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Thread: Improving a players Current Ability (CA)

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    Default Improving a players Current Ability (CA)

    I have just found out about CA and PA which lead me to the eventual step of finding a program (Genie Scout) to read such numbers. I was hesitant to have such a corrupting tool but I just couldn't help myself and the chance to see the past 9 years of managing was too much.

    Turns out, I'm a terrible scout, most of my players were below average Premier quality in terms of CA and PA. Not all however were so bad as I was bound to find some great players one of them being a MC with a PA of 191. His skill on the pitch did not need this number to prove but nonetheless I kept a casual eye on his CA which in the span of 1.5 years had moved up only 1 (174 to 175). I figure this was because he was past development at 26.

    Having made it to the Champions League I found myself that summer in need of some depth and when Arsenal proposed 20 million quid I was confident I could not only get a younger, quality replacement, I could also get another striker.

    I came away fairly pleased with myself but to my horror I checked a half a season later and found that he had jumped up 5 CA while going to Arsenal. I have no reason not to believe by the end of this year he will have improved by 10 overall.

    For me performance trumps PA or CA but I can't help but feel annoyed that my players growth is being stunted. I have a 7 star staff, I have Darkstar's training and the midfielder had gotten a lot of minutes. Arsenal's facilities are only a little better and I don't think this is the difference.

    So what increases a players CA, I've read on the forum about it but I have nothing to believe that Arsenal is doing anything different. I heard Jadedness plays a role in development of players in their prime, is that true?
    Last edited by Mr.G 24; 07-08-2008 at 07:22.

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    Default Re: Improving a players Current Ability (CA)

    Training. Playing games. And that's it. I think.

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    Default Re: Improving a players Current Ability (CA)

    I presume you're team is also an English Premier team? If so, my only guess would be that Arsenal's higher reputation (another presumption) has given him a small boost.

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    Default Re: Improving a players Current Ability (CA)

    I think the four biggest factors in CA rise are:

    1. Playing time
    2. Level of competition(s) playing in
    3. Tutoring
    4. Morale

    However, I could see a number of other things being different between you and Arsenal:

    5. Coaches
    6. Facilities
    7. Level of competition on the training pitch ("competition for places")
    8. Training schedule
    9. Relationships with players / staff / club

    If I were taking a simple guess, I'd hazard that the factors playing in to this rise are the level of competitions (assuming Arsenal are playing in the C.L. and you had not been, prior to this season), level of competition on the training pitch (assuming the average Arsenal player is better than your average player), training facilities ("slight" difference or no), improved morale (if Arsenal are winning more consistently than you do), and possibly even just determination to prove himself at a new club combined with the confidence boost of moving to such a highly regarded club for such a large fee.

    Last, I don't see any reason to assume that the 5-point increase by winter projects out to a 10-point increase over the season .. just not sure its enough data!

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    Default Re: Improving a players Current Ability (CA)

    Yea I agree Am. I think that the small boost he would get from moving to a "bigger" club could at least be a few points, and if Arsenals training facilities are even a little better, that could potentially have massive impact.

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    Default Re: Improving a players Current Ability (CA)

    Not to mention, you already have scouts to scout for you. You only have to listen to them ;-)

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    Default Re: Improving a players Current Ability (CA)

    Older players require consecutive string of games to improve, don't rotate until the the jadedness rating close to 300, like what the computer controlled teams do.

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    Default Re: Improving a players Current Ability (CA)

    there was a big problem in fm08 in youngsters not reaching anywhere near potential due to them not gaining enough C/A points per year - hopefully this will be fixed for 09

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    Default Re: Improving a players Current Ability (CA)

    ????

    Private Pyle, I think that's the idea - the game is exceptionally boring if you "know" that a player's CA will eventually match his PA.

    As it stands in FM'08, you have to get a bunch of factors "right" to reach a massive PA: getting competitive matches at the right levels from a young age, successful tutoring, good facilities and coaches, no injuries ...

    I think that's just like real life: we hear all the time about players with tremendous potential who squander their gifts, or just never reach the level they were hyped to reach.

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    Default Re: Improving a players Current Ability (CA)

    Quote Originally Posted by Amaroq View Post
    ????

    Private Pyle, I think that's the idea - the game is exceptionally boring if you "know" that a player's CA will eventually match his PA.

    As it stands in FM'08, you have to get a bunch of factors "right" to reach a massive PA: getting competitive matches at the right levels from a young age, successful tutoring, good facilities and coaches, no injuries ...

