Question About Intersecting Tactical Instructions

Hi people.

Some specific player instructions are grayed out due to player role&duty. If you hover your mouse over one of these instructions, it says "Already active for this role and duty"

But opposite instruction is not grayed out and can be selected. I'll explain my question with an example:

"Close down more" player instruction is grayed out on Advanced forwards with attack duty because its already active for their role and duty. So what happens if I also choose "close down less" instruction? Will they neutralize each other and my player will close down opposing players occasionally, or will the "close down less" instruction override the "close down more" instruction?

Thanks for help in advance <3

I think it just sets the closing down to default in that situation..so he wont break his neck closing down but will if the player in possesion is close enough.

I have one more question. Some of the roles have their both intersecting instructions active. For example deep lying playmakers and advanced playmakers with support duty have their both "hold position" and "get further forward" instructions active. Is this normal or am I missing something?

Normal - you can ask them to "hold position" or to "get further forward" - otherwise he will naturally use his cautious positioning (but that will still let him get further upfield).

I see. Thanks for help.

Still waiting for further opinions about my first question though.

It simply means that he will close down less than his default setting.

It won't "neutralise" anything, he'll just "Close Down Less".

I dont understand, you just said two different things. Lets think about this as if we are using sliders. His default setting is to close down more, which means the pointer at all the way right on the slider. Closing down less than his default settings means(as I understand) closing down occasionally, which means pointer will be on the middle of the slider. What I'm asking is if I choose close down less player instruction alongside with an already active close down more instruction, where will the pointer be? In the middle or all the way left?

What I'm asking is if I choose close down less player instruction alongside with an already active close down more instruction, where will the pointer be? In the middle or all the way left?

And this is why you need for forget about sliders!

I don't see the confusion at all. You have a player whose default is to Close Down More?

If you ask him to Close Down Less, he will Close Down Less.

Where a pointer on an invisible slider is, is irrelevant. The important thing is that he will Close Down Less.

How much less? That's what I'm asking. It's not just closing down more and closing down less. There is a third option which is neither the player closes down more nor closes down less. Thats why I tried to explain my question on sliders. Let me ask another then for the sake of simplicity. I have one central midfieler which neither has his close down more nor close down less instruction active by default, and I have one ball winning midfieler which has his close down more instruction active by default. In this case ball winning midfieler will close down opponents earlier than his central midfieler teammate. Then i set ball winning midfieler's close down less intruction active and now he has both close down more and close down less instructions active. Which one of that players is gonna close down opponents earlier?

Which one of that players is gonna close down opponents earlier?

Not being funny, but why not just watch the game and see?

It depends on more than just the PIs anyway - what about the players' attributes?

You can pontificate and deliberate the various settings, but the only way to know for yourself, is you watch a match and decide whether a player needs to be instructed to Close Down More or Less, to Pass Shorter or more Direct, to Shoot More or Less, to Cross More or Less.......

Have you ever heard of something called controlled experiment? You change one variable at a time to see what kind of results it bears. I assumed that the players would have had the exact same attributes and meant that what would they have done in the exact same situations as I asked my question. I thought to point this out as I wrote my reply but then didn't think it needed to be said. Guess I was wrong. I watch all my preseason games from beginning to end to figure out the tactics I'm gonna use throughout the season. If watching the game helped me about this, I wouldn't have bothered to ask this in here, because there are a whole lot of different variables in match engine which can mislead me.

Anyway I give up. I appreciate you input though. Cheers

And this is why you need for forget about sliders!

I don't see the confusion at all. You have a player whose default is to Close Down More?

If you ask him to Close Down Less, he will Close Down Less.

Where a pointer on an invisible slider is, is irrelevant. The important thing is that he will Close Down Less.

I don't see how it's irrelevant. It's not like the sliders don't exist anymore. We just can't see the settings. It's a perfectly valid question.

For what it's worth, I'm pretty sure the instructions are not absolute i.e a ball winning midfielder told to close down less will still close down more than a generic CM told to close down less. Will he be more aggressive than a generic CM on default settings? Who knows. We should know though. We're the one's who are meant to be giving instructions after all.

Will he be more aggressive than a generic CM on default settings? Who knows. We should know though. We're the one's who are meant to be giving instructions after all.

It will be interesting to see what course SI takes with FM15.

It would probably have been preferable for the new UI to be launched in tandem with some sort of in-game tool which provided the reference points that the slider did. That might have eased people into the new UI era a little more gently.

The fact that wasn't provided might mean that it was left too late to include in FM14, or it might mean that SI want users to distance themselves from that way of thinking.

I'm a far less granular manager than many people, and the fact that I don't know these differences doesn't trouble me at all, but I can see why people deem it to be so important.

