronger side and use my main tactical shape.

At half time we are being completely outplayed. 3-0 down!

Swindon stats

Reading stats

We were battered.

Swindon stats.

Reading stats.

https://www.sendspace.com/file/6itoks

I would really appreciate if people could take a look at this PKM and give me advice

Any regrets about going with shorter passing with the counter tactic? From the stats it looks like bypassing their CMs would have been a good idea.

Any regrets about going with shorter passing with the counter tactic? From the stats it looks like bypassing their CMs would have been a good idea.

Would you have gone more direct?

Would you have gone more direct?

And is that because there was a lot of passes made within their CM's?

Would you have gone more direct?

That's a tough call, I'm not sure going direct as a team would have helped, it looks like your back line was under a lot of pressure and spent most of the first half just trying to clear the ball. I haven't seen your game but going by the halftime stats I probably would have set one or two guys to pass direct...definitely Byrne and then maybe one of the DMs. Williams and Karacan were dominating so you had to get around them somehow.

This is just my preference but I don't usually hassle opponents when using a counter mentality especially with a deeper line, asking them to drop closer to the goal but then chase people seems like asking for trouble to me.

And is that because there was a lot of passes made within their CM's?

They were able to do that because the CMs were getting the ball back and then sending it up to Holt who then either played it back to them or kicked it out to their right winger who then spent the entire first half abusing your left back. Once John had the ball the other AMs were pressuring your back line. The only reason they were able to do that was because the CMs were winning the ball back either by tackling or intercepting.

If Byrne had been able to get the ball up to the AM-S on a semi-regular basis then maybe Reading backs off and then you can go direct as a team.

That's a tough call, I'm not sure going direct as a team would have helped, it looks like your back line was under a lot of pressure and spent most of the first half just trying to clear the ball. I haven't seen your game but going by the halftime stats I probably would have set one or two guys to pass direct...definitely Byrne and then maybe one of the DMs. Williams and Karacan were dominating so you had to get around them somehow.

This is just my preference but I don't usually hassle opponents when using a counter mentality especially with a deeper line, asking them to drop closer to the goal but then chase people seems like asking for trouble to me.

OK thanks for the advice.

Can I ask why you would chose those players?

Here is my next game:

As I am at home I decided to go for my main tactic.

Match stats.

OK thanks for the advice.

Can I ask why you would chose those players?

You're welcome but it give it time, you'll probably get better advice. I went with the assumption that you wanted to stay with your basic set up but your fullbacks had to have had a lot of space that could have been exploited.

I chose Byrne because he played on the same side as the AP-S and your CDs appear to been under a lot of pressure so who else is going to make that pass? Maybe use one of the DMs if the AI starts to close down Byrne.

Swindon stats.

Doncaster stats.

As Brown was having a lot of the ball, I asked my CM-D to mark him and I closed him down. Not sure it had the impact I wanted. I would've liked more of the ball.

You're welcome but it give it time, you'll probably get better advice. I went with the assumption that you wanted to stay with your basic set up but your fullbacks had to have had a lot of space that could have been exploited.

I chose Byrne because he played on the same side as the AP-S and your CDs appear to been under a lot of pressure so who else is going to make that pass? Maybe use one of the DMs if the AI starts to close down Byrne.

OK I understand. These are the things I need to learn

Next up Wolves. They were also playing 4-4-2. I decided to go with my counter tactic but I dropped short passing and hassle opponent.

Swindon stats.

Wolves stats.

As CM's are having a lot of the ball, I asked my left back to play more direct I also asked my MC-Support to play more direct.

I usually play the same formation, control along with pushing gets most of our players playing on their midfield, which makes this formation vunerable to quick counter attacks, good ball control and holding possession can work but losing that possession usually punishes you, which is hard at top teams and its even worse at lower teams. With that in mind unless you have really good technical players, short passing plus slower tempo you are probably losing the ball too often as with this formation we also don't have a lot of space to create.

