Creation of Own Roles and Styles of Play

Dear Sirs,

In summary, in the main thread I emphasized the importance of a detailed overview of the default instructions for each role, tactic, mentality and fluidity for a better game experience.

Like I said before, the lack of the default instructions overview results in a lack of an overview of how the players behave on the pitch by default (or in some loss of control of the basic team/player instructions i.e detailed overview of default instructions)

First of all, I'd like to talk about one of the reasons why SI has decided to remove the sliders.

Reminder: in the previous FM Series, the default instructions were represented by the sliders, while in FM14 they are neither visible nor tweakable.

Pros and cons of tweaking the default instructions:

With the sliders, as you will have noticed, we used to be able to do some minor tweaks to the default instructions while taking into consideration different factors e.g. players attributes.

1. The advantage of this kind of approach was that it gave us more room for out to box thinking which gave us the opportunity to create something completely different instead of using the preset roles and systems by SI.
   
2. But the disadvantage of tweaking the default instructions was that the AI couldn't defend against or adapt to the one-dimensional chance types created by minor slider tweaks (in other words, while user managers were able to tweak the sliders, AI Teams could not do it), resulting in the emergence of AI Cheats and the so-called Super Tactics.
   Check this post for an example given by PaulC.
   

So, SI decides to disable the possibility of tweaking the default instructions in order to prevent the emergence of AI Cheats or creation of Super Tactics that ruins the game. That’s why we can not anymore tweak the default instructions. So, of course, I TOTALLY understand why they took this decision.

The removal of sliders leads to a better AI management for SI developers.

With the new tactic system based on player roles there are less incompatible behaviors.

Anyway, I'd like to precise and repeat it again: the default instructions should at least be visible! This will allow us to see how they changes when applying the team/player instructions & shouts. The descriptions of the roles gives us only a vague idea about the basics they do. How did SI really define the roles by default?

For instance, what is the difference in passing/closing down/long distance shoots between all the midfield roles? The desriptions are not clear enough to answer this question, they don't say enough about the difference in instructions. So, I believe we need more clarifications and better descriptions/definitions for each role/mentality/fluidity for a better interpretation.

All that being said, would you have preferred that SI make an effort to find a solution to this AI issue?

Don't you think that an alternative was possible? Like this one for example:

A new mechanism that allows User Managers to customize/create their "own roles" and "styles of play" and share these customized roles and specialized instructions with AI Managers in order to compete with them on equal terms and so have the right balance between the User Manager and AI Managers. This sharing system could be a solution for the scourge of AI Cheats & Super Tactics.

P.S.: the idea of the creation of own roles and styles of play is not mine! This was suggested here by the member rashidi1.

NB: for more information about my point of view check my posts in this thread

PS: check also FM14 Player Instructions

Enjoy the document,

Ali

I don't get your poll. We can tweak the default instructions now.

You are giving us a choice of either do everything ourselves, or get SI to do everything for us.

You can already decide how the team is going to play, move your players to any area of the pitch, and decide on a player's individual role and/or instructions within the overarching framework of the team.

You have all the freedom in the world to play an assymetrical formation if that's what you want to do. You can also choose to play with two or three enganches/trequartistas if you like. And if no role seems to fit a certain player, pick his best position and a 'bland' role (e.g. DM for DM, CM for MC, CD for DC, FB for FB) before setting a series of personal instructions to create a new, player-specific role.

I'm pretty sure that Pirlo, say, wasn't told to play the regista role. Instead, the boss would have had a look, told him to sit in the DM role acting as a DLP (in FM terms), but would have added 'Don't worry about running around covering the defence, though: you're just there to receive the ball and make the plays'.

The name for the role would have come later, probably via the media sticking a tag on it (or, it was a common role way back when and fell out of fashion for umpteen years before seeing a revival, largely thanks a manager having the vision to use it and/or a player really making the role his own).

As for styles of play...how many more are there? Contain, Defend, Counter, Control, 'Standard', Attack, Overload. Set your formation and team/individual player instructions and the styles can be used any way you like.

If it boils down to sliders and arrows on top of the tools we already have, you're really just after a return to the ME-breaking 'super-tactic' days, however you dress it up.

I'd like to clarify again that I'm NOT asking for an overview with the use of sliders, but rather for an overview with better descriptions/definitions of the default settings.