    I think that's just like real life: we hear all the time about players with tremendous potential who squander their gifts, or just never reach the level they were hyped to reach.
    ....Wayne Rooney anyone? *hides*

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    Default Re: Improving a players Current Ability (CA)

    Amaroq, although i generally agree with what you're saying i would like to make a couple of points.

    Firstly, unless external utilities are used, we wouldn't know the PA of players (apart from an indication from scout/coach/ass man reports which would have a degree of ambiguity) and therefore the knowledge that players always reach their PA is less significant, as we shouldn't know with certainty what their PA is.

    Secondly, although i agree that players should not always reach their potential, unfortunately the game has a large imbalance between the quality of newgens when compared to 'real' players in the database. As a result, in my game atleast, in 2017 nearly all top clubs and countries still have around 90% 'real' players in their squad and there are very few top quality newgens.

    I guess the solution is either that the AI becomes better at developing their talent or the game goes back to being easier for increasing CA in general.

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    Default Re: Improving a players Current Ability (CA)

    Your "secondly" is my biggest gripe with the game as it stands - I completely agree.

    I suspect that its an AI Manager problem: AI managers don't seem to be aggressive enough about getting their promising youth loans-out, and playing time with the first team .. so the players don't get the playing time that they need to see the "correct" CA rise.

    You can see this in microcosm by playing the MLS, and watching it - the MLS draft generates newgens with correct PA for MLS players, but a CA too low, so they never get playing time, so they never reach anything close to their PA ... but if the human player takes care of his players, loaning them out appropriately and blooding them appropriately, he is able to get his players to or close to their PA .. which results in the human-managed team dominating MLS after a few seasons.

    So, I definitely agree there!

    To the first point, I agree somewhat - we shouldn't know the exact PA of players, and I think FM'08 has done a very good job of setting us up with a system which "disguises" that a bit .. giving scope for late bloomers and busts.

    However, my point is a general comment, based on playing lots of games in this genre over .. 20 years now? YiPeS! .. in all sorts of sports, from footie to American football to baseball to hockey to horse racing. If you can tell that a player is going to develop, it makes the game too easy - it becomes about accumulating the players with a high potential, and then you just reap the benefits.

    For example, lets say that I signed up 40 of the highest PA youth in the game, whether its thanks to Genie Scout, great scouting, or pure luck. If the system ensures that they all develop, five years on my Reserve team is going to be better than Brazil. If, on the other hand, the system is complex enough to ensure that, gee, those 17-year-olds whom I'm relying on to start match in and match out crack under the pressure .. while those 17-year-olds who aren't getting more than Reserve team appearances don't get sufficiently challenged to develop ... then despite Genie Scout, five years down the line I'm looking at a bunch of human wreckage and failed development.

    Why?

    Because I haven't managed them successfully.

    I think that's a very good mechanic .. and its one of the aspects of FM that I love, that I think SI have gotten "right" where a lot of other developers in a lot of sports have failed to.

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    Default Re: Improving a players Current Ability (CA)

    When I played FM08, I hated the fact that players didn't develop quickly enough. Compared to 07 where it seems so easy to nuture amazing talent.

    No, after playing a long term game - I think it is brilliant. You have to give alot of attention to these players, making sure you set up good tutors, good training, good loans etc. I feels much better when he finally breaks into the first team. The only problem I have with this is that you don't get the rare talents like Cesc, Messi who are world beaters at a very young age. I'm not asking for alot of them but you don't seem to get any in FM08.

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    Default Re: Improving a players Current Ability (CA)

    I've been playing FM a lot for years but only just realised the benefit of tutoring. I never used it before. I bought Sakho on a free at the start of the game and immediately set Rio Ferdinand to tutor him, by the age of 19 his CA/PA was 170/178 and by 20 his CA went to 177. After the success of this I used tutoring to help my other youngsters and it worked for the most part. The only downside is finding possible tutors, some aren't so successful working together and I've even found some senior players refuse to help altogether

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    Default Re: Improving a players Current Ability (CA)

    fm07 is far more rewarding in training , this is one of the reasons i like it more .
    The trick behind improving CA in 08 with training is to avoid very hard schedules , too much 1st team football for youngsters is bad too.

    FMM is great for experimentation but you do have to replay a season for like 10 times before getting a clue on how things work (and it is very boring trying to figure out if and how morale plays a role in development)

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    Default Re: Improving a players Current Ability (CA)

    There's also adaptation - I think players who don't know the language develop slower, as do players who haven't adapted yet.

