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Thread: Tactics FM14

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    Default Tactics FM14

    I love my tactics on the FM series. However i am wondering (as quite literally i cannot be bothered after a 12 hour shift at work to look through the forums. Please dont delete this mods!!!) if the tactical revamp on FM14 will see us be able to set player postions when we have and do not have the ball.

    For example, wen teams play a narrow 3, without the ball the wingers drop back and create a midfield 5 thats hard to break down. I would love that diversity and abi.ity to dig deeper into the tactical side of the game (especially as im giong to take my level 1 coaching badge b4 xmas)

    Can anyone help with this info???

    Thanks in advance my fellow FMers.. back to my valencia save... down barca and real DOWN!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mihalis View Post
    I love my tactics on the FM series. However i am wondering (as quite literally i cannot be bothered after a 12 hour shift at work to look through the forums. Please dont delete this mods!!!) if the tactical revamp on FM14 will see us be able to set player postions when we have and do not have the ball.

    For example, wen teams play a narrow 3, without the ball the wingers drop back and create a midfield 5 thats hard to break down. I would love that diversity and abi.ity to dig deeper into the tactical side of the game (especially as im giong to take my level 1 coaching badge b4 xmas)

    Can anyone help with this info???

    Thanks in advance my fellow FMers.. back to my valencia save... down barca and real DOWN!!!
    The only thing anyone can say to you is to wait for more information from SI. It will come. Everyone must just be patient.

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    Thank u buddy

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    I'd be very surprised if they brought back wibble / wobble. Personally I would like a bit more control over this again too though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mihalis View Post
    I love my tactics on the FM series. However i am wondering (as quite literally i cannot be bothered after a 12 hour shift at work to look through the forums. Please dont delete this mods!!!) if the tactical revamp on FM14 will see us be able to set player postions when we have and do not have the ball.

    For example, wen teams play a narrow 3, without the ball the wingers drop back and create a midfield 5 thats hard to break down. I would love that diversity and abi.ity to dig deeper into the tactical side of the game (especially as im giong to take my level 1 coaching badge b4 xmas)

    Can anyone help with this info???

    Thanks in advance my fellow FMers.. back to my valencia save... down barca and real DOWN!!!
    Quote Originally Posted by Spikey View Post
    I'd be very surprised if they brought back wibble / wobble. Personally I would like a bit more control over this again too though.
    With/Without ball never left the game.

    The formation you select and the defensive instructions you give are your "Without Ball" while the roles/duties & attacking instructions you give are your "With Ball".

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    I hope that amongst new roles we will be able to select inside forwards for players in ML/MR positions without touching sliders. In defence 4411, in attack 4231, just like Swansea.

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    I don't like the current tactics system because IMO it misses the main point in real tactics. In real football coaches give instructions to players and these given instructions form the role that player plays. In FM tactics you don't have to give instructions at all, you just pick a role that is pre-made for you. IMO that fact destroys all skill requirements and tactical identities in the game. For example if you use 4-2-3-1 and create the tactic only with tactics creator, there will be about 5 million other managers that will use exactly the same tactics you do. Where's your tactical identity then? And what makes you better manager than others?

    That's why I would love to see more micro tweaking things in FM tactics in the future. Things that make you able to get your team play exactly in the way that you like. These things would also increase the risk of making tactical errors and so on. Simply more realism.

    Any comments from SI are more than welcome.
    Last edited by El Payaso; 20-08-2013 at 09:50.

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    Quote Originally Posted by El Payaso View Post
    I don't like the current tactics system because IMO it misses the main point in real tactics. In real football coaches give instructions to players and these given instructions form the role that player plays. In FM tactics you don't have to give instructions at all, you just pick a role that is pre-made for you. IMO that fact destroys all skill requirements and tactical identities in the game. For example if you use 4-2-3-1 and create the tactic only with tactics creator, there will be about 5 million other managers that will use exactly the same tactics you do. Where's your tactical identity then? And what makes you better manager than others?

    That's why I would love to see more micro tweaking things in FM tactics in the future. Things that make you able to get your team play exactly in the way that you like. These things would also increase the risk of making tactical errors and so on. Simply more realism.
    In FM tactics you don't have to give instructions at all, you just pick a role that is pre-made for you.
    You do give instructions, the shouts. You can also edit the options of the role.

    A role is built on a specific concept that exists in real life. Could we have more roles? Definitely.

    IMO that fact destroys all skill requirements and tactical identities in the game.
    It 100% does not. Football is built on concepts. The TC uses the same concepts, though it can certainly have more added to it. Micro teweaking sliders by one point left/right isn't really anything to with having more skill or understanding though.

    there will be about 5 million other managers that will use exactly the same tactics you do.
    There are something like 2 million combinations between the Current TC and the shouts. People will tend to gravitate towards similar popular set ups because they mirror the current trends, the 4-2-3-1 for example.

    Where's your tactical identity then? And what makes you better manager than others?
    Have a look round the tactical discussion threads for how many people do create their own tactical identity.

    That's why I would love to see more micro tweaking things in FM tactics in the future. Things that make you able to get your team play exactly in the way that you like. These things would also increase the risk of making tactical errors and so on. Simply more realism.
    There is already plenty of scope for tactical errors. Micro tweaking the sliders isn't the same as more realism though. Could certainly do with more options within the TC though, particularly in in terms of controlling lateral.

    Frankly I'd remove the sliders in their entirety, while greatly expanding the TC, so that everything is done in "footballing language".
    Last edited by themadsheep2001; 20-08-2013 at 09:57.

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    Quote Originally Posted by themadsheep2001 View Post
    You do give instructions, the shouts.
    Yeah you can give instructions but you don't have to.

    Quote Originally Posted by themadsheep2001 View Post
    You can also edit the options of the role.

    A role is built on a specific concept that exists in real life. Could we have more roles? Definitely.
    Roles do exist but only when you analyze tactics. As a manager, you can't just pick a role out of the air, you will have to create it by telling a player what you want him to do in different situations.



    Quote Originally Posted by themadsheep2001 View Post
    It 100% does not. Football is built on concepts. The TC uses the same concepts, though it can certainly have more added to it. Micro teweaking sliders by one point left/right isn't really anything to with having more skill or understanding though.
    For me it does. That's because I've played different versions of this game and with tactics creator I do know things that basically always work no matter what team I'm controlling. Sad but true.



    Quote Originally Posted by themadsheep2001 View Post
    There are something like 2 million combinations between the Current TC and the shouts. People will tend to gravitate towards similar popular set ups because they mirror the current trends, the 4-2-3-1 for example.
    Yeah 2 million combinations but you can't tell that all of these are used by someone. In real football you can easily say that every manager have their own identity. That's because they have create their style of play from a scratch. In real tactics or style of plays you have to instruct your team in passing, movement and so on. In FM you don't have to do anything if you don't like to.

    Quote Originally Posted by themadsheep2001 View Post
    There is already plenty of scope for tactical errors.
    Such as? With ready-made roles you will have to be quite unaware of football if you do not succeed.