Take one of the previous FM's and try these examples:

1. A change of the team instructions involves a change in the default players instructions:
   Set a player on Central Midfielder with as team instructions: Fluidity on Balanced and Mentality on Normal. After this, check only the default individual instructions of the central midfielder closely.
   Then change only the team instructions, but this time take a Rigid Fluidity and a Defensive Mentality.
   Now Compare the 2 individual instructions: the default sliders of the players has changed automaticaly or, in other words, the behavior of the player on the pitch is no more the same despite the fact that he has still the same role.
   
2. A change of the duty also changes the default settings of a particular role:
   Set a player with an attacking duty and then with a support duty and compare the default individual instructions.
   

Whatever you choose as role/tactic/mentality/fluidity this is reflected on the default settings.

That's why I want to see an overview of the default settings because when you use a Shout , the effects on the behaviour are not the same: we don't really now the frequencies of the instructions. :

So to see what really happens we absolutely need to have a detailed overview of the default instructions.

Who has closed my thread "Suggestion for the Lacunas of the New Tactic System" and Why?

KDR, In FM when you choose a Counter Mentality the rythme of the game is by default on fast. But IRL there are some teams that has a counter attacking mentality with a slower rythme... Sound illogic maybe for you but it is'nt.

Because IRL teams have tactics with the ball and without the ball... With the possibility of creating our own systems with and without the ball we should be able to do such things like in IRL.

KDR, In FM when you choose a Counter Mentality the rythme of the game is by default on fast.

Incorrect - it is slow and patient.

KDR, In FM when you choose a Counter Mentality the rythme of the game is by default on fast. But IRL there are some teams that has a counter attacking mentality with a slower rythme... Sound illogic maybe for you but it is'nt.

Because IRL teams have tactics with the ball and without the ball... With the possibility of creating our own systems with and without the ball we should be able to do such things like in IRL.

i posted about this too. there should be an option to set tactics for defence and attack. like narrow defending, but spread out wide for attacks as an example

We CAN edit the instructions, so I see no need to edit the default instructions.

However, what we need is more expanation as to what the default instructions actually are, as stated in the other thread.

btw don't like seeing the other threads being closed. The proper discussion of discrete issues just gets buried in the big one main thread

Incorrect - it is slow and patient.

sorry, I wrote it a little too fast.

I wanted to say "when you choose a Counter Mentality the rythme of the game is by default on slow. But IRL there are some teams that has a counter attacking mentality with a higher tempo".

KDR, In FM when you choose a Counter Mentality the rythme of the game is by default on fast. But IRL there are some teams that has a counter attacking mentality with a slower rythme... Sound illogic maybe for you but it is'nt.

Because IRL teams have tactics with the ball and without the ball... With the possibility of creating our own systems with and without the ball we should be able to do such things like in IRL.

CORRECTION: I've written it a little too fast.

I wanted to say "when you choose a Counter Mentality the rythme of the game is by default on slow. But IRL there are some teams that has a counter attacking mentality with a higher tempo".

sorry, I wrote it a little too fast.

I wanted to say "when you choose a Counter Mentality the rythme of the game is by default on slow. But IRL there are some teams that has a counter attacking mentality with a higher tempo".

Yes but in FM, counter mentality has everyone on slow and patient until the moment your team wins the ball, your team then goes into attacking mode and throws players forward, so it does kinda do what you want.

Who has closed my thread "Suggestion for the Lacunas of the New Tactic System" and Why?

Note that it was closed, as it was felt that a lot of the content was close to this thread: http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/362969-FM-14-Sliders-gone-thoughts

Early comments in there were duplicating the sort of replies that the linked thread was attracting, and it was felt best to keep one main thread for the pure sliders / no-sliders debate.

I'd like to clarify again that I'm NOT asking for an overview with the use of sliders, but rather for an overview with better descriptions/definitions of the default settings.\[/b]

All of what you wrote in this post seems different to the poll question. As far as I am concerned being allowed to make changes to the default as we can now is fine. The default perhaps can be explained better using footballing terminology. The poll however is looking for a certain response by its wording. It appears to insinuate you are stuck with a default setting.

This thread may as well be closed to be honest.

All of what you wrote in this post seems different to the poll question. As far as I am concerned being allowed to make changes to the default as we can now is fine. The default perhaps can be explained better using footballing terminology. The poll however is looking for a certain response by its wording. It appears to insinuate you are stuck with a default setting.

This thread may as well be closed to be honest.

In-depth analysis of the poll:

1. If you want to create new roles and styles of play you need, first of all, to have a detailed overview of the default instructions of each role/tactic/mentality/fluidity, then the opporunity to tweak and save them, and finally the possibility to share them with AI Managers.
   