    Tutoring seems to have a large impact if it succeeds - I have a 17-year-old at 120/181 at the moment, his CA having gone up by 12 in 1 month, and I think it's down to the mental attributes his mentor is giving him - it's impossible he's increased it that high unless I've put him in the first-team of Serie A for every single match.

    I think the key to youngsters developing is to shift them out on loan very early to teams that will not only give them experience in the first-team but have excellent facilities to develop them. Those teams are difficult to find. I was lucky enough to ship one of my strikers to a no-hoper Reading team who are predicted to finish 18th - and he appears to be important to them.

    Injuries are another thing to avoid - 1-2 months injury is fairly detrimental to a youngster. Too many youngsters in real life have had their careers ruined through injury, which is a shame.

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    Default Re: Improving a players Current Ability (CA)

    Quote Originally Posted by small Mac View Post
    I presume you're team is also an English Premier team? If so, my only guess would be that Arsenal's higher reputation (another presumption) has given him a small boost.
    That's well wide. Doesn't affect ability.

    Amoroq got it pretty much correct AFAIK.

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    Default Re: Improving a players Current Ability (CA)

    Quote Originally Posted by SCIAG View Post
    That's well wide. Doesn't affect ability.

    Amoroq got it pretty much correct AFAIK.
    Do you know this for a fact? I haven't tested it but my thinking behind it is that if a player moves from say Portsmouth to Man U, he's going to start improving.

    Of course Amaroq's answers are alot more accurate, but you also have to remember how the game applies these qualitative reasons into quantitave changes. How does the game measure 'level of competition on the training pitch'? My guess would be possibly club reputation, as this represents a comparative level of ability to a degree.

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    Default Re: Improving a players Current Ability (CA)

    in 07 my young players develop way faster playing in the non active national division C (my B squad) rather than playing as starters in my regular squad . Regular squad rept. 8.000 , B squad rept. 2.000 . Players on loan to Siena , Tarragona and Bohum (my feeders) develop slower than my starters.
    Maybe 08 works differently tho .

    -Notice , i have completely removed injuries from the game.

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    Default Re: Improving a players Current Ability (CA)

    Quote Originally Posted by small Mac View Post
    How does the game measure 'level of competition on the training pitch'? My guess would be possibly club reputation, as this represents a comparative level of ability to a degree.
    I'm more thinking along the lines of having higher quality players in the team, just as much as the other team might have a lot better training facilities, which increases your efficiency (and perhaps ambition/determination) to train. After all, you now have a proper workout room instead of doing the same in the backgarden.

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    Default Re: Improving a players Current Ability (CA)

    Quote Originally Posted by Neji View Post
    The only problem I have with this is that you don't get the rare talents like Cesc, Messi who are world beaters at a very young age. I'm not asking for alot of them but you don't seem to get any in FM08.
    I used to think this too but I recently got a Brazilian regen keeper who's classed as a wonderkid and is almost at 180 CA at the age of 20, which does match the rate of development of the non-regen wonderkids I think. So it's possible, just rare.

    Last edited by Wen1234; 11-08-2008 at 10:36.

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    Default Re: Improving a players Current Ability (CA)

    Improving CA is definitely possible, me and my brother played a file as Newcastle and he was QPR. He managed to buy Cedric Konan from Lecce in his first season for 2.1mil (which turned out to be a fantastic price). For those of you who don't know Konan, his potential according to Newcastle's chief scout (a spanish guy named Marcos who doesn't originally start at the Toon) was considered as leading championship striker in the future. However, he fired QPR into the Premiership and his statistics have dramatically improved (I have on many occasions, considered poaching him from my brother)... he is now considered a good premier division striker and is consistently high in the top scorers charts. My possible explanation is the fact that he is fairly young, it does however prove that a higher division, more minutes and better coaches do in fact improve players who are in good form also.

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    Default Re: Improving a players Current Ability (CA)

    playing time.....training facilities....to whom you assign him to be tutored....

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    Default Re: Improving a players Current Ability (CA)

    How do you know whom to tutor a rising star or do you just guess?

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    Default Re: Improving a players Current Ability (CA)

    Quote Originally Posted by B2DN View Post
    How do you know whom to tutor a rising star or do you just guess?
    Your coaches sometimes make a recommendation in the coach report section of a players profile. I always look at this before I decide who to pick.