How much less? That's what I'm asking. It's not just closing down more and closing down less. There is a third option which is neither the player closes down more nor closes down less. Thats why I tried to explain my question on sliders. Let me ask another then for the sake of simplicity. I have one central midfieler which neither has his close down more nor close down less instruction active by default, and I have one ball winning midfieler which has his close down more instruction active by default. In this case ball winning midfieler will close down opponents earlier than his central midfieler teammate. Then i set ball winning midfieler's close down less intruction active and now he has both close down more and close down less instructions active. Which one of that players is gonna close down opponents earlier?

Entirely contextual and, as you correctly pointed out, there are many factors that will affect this variable.

The short answer to your last question is it depends. Decisions, aggression, concentration, positioning, team work and anticipation (probably more - perhaps someone else can chime in?) would all play a part in deciding this. Of course I assume that in this example you've given, hypothetically, the players involved are as close to perfect as possible to play the roles given? What we aren't taking into account in that case is human error - I could play the two players in question in completely the wrong roles/duties and that would affect their execution of they tasks namely the closing down.

The answer you're looking for is redundant really because as you pointed out in post #12:

"I watch all my preseason games from beginning to end to figure out the tactics I'm gonna use throughout the season. If watching the game helped me about this, I wouldn't have bothered to ask this in here, because there are a whole lot of different variables in match engine which can mislead me."

I suppose my question is: Why would you ever want to ask a BWM to close down more and close down less with the possibility of the outcome being neither of the two? I'd work under the assumption that the BWM will always close down more, regardless.

The thing about this subject is not about sliders. I mentioned sliders to make my point clear. I don't care if they exist or not.

My point is It has been pointed out in the game that conflicting instructions can't be selected simultaneously, neither in team instructions nor in player instructions, which is perfectly logical. And yet, in player instructions you can select conflicting instructions, hell even advanced playmakers have their both hold position and get further forward instructions active by default. I believe it's a mistake on Sigames' part. I just want to figure out how players react when they have their both conflicting instructions active.

I suppose my question is: Why would you ever want to ask a BWM to close down more and close down less with the possibility of the outcome being neither of the two? I'd work under the assumption that the BWM will always close down more, regardless.

I wouldn't want to ask a BWM to close down less and close down more at the same time. On the other hand I would like to know what happens when I do something like that. I used those roles as an example to explain a simple illogical situation in the tactics and it seems I failed.

The thing about this subject is not about sliders. I mentioned sliders to make my point clear. I don't care if they exist or not.

My point is It has been pointed out in the game that conflicting instructions can't be selected simultaneously, neither in team instructions nor in player instructions, which is perfectly logical. And yet, in player instructions you can select conflicting instructions, hell even advanced playmakers have their both hold position and get further forward instructions active by default. I believe it's a mistake on Sigames' part. I just want to figure out how players react when they have their both conflicting instructions active.

Hold position and Get further forward are not conflicting though, as I understand it Hold Position is the opposite to Roam from position, which you can select for an advanced playmaker if you wish too.

I like RTH's approach, I think some people are over complicating things and making it more difficult for themselves. Sure we have been left with a little less information than we'd have liked, but if you watch the games, it's not hard to see the differences as you make them. I'm by no means an expert at this game at all, I have struggled as much as the next man, I just got a right battering 5-0 at home against a side I was expected to beat easily, back to the drawing board, but after reviewing the game, I can see I lost it in the first 20 minutes by not dropping my line back.

I started playing with Balanced philosophy, and standard mentality and started from there, tweaking things as I go in reaction to what I see, it isn't as easy as past FM's to blast your way from top to bottom, but it's bloody rewarding when you get things right, and you can see where you got it right.

Hold position conflicts with both get further forward and roam from position. I would have shared a screenshot but i can't manage to upload it. I don't mean to be a bitch about this cause you make time to reply and enlighten me but get your facts straight and read all the replies first before answering please. I'm asking a really simple question which can be answered like "yes, they close down occasionally in that situation" or "no they don't" or better yet "i don't know".

The thing about this subject is not about sliders. I mentioned sliders to make my point clear. I don't care if they exist or not.

My point is It has been pointed out in the game that conflicting instructions can't be selected simultaneously, neither in team instructions nor in player instructions, which is perfectly logical. And yet, in player instructions you can select conflicting instructions, hell even advanced playmakers have their both hold position and get further forward instructions active by default. I believe it's a mistake on Sigames' part. I just want to figure out how players react when they have their both conflicting instructions active.

Hold position and gets further forward don't conflict. The player can be told to play further forward compared to normal yet also hold this new position higher up the pitch. It wouldn't conflict as he'd be doing both. Now I know both these are default for the AP already but if you then instructed them to 'roam from position' which you can select, then the default 'hold position' would be cancelled even though its still says its selected by default as these two options would conflict.