2. If you don't want to create your own roles and styles of play you actually don't need to tweak default instructions.
   

PS1: Like you said, instead of giving an overview with sliders we should translate this sliders with a detailed footballing terminology.

PS2: I'm not stuck with a particular default setting: I just want to see and analyse them for a better interpretation of the Roles, Tactics and Shouts.

I like the expanded player roles

I also like you can replace a creative player with a ball winning midfielder (e.g) and set the role in the sub screen instead of having to go to the tactics screen

I like the expanded player roles

I also like you can replace a creative player with a ball winning midfielder (e.g) and set the role in the sub screen instead of having to go to the tactics screen

Not a bad idea at all. The quick sub screen could have a drop down menu for role selection.

counter mentality has everyone on slow and patient until the moment your team wins the ball

How do you know this from the tactics screen?

counter mentality has everyone on slow and patient until the moment your team wins the ball

How do you know this from the tactics screen?

Its the nature of counter attacking football, however if you hover over the counter attacking mentality it will give you a tool tip on what it does.

Yes but in FM, counter mentality has everyone on slow and patient until the moment your team wins the ball, your team then goes into attacking mode and throws players forward, so it does kinda do what you want.

Where, on the tactic screen, do we see that it actually happens like that?

If so, its insinuate that tactics with the ball and tactics without the ball are already implemented in the game without our knowledge?

In fact, we are just supposing that it happens like that... and that is just what I don't want to do: playing FM with suppositions .

Where, on the tactic screen, do we see that it actually happens like that?

If so, its insinuate that tactics with the ball and tactics without the ball are already implemented in the game without our knowledge?

In fact, we are just supposing that it happens like that... and that is just what I don't want to do: playing FM with suppositions .

As milnerpoint says if you hover over the counter attacking mentality it will give you a tool tip on what it does.

Where, on the tactic screen, do we see that it actually happens like that?

If so, its insinuate that tactics with the ball and tactics without the ball are already implemented in the game without our knowledge?

In fact, we are just supposing that it happens like that... and that is just what I don't want to do: playing FM with suppositions .

Well in order to play this game you MUST have some innate knowledge of football and the terminology. Counter attacking football is as its describes, players will sit back and counter when they get the ball. This is part of football 101 if you will. On the tactics screen it will tell you, on the tool tip what the counter attacking mentality will do for your players, you dont need to see it in a slider representation, not that there ever was a slider for counter attacking football, just a tick box or a mentality.

The tactics screen didnt show you the difference between 2 and 5 for defensive line, or it didnt give you any indication at all of the difference in distance of passing between short and default. There were no tool tips that told you anything about these sliders, or what they represented. So you have spent almost all of your FM/Champ manager life making assumptions, and you most likely always will to an extent.

Not a bad idea at all. The quick sub screen could have a drop down menu for role selection.

Well in order to play this game you MUST have some innate knowledge of football and the terminology. Counter attacking football is as its describes, players will sit back and counter when they get the ball. This is part of football 101 if you will. On the tactics screen it will tell you, on the tool tip what the counter attacking mentality will do for your players, you dont need to see it in a slider representation, not that there ever was a slider for counter attacking football, just a tick box or a mentality.

The tactics screen didnt show you the difference between 2 and 5 for defensive line, or it didnt give you any indication at all of the difference in distance of passing between short and default. There were no tool tips that told you anything about these sliders, or what they represented. So you have spent almost all of your FM/Champ manager life making assumptions, and you most likely always will to an extent.

I think you misunderstood my opinion or maybe I juste haven't the necessary vocabulary to explain my thoughts because English is only my 4th language. So, thank you for taking it in consideration.

If I've hadn't have some innate knowledge of football and football terminology why would I consecrate my time for this game and on this forum?

So please never judge people, without knowing them IRL, even about their knowledge of football.

I think that you've forgotten maybe that this is not REAL LIFE but a A FOOTBALL SIMULATION GAME.

So, therefore, even if you are the best manager of the world, you NEED to have more detailed information about how a game reacts, and this for ALL the ASPECTS of the game, to apply your innate knowledge of football in a game.

Remember every real life manager (RLM) does not have the same view of football. Each manager has his own PHILOSOPHY.

Yeah, you're right, when you give a basic definition of what counter attacking means. But we might not have the same way to use tactics.

That's why I'm talking about STYLE of PLAYING FOOTBALL.