    Quote Originally Posted by themadsheep2001 View Post
    Micro tweaking the sliders isn't the same as more realism though. Could certainly do with more options within the TC though, particularly in in terms of controlling lateral.
    Maybe not realism but atleast it "forced" us to make our own style of plays from the scratch. I'm not saying that SI should go back to sliders but I would like to have more challenge, control and better tactical identity that also shows in the match engine when you watch your team playing. Also stats seem to be quite identical no matter what team you control or what kind of tactics you are using. The main pleasure for me in the game was when I got my team to play in the way I like. For example in FM 2008 I got Lampard scoring 20-30 goals per season from central midfiel position. Now that kind of things seem impossible no matter how you instruct your team.

    Quote Originally Posted by themadsheep2001 View Post
    Frankly I'd remove the sliders in their entirety, while greatly expanding the TC, so that everything is done in "footballing language".
    Yes, with a real tactical overhaul it would be possible to get rid of sliders, agreed.

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    Yeah you can give instructions but you don't have to.
    You don't have to in real football either. Some managers constantly do it (Mourinho) some rarely do (Del Bosque)

    Roles do exist but only when you analyze tactics. As a manager, you can't just pick a role out of the air, you will have to create it by telling a player what you want him to do in different situations.
    You are telling him what to do when you pick a specific role and duty.

    For me it does. That's because I've played different versions of this game and with tactics creator I do know things that basically always work no matter what team I'm controlling. Sad but true.
    Yes but thats not how it is. The TC is built on the logic that went with sliders in the first place. So it's impossible for it to destroy skill or understanding. And fiddling around with the sliders contrary to the logic and theory they were written in isn't more skill or understanding. Trying to find the "sweet spot" with a slider setting is nothing to do with realism, but gaming the engine ( not aimed at you by the way, its a general point)

    Yeah 2 million combinations but you can't tell that all of these are used by someone. In real football you can easily say that every manager have their own identity. That's because they have create their style of play from a scratch. In real tactics or style of plays you have to instruct your team in passing, movement and so on. In FM you don't have to do anything if you don't like to.
    Im FM you can create your own identity with the TC, thats a fact. Same as in real life. Managers have their own identity in real life, but they are not all totally unique, there will be and are similarities, because there are eventually a finite number of real life football concepts. Pellegrini, Martino and Guardiola this season are all playing different ways, but there are lots of similarities in their set ups. And so it is in FM.

    Maybe not realism but atleast it "forced" us to make our own style of plays from the scratch. I'm not saying that SI should go back to sliders but I would like to have more challenge, control and better tactical identity that also shows in the match engine when you watch your team playing. Also stats seem to be quite identical no matter what team you control or what kind of tactics you are using. The main pleasure for me in the game was when I got my team to play in the way I like. For example in FM 2008 I got Lampard scoring 20-30 goals per season from central midfield position. Now that kind of things seem impossible no matter how you instruct your team.
    It stops you wasting several hours picking the same setting you largely pick would anyway, I have always played fluid/balanced/rigid in FM. Before the TC, in TTF09 they would have been called 5x5, role theory and bands of two . The general settings I used have not really deviated in about 5 years. Yet before the TC it would have taken me 6 hours to create a tactics set identical to the one i use now in FM which takes 15 minutes. Thats nearly 6 hours I don't have to waste picking the same settings I would anyway.

    I think I understand what you are trying to get at from the tactical side, but you'd be suprised how much of it is there already. But I think we are both in agreement that much more can be added to the TC.

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    I too would like to see more information on the tactical side. This will make up my mind if I decide to buy or wait till FM15.
    Looking at the screen shots imo it looks as if they have just changed the way the existing tactics are presented except that you can now set up multiple roles prior to the game starting for each player. In the old slider system the new shouts used to be sliders and I am wondering if they have made the sliders now for the player instructions as like the shouts are.

    I am also interested to know if the 'match plans' are in the full version of the game and not just FM classic as this would be good if you have a touchline ban and then you can tell your assistant how he is to approach the game for you.

    I would also like to know if OI's will still be included in the game - I micromanage and do set these myself but do hate doing it as it is a long task at times.

    It would be useful for a blog to be done by Miles for the tactical overhaul of the game.
    Last edited by wazza; 20-08-2013 at 13:44.

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    Quote Originally Posted by themadsheep2001 View Post
    It stops you wasting several hours picking the same setting you largely pick would anyway, I have always played fluid/balanced/rigid in FM. Before the TC, in TTF09 they would have been called 5x5, role theory and bands of two . The general settings I used have not really deviated in about 5 years. Yet before the TC it would have taken me 6 hours to create a tactics set identical to the one i use now in FM which takes 15 minutes. Thats nearly 6 hours I don't have to waste picking the same settings I would anyway.
    If we do not wish to completely agree with and play by the rules the TC has laid out, we still have to go through those 6 hours.

    That's my biggest beef really. While the TC is fast and simple, you'll lose all that comfort in a blink of an eye if you want to fiddle a bit with your set-up. Combine that with the suppressing "Do not touch the sliders" dogma leaves one very little room with their tactics.

    I wonder how nuts Guardiola would've gone if he couldn't have told Alves to overlap his winger without telling the same to Abidal.

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    Quote Originally Posted by däkkä View Post
    I wonder how nuts Guardiola would've gone if he couldn't have told Alves to overlap his winger without telling the same to Abidal.
    Are you trying to say you can't do this with the TC? Because that's wrong...

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    Quote Originally Posted by HUNT3R View Post
    Are you trying to say you can't do this with the TC? Because that's wrong...
    You categorically can not.

    Just check what 'Look for overlap' does.

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    Quote Originally Posted by däkkä View Post
    You categorically can not.

    Just check what 'Look for overlap' does.
    I know what "look for overlap" does. You can still get your fullback to overlap without it. Also, Dani Alves didn't really overlap anyone since he was basically alone on the right flank, but I understand the point you were trying to make.

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    You can get your full-back to overlap but not in the manner of the 'Look for overlap' shout. There's absolutely no way of applying 'look for overlap' on the right flank and not on the left flank without manually overriding sliders. Maybe I should've made that explicitly clear because it seems you are feeling very beside the point and pedantic...

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    Quote Originally Posted by däkkä View Post
    You can get your full-back to overlap but not in the manner of the 'Look for overlap' shout. There's absolutely no way of applying 'look for overlap' on the right flank and not on the left flank without manually overriding sliders. Maybe I should've made that explicitly clear because it seems you are feeling very beside the point and pedantic...
    Beside the point? The point you made was that you can't make one flank overlap the winger without doing the same to the other flank. I said you can. I answered the point you tried to make.

    Anyway... I just got my left back to overlap my left winger while the right back stays pretty far back. I did it by using the "look for overlap" shout too and without touching sliders.

    DL: FB/A
    AML: IF/S
    DR: FB/D
    AMR: IF/A

    Edit: It might have worked with a DR : FB/S, but I just tried it very quickly.

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    Playing a FB/A and an IF/S isn't the same as applying to 'Look for overlap' to any possible combination of TC roles. Look for overlap is always capable of more extreme overlapping. It seems that you really don't know what changes 'Look for overlap' actually does.

    So maybe you missed this part in my previous post:

    There's absolutely no way of applying 'look for overlap' on the right flank and not on the left flank without manually overriding sliders.

    If you still didn't read it:

    There's absolutely no way.
    Of applying 'look for overlap'.
    On the right flank and not on the left flank.
    Without manually overriding sliders.