I can't attach a picture so here it is http://s17.postimg.org/oruy0aq8v/231670_2014_05_02_00001.jpg

The player can be told to play further forward compared to normal yet also hold this new position higher up the pitch

It's not play further forward, it's get further forward and it is the same instruction as "run from deep" from earlier versions. So one can't hold his position and run from deep at the same time.

Hold position conflicts with both get further forward and roam from position. I would have shared a screenshot but i can't manage to upload it. I don't mean to be a bitch about this cause you make time to reply and enlighten me but get your facts straight and read all the replies first before answering please. I'm asking a really simple question which can be answered like "yes, they close down occasionally in that situation" or "no they don't" or better yet "i don't know".

Sure, would you like me to make you a cup of tea while you wait too ?

What question needs answering? The Closing Down one still? I was sure that one was answered.

Sure, would you like me to make you a cup of tea while you wait too ?

well thanks for the offer but I needed help from people that actually know something about what they are talking about before they talk about it.

I highly doubt that there will be a helpful answer to this simple question so forget it.

I can't attach a picture so here it is http://s17.postimg.org/oruy0aq8v/231670_2014_05_02_00001.jpg

It's not play further forward, it's get further forward and it is the same instruction as "run from deep" from earlier versions. So one can't hold his position and run from deep at the same time.

That's 2 different players, just because an IF isn't allowed to get further forward and hold position at the same time doesn't mean a different role/duty can't. I answered you in relation to mentioning the advanced playmaker, not once did you mention an inside forward, so not sure why you thought that screenshot was relevant when mentioning an advanced playmaker?

Hold position doesn't mean the player just stays static in the same spot he starts from, that would be plain silly and pointless. How he is positioned and how he strays from what you've asked him to do comes down to the creative freedom he has, tempo and mentality you use. How he actually follows through this instruction is determined by his attributes. But none the less, someone will still move about with hold position enabled but they'll be less likely to do overlaps, cover for a team make, go beyond the advanced players in front of him etc.

Now gets further forward instructs the player to be more attack minded as it tells him to adopt a more attacking mentality so directly positions him further upfield, makes him more aggressive.. It isn't just the old instruction run from deep.

Some players can have both as SI are trying to create differences between roles and make them more unique, expect this to continue for FM15 too. So for a playmaker these settings work differently from lets say for arguments sake a defender. But a playmaker can still be told to get further forward as its effects his position and yet still hold this higher up position.

If you fail to accept this then its pointless even trying to help you understand.

You say you want an answer from someone who knows what they're are talking about, you got one and dismissed it.

EDIT - I can actually understand how you would jump to conclusions based on the documentation that comes with the game and that is implemented. However I assure you they both can work in tandem and do not conflict in any way.

That's 2 different players, just because an IF isn't allowed to get further forward and hold position at the same time doesn't mean a different role/duty can't. I answered you in relation to mentioning the advanced playmaker, not once did you mention an inside forward, so not sure why you thought that screenshot was relevant when mentioning an advanced playmaker?

http://s16.postimg.org/z6ms9vsvp/231670_2014_05_02_00002.png here is a relevant one. Let's say you are right about APs which I'm not convinced about it. How does this makes sense? I'm telling my player that he is a central defender and he knows that he needs to shoot less often. Then I tell him "hey Mr. central defender. shoot more often and also shoot less often. Understood?"

Hold position doesn't mean the player just stays static in the same spot he starts from, that would be plain silly and pointless. How he is positioned and how he strays from what you've asked him to do comes down to the creative freedom he has, tempo and mentality you use. How he actually follows through this instruction is determined by his attributes. But none the less, someone will still move about with hold position enabled but they'll be less likely to do overlaps, cover for a team make, go beyond the advanced players in front of him etc.

Now gets further forward instructs the player to be more attack minded as it tells him to adopt a more attacking mentality so directly positions him further upfield, makes him more aggressive.. It isn't just the old instruction run from deep.

Some players can have both as SI are trying to create differences between roles and make them more unique, expect this to continue for FM15 too. So for a playmaker these settings work differently from lets say for arguments sake a defender. But a playmaker can still be told to get further forward as its effects his position and yet still hold this higher up position.

Now here is a fresh idea. They are both active and cannot be changed on APs because they are AP and they are not supposed to do many forward runs or stick to a position like a scarecrow. So this way SI prevents this from happening. What do you think about this?

You say you want an answer from someone who knows what they're are talking about, you got one and dismissed it.

http://s16.postimg.org/z6ms9vsvp/231...5_02_00002.png here is a relevant one. Let's say you are right about APs which I'm not convinced about it. How does this makes sense? I'm telling my player that he is a central defender and he knows that he needs to shoot less often. Then I tell him "hey Mr. central defender. shoot more often and also shoot less often. Understood?"