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    Default Re: Improving a players Current Ability (CA)

    You can use a couple of mechanisms:

    1. Coach reports from your best JCA/JPA coach may suggest a good match
    2. Favoured personnel are usually a good match
    3. Similar "Personality" (e.g., Determined, Professional, Light-Hearted, etc) are usually a good match
    4. Similar mental attributes (Determination, Work Rate, Teamwork, etc.)

    Personally, however, that's not quite what I use .. its a little harder to explain.

    I usually have one 30-36-year-old "star tutor" at each major position, and I try to match him up with the highest potential youth player that I have at that position as an "Ideal Role Model". That's the highest-risk, highest-reward tutoring approach. Sometimes that doesn't take, obviously, but I find that those respected, high-Influence veterans - especially if they have been at the team for a long time and are still seeing regular playing time - are my most effective tutors, and can go a long way towards changing a youth players' personality to make them a better match with my squad. They're also the most likely to succeed on these "Ideal" partnerships.

    Once I've got those pairings lined up, I go through the remainder of my team and set up other mentor relationships with lower risk, lower reward tutorings. For my second tier of talent, my next-best-potential youth and my peak-of-their-game starters, I typically use the "Adopt Approach" one. I forget the exact wording, but its the middle-risk, middle-reward one. I use it for most of those pairings, as well as some of my rotational players.

    Finally, I'll make a pass through any remaining youth, pairing them up with whomever is left, until I have exhausted all possible youth or all possible tutors, whichever comes first. By this point, I'm usually using "Could Learn From", which is the least useful tutoring but is also the most likely to result in a successful pairing. The youth are usually down in my U-18s, and their mentors may well be rotation players or even pure Reserve players. I may also use that relationship to "break a player in gently" if either the tutor or the youth is a new signing.

    I try to steer clear of setting up tutorings when I am planning on sending a player out on loan, or transfer-listing a player - I think that abruptly severing the link like that does enough harm that it outweighs the marginal good it might acheive to have them linked for a couple weeks.
    Last edited by Amaroq; 09-10-2008 at 21:36.

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    Default Re: Improving a players Current Ability (CA)

    Quote Originally Posted by small Mac View Post
    Do you know this for a fact? I haven't tested it but my thinking behind it is that if a player moves from say Portsmouth to Man U, he's going to start improving.

    Of course Amaroq's answers are alot more accurate, but you also have to remember how the game applies these qualitative reasons into quantitave changes. How does the game measure 'level of competition on the training pitch'? My guess would be possibly club reputation, as this represents a comparative level of ability to a degree.
    There's training facilities...

    I've tested a fair bit. Not a lot, but a fair bit. I'm pretty sure rep does not affect CA in the slightest.

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    Default Re: Improving a players Current Ability (CA)

    I tested this recently with CA and PAs over the span of a yearish.
    I made a backup copy of my game and used geniescout to find top PA players from 7th of Aug 2014 to 15 June 2015.

    Regen1 - Aug 2014 CA 133/196
    June 2015 CA 151/196
    (Midfielder, aged 20, on loan at Roma, played half of the games in season, subbed/started)

    Regen2 - Aug 2014 CA 76/195
    June 2015 CA 88/195
    (Midfielder, aged 16, had a few games at my club)

    Regen3 - Aug 2014 CA 118/186
    June 2015 CA 132/186
    (Goalkeeper, aged 20, first team action at SPL side)

    Regen4 - Aug 2014 CA 144/184
    June 2015 CA 154/184
    (Attacking midfielder, aged 21, on loan at EPL side, Birmingham, first team starter)

    Regen5 - Aug 2014 CA 151/199
    June 2015 CA 163/199
    (Central Defender, aged 21, claims first team spot at my club)

    Regen6 - June 2014 CA 170/199
    Aug 2015 CA 180/199
    (Striker, aged 22,on loan at Sunderland, EPL holders, is a keymember and plays champions league games)

    I just did this randomly one day cause I wanted to see how regens were developing, I havnt looked into it much but if you have questions just ask/message.

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    Default Re: Improving a players Current Ability (CA)

    Quote Originally Posted by SCIAG View Post
    There's training facilities...

    I've tested a fair bit. Not a lot, but a fair bit. I'm pretty sure rep does not affect CA in the slightest.
    Sorry for double post but I think rep only affects whether I player thinks its a good league to go to.
    I tested this aswell and found that if you increase the league rep more players will want to come and the price of players in that league will increase faster than normal and/or achieve a higher level.

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    Default Re: Improving a players Current Ability (CA)

    Good coaches and soem careful training techniques.

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