    I wonder how nuts Guardiola would've gone if he couldn't have told Alves to overlap his winger without telling the same to Abidal.
    Can you make yourself understand that in this context 'overlap his winger' is a substitute for 'Look for overlap' due to catchiness in a final paragraph and be done with this nitpicking BS?
    Last edited by däkkä; 20-08-2013 at 18:43.

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    Quote Originally Posted by däkkä View Post
    Playing a FB/A and an IF/S isn't the same as applying to 'Look for overlap' to any possible combination of TC roles. Look for overlap is always capable of more extreme overlapping. It seems that you really don't know what changes 'Look for overlap' actually does.

    So maybe you missed this part in my previous post:

    There's absolutely no way of applying 'look for overlap' on the right flank and not on the left flank without manually overriding sliders.

    If you still didn't read it:

    There's absolutely no way.
    Of applying 'look for overlap'.
    On the right flank and not on the left flank.
    Without manually overriding sliders.
    Did you read my post? I used the "look for overlap shout". So I had "extreme overlapping" on the left side, WHILE having ZERO overlapping on the right. No sliders touched. I know it still applies the effects of the shout on the right flank too, but FB/D took care of that. I know it still affects the IF/A, but without manual adjustments, that cannot be fixed.

    I know what you're trying to say. I know you can't "apply" a shout to only affect one flank etc, but there are ways of mostly getting round it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HUNT3R View Post
    I know what "look for overlap" does. You can still get your fullback to overlap without it. Also, Dani Alves didn't really overlap anyone since he was basically alone on the right flank, but I understand the point you were trying to make.
    You can, just by changing the roles ( and I dont mean sliders). Its exactly what I do. Could it be made easier with a left right option added, pretty sure I saw that in the FM14 screenshots

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    Quote Originally Posted by themadsheep2001 View Post
    You can, just by changing the roles ( and I dont mean sliders). Its exactly what I do. Could it be made easier with a left right option added, pretty sure I saw that in the FM14 screenshots
    I do this too. I only use the "look for overlap" shout if I'm playing against a stubborn defence parking the bus. Throw on a few beanpoles, sit back and watch the devastation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by däkkä View Post
    If we do not wish to completely agree with and play by the rules the TC has laid out, we still have to go through those 6 hours.

    That's my biggest beef really. While the TC is fast and simple, you'll lose all that comfort in a blink of an eye if you want to fiddle a bit with your set-up. Combine that with the suppressing "Do not touch the sliders" dogma leaves one very little room with their tactics.

    I wonder how nuts Guardiola would've gone if he couldn't have told Alves to overlap his winger without telling the same to Abidal.
    The do not touch sliders isnt dogma, because isnt what was said. What was aid was that if you don't understand the sliders, you're advised to not use them. Which is basic common sense. And the bold bit is actually dogma because you have a suprising amount of freedom without ever needing to touch the slights.

    I wonder how nuts Guardiola would've gone if he couldn't have told Alves to overlap his winger without telling the same to Abidal.
    I wouldn't know, since I can do this with the TC without touching sliders anyway.

    You still wouldn't need to go through the 6 hours regardless.

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    Yeah, you can mitigate a fundamental design mistake by completely ripping your set-up apart. You're compromising 5 instructions to get 1 right. All that because SI couldn't figure a more dynamic tactical system during the lifespan of TC.

    It's shocking that people stand up to such a rigid system. No wonder the tactical system is nearly in a halt and the "ME" development is focusing on 3D aesthetics. People want their players to wear different coloured boots and more goal celebrations instead of actual development in the ME.

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    Quote Originally Posted by däkkä View Post
    Yeah, you can mitigate a fundamental design mistake by completely ripping your set-up apart. You're compromising 5 instructions to get 1 right. All that because SI couldn't figure a more dynamic tactical system during the lifespan of TC.

    It's shocking that people stand up to such a rigid system. No wonder the tactical system is nearly in a halt and the "ME" development is focusing on 3D aesthetics. People want their players to wear different coloured boots and more goal celebrations instead of actual development in the ME.
    What are you talking about? I don't have to do anything of the sort

    You wouldn't have Abidal and Alves on the same role anyway for example. That's why you would have one player overlapping with out the other.

    Also dont know if you looked at the screenshots, but there are clearly changes in the TC coming
    Last edited by themadsheep2001; 20-08-2013 at 19:13.

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    I'd like to see the sliders and classic tactics done away with and expand the TC more, especially now with these individual player settings they're bringing in, it should make it more flexible and interesting. I also remember on a much earlier version of the game on the tactics screen you could click areas of the pitch and it would show how your players were positioned when the ball was in that area, you could also move the players around which gave more control. Be cool if they bought this back. And hopefull more options to set up set pieces would be good.

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    Quote Originally Posted by themadsheep2001 View Post
    What are you talking about? I don't have to do anything of the sort

    You wouldn't have Abidal and Alves on the same role anyway for example. That's why you would have one player overlapping with out the other.
    Ok, your starting roles are: FBs Abidal, WBa Alves, ahead 2x Wa.

    Get Alves to overlap and Abidal not without compromising their or the wingers' unrelated instructions (such as CF, TTB, passing... the works).

    You have 6 hours and your time starts now!

    ...

    You can't do it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by themadsheep2001 View Post
    Also dont know if you looked at the screenshots, but there are clearly changes in the TC coming
    Yeah, I did glance at them.

    Babysteps.

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    Quote Originally Posted by däkkä View Post
    Ok, your starting roles are: FBs Abidal, WBa Alves, ahead 2x Wa.

    Get Alves to overlap and Abidal not without compromising their or the wingers' unrelated instructions (such as CF, TTB, passing... the works).

    You have 6 hours and your time starts now!

    ...

    You can't do it.
    Trick question, because you can't overlap a winger attacking pushing high and hugging the byline, which is why the look for overlap shout gives your wingers a lower mentality, run from deep rarely and hold up the ball.

    So to make Alves overlap my winger, switch my winger support in that side to winger support. My play isnnt compromised or fundamentally ripped up.

    also I dont know how we can judge how big or small the changes are yet based on the few screenshots, so I really dont see how you can say baby steps

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    Quote Originally Posted by themadsheep2001 View Post
    So to make Alves overlap my winger, switch my winger support in that side to winger support. My play isnnt compromised or fundamentally ripped up.
    And thus changing (off the top of my head at least) his tackling, marking, passing and CF instructions. And you don't get the HUB that 'Look for overlap' hands out either. This is exactly what I meant by compromising...

    I bet SI have more ideas but they are holding on to them releasing just a portion of them for each iteration. Simply because FM15's worst competitor will be FM14 it doesn't make sense for them to really strive for the best possible product. I imagine FM15 will feature 'Play more creative' and 'Play more disciplined' instructions for players... Just like this FM14 got 'Roam from position more' shout.

    Who could've thought of that a year earlier... Or better: who had the financial incentive of implementing that a year earlier?
    Last edited by däkkä; 20-08-2013 at 19:36.

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    Actually, I forgot what exactly the change is to the RFD of a winger. Does the shout reduce it by one notch (Often to sometimes / Sometimes to Rarely) or does it set it to Rarely regardless?

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    Quote Originally Posted by däkkä View Post
    And thus changing (off the top of my head at least) his tackling, marking, passing and CF instructions. This is exactly what I meant by compromising...