My advices would be to remove both of those and also get stuck in, that might lead to silly red cards on their counter attacks and players getting out of position, stay on feet might be a better option. To make sure the opponents has less space possible to play i'd push even higher, this won't help you creating more chances i'm afraid as there will be even less space but it will make their counters less deadly. I'd also consider switching the BBM to a more conservative role like DLP/S as i think it would give you a more consistent and creative midfield.

I usually play the same formation, control along with pushing gets most of our players playing on their midfield, which makes this formation vunerable to quick counter attacks, good ball control and holding possession can work but losing that possession usually punishes you, which is hard at top teams and its even worse at lower teams. With that in mind unless you have really good technical players, short passing plus slower tempo you are probably losing the ball too often as with this formation we also don't have a lot of space to create.

My advices would be to remove both of those and also get stuck in, that might lead to silly red cards on their counter attacks and players getting out of position, stay on feet might be a better option. To make sure the opponents has less space possible to play i'd push even higher, this won't help you creating more chances i'm afraid as there will be even less space but it will make their counters less deadly. I'd also consider switching the BBM to a more conservative role like DLP/S as i think it would give you a more consistent and creative midfield.

You are spot on with losing the ball. I will give your advice a go thank you.

Does anyone have any advice for when your opponents wingers or wide men have a lot of the ball in a 4-4-2 formation?

For me, a weakness in both systems is the use of AML/R players.

It's something which has been debated endlessly, but it is a fact that ML/R stationed players track back better and therefore offer more defensive solidity.

In your systems, you could achieve much the same offensive threat using ML/R players and would just need to modify a Wide Midfielder to best represent the AP Role you use at AML/R.

I'll watch the Reading vs. Swindon .pkm in a moment, but will make the following assumptions before doing so, based on the scoreline and the stats you posted:

Your deeper 4-2-3-1 lacks an obvious passing outlet for the DMs. It makes sense to have the Anchor on the side of the WB (A), but his passing may be too limited to find the AP and Shorter Passing may further inhibit that as a passing option.

Two DMs will actually drop your defensive line and saying Drop Deeper in a Mentality with a deep line will increase that gap from the DMs to the AM line - I expect to see separation there. To be so deep, and then to layer on Hassle Opponents is likely to see players moving in odd ways when defending.

Reading are top of the league and with your shape and N'Guessan and Peterson not likely to track back, I expect John and Robson-Kanu to cause a fair amount of trouble.

At the end of the first half, they dominate everywhere because your shape invites pressure and your instructions are also a bit restrictive. Their shots on target seem good and with just one long shot from 16, they probably made good chances too. Their pass completion is high, which implies they had time and space to play, whereas your pass completion is low, which will reflect the paucity of passing options available for your DMs and defence.

Karacan will be their playmaker and John is probably a winger as he's completing several Runs With Ball. All of their front three score, so they have a variety of play that you can't match. I'll assume all goals are from open play with no defenders on the scoresheet. The second half seems to continue along the same lines - did you change much?

Now I'll actually watch the game and just detail why the goals conceded happened

1st Goal. Near post corner. Pogrebnyak is a big, strong guy and nobody is picking him up, so it looks like you have guys on the post but no specific marking instructions? If you do, they haven't been stuck to! I can live with this, it happens.

2nd Goal. Foderingham plays it long when all your back four is available. Any PIs for the keeper? If he was set to distribute to defenders, you mightn't have conceded this. Now, it is clear that Williams is a CM (D) and Karacan a DLP (S) or AP (S). This creates numeric supremacy as Karacan, Holt and Pogrebnyak (dropping deep) outnumber your DMs. You're not helped by Byrne stepping up, which allows Holt to exploit that channel of space and John to finish well. Possibly caused by Hassle Opponents but more likely Byrne's attributes - is he a good defender? This one is annoying.

3rd Goal. A very good goal from Reading, though Byrne again has to be questioned. Is he the weak link? Look at the space John is in when he receives the ball - no tracking back from the AML. This goal comes from a combination of Byrne's defensive efforts, but also the speed at which Reading move the ball. They move it from left to right quite quickly, and the space in your left full back area is open for John as a result (as Swindon have shifted over to the right). I believe no use of Hassle Opponents and a ML/R combination would have reduced the likelihood of this going in.