Every manager should have his own style and innovate. That is what makes a GREAT MANAGER.

Clarifaction about my use of Sliders:

I've never put a slider on 7, or 17 or 3 because I didn't understood or saw the difference between the sliders e.g. on 13 or 14.

So I decided to divide it in 5 or 3 levels, what I've called the frequencies in myh threads: e.g. 0-5-10-15-20.

In this way I was interpretting the sliders like 0 and 20 as the 2 extreme ones, 10 as Normal/Mixte. And 5 and 15 as specific ones.

I've always did MINOR tweaks, to improve my tactic and behavior of my players. Because don't forget, if you set a player as a Target Man and changed all his sliders like those of a poacher, then he played no more like a Target Man but like a Poacher.

The roles are defined by SI, but I want to have the ability of create new ones e.g. by taking in account the way I see a role/tactic or for example if I try to let play a player like he does IRL as much as possible.

3 Levels: for example for long distance shoots "rarely" "normal" "always" --> If you have noticed you can not ask in FM to a player to NEVER shoot or cross etc....

Don't you think that a RLM has never told to one of his player to NEVER do something?

--> By doing so, I knew I was still playing with assumptions, you're right I've never said the opposite. I rather said that I did not like playing with assumptions.

But, at least, with the "not enough" detailed overview of the sliders I had an idea of the behaviors on the pitch. Now that we don't have any overview of the defaults instructions we play with more assumption. I try to find a way to find a solution for more control.

Conclusion:

What I'm asking for is a translation of the sliders in footballing terminology instead of hiding or deleting them.

I'm just saying we need a better, more detailed, more complete information of all the tactical aspects of the game, especially for the default instructions.

As you would have noticed, I'm of those who plays the game as realistic as possible. I'm not insinuating that you are a casual gamer or something. We have probably differnt ways of paying the game. What I really lnow is that I'm NOT a casual gamer when it comes to Football Manager.

Little example of my behaviour against ME bugs:

Suppose that I come a cross a bug like e.g. corner cross to the second post and your defender ends up scoring one time in two.

I will never take advantage of such Match Engine bugs.

If the issue won't be fixed then I'll never set the corner instruction on the second post but e.g. on mixte to bypass the bug as much as possible.

I'm of those who tries to make the game harder and more difficult. Why? Because that's how it is in real life ;-)

I hope I'm clear.

My Respects.

No need to apologies, even English speaking people dont understand each other most of the time!

Your right every manager has his own style and preference, but they come from solid basic tactical therories. IE in the counter attacking example, its a term used for a certain style of football, not just a phrase given to something you or me or someone else may have created. So in that essence, yes you will have to follow certain ways of doing things if you want to play counter attacking football. The game explains it, to an extent, based on the most basic of principles of that style of football, its then up to the manager to take it and mold it to suit his team.

The second part has been argued quite a lot. I dont think there are many, if any managers out there who specifically tell a player to never cross if he is in a crossing position, its counter productive. Say for example you have your inside forward wide right, picking up a loose ball, with a tall target man in the box, being marked by a small full back, and you had told your inside forward to never cross, would you expect that player to completely ignore the glaring goal scoring opportunity in order to follow team instructions? Of course not. Same with shooting, say the keeper is on the ground, outside of the goal posts, you wouldnt expect your defensive mid to ignore the chance, even with a "no long shots" setting. Again, its counter productive. Even the mighty pass the ball into the net Barca team a few years ago would put in a cross if it were the best option available. So i dont agree that anyone should have that level of control, because its unrealistic to have in the game.

The game could always do with more explanation, but the problem is, how far do you go? Where do you stop in terms of describing exactly what your set up will achieve? You could have a 50 page document on a 442 set on defaults, and still not cover everything. The tool tips are brief, but very informative, the rest you have to learn, or use experience with. FM has never been a casual gamer game, maybe a bit more with FMC, but the main game is not for the faint hearted.

I totaly agree with you when you give the examples to explain me that it is counter productive.

But, sometimes managers do things that are counter productive, aren't they?

Imagine a extreme authoritarian manager telling a young defender of 18 years that does not support any pressure to never shoot on goal and always try to pass? The guy will be scared and will probably hesitate. It is possible IRL that such a stupid thing happens, even if I agree that this type of managing has nothing to do with a good management.

I was just thinking, managers can sometimes make very big mistakes and take very bad decisions.

Other example for the use of the NEVER option

I dont think there are many, if any managers out there who specifically tell a player to never cross if he is in a crossing position, its counter productive."