    I bet SI have more ideas but they are holding on to them releasing just a portion of them for each iteration. Simply because FM15's worst competitor will be FM14 it doesn't make sense for them to really strive for the best possible product. I imagine FM15 will feature 'Play more creative' and 'Play more disciplined' instructions for players... Just like this FM14 got 'Roam from position more' shout.

    Who could've thought of that a year earlier... Or better: who had the financial incentive of implementing that a year earlier?
    Except it doesn't compromise my approach, you asked how I would do it. That is how I do it, you can agree or disagree if you want, but I get the left sided overlap i want perfectly.

    I'm all for a tactical discussion and how things can go forward, but you're just gonna say people are holding it back because they dont agree with you, or deal in spurious speculation about what SI might or might not be doing ( despite having nothing to back it up) them I'm nout because's unconstructive and gets us nowhere.

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    It's just one notch although I don't see how's that essential.

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    Quote Originally Posted by däkkä View Post
    It's just one notch although I don't see how's that essential.
    It's not. I was just wondering.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HUNT3R View Post
    Actually, I forgot what exactly the change is to the RFD of a winger. Does the shout reduce it by one notch (Often to sometimes / Sometimes to Rarely) or does it set it to Rarely regardless?
    Not sure, I'd have to open it up, I don't like to overlap both flanks, which is why I do in that manner. I much prefer to create a lopsided threat, or isolate a specific player. I think it is rarely, but dont hold me to that. I get what I want from the support role, because I wouldnt want him not making the run now and then.

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    Quote Originally Posted by themadsheep2001 View Post
    Not sure, I'd have to open it up, I don't like to overlap both flanks, which is why I do in that manner. I much prefer to create a lopsided threat, or isolate a specific player. I think it is rarely, but dont hold me to that. I get what I want from the support role, because I wouldnt want him not making the run now and then.
    I do the same as you and I'm happy with the overlapping that I get as well. Imho, the "look for overlap" shout is only really something you should use if you're up against an ultra defensive team, which is why I rely on duties to create overlaps. Asking the Wingers/Inside Forwards to hold up the ball and with reduced mentality and rwb isn't a good idea as a standard tactic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by themadsheep2001 View Post
    Except it doesn't compromise my approach, you asked how I would do it. That is how I do it, you can agree or disagree if you want, but I get the left sided overlap i want perfectly.
    Well I think it's great the TC can serve your approach, but overlap through role changes does compromise a lot of instructions compared to the touchline instruction. If it didn't, the shout would not exist.

    I'm all for a tactical discussion and how things can go forward, but you're just gonna say people are holding it back because they dont agree with you, or deal in spurious speculation about what SI might or might not be doing ( despite having nothing to back it up) them I'm nout because's unconstructive and gets us nowhere.
    It's cool, I didn't expect you to have any arguments to defend such dragging development in the tactics department.

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    Quote Originally Posted by däkkä View Post
    Well I think it's great the TC can serve your approach, but overlap through role changes does compromise a lot of instructions compared to the touchline instruction. If it didn't, the shout would not exist.


    It's cool, I didn't expect you to have any arguments to defend such dragging development in the tactics department.
    Seriously, because of my views you want to get personal? I don't agree with, and we dont know enough yet. Not sure why that gets your back up so much you want to get personal.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HUNT3R View Post
    I do the same as you and I'm happy with the overlapping that I get as well. Imho, the "look for overlap" shout is only really something you should use if you're up against an ultra defensive team, which is why I rely on duties to create overlaps. Asking the Wingers/Inside Forwards to hold up the ball and with reduced mentality and rwb isn't a good idea as a standard tactic.
    Not really that much of a fan of hold up ball deep in the pitch general, don't like my players getting caught on the ball that deeps against pressing sides. That said its a source of joy when I press, as i often catch their DLP on the ball.

    Felt like the hold up was excessive in FM13 though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by themadsheep2001 View Post
    Seriously, because of my views you want to get personal? I don't agree with, and we dont know enough yet. Not sure why that gets your back up so much you want to get personal.
    Aren't you the one getting personal? I haven't called you any names or made any references to you in person. You on the other hand have suggested I am angry and that I can't handle people having other opinions to mine which is just nonsense and a cheap way out of a lost argument.

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    Quote Originally Posted by themadsheep2001 View Post
    You are telling him what to do when you pick a specific role and duty.
    For me this is the main stupidity in tactics creator. Instead of roling, you just pick a role out of the air. It's kinda like doing things the wrong way round if you get what I mean.
    For example John Obi Mikel said this in the summer:

    “I always try to do what my coaches tell me. At Chelsea, I have to play for the team and be more defensive. But in Nigeria, the coach allows me to express myself and I enjoy myself. Now, I have to find a balance between the two because it is important for my future.”

    He doesn't say that in Chelsea I'm an anchor man defend and in Nigeria I'm advanced playmaker support. That is how it goes in real football, you can't just pick a role out of the air. And also; who says that every manager in the world has exactly same kind of opinion how for example an anchorman is supposed to play.



    Quote Originally Posted by themadsheep2001 View Post
    Trying to find the "sweet spot" with a slider setting is nothing to do with realism
    That wasn't my way with the sliders. I used to look players' attributes and adjust the sliders so that I could get the best out of certain player's strenghts and minimize that player's weaknesses.



    Quote Originally Posted by themadsheep2001 View Post
    Im FM you can create your own identity with the TC, thats a fact. Same as in real life. Managers have their own identity in real life, but they are not all totally unique, there will be and are similarities, because there are eventually a finite number of real life football concepts. Pellegrini, Martino and Guardiola this season are all playing different ways, but there are lots of similarities in their set ups. And so it is in FM.
    You can but you don't have to. There are of course similarities in real football but impossible to find exactly matching style of plays. In FM all AI managers for example use only the tactics creator so you can easily think that there are thousands of teams that have exactly the same style of play. Sad but true once again.



    Quote Originally Posted by themadsheep2001 View Post
    It stops you wasting several hours picking the same setting you largely pick would anyway,
    This is odd, I've never spent even half an hour with creating a tactics. It has only taken only minutes but with sliders at least the tactic was made by me, not the game.

    Quote Originally Posted by themadsheep2001 View Post
    I have always played fluid/balanced/rigid in FM. Before the TC, in TTF09 they would have been called 5x5, role theory and bands of two . The general settings I used have not really deviated in about 5 years. Yet before the TC it would have taken me 6 hours to create a tactics set identical to the one i use now in FM which takes 15 minutes. Thats nearly 6 hours I don't have to waste picking the same settings I would anyway.
    I've never enjoyed things like buying too many players so I've always tried to find a super tactic for these certain players I've had. So with good tall central defenders I've played narrow and with good wingers I've used flanks to attack and so on. Nowadays it seems too much the same with every team. If you've played the game with one team, you have played it with every team. That is sadly how I've felt about tactics in recent versions.

    Quote Originally Posted by themadsheep2001 View Post
    I think I understand what you are trying to get at from the tactical side, but you'd be suprised how much of it is there already. But I think we are both in agreement that much more can be added to the TC.
    Aye. Nice to get some good conversation about this thing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by däkkä View Post
    Well I think it's great the TC can serve your approach, but overlap through role changes does compromise a lot of instructions compared to the touchline instruction. If it didn't, the shout would not exist.
    I'm trying to look it things another way... what does the shout give you that you feel you don't get with the duties? What exactly do you expect from your winger/inside forward on the overlapping side? What about the Winger/Inside Forward on the other side?

