Ackter's Tactical Challenge 1: ATTAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAACK!

So, thought I'd try something different here.

I'm extending a challenge to all of you tactical forumers as I think it'll be interesting to see all the different approaches and results. What I want you to do is simple: create a successful tactic where every single position on the pitch must be an attack duty. Team instructions, philosophy, player instructions etc can all be whatever you want them to be, but every single player in your team must have an attack duty set.

The obvious exceptions to this rule are the central defenders - as they don't have an attack duty, you may select Stopper instead.

Here is the list of positions that allow an attacking duty:

Sweeper Keeper

Libero

(Central Defender - Stopper)

(Ball Playing Defender - Stopper)

(Limited Defender - Stopper)

Fullback

Wingback

Complete Wingback

Central Midfielder

Advanced Playmaker

Wide Midfielder

Winger

Inside Forward

Wide Target Man

Trequartista

Enganche

Shadow Striker

Deep Lying Forward

Advanced Forward

Target Man

Poacher

Complete Forward

Let's see what you can come up with!

Does that also mean you cannot select any players in the central DM position (as there are no roles which allow attack)

That is correct. There's going to be some major problems getting this to work, which is why I think it'll be interesting to see how people cope.

I've been using this for just over a season;

And this is the league table;

Early experimentation on my part suggests that it's going to be incredibly difficult to keep clean sheets, so this is all going to be Keegan-esque outscoring your opponent.

I've been using this for just over a season;

Do you find the Libero to be too defensive? I'm trying to get mine to sit higher and run further, but he doesn't seem that way inclined.

Do you find the Libero to be too defensive? I'm trying to get mine to sit higher and run further, but he doesn't seem that way inclined.

Lower leagues yeah because they lack the attributes and the PPM's. When I've done it with a top player I can make them more a MC when attacking, chipping in with the odd goal etc.

I'm currently working with Bryan Cristante as my Libero:

and this guy has just requested to be removed from the transfer list so I'll be registering him in January to give him a run there as well:

Neither of them have PPMs, but I'm trying to combat it with individual instructions (run with ball more, get forward wherever possible) and general team instructions (push much higher etc).

I also have Ross Barkley, who I'm so tempted to liberate (see what I did there?) but then I wouldn't have enough quality MCs. The attack movements are all absolutely lovely, but my Libero's positioning is causing me problems.

And my tactical/table info:

Hahahaha! Love the Cleon has a ready-made system for such a challenge sitting in the save files!

Really interesting concept. I have a few ideas that I can think of to try and adapt this kind of a challenge. Use of Philosophy, Strategy, Team Instructions & Player Instructions could all really enhance or placate issues and ideas.

Me and Cleon seem worrying synched. We tend to come up with the same experimentations around about the same time.

I'm still having problems with my Libero, he's playing far too much like a defender for me.

He'll often run up the pitch, but he'll get to the DM position and then backtrack to his usual position. I want him to keep going, all the way to the box.

I dont think this is as impossible as some would think. I would think a defensive mentality, with lots of attacking duty could work given some careful management and the right TI/PI/PPM.

Libero Attack, 2 x CWB Attack an 3 x AMC attack i have been able to work reasonably well (if executed right, i can give your CWB a shed load of chances, i just never mastered getting them to take those chances). Having the 2 MC on attack would present an extra challenge, but with defensive overall mentality you might be able to keep a better shape. Chuck in the odd PPM and it might just work.

Duties are like anything, they are only one part of any system. Same way as you can make any "formation" work (I did a thread where a number of users pretty much proved that) or as Cleon's thread proves, you can make pretty much any mentality work.

You could almost argue that the succesful Barca almost employed this. If you see Busquets as an Attacking Libero rather than a Defensive HB (he did tend to move forward much more than a HB does, albeit in line with the team). The 2 fullbacks are very clearly attacking, Xavi/Iniesta spent most of their time around the edge of the opposition box, and the front 3 (Messi/Villa/Pedro in that season) were clearly attacking.

I don't think this will be impossible at all, the only tough part will be consistently keeping clean sheets.