Johan Cruyff: "Football is about making mistakes. Who makes the most, loses the game."

The game could always do with more explanation, but the problem is, how far do you go? Where do you stop in terms of describing exactly what your set up will achieve? You could have a 50 page document on a 442 set on defaults, and still not cover everything. The tool tips are brief, but very informative, the rest you have to learn, or use experience with. FM has never been a casual gamer game, maybe a bit more with FMC, but the main game is not for the faint hearted.

Of course, even an encyclopedy could not cover everything. But I'm not asking as much

SI should use the vast blank spaces on the individual instructions screen to provide a bit more explanation of how a specific role behaves by default rather than only definitions of the roles.

They should be able to describe, by using football terminology, the default mentality, pass, creativity, cross, shoots, etc. of every role, team mentality and fluidity.

E.g What is the default pass setting of a Target Man? What is the default cross setting of a defensif midfielder? Rarely? Normal? Mixte? Often? Direct?

I think that if we have that we will better understand and interpret the effects of the shouts on the default settings, or in other words, on each role and tactic.

But I don't want it explained down to that level, I want to work it out for myself.

You're asking for a crossword with answers already filled in :confused:

Of course, even an encyclopedy could not cover everything. But I'm not asking as much

SI should use the vast blank spaces on the individual instructions screen to provide a bit more explanation of how a specific role behaves by default rather than only definitions of the roles.

They should be able to describe, by using football terminology, the default mentality, pass, creativity, cross, shoots, etc. of every role, team mentality and fluidity.

E.g What is the default pass setting of a Target Man? What is the default cross setting of a defensif midfielder? Rarely? Normal? Mixte? Often? Direct?

I think that if we have that we will better understand and interpret the effects of the shouts on the default settings, or in other words, on each role and tactic.

Personally i would hate that, i cannot imagine im alone. You dont need to know what each one does on such an arbitrary scale, you really dont.

You can tweak the player and team instructions to tell a player how you want him to play isn't this creating your own role inside the pre-set roles.

To be fair i believ Ali wanted to say that he wants an option to tell the player not to cross ever which is quite valid footballing idea (can this even be said?!?) anyway, he wants an option to tell his wide forward player to pass short and never to cross in order to retain posession. given wide players crossing during the game should then on be dictated by player himself (his own mind and preferences, maybe respect towards manager as well) and certain circumstances that develop during the match.

I seriously do not believe he ment actually never cross, but being able to instruct a player never to cross and then let the game decide if he eer crosses or not. And I do agree with him.

I would like to thank you for this clarification! You've got it right!

You've understood what I meant with this paragraph in the main thread:

" In Real Life, even if the managers don't use sliders, they know exactly what they told to each player about

what to do or not to do on the pitch, and this for all the aspects of the

game (mentality, creativity, pass, cross, roam from position, etc.)

Then, if the players apply or not the instructions that is an other debate :-)."

For those who has difficulties to understand my point of view:

I juste want to know EXACTLY what I told a player to do or not to do. Therefore I must give him the basic instructions or in FM language i.e instructions by default. Why? Because only then I would be able to know EXACTLY the effect of a shout like "shoot less often" on his default instruction.

Another reason Why I want to know it? Because than I would be able to detect, with or without using the selectable shouts if a player actualy TRIES to behave on the pitch like I have told him to behave or if he does his best and maximum to respect the instructions that I've gave him. This will allow me to detect if a player is professional enough for example.

Remember that the game has also "Hidden Attributes" like professionality, regularity, loyality, sportiveness, etc. I want to detect these attributes especially by watching the behaviour of the players during a match.

I'm not asking for robotised players that always apply the instructions of a manager. No! That isn't not what I want because it is unrealistic.

I've never said or insinuate that I want a full control of the players on the pitch! If this was the case, I would be playing FIFA or PES.

So, my aim is not to control the players with a joystick. I want control of my basic instructions i.e detailed overview of default instructions.

To detect if a player applies your basic/default instructions you need to have an overview of it.

Hope this time my idea is clear for everybody

Pep Guardiola: "Those who honour my decisions will get my support and those who don’t want to understand that will end up in the stands."

---> Link

Jürgen Klopp: "This is Arsène Wenger football, when I watch as a supporter, this is the most beautiful style of football you can watch."