4th Goal. Byrne culpable again? However, I think this is slightly buggy. For me, the right back should be marking the near post for the corner rather than the far. It takes him too long to get back across and so Robson-Kanu has time to pick him spot.

5th Goal. This is just about the gulf in quality. Reading break very quickly from your corner and have numbers in support to offer options when moving the ball.

I think the 4th goal is possibly a ME issue, the rest point at Byrne's ability or your shape. Personally, I'd have gone with a 4-1-4-1 and an unmodified Counter Mentality. I still don't know what Byrne is like, but I'd consider giving him a Support Duty as he doesn't look great defensively, so I'd try to aid his positioning by keeping him deeper.

Daleuk8 - must say that RTH has got it spot on regarding use of AML & AMR players. Dropping these back will help defensively.

For me, a weakness in both systems is the use of AML/R players.

It's something which has been debated endlessly, but it is a fact that ML/R stationed players track back better and therefore offer more defensive solidity.

In your systems, you could achieve much the same offensive threat using ML/R players and would just need to modify a Wide Midfielder to best represent the AP Role you use at AML/R.

I'll watch the Reading vs. Swindon .pkm in a moment, but will make the following assumptions before doing so, based on the scoreline and the stats you posted:

Your deeper 4-2-3-1 lacks an obvious passing outlet for the DMs. It makes sense to have the Anchor on the side of the WB (A), but his passing may be too limited to find the AP and Shorter Passing may further inhibit that as a passing option.

Two DMs will actually drop your defensive line and saying Drop Deeper in a Mentality with a deep line will increase that gap from the DMs to the AM line - I expect to see separation there. To be so deep, and then to layer on Hassle Opponents is likely to see players moving in odd ways when defending.

Reading are top of the league and with your shape and N'Guessan and Peterson not likely to track back, I expect John and Robson-Kanu to cause a fair amount of trouble.

At the end of the first half, they dominate everywhere because your shape invites pressure and your instructions are also a bit restrictive. Their shots on target seem good and with just one long shot from 16, they probably made good chances too. Their pass completion is high, which implies they had time and space to play, whereas your pass completion is low, which will reflect the paucity of passing options available for your DMs and defence.

Karacan will be their playmaker and John is probably a winger as he's completing several Runs With Ball. All of their front three score, so they have a variety of play that you can't match. I'll assume all goals are from open play with no defenders on the scoresheet. The second half seems to continue along the same lines - did you change much?

Now I'll actually watch the game and just detail why the goals conceded happened

1st Goal. Near post corner. Pogrebnyak is a big, strong guy and nobody is picking him up, so it looks like you have guys on the post but no specific marking instructions? If you do, they haven't been stuck to! I can live with this, it happens.

2nd Goal. Foderingham plays it long when all your back four is available. Any PIs for the keeper? If he was set to distribute to defenders, you mightn't have conceded this. Now, it is clear that Williams is a CM (D) and Karacan a DLP (S) or AP (S). This creates numeric supremacy as Karacan, Holt and Pogrebnyak (dropping deep) outnumber your DMs. You're not helped by Byrne stepping up, which allows Holt to exploit that channel of space and John to finish well. Possibly caused by Hassle Opponents but more likely Byrne's attributes - is he a good defender? This one is annoying.

3rd Goal. A very good goal from Reading, though Byrne again has to be questioned. Is he the weak link? Look at the space John is in when he receives the ball - no tracking back from the AML. This goal comes from a combination of Byrne's defensive efforts, but also the speed at which Reading move the ball. They move it from left to right quite quickly, and the space in your left full back area is open for John as a result (as Swindon have shifted over to the right). I believe no use of Hassle Opponents and a ML/R combination would have reduced the likelihood of this going in.

4th Goal. Byrne culpable again? However, I think this is slightly buggy. For me, the right back should be marking the near post for the corner rather than the far. It takes him too long to get back across and so Robson-Kanu has time to pick him spot.