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    Quote Originally Posted by El Payaso View Post
    For me this is the main stupidity in tactics creator. Instead of roling, you just pick a role out of the air. It's kinda like doing things the wrong way round if you get what I mean.
    For example John Obi Mikel said this in the summer:

    “I always try to do what my coaches tell me. At Chelsea, I have to play for the team and be more defensive. But in Nigeria, the coach allows me to express myself and I enjoy myself. Now, I have to find a balance between the two because it is important for my future.”

    He doesn't say that in Chelsea I'm an anchor man defend and in Nigeria I'm advanced playmaker support. That is how it goes in real football, you can't just pick a role out of the air. And also; who says that every manager in the world has exactly same kind of opinion how for example an anchorman is supposed to play.
    I'm sorry, I don't agree at all. He said that in an interview. I'm willing to bet his coaches didn't tell him to "go play defensive" (unless it was 'arry, which it wasn't). They would have told him to "Sit between defence and midfield, intercept passes and lay off simple passes to your teammates" which is basically what the TC describes the Anchor Man role to be.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HUNT3R View Post
    I'm trying to look it things another way... what does the shout give you that you feel you don't get with the duties? What exactly do you expect from your winger/inside forward on the overlapping side? What about the Winger/Inside Forward on the other side?
    What I or you think is beside the point. We are not the experts.

    What the creators of TC & shouts system have thought matters. They know the game inside out.

    They obviously do not see Ws paired with a FBa to be a carbon copy of 'Look for overlap'.

    After inspecting the changes it makes, we can say the shout is more extreme (or at least capable of more extreme scenarios) and thus it is reasonable to expect it to be suitable to a more restricted environment like you mentioned earlier. It shifts the attacking responsability from the wide midfielder to the full-back to an extent that is unrivaled by possible TC role combinations, thus being a viable option when you have great attacking full back(s), space down the flank(s) or you need more passing options against defensive opponents.

    That is what the shout is meant to give and that is what I feel I can't get with roles/duties alone.

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    Quote Originally Posted by däkkä View Post
    What I or you think is beside the point. We are not the experts.

    What the creators of TC & shouts system have thought matters. They know the game inside out.

    They obviously do not see Ws paired with a FBa to be a carbon copy of 'Look for overlap'.

    After inspecting the changes it makes, we can say the shout is more extreme (or at least capable of more extreme scenarios) and thus it is reasonable to expect it to be suitable to a more restricted environment like you mentioned earlier. It shifts the attacking responsability from the wide midfielder to the full-back to an extent that is unrivaled by possible TC role combinations, thus being a viable option when you have great attacking full back(s), space down the flank(s) or you need more passing options against defensive opponents.

    That is what the shout is meant to give and that is what I feel I can't get with roles/duties alone.
    I don't think either myself or themadsheep said it's a carbon copy of the shout. It isn't. I think you're looking for something from the overlap shout that it wasn't designed to be used for. That's why I asked what you want the wingers to do. I know what I need from my players and I'm able to set them up, with overlapping and players moving between the lines. Only if I want to slow the game down completely, keep possession and get crosses into the box from my fullbacks when I have enough players in the box against a team that is ultra defensive and can be exploited in the air, do I use the "look for overlap" shout. Against the more adventurous opponents, you're going to slow the game down so much that you don't take advantage of the space they have created for you. You're going to give them the time to get back into their defensive positions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HUNT3R View Post
    I think you're looking for something from the overlap shout that it wasn't designed to be used for.
    Nope. All I have done is provided you objective analysis on the effects of the shout and usage suggested by trusted FM sources.

    You provide your own subjective opinions on the shout, which you seem to want to say differ from the reliable sources I base my facts upon.

    Quote Originally Posted by HUNT3R View Post
    I don't think either myself or themadsheep said it's a carbon copy of the shout. It isn't.
    So what are you arguing then?
    Last edited by däkkä; 20-08-2013 at 21:03.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HUNT3R View Post
    I'm willing to bet his coaches didn't tell him to "go play defensive" (unless it was 'arry, which it wasn't). They would have told him to "Sit between defence and midfield, intercept passes and lay off simple passes to your teammates" which is basically what the TC describes the Anchor Man role to be.
    Yes and they certainly didn't tell him just that you are an anchor man, they instructed him how to play in different situations.

    Lets think about a scenario that in my team, my best player is a left-footed right back with a shot like Roberto Carlos. I would certainly like to get the best out of this player and the best I could get from him is both solid defence work but also 5-10 goals per season because he has the attributes to get those goals. You can't get the best out of that kind of players with tactics creator, you would need specified instructions such as sliders.

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    Quote Originally Posted by däkkä View Post
    Nope. All I have done is provided you objective analysis on the effects of the shout and usage suggested by trusted FM sources.

    You provide your own subjective opinions on the shout, which you seem to want to say differ from the reliable sources I base my facts upon.
    Okay then.

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    Quote Originally Posted by El Payaso View Post
    Yes and they certainly didn't tell him just that you are an anchor man, they instructed him how to play in different situations.

    Lets think about a scenario that in my team, my best player is a left-footed right back with a shot like Roberto Carlos. I would certainly like to get the best out of this player and the best I could get from him is both solid defence work but also 5-10 goals per season because he has the attributes to get those goals. You can't get the best out of that kind of players with tactics creator, you would need specified instructions such as sliders.
    Wingback Support, ideally he would have the gets into opposition box PPM. Teach him to cut inside.

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    Quote Originally Posted by El Payaso View Post
    Yes and they certainly didn't tell him just that you are an anchor man, they instructed him how to play in different situations.

    Lets think about a scenario that in my team, my best player is a left-footed right back with a shot like Roberto Carlos. I would certainly like to get the best out of this player and the best I could get from him is both solid defence work but also 5-10 goals per season because he has the attributes to get those goals. You can't get the best out of that kind of players with tactics creator, you would need specified instructions such as sliders.
    They're introducing (let's call 'em) 'slider instructions' for FM14 (run with the ball more/less etc.).

    You can expect 'cut inside' to feature in FM17.

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    Quote Originally Posted by themadsheep2001 View Post
    Wingback Support, ideally he would have the gets into opposition box PPM. Teach him to cut inside.
    First; boring and second; that wouldn't necessarily get the best out of him. What if I would like to create an attacking pattern where that right back would play in centre of the pitch even when he isn't in possession to get best possible angles for long shots and if we would lose possession he would return back to flank. As stupid as it sounds I would be able to instruct things like that in real football but certainly won't be able to do that in the game.
    That kind of tactical control would be super especially in lower leagues where you could really get something new to the game if you would happen to find a real standout player for your team. For example, it would be real waste to play a Premierleague level full-back with supreme attributes just as an attacking full-back. There's so much more you could get out of that player with specified instructions.

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    Sounds awesome, but unfortunately I suspect that that level of control would require an actual overhaul of the ME.

    Attacking patterns are largely hardcoded in the ME and rightly so. As the user has more influence on the ME, the amount of variables grows exponentially and glitches follow.
    Last edited by däkkä; 20-08-2013 at 22:22.