---> Link

Another reason Why I want to know it? Because than I would be able to detect, with or without using the selectable shouts if a player actualy TRIES to behave on the pitch like I have told him to behave or if he does his best and maximum to respect the instructions that I've gave him. This will allow me to detect if a player is professional enough for example.

Creating your own role does not actually mean you would understand every setting. People didn't always understand the sliders. The time has come to stop thinking in those terms, but to think it terms of footballing philosophy and what you think the shouts would do logically.

Then you have to see how your players use these instructions. Which comes from watching your players play. I am sure you know this, so I may have misread this part. But if you give a players some instructions you then need to watch the actual match to see how he performs using those instructions remembering that a different player may use those instructions differently depending on abilities and PPMs.

But I don't want it explained down to that level, I want to work it out for myself.

You're asking for a crossword with answers already filled in :confused:

I'm having a hard time taking this answer seriously – you are suggesting that a manager asking a player to play a certain way should not know what he is asking his player to do.

The 'crossword' in FM shouldn't be figuring out what a player does or rather is supposed to do. That's just ridiculous.

Player roles and instructions are letters and words, your vocabulary. Whether you pick the right ones to fill in the 'crossword' should be the riddle.

Except right now we don't even know what some the letters of the alphabet are.

Creating your own role does not actually mean you would understand every setting. People didn't always understand the sliders. The time has come to stop thinking in those terms, but to think it terms of footballing philosophy and what you think the shouts would do logically.

Then you have to see how your players use these instructions. Which comes from watching your players play. I am sure you know this, so I may have misread this part. But if you give a players some instructions you then need to watch the actual match to see how he performs using those instructions remembering that a different player may use those instructions differently depending on abilities and PPMs.

I agree with you.

You know, no one has ever had in-depth knowledge of the sliders system (except the game developers), that is why I divided the sliders in 3 Levels or 5 levels.

I perhaps didn't not know exactly but I knew at least approximately what I'd given as default instructions to the players. (e.g. frequencies of shoots).

Effectively we can still see how players use our instructions (shouts) by watching the matches but we can't see anymore directly the effects that shouts have on the preset default instructions.

Of course, we discover the effects with experience.

Remember that, in the previous system, roles were defined by the sliders (confirmed by PaulC in this thread)

So, with the sliders system gone, I've noticed that the new tactic system doesn't give us the opportunity to tweak the default roles and thus create new ones.

Thats what's give me the feeling that there are few limits.

After consideration, don’t you think that there is a correlation between the removing of the slider system and the fact that SI had add 8 new roles?

Anyway, you've all probably noticed, that I have mixed feelings.

On one hand I'm glad that the sliders-system belongs to the past and on the other hand I'm a little bit sceptical with the new tactic system.

Personally i would hate that, i cannot imagine im alone. You dont need to know what each one does on such an arbitrary scale, you really dont.

It must be true if you said it..

We don't even know what are the default instructions of any role, we know what are unavailable and available for a particular role but must we assume that unavailable instructions are default instructions ?????????????????????????

Even the mighty pass the ball into the net Barca team a few years ago would put in a cross if it were the best option available. So i dont agree that anyone should have that level of control, because its unrealistic to have in the game.

Nothing unrealistic and Barcelona is the worst example ever, there were xxxxxxxx situations during their last 2 years /Guardiola and Villanova/ when they could go for easy counterattacks and to get easy goals after they had won the ball back but they never did it in a match. That "unrealistic" argument is just stupid, sorry. Everything what you call "unrealistic" I can find in the real life.

I remember that in one of my previous saves, I'd tried to play the Barcelona style: Tiki-Taka i.e. extreme patient possession game with very much short passes.

For each Tactic/Mentality/Fluidity I had used, I changed the following default sliders:

1. Long Distance Shoot: everybody on "rarely", in certain situations one player had it on "normal".

But, why didn't we have the possibility to choose "never"? I'd like to told e.g. my 2 DC's to NEVER try to shoot on goal.

2. Cross: "rarely" for everybody except the RB was on "normal". Here too, I'd like to tell never for some players.

The aim was to retain possession as much as possible by increasing the amount of short passes. I wanted to have the ball on the ground, not in the air!

What bothers me is that in FM14 I must first experience by watching many matches before I knew what I actually told them to do as basic instructions i.e. defaults instructions. And this is due to the lack of an overview of the default settings of the roles.

The tactics screen didnt show you the difference between 2 and 5 for defensive line,

Are you sure the d-line wasn't moving up and down on the tactic screen?