It's possible to absolutely swamp the opposition with the right combination of roles and duties meaning you'll always score goals, it's just a matter of scoring more.

I that makes a huge assumption that 9 attacking roles must = all out attack. Not at all. Im sure Cleon could chip in, but the Sheff screenshot show equal 3rd best defensive record in the league.

A bit like the thread which disproves that "Defensive" mentality must mean defensive football, i am reasonably confident you could prove that "Attacking duties" need not mean gung ho football.

Just did a quick one match experiment, in my Athletic save. Home game against Levante, who are reasonably near me in the league (if you see my thread, its been a train wreck season). 9 attack duty and 2 stopper. We won 2 v 1 and it was by no means gung ho (the goal i conceded was a 40 yard screamer by the opposition DM. At the time he hit it, i had 8 outfield players between him and the goal.

Worth noting this was with no familiary, and a somewhat thrown together tactic with no PI. Was more a very quick and dirty experiment to see that with 9 attack duties, i could still have players behind the ball when we dont have it. I am sure others could do a far better job than me!

Nah, its that nearly any set up using attacking roles only, especially with stopper DCs, is going to leave a gap either between the defence and midfield, or behind the defence itself. The attacking MCs are always going to sat higher up the pitch, even on Counter, for example.

Counter and high defensive line will remove most of that gap, but then you're wide open at the back.

This experiment seems to be shining a light on sweeper keepers not really being sweepy enough, and liberos being too defensive imo.

Hmmm really? Why is it going to leave a gap. Again im sure Cleon's formation would disprove that. Why would your MC be "sat" higher up the pitch?

To offset it just do what I did in the defensive thread use a lower mentality like defensive with the really attacking roles/duties. It works wonders.

Yup, sorry was kinda the point i was trying to make (albeit i came across a bit facetious) - Duty does not control the defensive shape or the defensive transition shape, on the whole.

You might have some issues on the counter where players get "caught" upfield, but that can also happen with a support duty. Watching the one game i did as an experiment, i didnt have a huge issue with that. Bit of a space issue as my Libero didnt step out, but he wasnt suited to the role at all (his PPM was "come deep to get the ball") and i just chucked him in there for the sake of the game.

Defensive mentality seemed to ensure we were still somewhat solid. There is a lot more to it clearly, but i guess i was challenging the initial assumption that attacking duty cant be defensive in some phases of play.

But then you sacrifice the attacking awesomeness imo.

But then you sacrifice the attacking awesomeness imo.

No no no . You can become even more awesome going forward and can actually be more aggressive where it actually matters in the pitch. Check this out http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/391083-The-School-of-the-Defensive-Arts

Depends on what you define that as. If you mean you might not get 5 v 4 scorelines then indeed.........if you mean you will not be attacking, then i think your maybe wrong, with all due respect.

My unsuited, un-familiar team already look to produce some lovely attacking football in what is now a 2 game test. Second game against Deportivo. 59% possesion, 18shots on goal. Only 2 CCC, but my striker isnt great and my best AMC was unavailable.

I have issues with the 2 x "Stopper" at the back, and not sure it really makes sense in the spirit o what you are trying to "challenge". Its not a particular "attacking" duty, but for me i have 2 slow defenders so it caused the odd issue. Im sure with far more thought i could combat this, maybe a better defender at Libero (have an MC there).

Edit 1 - That should have quoted Ackter's last post

Edit 2 - Cleon said it far better than me again! Same sentiment.

Edit 3 - Quite amusingly, using my Athletico save as a 2 game mess around for this, as i was going to be sacked at the end of the season (these were the last 2 games of the season). Using the "9 attacking" approach we won both games which took us from 8th to 4th, put us in the CL and almost certainly avoided me the sack......all as a result of messing around with your concept!

Oh no, I know you can still attack while playing defensive, (after all, I consider myself a specialist at it ), it's just I don't want to attack, I want to ATTAAAAAAAAACK!