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    Quote Originally Posted by El Payaso View Post
    First; boring and second; that wouldn't necessarily get the best out of him. What if I would like to create an attacking pattern where that right back would play in centre of the pitch even when he isn't in possession to get best possible angles for long shots and if we would lose possession he would return back to flank. As stupid as it sounds I would be able to instruct things like that in real football but certainly won't be able to do that in the game.
    That kind of tactical control would be super especially in lower leagues where you could really get something new to the game if you would happen to find a real standout player for your team. For example, it would be real waste to play a Premierleague level full-back with supreme attributes just as an attacking full-back. There's so much more you could get out of that player with specified instructions.
    Why Boring? Have you ever used it it and seen the results? Secondly how do you know it wont get the best out of him? I've actually done it with Fabio from the left, keeping the left winger wide, and its brutal.

    This is what happens: because he has the cuts inside PPM and has a right foot, he drives in off the left (wing back support leaves his wideplay as normal). He is basically an inverted full back.

    It's also absolutely not true that its a waste to use a great Prem Full back as an attacking Full Back. I used to have Baines as left full back with the Wing Back attack role. 12 goals (though 4 were free kicks) and 14 assists in 40 games.

    We can always have more instructions, but you certainly cannot say the first is boring when he scores 6 goals in 15 games, and then say its a waste when Baines then does the above.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cougar2010 View Post
    With/Without ball never left the game.The formation you select and the defensive instructions you give are your "Without Ball" while the roles/duties & attacking instructions you give are your "With Ball".
    I agree to some extent, but it is nowhere near as flexible as the old wibble / wobble. I understand why they removed it and the ME has improved as a result, but it has meant certain systems are now more difficult and less intuitive to create.

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    Quote Originally Posted by themadsheep2001 View Post
    Why Boring?
    Because I would certainly like to make a customised role for that kind of player. It's just more interesting to try things and very satisfying when you finally get all things right. And with that I don't mean finding a sweet spot with sliders. In real football you intruct players with words and that should happen in the game also IMO.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UVDcYRmyI5s
    From 00:52 on. That's how roling and instructing is done in real football.

    Quote Originally Posted by themadsheep2001 View Post
    This is what happens: because he has the cuts inside PPM and has a right foot, he drives in off the left (wing back support leaves his wideplay as normal). He is basically an inverted full back.
    I think that he would only do that when in possession?

    Quote Originally Posted by themadsheep2001 View Post
    It's also absolutely not true that its a waste to use a great Prem Full back as an attacking Full Back. I used to have Baines as left full back with the Wing Back attack role. 12 goals (though 4 were free kicks) and 14 assists in 40 games.
    I meant a Prem level full back in a smaller league. You do get really 'big fishes' from transfer markets in the game sometimes and those big fisher aren't always strikers but still fabulous players for team of your calibre. And I would certainly like to give more responsibility and get more out of that kind of signings. If the player is capable of doing much more than most of your team, I would certainly allow him to do that extra on the pitch and enjoy the results.

    Quote Originally Posted by themadsheep2001 View Post
    We can always have more instructions, but you certainly cannot say the first is boring
    This is one of the main things once again. You gave me instructions above and it is highly likely that thousands of other managers would be using exactly same 'tricks' with that kind of players. That makes it boring for me.
    Last edited by El Payaso; 21-08-2013 at 08:53.

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    Because I would certainly like to make a customised role for that kind of player. It's just more interesting to try things and very satisfying when you finally get all things right. And with that I don't mean finding a sweet spot with sliders. In real football you intruct players with words and that should happen in the game also IMO.
    Well first you wanted it to be possible, It is. The only customised instruction you probably want added is to be able to tell the full back to cut inside without manually tweaking, thats fine. But they cannot try to cater to find another way because you find it boring. Boring is subjective to the user. If you are saying that something is actually lacking in term of an instruction, that's one objective thing that can be looked at. But you can't just say I don't want to do that way because its boring, find me some otherway.

    You mean the shouts, which are already in the game... what you actually mean is that you want everything to be given as shouts. That's one way, but it has to be done without the user losing the ability actually put across the instructions.

    You do realise they do not give every instruction to every player for everything action every time as well?

    I meant a Prem level full back in a smaller league. You do get really 'big fishes' from transfer markets in the game sometimes and those big fisher aren't always strikers but still fabulous players for team of your calibre. And I would certainly like to give more responsibility and get more out of that kind of signings. If the player is capable of doing much more than most of your team, I would certainly allow him to do that extra on the pitch and enjoy the results.
    It's still the same concept as above when I described it. Only he is likely to have a bigger effect down the league. But a full back can only do some much in real life from the full back position. Baines/Alba/Lahm/Alaba/Marcelo, even if you took them down a league they would still be doing the same concepts of overloading and attacking down that flank, and arriving at the corner of the box at times.

    This is one of the main things once again. You gave me instructions above and it is highly likely that thousands of other managers would be using exactly same 'tricks' with that kind of players. That makes it boring for me
    It is the same in real life football, because there are a finite number of concepts and things you will say and get a player to do.

    If you ever listen repeatedly to manager interviews and coaching articles, the same things will come up time and again, because there there is usually only a few ways to do it.

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    I think it has to be asked, if this guy is that good and you want him to play in the middle of the pitch and take long shots, why not just play him in central midfield then? Is there a reason why you want him defending a flank rather than the middle?

    I'm just speculating, but you might get to do what you want on FM14. A screenshot shows us that we can instruct a DM to run to the outside with the ball. Hopefully we'll have all 4 instructions available to us for FM14, since it is reasonable to assume we'll still have "cut inside with ball" as it is now for the wide players and possibly then the two off the ball runs "drift inside" and "drift outside".

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    Quote Originally Posted by El Payaso View Post
    Such as? With ready-made roles you will have to be quite unaware of football if you do not succeed.
    If it was as easy as randomly picking a role for a position, people like wwfan likely wouldn't have felt the urge to post an altogether new guideline at the start of FM 2013. Many people were/perhaps still are unaware of the importance of shape, how to provide beneficial movement between the lines to create attacking space and width, how to provide cover for players advancing, and how to make their strike force link up with midfield, for instance. Previously space was always there at some point no matter what, as strikers when off the ball were able to ghost straight through there markers as if they weren't there, whereas ever since FM 2013 players have become a "physical presence", defenders something a striker needs to run around in order to find space. Some may think that all it takes is a popular formation and applying some roles, but that's barely half of it. Equally many are unaware how a lone target man might not be the best way to play upfront without any real support, as it is a role that encourages little movement off the ball and limited actions on the ball, and so on. Loopholes and ME as well as AI weaknesses of old meant they never had to learn much of this. But this has changed a little and will likely change some more in the coming versions, all the while the game not insisting everybody to be tactical masterclass, but at least apply things a tad logically, as it has always been.

    Fair point about roles in general though. They're certainly not something set in stone, and might differ from manager to manager, who might not use people's vocabulary at all. I know a few who would actually scoff at some of the football vocabulary that has become common language through various media, insisting some of it to be too rigid and easy and/or in some rare cynical cases even an attempt of people to come off more clever and insightful than they truly are.