There were no tool tips that told you anything about these sliders, or what they represented. So you have spent almost all of your FM/Champ manager life making assumptions, and you most likely always will to an extent.

But I don't want it explained down to that level, I want to work it out for myself.

You're asking for a crossword with answers already filled in :confused:

Wait a minute. FM had a manual and recently became a full online manual. http://www.footballmanager.com/manual/

The first step to do before search and ask in the forum.

What about the actual situation? Shall we talk about the Target Man/Playmaker situation of this year?

Where is stated that you have as many Target Man/Playmaker as the number of player with this role on the field?

In how many ways can I supply the TM and where in the game I know the different options I have?

There was always a complain about the lack of information in FM. How can we find the correct level of depth of descriptions and information available?

What is the correct level of "work it out of yourself"?

Are you sure the d-line wasn't moving up and down on the tactic screen?

Absolutely 10000% certain.

Wait a minute. FM had a manual and recently became a full online manual. http://www.footballmanager.com/manual/

The first step to do before search and ask in the forum.

What about the actual situation? Shall we talk about the Target Man/Playmaker situation of this year?

Where is stated that you have as many Target Man/Playmaker as the number of player with this role on the field?

In how many ways can I supply the TM and where in the game I know the different options I have?

There was always a complain about the lack of information in FM. How can we find the correct level of depth of descriptions and information available?

What is the correct level of "work it out of yourself"?

Show me in that manual where it explains what each notch on a slider represents.

Show me in that manual where it explains what each notch on a slider represents.

Hey don't try tricky games with me

There were no tool tips that told you anything about these sliders, or what they represented.

You said you knew nothing. It's different from knowing what each notch on a sliders represents.

I can now ask you "Show me in that manual where it explains what each number of each attribute" represent, or "Show me the difference in passing/closing down between a Defensive Midfielder on Defense and an Anchor Man". You absolutely can't.

You don't like the depth of information of a notch of slider, I get that. You don't like to have visual representation of D-line (btw I asked some friend of mine if he can confirm that it was/wasn't, I have a different memory than yours ), I get that.

You're in contradiction when you say that you don't want to know the rarely/mixed/often level of information.

When you click on "shoot more often" you're simply moving a setting from a notch to another, in old terms from mixed to often, if you click "shoot less often" you move a notch from a mixed to a (almost)never one.

You're saying you would hate it, but are still using and appreciate that kind of level of information.

Back to your question: did you know nothing about run from deep, run with ball, long shots, through balls and cross ball sliders? No tooltips on what they represented? Did you know what a notch of difference made?

Remember that, in the previous system, roles were defined by the sliders (confirmed by PaulC in this thread)

So, with the sliders system gone, I've noticed that the new tactic system doesn't give us the opportunity to tweak the default roles and thus create new ones.

Thats what's give me the feeling that there are few limits.

After consideration, don’t you think that there is a correlation between the removing of the slider system and the fact that SI had add 8 new roles?

Anyway, you've all probably noticed, that I have mixed feelings.

On one hand I'm glad that the sliders-system belongs to the past and on the other hand I'm a little bit sceptical with the new tactic system.

Firstly, you have to define "create new roles"

Secondly, the half back and False nine are roles that couldn't have existed before. They have and require specific logic that wasnt there, nor that could be reproduced with sliders.

I'd like to share this with you:

Hi,

I was just wondering which direction FM was taking so I'd like to ask you a few questions:

1. What was the real reason for removing the sliders?
   
2. Considering the fact that the ME of FM14 is not a complete new version, but an improved version of FM13's ME, and therefore can we conclude that sliders are still availlable in the background?
   
3. Are the default instructions untweakable to avoid the emergence of bugs that could not be fixed?
   Or, in other words because the AI couldn't defend against or adapt to those minor tweaks, resulting in the emergence of the so-called super-tactics?
   If so, I understand why they are no more tweakable.
   
4. Is there a correlation between the fact that default instructions are untweakable and the addition of 8 new roles?
   
5. Why don't we have a little bit more explanations/clarifications - in football terminology - of the default instructions for a better interpretation?

Thanks in advance.

NB: i'm glad sliders belongs to the past. I'm not asking them back.

I'm not an SI employee, so have no idea how relevant my opinion is. These opinions are my own, and not SI's. Moderators are not SI employees, nor do we have any inside information.