Oh yeah, the reason for the stopper duty is that it has the defenders looking to win back the ball slightly higher up the pitch on a more regular basis than the other duties, therefore I consider it the most attacking of the three defensive duties.

Oh no, I know you can still attack while playing defensive, (after all, I consider myself a specialist at it ), it's just I don't want to attack, I want to ATTAAAAAAAAACK!

Then, with respect, the concept of your challenge is wrong.........

Should be something about trying to win with an "attacking"mentality. Attacking roles does not = ATTTAAAAAACKKKK!

Then there wouldn't be a challenge

Then there wouldn't be a challenge

Ermm..... ok. So for you its more difficult to create a successfully tactic (which is the OP ask) with 9 attack duty, than one with free duty but mandated mentality?

Anyway, i didnt ever wish to criticise, but if i was just challenging your initial assumption that you would struggle defensively.

None the less, fun idea and i might try and sustain the tactic i messed around with.

In terms of the original purpose/question, out of interest below is the shape i ended up trying out:

The roles are fairly self explanatory. A few interesting things i observed over the few games:

- AP(a) comes much deeper than CM(a) it seems, this is inspite of Arteta having "Comes deep to get the ball" and Herrera not. From this, i am deducing that something in the roles means CM(a) is more attacking than AP(a) so i will likely swap the 2 players. I tried to use Arteta to be the one who comes deepest based on his PPM's and some PI.

- Strikerless works well with this (for 30mins i dragged my DF back into an AM(a) and it created even more).

- The SK deffo does not come far enough forward, although my TI might somewhat explain that as we sit deep. But still no Neuer type behaviour.

- Libero is hard to get forward consistently without the right PPM. I bought Javi Vos, a natural DM and competent DC who has "Gets forward" PPM. Meantime as he wasnt fit for this game, for 30mins at the end i also decided to try a novel solution. I asked my Libero to specific man mark the opposition AMC (Valencia against me were 4231 deep). I would need to sample ti more and it wont always be suited, but against a single striker it might work. Kept him in the DM strata, as i had noted the opposing AMC liked to come deep (probably as they had no MC).

Me and Cleon seem worrying synched. We tend to come up with the same experimentations around about the same time.

I'm still having problems with my Libero, he's playing far too much like a defender for me.

He'll often run up the pitch, but he'll get to the DM position and then backtrack to his usual position. I want him to keep going, all the way to the box.

Is buying David Luiz an Option?

That was fun!

I just tried this with on my Palermo save. Second season and promoted to the serie A I played against last place Lanciano (I am 4th after a great start). I normally play a defensive 5-3-2 and the only change I made was dropping my DLP/Regista to the libero position, changed my BBM midfielders to MC(A), changed my CF(S) to trequartista and put my central CD on stopper duty. I lined up with this:

SK(A): Sorrentino

SW(A): Labrin (was too defensive and wasn't in place to recycle possession in the DM area or make any plays happen)

BPD(X): Montoleone (Great prospect, playing regular games this season but still some way to go)

BPD(X): Strandberg (Signed in the first season, solid DC that can play in the midfield which I needed when still using a 4-1-2-1-2 regularly)

BPD(X): Andelkovic (Barely good enough for the first team, only reason he hasn't bee sold is his great personality and playing with 3 DC's)

CWB(A): Garcia

CWB(A): Patric (first season signing from Barcelona B for around 700K, better than injured Morganella at this point)

MC(A): Simon Tibbling (first season signing, still has some way to go but already getting regular games, great technique and stamina)

MC(A): Zuculini (free transfer this season, great workrate, stamina and tackling)

Treq(A): Dybala, the wonderkid with 6 anticipation

CF(A): Hernandez

Defensive, rigid, play out of defense, get stuck in, play wider, exploit the middle.

In the first 50 minutes we scored a goal every 10 minutes (5-0) and they had 1 shot on target. After that massacre of a start they switched some things around and it stayed 5-0. They didn't get a single CC and only a couple more shots on target. Defense was rock solid (6 players behind the ball at all times) and they couldn't handle the amount of players storming into the box. We didn't hold possession well but still got a decent percentage (I think 47%). I think this would work better with a player in the DM position to allow a way to recycle possession and switch play to the other flank. Also a high chance to run into fitness issues if you try to do this with the same players playing most games of the season.