5th Goal. This is just about the gulf in quality. Reading break very quickly from your corner and have numbers in support to offer options when moving the ball.

I think the 4th goal is possibly a ME issue, the rest point at Byrne's ability or your shape. Personally, I'd have gone with a 4-1-4-1 and an unmodified Counter Mentality. I still don't know what Byrne is like, but I'd consider giving him a Support Duty as he doesn't look great defensively, so I'd try to aid his positioning by keeping him deeper.

Thank you for your reply. Gives me a bit to look at.

I did change to an attacking mentality at half time with direct passing.

So you'd suggest moving my wide men to MR/ML? Can I ask what instructions you'd give one to make it an A/P?

Here is Byrne

Look at a Wide Midfielder and think about the sort of PIs he'd need. They're fairly tweakable, so depending on the Duty you choose can be asked to Play More Risky Passes, Short Passes, Dribble More etc. etc.

Byrne is a better than I expected in some regards, but his marking and decisions hinder him and that jumping reach and strength partly explain why big Pavel gave him so much trouble.

RTH is right, it's one of the reasons some people ask on how to deal with klopp's dortmund 4-4-1-1 it acts like the formation with 3 AM's but its more viable holding the ball and defending the flanks. Although the single problem i've had so far with the regular 4-2-3-1 formation is getting the striker to score more, lately i think i've manage to fix that with better movement on the mid trio, hey it only took me 11 seasons to get it perfectly right! i'm quite happy with it tho' defensively, i'm on 2022 and my worst season was my second with 35 goals conceded, i've been conceding in average between 10-15 a season, although i sacrifice a lot of space in the front pressuring like dogs after a bone.

I'd be happy to share mine but with all the detail on your posts i think you'll be happy to find your own way, by your own mistakes rather than just copy stuff, and i praise you for that and best luck!

Look at a Wide Midfielder and think about the sort of PIs he'd need. They're fairly tweakable, so depending on the Duty you choose can be asked to Play More Risky Passes, Short Passes, Dribble More etc. etc.

Byrne is a better than I expected in some regards, but his marking and decisions hinder him and that jumping reach and strength partly explain why big Pavel gave him so much trouble.

OK Giving things a go now. What advice would you give about changing passing length for players when the opposition CM's are all over you?

RTH is right, it's one of the reasons some people ask on how to deal with klopp's dortmund 4-4-1-1 it acts like the formation with 3 AM's but its more viable holding the ball and defending the flanks. Although the single problem i've had so far with the regular 4-2-3-1 formation is getting the striker to score more, lately i think i've manage to fix that with better movement on the mid trio, hey it only took me 11 seasons to get it perfectly right! i'm quite happy with it tho' defensively, i'm on 2022 and my worst season was my second with 35 goals conceded, i've been conceding in average between 10-15 a season, although i sacrifice a lot of space in the front pressuring like dogs after a bone.

I'd be happy to share mine but with all the detail on your posts i think you'll be happy to find your own way, by your own mistakes rather than just copy stuff, and i praise you for that and best luck!

So you use a regular 4-2-3-1 then? No I don't like to copy things but I do like to know what other gamers do. Always good to get conversation going:) So if you'd like to share please do.

Daleuk8 - must say that RTH has got it spot on regarding use of AML & AMR players. Dropping these back will help defensively.

Thank you. Will give things ago now. Will post my ideas and settings to get advice.

Here are my settings for my A/P settings:

Would you have a W/M on the other side? Or Winger?

Here is my new Counter setup:

Just got a thrashing by Q.P.R. Please could someone help? I started the game with my new counter system. At half time I pushed my MC's up.

Q.P.R. Stats.

Swindon Stats.

https://www.sendspace.com/file/37w521

Here is the PKM

OK, I'll have a look at this one too.

Before doing so, can I ask why you persist with the 2 DM system? Do you think it will make you more solid centrally?

My view (before watching the match) is that sitting deep with two DMs can cause you a lot of problems. If you think about it, you're effectively allowing the opposition midfield to have the ball, take their time and pick a pass to their more attack focused colleagues further up the pitch.