1. It is well known that FM13 introduced collision detection which stopped obvious exploits of players running through one another - one form of Match Engine exploit removed. That was nothing to do with sliders, and was just a general coding issue. Onto slider removal in FM14. Sliders meant Roles could be tweaked so much that they were no longer reminiscent to the default Role. My understanding from reading between the lines of some informed poster's comments is that SI will be able to code specific "interplay" or "relationships" between Roles - this can only be done as we are now tweaking in a controlled manner which retains the essence of a Role. If sliders remained, people could tweak those Roles so much, that some of this developing "interplay" and "relationship" wouldn't look right.

The half back and the performance of the DCs around him is the first example of this. It doesn't work at the moment, but it's the first sign of real interplay between Roles that we have never had before. FM14 primarily is about establishing the new interface. I'd like to hope that FM15 will see the development of more interplay between Roles.

2. Sliders never really actually existed as anything other than a graphical representation of elements of code (which is what the Player Instructions now are), so no, they are not still in the game.

3. Default instructions are set as they are to maintain the integrity of the Role, which will enable development of point 1. If you allow an Inside Forward to stay out wide and not cut inside, he is no longer an inside forward (as an example). It has absolutely nothing to do with preventing exploits or hiding bugs.

4. No. The new Roles really are "new" Roles. They all exhibit behaviours that the original sets of Roles could not do in a pure TC environment (i.e. without slider tweaks).

5. I personally don't believe it is needed, but agree that better documentation would not harm things. We need to approach the game with a different mentality now. It isn't dumbed down, instead it is now a top-down method of playing, relative to the bottom-up approach of old. By this, I mean that historically we spent ages over analysing instructions and settings. Our familiarity with that methodology is what blocks people from being able to revert to the new method.

By standing back a bit, and saying "OK, to start with, he's "just" a central midfielder" and then refining the fundamental instructions of the Role, we form his true playing style. You don't really need to know his creative freedom, roaming, mentality etc. to do this. That was not true manager to player interaction, and what we have now is more appropriate for a football management simulation.

Hi,

You probably need to ask me this at a less busy time ;-)

But the main reason for removal of classic tactics was to allow us to build ME AI in future around player roles.

Cheers,

Paul

1. Without sliders, roles are now real standalone objects that are not necessary based on the same criteria/variables. If a role is the result of a sum of numbers you have to consider that every role is not build picking numbers from the same group (or range). It's not that they simply hide sliders. You don't need to see sliders because every role doesn't involve the same sliders as the other roles, so you can't simply compare different roles because there aren't the "same" sliders comparing them. An Advanced Playmaker might not have the same passing slider bar (or the variables that handle this kind of function) than an Anchor Man.

2. It can be sliders, it can be numbers you put in a form...think about the Target Man functionality. It's just built-in in the role. You can argue that it's better or not, less or more intuitive or limiting how to supply a Target Man, it's like asking if they've hidden the tick box and if it should be visible. Now this deletion is not a huge problem per se, since it's just an on/off switch, so can also don't care not having a "manual" instruction. If you think that with this 2 option switch you had another 4 options (how to supply the TM) you understand that some user with this change might get uncomfortable.

Even with the actual training system you can think that there sliders behind, they're just a way to display a value. What it matters is what you can or can't do.

3. Take mentality, passing, closing down and creative freedom sliders. You had 20*20*20*20 combinations. Can some of these combinations, with some specific other instructions like forward runs, in some particular position on the pitch create a problem with the ME? That's realistic.

Can the AI manage all these combinations with a proper logic? SI doesn't think so.

4. Answered in point 1. Since roles are standalone object and doesn't necessary share the same elements, you can have ad-hoc elements and routines that you should not tweak, otherwise the role lose his true meaning. I don't understand RTHerringbone and his no...

5. I'm not in the position to answer.

Just trying to clarify something: the player instructions that are grey are default instructions or simply unavailable instructions ?

Just trying to clarify something: the player instructions that are grey are default instructions or simply unavailable instructions ?

See the key at the bottom - grey = currently unselected

See the key at the bottom - grey = currently unselected

No, those are dark grey and of course available. I'm talking light grey, it says unavailable for this position and role. So, these are really unvailable and not default instructions ??? I'm asking because there are instructions that are hard coded and since they are this could be the reason to be unavailable.

No, those are dark grey and of course available. I'm talking light grey, it says unavailable for this position and role. So, these are really unvailable and not default instructions ??? I'm asking because there are instructions that are hard coded and since they are this could be the reason to be unavailable.

Some are hard coded into the Role, and some are hard coded out.

The UI doesn't make this clear enough at the moment, but I'm sure will be addressed in due course.