Love the idea of this and will be playing the last league game of my Celtic tenure with it and will continue wherever I end up next season.

I seem to have quite different ideas to what has been mentioned, (so I have a feeling this might not be pretty).

Does it matter what team you use ? i'm a big girls blouse and thought i'd try this with a rubbish team like Barcelona.

I gave this a go quickly with Arsenal, and it earned a well deserved win at Newcastle in its first outing.

I felt obliged to use a Defensive Mentality, but as that isn't the aim of the thread, I'll modify an Attacking Mentality in the next match, away at Craven Cottage against Fulham.

Got away with a 2-0 at Fulham. Changed setup was:

I want to use this in a tough game, because I want it to get battered

Defensive mentality is for wimps

Does it matter what team you use ? i'm a big girls blouse and thought i'd try this with a rubbish team like Barcelona.

Nah, try with whoever you like. The fun is in the tactics.

Im sticking to my defensive mentality, if Ackter didnt want that, he should be more specific in his OP

I removed "work into the box" and a couple of other tiny PI tweaks. Small sample size but so far its 6 wins and a draw from 7 games. Includes 2 very nice wins (home and away) against Napoli in the CL qualifiers. Only team to give me a problem so far was Malaga, who doubled up down left flank with there LB playing very high and attacking. They also played a pressing game which we didnt cope with too well, but still got a fair draw.

PS - Ackter your mentality is only on Control...........get it on ATTTAACCCCCCCCCK then you wimp You talk the talk.............

not being very good at tactics i probably should have stayed away from this thread but then i thought,why not!! im in 3rd season with united so i have a good team. next game home to arsenal i plugged this in

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both goals from corners but still good result!!

sorry guys it seems i dont know how to put screenshots up! any help?

Pah, commentators curse.......Villareal just spanked me. One nil but they had the measure of my system completely.

I was already doing a Barcelona save and just about to go into season 2 pre-season, so i modified my 3-6-1 formation and came up with this.

http://i60.tinypic.com/20j0oys.png[/img]"]

Player Instructions are very minimal, some default. Not sure what to expect but did great the previous season with this formation so hopefully do just as good, we shall see

P.S i like these kind of challenges, i think it was Crouchy who used to do them a few years back on the Forum, always good to try out new ways to play.

EDIT: Image looks small, roles are

CB's - 2xCD(S) 1xBPD(S)

Mid's - 2xWM 2xAP

Att Mid - 2xAM

FWD - DLF

Team instructions. Balanced/Control - Shouts Retain poss/pass shorter/pass into space/work into box/play out of def/push up higher/hassle/tight mark/lower tempo/more expressive.

Infract me for all the edits

So this is my penultimate game in charge of Celtic so with the League already won it seemed the perfect opportunity to give this a go.

For ages I have wanted to play with some sort of 3/5 at the back but have never got around to it. I have already decided that wherever I do go next season, a sweeper/libero/back3 of some sort will be my stock tactic. The more defensive of my current 2 tactics sees me use a Regista at the moment and it's the replacement of that role that is going to be my issue here. AF(a) stays exactly the same. I already use a SK(a) and all the other roles, (with the exception of centre-half), are similar, (even if the (a) duty might be a bit new to some of them). When I have dabbled with stoppers in the past I didn't enjoy the experience, and it didn't last long as a result. My main issue at the moment is that the style I currently play involves closing down very high up the pitch, (and the Regista is obviously well-suited and key to that). I'm worried that the Libero might prove a real noose about my neck in that respect.

At the moment I play with counter/balanced in my more defensive style and standard/balanced in my more attacking style. I'm afraid I got a bit confused when creating the new Libero tactic. I assumed that I was moulding from the attacking tactic as everyone was on (a) duty, but it was actually the more defensive Regista tactic that formed the basis of the tactic, (with the Libero replacing the Regista). As a result, even without all the (a) duties, I think I was far too attacking and playing higher up the pitch than I would have liked. Unfortunately, this didn't really dawn on me until after the game and I started writing and taking pics.