Onto the match - again I'll focus on the goals conceded:

Of note is that QPR played 4-4-2 against your deep 4-2-3-1. This means your DMs are deep for no real reason - there is no AM permanently between your DC and MC lines, so the choice of formation is not great here. 4-1-4-1 or even 4-4-1-1 would have been more suitable.

Before kicking off, I expect that O'Neil and Faurlin have plenty of time on the ball - Faurlin's stats imply that to be the case and hint that he is the primary playmaker.

What is sure is that it won't be the pair of them who link play to the front line. One will be more ambitious but definitely not the two - again this reiterates what I feel was an overly negative shape used.

Goal One. Mattock hits a painful long pass which is intercepted. Your initial reaction could have been "Why the Hell has he made THAT pass?!", but if you watch it back, you'll see that only Coady and Archibald-Henville are free, and Coady has Watt relatively close. This could have been averted using a 4-4-1-1 as if Coady were 15 yards further forward, Watt would be pushed back.....As it is, look at the space the Q.P.R. MCs have. Luongo and Coady are just too deep - you have six in the box covering their 3 players, which means they have a 3 man advantage outside the box. This allows them to move the ball around and ultimately score. I can tell already this will be the theme of the match.

Goal Two. Brilliant free kick from Faurlin.

Goal Three. Near post corner. As with the last match I viewed, this is an issue for you. What is your defensive corner set up? Also check the attributes of the goal scorer and the guys in and around him for Swindon.

Goal Four. A bit like the breakaway goal from the last match I watched. Q.P.R. counter quite brilliantly when your throw in breaks down. Main issue is that Luongo goes up for the throw which has the knock on effect of leaving space on that side, which Q.P.R. attack ruthlessly. Great goal with the only question being why Luongo is up for the throw - review your set pieces.

Goal Five. Bad from Peterson. He receives the ball facing out of play and by the time he gets his feet sorted, the R's have nicked the ball. Luongo is very high here (still a DM (S)?). It's a tidyish attack from Q.P.R. and I wouldn't be too despondent. Look at the relative attributes of the scorer and the DC to see if there are any clues.

Goal Six. A really good example of the problems your shape causes you. The R's win possession from poor Mason, because all your players have to run from behind the ball to give him a passing option. With players in place earlier, you create those passing options and naturally force the AI to reconsider their positioning. Mason is clobbered by the not shy Barton, and Q.P.R. score a well worked goal.

My suggestion? Forget a 2 DM system. It is clearly inviting too much pressure and you need simple passing options. As stated before, I think you need to use a 4-1-4-1 as your base shape and flit between that and a 4-4-1-1 for games against 4-4-2's when you feel you are the stronger side.

Sorry for bombing the thread, but I see RTH mentioned 4141 several times and I've been wanting to use that shape, but without much success.

Something like this:

GK

FBa CDd CDd FBs

DMd

WMs CMa CMs WMa

DLFs

...but it's not very effective, it's difficult to build up in the final third, WM players are rather ineffective and out of dangerous positions and, regardless of whether I play on Counter or Control, the players seem to get the ball to DLF very quickly and then he has too much trouble keeping it because others don't join him in the dangerous areas quickly enough.

What's the problem?

So you use a regular 4-2-3-1 then? No I don't like to copy things but I do like to know what other gamers do. Always good to get conversation going:) So if you'd like to share please do.

Yes, regular 4-2-3-1, after about 5-6 seasons i've came to the forums to get some advice from llama as strikers wouldn't score as much as i'd like, problem was never scoring but strikers not scoring enough, i have now lately sacrificed a bit of movement in the front lines switching my AP to support in order to him not steal my striker so much, it's pretty much my last goal on this year's version to get a striker with at least 25-30 goals on the league (i don't think i'll be able to ). My defense is based on pressure and quick pacey defenders instead of regular tall slow ones, any CB with less than 14-15 acceleration is a no-no to me. Obviously as i've said before my attack never has much space to create due to this high pressure but yet i'm quite happy as things are going, while attacking the tactic kinda becomes a 4-1-4AM-1 having both playmakers behind the striker, it's not really an hard save to play to be fair as after winning the champions on my 2nd season with Bayern, from then on i was swimming with money every season, so i can't really say it's near as challenging as your save, and if you give it a shot please let me know how it goes cuz like i've stated before i think the regular 4-2-3-1 is a tactic not quite made for a lower side. Some screenshots.