    For example in FM 2008 I got Lampard scoring 20-30 goals per season from central midfiel position. Now that kind of things seem impossible no matter how you instruct your team.
    Well, yeah, as it was made possible by simply drawing an arrow of old in between the two centre forwards. This was all caused by an exploit though. Not sure what you mean about stats all looking alike or anyting though. You can opt to prioritize possession, you can choose to not do so any, etc. and all of this shows as well as a player's individual traits that are reflected in the statistics alike. If he gets playing time, Scholes ranks amongst the best passers in the Prem, then you've got your dirty and aggressive players on average getting more bookings and tackling more, small players barely winning a header, etc. What you don't have is an exploit that would make an MC cause 30 goals per season anymore, this true.
    Last edited by Svenc; 22-08-2013 at 02:08.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Svenc View Post
    Well, yeah, as it was made possible by simply drawing an arrow of old in between the two centre forwards. This was all caused by an exploit though.

    What you don't have is an exploit that would make an MC cause 30 goals per season anymore, this true.
    So you're just saying that I was using some exploit just like that. Never heard of that kind of exploits as I didn't even read this forum back then even though I had an account. As far as I remember I didn't use any arrows just the sliders and also got the best out of players like Kaká, Robben and Drogba. I have never been that desperate that I've had to look for exploits to win games.

    What you don't have is enough control to make the team play in a way you like. If you want your central midfielder to one of your main goalscoring threats like Lamps is in real life it isn't possible. Older tactics system wasn't perfect but atleast it had more control in it.

    Sorry for the quick reply everyone but I've gotta hurry to work.

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    Quote Originally Posted by El Payaso View Post
    So you're just saying that I was using some exploit just like that. Never heard of that kind of exploits as I didn't even read this forum back then even though I had an account. As far as I remember I didn't use any arrows just the sliders and also got the best out of players like Kaká, Robben and Drogba. I have never been that desperate that I've had to look for exploits to win games.
    I think this is a common misconception when some mentions exploits on this forum. I used to play 433 with wingers, and slip through balls to a pacey striker with decent finishing & composure. I didn't do this because I thought I was exploiting the ME, I did it because it made an element of sense and it was incredibly effective in the game. However, because I played on Commentary Only, I couldn't see why it was so effective i.e. players ran through other players. Now this has been fixed, what I thought was a sound tactic struggles on FM13, because inadvertantly I'd been exploiting an issue.

    Now, to say you a tactic you used exploited a flaw isn't to say you were purposefully breaking the ME to succeed - they are not necessarily one & the same. I've come to accept how & why my tactic worked previously and that whilst it was potentially an ME flaw, I wasn't to know this was why it was effective. The reason you probably didn't read it on here, was because it was so widespread it appears not many knew that it was even an issue!
    Last edited by joshpmilton; 22-08-2013 at 10:11. Reason: tactic, not formation

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    I'd rather see these minor exploits and real control than this current where the style of play in the match engine and stats overall always look the same.

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    Quote Originally Posted by El Payaso View Post
    So you're just saying that I was using some exploit just like that. Never heard of that kind of exploits as I didn't even read this forum back then even though I had an account. As far as I remember I didn't use any arrows just the sliders and also got the best out of players like Kaká, Robben and Drogba. I have never been that desperate that I've had to look for exploits to win games.

    What you don't have is enough control to make the team play in a way you like. If you want your central midfielder to one of your main goalscoring threats like Lamps is in real life it isn't possible. Older tactics system wasn't perfect but atleast it had more control in it.

    Sorry for the quick reply everyone but I've gotta hurry to work.
    Wish I was at home so I could post a screenshot, but this is categorically not true. Stevie Gerrard is on 13 goals halfway through Season 1 in my current save (he does admitedly take penalties and some free kicks though). I've had Coutinho average over 20 goals a season in lots of my other saves to (from CM and AMC positions).

    I'm not saying it's not harder, but it's sure as hell possible.

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    In tactic screen must be option for: with ball and without, because i want to play 4-5-1 when i dont have a ball, but when i have the ball i want 4-4-2 formation.... and players must listen tactic task. They must go back... but this is not case in fm 2013

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    Quote Originally Posted by El Payaso View Post
    I'd rather see these minor exploits and real control than this current where the style of play in the match engine and stats overall always look the same.
    Provided you aren't exaggerating in an attempt to hit home a point: If it truly does you're either applying the TC or the micro-sliders very very wrong, really. They're of course a tons of niggles and limitations, have always been. But I'd argue one of the main reasons why FM still remains when Konami, Beautiful Game Studios, Codemasters et all failed is because your transfers and decisions are somewhat reasonably reflected on the pitch (the same goes for the AI teams, naturally). Even FIFA Manager is currently rumored to enter its last run this season amongst its community as there's been zero information and no communication from the developer all season long, plus the game hasn't been shown at any trade fair that would have mattered for the first time ever, not even the gamescom in Germany, and that it was were it traditionally features big, as Germany is has been its core market by far. It's all a bit of a pity, yes, but after having played management games since around 1990, and having witnessed so many failure in particular in this area, I'm somewhat confident in arguing such.


    On the topic in general, it's all very well demanding more options (which apparently there will be for FM 2014, at least in terms of roles). However, as some food for though: Unless the AI isn't sophisticated enough to fully utilize them, it's rather moot. For instance, on top of being unrealistic, as players essentially were taking two positions at once rather than really making real "runs", the FArrows pre FM 2009 also let the human player simply overload the AI completely whilst it was never able to do likewise or adapt or anything at all. And whilst the AI currently utilizes the TC options in a reasonably way, it's arguably just that, reasonable. Evidence has it that human players appear to be struggling with the TC's concepts as they are in parts too ("Help! I haven't got the foggiest as to what kind of "philosophy" to pick", etc.), and don't get us really started on the sliders again. Which is a lot down to the game's documentation or lack thereof in parts, naturally. Not arguing against more options, they'll come either way. Just some food for thought, I think. :-)
    Last edited by Svenc; 24-08-2013 at 05:38.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Althaz View Post
    Wish I was at home so I could post a screenshot, but this is categorically not true. Stevie Gerrard is on 13 goals halfway through Season 1 in my current save (he does admitedly take penalties and some free kicks though). I've had Coutinho average over 20 goals a season in lots of my other saves to (from CM and AMC positions).

    I'm not saying it's not harder, but it's sure as hell possible.
    I think that it's much down to formation also. I use 4-2-3-1 (too) often and with that formation it seems impossible to get the central midfielder play in really attacking style. In real life I would be able to instruct player like Lampard to make runs to the box to end attacks, in FM it seems impossible in that kind of formation. Yeah it might backfire my team when I play my CM too attacking but that is what tactics are all about; making right desicions and making wrong ones.

    For me tactics creator is a boring tool without too much of a challenge or realism.

    Any word from SI finally?

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    Quote Originally Posted by El Payaso View Post
    I don't like the current tactics system because IMO it misses the main point in real tactics. In real football coaches give instructions to players and these given instructions form the role that player plays. In FM tactics you don't have to give instructions at all, you just pick a role that is pre-made for you. IMO that fact destroys all skill requirements and tactical identities in the game. For example if you use 4-2-3-1 and create the tactic only with tactics creator, there will be about 5 million other managers that will use exactly the same tactics you do. Where's your tactical identity then? And what makes you better manager than others?

    That's why I would love to see more micro tweaking things in FM tactics in the future. Things that make you able to get your team play exactly in the way that you like. These things would also increase the risk of making tactical errors and so on. Simply more realism.