The Libero experiment went quite well I think. I didn't have a single sweeper in the squad, so instead I opted for my Regista to play there. Interestingly, (for me at least), he spent a lot of time in front of the 2 stoppers and I didn't really have an issue with the Libero at all, (whether he stepped up or dropped off). I did however have an issue with the stoppers. Jeez I didn't like them at all. They seemed to do very little and if I am honest I was so busy looking at, (and enjoying), the Libero, that I didn't really put much thought into what I could and should be doing to the stoppers to improve things.

We led 3-0 at half-time, (away to Hearts is probably a decent result), we beat them 2-0 away last season, but the match stats looked pretty even and although we looked great going forward, (very similar to our usual style), we looked pretty ropey at the back, especially where the stoppers were concerned and even a little bit with both full backs on (a). I actually noticed a lot of similarities between the Regista and the Libero, but if anything I wish he would have attacked more, which seems a little strange considering all the (a) duties on show. I guess I was just ised to seeing a player in that position prompt and probe a little more. We also played longer than I was expecting, (although pleasingly so at times). I didn't spend a huge amount of time on II's and maybe a lack of focus in some areas was the result.

Hearts scored their goals from an indirect free-kick, (I had not really looked at marking at defensive set-pieces and I only noticed then that it was all over the shop), but their 2nd goal was a very nice one where they played around the stopper and then teased the Libero in committing himself before a deft little header split us wide open. Very nice. Also, (just noticing this now as I write the report), I had opted for 2 ball-playing defenders which seemed more than a little strange as that is not at all the type of player that I look to play at centre-half in my team at all. I suppose that I was thinking more along the lines of what I would like a stopper to be like rather than what my existing players were best suited to doing. Anyway....

Tactic.

There are probably too many TI's here, but this is how I start with a tactic and then remove what I see either not working well or what I think is causing problems elsewhere.

Overview.

Despite our aggressive style, it was Hearts who kept collecting bookings.

Match Stats.

This initially looks quite even, but there is a significant difference in the quality of the chances being created in our favour.

Celtic Stats.

11 key passes is impressive for me. Actually it's really impressive because I never get anywhere near that.

Celtic Chances.

Obviously I have never played with everyone on (a) duty before, but I was actually pleasantly surprised with just about everything, (except the stoppers). Depending on where I end up and with what sort of quality team, I might be tempted to employ something similar next season.

Summary.

So with the ball things were pretty good. We obviously played a similar style to my usual tactic and if anything, the abundance of (a) duties actually made us better. I thought before the game that it might be a case of "too many cooks", (especially on the rhs), but actually, although there was a little of that at times, it was quite pleasing. I liked the way the Libero stepped out ahead of the centre-backs, 9as seen in the last pic), and if I was doing this again, (when I do this again), I will actually make him more attacking if anything. Can I make him dribble more with the ball? Is get further forward an option?

Without the ball it was a little different. The stoppers are awful, (although I appreciate I selected completely the wrong roles). In hindsight, (and looking at the post-game info), I wonder if use of the Libero might also allow me to use "play offside" for the first time in a long while. The last pic certainly seems to be crying out for that and it seemed quite a common theme. If I was playing this tactic again away from this thread I would obviously get rid of the stoppers, and while I might prefer to also get rid of the CM(a) for something with a (d) or (s) duty available I actually liked his creative input. Somewhere else where I possibly made an error was my choice of Libero. Obviously I didn't have a sweeper available and although I have 1 centre-half who I thought could do the job, he needed to play at centre-half and by playing the Regista/DM there, it allowed me to make best use of my better players. The problem was that he was only 5'9" and had a jumping attribute of 5. The goal that Hearts scored from open play, (while good), would never have been scored had the Libero been any of the centre-backs in my squad.

Thanks Ackter.