The formation - Only change i sometimes do during matches is play wider whenever needed, i also use an inverted version of that which leads me to a question perhaps you guys could help, is it bad to rotate a whole team every game? As far as player's motivation and whatever else that makes them tick?

The only personal instructions i use are :

GK : distribute to defenders

LFB : cross more often

AP : roam, press more

IF/A : shoot less, i want him to be more selective

W : more direct passing

When they actually take advantage of the ccc's

When they don't, not that they had many this game to be fair

My best season as far as goals scored and conceded

Current season

Some heatmap that obviously shows the vunerability of this tactic to quick counters, this is manageable with quick defenders, holding possession and the very high pressure

Shots, striker went quite shooty this game

CCC's

Stats

The pressure, as soon as player gets the ball my striker along with the AMC and AMR on this case pressure him hard not giving him any chances to move, on this play he passes the ball to the next defender getting pressed again asap who passes to nº25 who tries under pressure to pass to nº6, ball gets intercepted by my fullback and the 'threat' is eliminated.

Quite happy with how everything is going and can only hope i can keep myself as entertained on the next FM as i am with this one now ^^

Counter Shape.

Control Shape.

A/P Instructions.

Set Piece Instructions.

Could people give me advice on these instructions?

With the 4-1-4-1, watch and see how the midfield operates. If you don't have enough players in support of the striker, reconsider how you are set up centrally in particular.

The 4-4-1-1 has Play Out Of Defence, which won't really be needed with that Mentality where the defence will play a shortish pass anyway.

In general, the set up is aggressive with a high line and Offside Trap. The high line can help bridge the DC : MC gap but keep an eye on the Offside Trap. It can work well, but can also cause more problems than it solves.

In general terms, these tactics a far better balanced than the earlier ones and I hope you see improvements.

At set pieces, why have you committed three men forward? Watch a real match at any level and look to see how the attacking team commit men forward and how the defending team lines up.

With the 4-1-4-1, watch and see how the midfield operates. If you don't have enough players in support of the striker, reconsider how you are set up centrally in particular.

The 4-4-1-1 has Play Out Of Defence, which won't really be needed with that Mentality where the defence will play a shortish pass anyway.

In general, the set up is aggressive with a high line and Offside Trap. The high line can help bridge the DC : MC gap but keep an eye on the Offside Trap. It can work well, but can also cause more problems than it solves.

In general terms, these tactics a far better balanced than the earlier ones and I hope you see improvements.

At set pieces, why have you committed three men forward? Watch a real match at any level and look to see how the attacking team commit men forward and how the defending team lines up.

OK I will give things a go when I get some time. I will let you know how I get on. Regards to the offside trap , it was just something I read from LLAMA's thread.

Can I ask, how passing lengths are in mentalities? I.E. Are they shorter in more attacking formations? or defensive formations?

Can I ask, how passing lengths are in mentalities? I.E. Are they shorter in more attacking formations? or defensive formations?

Defensive Mentalities have more direct passing at the back (to get the ball clear from danger) and shorter passing with Attack Duties.

Standard is neutral.

Attacking sees shorter passing with the Defend Duties and more direct with the Attack Duties.

Playmakers are on Mixed passing irrespective of Mentality - until you start layering on TIs and / or PIs.

Defensive Mentalities have more direct passing at the back (to get the ball clear from danger) and shorter passing with Attack Duties.

Standard is neutral.

Attacking sees shorter passing with the Defend Duties and more direct with the Attack Duties.

Playmakers are on Mixed passing irrespective of Mentality - until you start layering on TIs and / or PIs.

Thanks, I thought it was the other way around

So if I want a possession tactic, do I look at adding shorter passing to defend duties when using a control strategy?

I am still struggling a bit