I kinda answered this before. If you selected that then he'd shoot more often as you'd be overwriting his default settings with the custom one. So his default one becomes redundant and he'll do what you selected. However the 'shoots less often' option will still say its activated as part of the role in terms of text as that isn't dynamic so doesn't change. However in terms of the ME he'd do what you instructed him too instead.

I've tested this numerous times in match and come to understand that mentality determines the players positioning on the pitch, get further forward determines the amount of forward runs he makes.

Nope not true, he'll be positioned further up the pitch too. Remember its an off the ball instruction so will only happen when your team has possession but the player doesn't.

What happens if they are told to do more and less forward runs at the same time. I think they do it occasionally like both of them was not active in the first place.

You can't tell them to do more or less of the same instruction. They would do whatever option you choose off the list though as the PI's you choose overwrite the ones that are listed as part of the role already that are the opposite of what you've chosen.

Now here is a fresh idea. They are both active and cannot be changed on APs because they are AP and they are not supposed to do many forward runs or stick to a position like a scarecrow. So this way SI prevents this from happening. What do you think about this?

Not sure I follow? You can't have 2 conflicting instructions active at the same time like I've mentioned above.

I kinda answered this before. If you selected that then he'd shoot more often as you'd be overwriting his default settings with the custom one. So his default one becomes redundant and he'll do what you selected. However the 'shoots less often' option will still say its activated as part of the role in terms of text as that isn't dynamic so doesn't change. However in terms of the ME he'd do what you instructed him too instead.

Nope not true, he'll be positioned further up the pitch too. Remember its an off the ball instruction so will only happen when your team has possession but the player doesn't.

Nope not true, he'll be positioned further up the pitch too. Remember its an off the ball instruction so will only happen when your team has possession but the player doesn't.

Not sure I follow? You can't have 2 conflicting instructions active at the same time like I've mentioned above.

well thanks for the offer but I needed help from people that actually know something about what they are talking about before they talk about it.

I highly doubt that there will be a helpful answer to this simple question so forget it.

You kind of remind me of some of the posters on 2+2 asking for help, so you give them the advice, and they flame you for it, while I continue to make 30k a year, they are still abusing people on a forum losing at $5 games.

To be fair, It seems from what Cleon is saying, I got it slightly wrong, so my apologies, seems like your self I interpreted something slightly wrong, although as I said in the original post, I have learned how to change things from watching games, making mistakes, and learning some more. There are certain posters on here I always listen too, Cleon and RTH are two of those. Cleon always seems to have the answers about the inner workings of the game, so personally I would listen to him if I needed such a question answering.

Peace.

By all accounts, ignore me, but Cleon knows this game inside out.

Disputing any of his knowledge is really not worthwhile. He's trying to help, and what he states should be considered fact. End of.

You kind of remind me of some of the posters on 2+2 asking for help, so you give them the advice, and they flame you for it, while I continue to make 30k a year, they are still abusing people on a forum losing at $5 games.

To be fair, It seems from what Cleon is saying, I got it slightly wrong, so my apologies, seems like your self I interpreted something slightly wrong, although as I said in the original post, I have learned how to change things from watching games, making mistakes, and learning some more. There are certain posters on here I always listen too, Cleon and RTH are two of those. Cleon always seems to have the answers about the inner workings of the game, so personally I would listen to him if I needed such a question answering.

Peace.

Is my words flaming to your ears? You should play League of Legends to see true meaning of flaming. >< I'm sorry but I've never meant any offense to any of you. Although I get upset when people claim to know something when they didn't even study the subject and insist on their ideas. maybe I'm a flamer and maybe you are a condescending person, that doesnt matter to me as we all have flaws.

By all accounts, ignore me, but Cleon knows this game inside out.

Disputing any of his knowledge is really not worthwhile. He's trying to help, and what he states should be considered fact. End of.

I'm correct in what I'm saying. If you don't believe me that's your issue and you'll always struggle with the game because how you think it works and how it actually works are two different things. It's quite clear you don't want answers and fail to accept them even though what I say is a fact. It's pointless me even trying to help you or answering any further questions as you don't believe what's written. You can either believe those who have been associated with the match engine and worked on it for many years and know exactly how the game works and what something does or you can continue to ignore them and be ignorant to facts and dimiss everything that's said.

A waste of my time and effort to even carry this subject on. So like they say on Dragon's Den 'I'm out'

By all accounts, ignore me, but Cleon knows this game inside out.

Disputing any of his knowledge is really not worthwhile. He's trying to help, and what he states should be considered fact. End of.

This really could be a forum rule - "Cleon is right - end of"