Yeah I must admit, i disagree with the entire "Must play stopper" concept. Stopper is not, in any way, an attacking role. Its about winning the ball higher but that doesnt make you an attacker.

For my own purposes, i am still enjoying trying all attacking roles, but I am sticking with "Defend" for the centre backs. I have noticed a few issues so far which intrique me:

1) I am nearly convinced that Sweeper Keeper is broken (Although i fully expect someone to come along and tell me i am just expecting too much!). I know i have a Libero and "drop deeper", but my Keeper is never outside his area in open play. He doesnt ever intercept through balls (less of an issue with drop deep). Do i need to train my keeper to "Get forward wherever possible" or something.....

2) Wierd one this, but i notice that since switching to Sweeper Keeper, he ignores his distribution instructions far more. I originally had "pass it shorter" and "Distribute to defenders" but i noticed he was kicking long quite a bit. I expect this will happen sometimes when they opposition are still high up and my defenders are not free (how i wish i could set a "Secondary distribution" so he throws in this situation) but it happens now from goal kicks at least 50% of the time. Sometimes my defenders drop deep for the goal kick and he passes out to them. Other times they just stay up the pitch and he kicks it long.

I tried setting to "quick throw" and also to "Specific player distribution" and selected my Libero, but neither seemed to stop this behaviour. Am i missing something or are others seeing this with the Sweeper Keeper?

3) Libero seems to get very low Ave Ratings. Its a role that i accept is mega challenging to get right, and i dont expect to get a Libero who is in the final third, i am happy with one who just steps out into the DM or at a push MC strata when we have the ball, offers a passing outlet that way. I have a player in the position with "Gets further forward" PPM and tried that PI, but he still seems somewhat hesitant to get beyond the 2 DC, even when we have midfield possession. Also, no matter what he does he seems to get 6.6 to 6.8 rating.

Others experiencing similar issues, or just my crap tactic

The first two, yeah. Though i do occasionally see my keeper dribble the ball out of the box before passing it.

its hard to judge the libero ratings as my guy cant technically play the role yet.

(i think the libero is having an effect on the sweeper keepers performance, as theyre kinda doing similar roles at times)

Jambo98.

(1). I have been playing with a SK(a) for a couple of season now and I love it. He takes free-kicks and pens and spends a lot of time up the field and maybe because I have a higher defensive line, but I see him come out more. he's maybe not Neuer, but he's certainly better than it was before. Give it a go with a higher line, (and without a Libero), before you dismiss it completely.

(2). GK distribution to specific player is broken. It just doesn't work. You need to try and work around it.

(3). That was certainly my impression from the 1 game. Need to play more with II's though to see what I can eke out of him.

Gk distribution to defenders works fine.

Gk distribution to defenders works fine.

Yes, but not to specific player. (or were you suggesting an alternative?)

Gk distribution to defenders works fine.

The first two, yeah. Though i do occasionally see my keeper dribble the ball out of the box before passing it.

its hard to judge the libero ratings as my guy cant technically play the role yet.

So which are you saying, that you agree the distribution on a sweeper keeper you are seeing the same problem, or you dont think it is a problem at all? Sorry the 2 posts seem to confuse me. The problems occur even without "specific player". If i set "distribute to defenders he still kicks long at goal kicks 50% of the time, and also in open play (although open play i accept is less clear cut, as a defender distribution might not always be on, even when i have 5 defenders)

No, when using a sweeper keeper the distribution problem is a lot worse.

When using a regular keeper, it works fine.

(Using distribute to defenders)

Have changed my Libero to a ball playing defender because virtually every goal I've conceded is due to his defensive line.

No, when using a sweeper keeper the distribution problem is a lot worse.

When using a regular keeper, it works fine.

(Using distribute to defenders)

Hmm interestingly i am not noticing problems when using a regular keeper with him not distributing to defenders even when he has that and "pass shorter". Even with goal kicks about 50% he lumps long, which drives me insane. I take it that the sweeper keeper bit is reported as a bug already? Not that it matters for 14, but just making sure for 15 Keeper distribution has been a b*all-ache for years now.