    Any comments from SI are more than welcome.
    Have to disagee wth you Im afraid - you can modify the pre-set role in the game using team and player instructions if you want to

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    Quote Originally Posted by wazza View Post
    Have to disagee wth you Im afraid - you can modify the pre-set role in the game using team and player instructions if you want to
    You didn't get the point or propably didn't even read that message... You can, yes but by doing that you are more likely to just confuse your style of play instead of getting those chances that you want.
    And the main point in that message of mine was that in real football management you can't just pick a pre-made role out of the air you create the roles by your self tailored for that certain player that you are roling. Giving instructions and commands for certain situations creates the roles, in game it's kinda wrong way around.

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    [QUOTE=El Payaso;9010241]You didn't get the point or propably didn't even read that message... You can, yes but by doing that you are more likely to just confuse your style of play instead of getting those chances that you want.
    And the main point in that message of mine was that in real football management you can't just pick a pre-made role out of the air you create the roles by your self tailored for that certain player that you are roling. Giving instructions and commands for certain situations creates the roles, in game it's kinda wrong way around.[/QUOTE

    No but each role in the game has to have a base point of where you start - I use the player instructions to modify the role to suit the player playing it and how I want him to play ie you may have an advanced playmaker who is good at long shots and scores from distance - I wish for him to use that skill in his role so I modify the player instructions to suit. The new tactics to me are a variant of that by issuing worded instructions like you would irl, however it is still the same thing but made easier and more realistic in the ui

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    No but each role in the game has to have a base point of where you start
    The whole way through this thread I wondered why nobody had mentioned this. In the slider days, we had to start adjusting somewhere and nothing has changed, If you want to make adjustments you can. Saying that it messes up your team is just not true for all managers obviously. I have done just what Wazza said and I am happy with how I play football. Different teams play differently for me.

    Can the TC be better? Of course it can, but some of the claims given here as "objective" or "factual" are quite malicious to be honest.

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    Quote Originally Posted by wazza View Post
    The new tactics to me are a variant of that by issuing worded instructions like you would irl, however it is still the same thing but made easier and more realistic in the ui
    That's a start yes. But if SI really want to imitate real life tactics or more like style of plays; pre-made roles should go to waste basket (or to FM Classic) because you don't have pre-made roles in real football, that's a fact.

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    its really sad what way they are going... simplifying the game more and more is not the way to go or it´ll end as rubbish as the competitive from EA...

    they crippled the training system down to a pure RNG-based system and now they head to similar things with their tactic options. as long as we are unable to define complete roles on our own (wich wont come as it will screw the bloody shout system), i´m sure they implement a good documentation like allways :rofl: of what a role is supposed to do...

    if that system as anounced currently goes live its is the reason the fm13 is the last one i´ve bought.

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    Quote Originally Posted by siambluebird View Post
    The whole way through this thread I wondered why nobody had mentioned this. In the slider days, we had to start adjusting somewhere and nothing has changed, If you want to make adjustments you can. Saying that it messes up your team is just not true for all managers obviously. I have done just what Wazza said and I am happy with how I play football. Different teams play differently for me.

    Can the TC be better? Of course it can, but some of the claims given here as "objective" or "factual" are quite malicious to be honest.
    Indeed, there is a lot of half truth and nonsense being passed off as facts in this thread.

    For example: pre made roles not existing in real life. Roles are just a set of instructions, given to a player like you would in real life. They have merely been categorised and named under various concepts that exist in real life. so that you can look at a role and know what its about quickly. Sure you can made changes, but if you make enough changes, then than role has actually become something.

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    Quote Originally Posted by El Payaso View Post
    That's a start yes. But if SI really want to imitate real life tactics or more like style of plays; pre-made roles should go to waste basket (or to FM Classic) because you don't have pre-made roles in real football, that's a fact.
    If you think the conceptual role of a deep lying playmaker does not exist in real life I have to wonder what football you have been watching.

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    Quote Originally Posted by El Payaso View Post
    because you don't have pre-made roles in real football, that's a fact.
    I'm pretty sure that goalkeeper is a pre-made role

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    Quote Originally Posted by themadsheep2001 View Post
    If you think the conceptual role of a deep lying playmaker does not exist in real life I have to wonder what football you have been watching.
    These pre-made roles do exist when you do things like analyzing tactics but FM is a football management game. In football management you don't pick roles out of the air, you create the roles by instructing. Is it really that hard to get this?
    Do you people really think that roling players and team is really that simple?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tankqull View Post
    its really sad what way they are going... simplifying the game more and more is not the way to go or it´ll end as rubbish as the competitive from EA...
    Aye. I think that Football Manager Classic would be a perfect place for these simplified things. The main game should be more "hard core". At least they should make it possible to create training programs and style of plays from the scratch. I'm one of those players that want to do these kind of thing on my own, not use the game pre-made ​​things as I feel that by using that it's really not my tactics and certainly not entertaining or challenging.
    Last edited by El Payaso; 05-09-2013 at 12:22.

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    Quote Originally Posted by El Payaso View Post
    These pre-made roles do exist when you do things like analyzing tactics but FM is a football management game. In football management you don't pick roles out of the air, you create the roles by instructing. Is it really that hard to get this?
    .
    So the roles exist then dont they.

    The roles ARE instructions. You're the only one who doesn't seem to get this. They have just been categorised and named for convienience.

    Pirlo is a deep lying playmaker for example, that typically how he will he deployed. He might be asked to play a more cautious game, or or look to be more ambitious with his passing, so you instruct him differently, ie change parts of his role.
    Last edited by themadsheep2001; 05-09-2013 at 12:29.

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    Quote Originally Posted by themadsheep2001 View Post
    The roles ARE instructions. You're the only one who doesn't seem to get this. They have just been categorised and named for convienience.
    Yes instructions that you don't have to give yourself. You still can't tell that Mourinho and Benitez instruct a deep playing playmaker exactly the same way.

    Quote Originally Posted by themadsheep2001 View Post
    Pirlo is a deep lying playmaker for example, that typically how he will he deployed. He might be asked to play a more cautious game, or or look to be more ambitious with his passing, so you instruct him differently, ie change parts of his role.
    This is once again analyzing not management. You might see talk about pre-made roles maybe in football game's half-time in the studio not in the dressing room.
    Last edited by El Payaso; 05-09-2013 at 12:36.

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    Quote Originally Posted by El Payaso View Post
    Yes instructions that you don't have to give yourself. You still can't tell that Mourinho and Benitez instruct a deep playing playmaker exactly the same way.
    A deep lying playmaker is a deep lying playmaker, you might get him to do individual thing different in your different systems. But his concept is the same: to control and dictate play from a deep position on the pitch.

    Xabi alonso was a DLP under Benitez, and also under Jose. His role didnt actually change that much, he might have done certain things slightly differently from time to time, but he was a deep lying playmaker.

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    Quote Originally Posted by themadsheep2001 View Post
    Xabi alonso was a DLP under Benitez, and also under Jose. His role didnt actually change that much, he might have done certain things slightly differently from time to time, but he was a deep lying playmaker.
    I still don't think that either of these two managers just instructed him to be deep playing playmaker. You really can't tell for sure how he is instructed. I also think that Xabi Alonso is really tactically awared player, he's intelligent and experienced so he basically knows what he is expected to do and what he is capable of. But think about young players or amateur clubs' players they certainly aren't that well informed tactically. I bet that most of my local teams' players couldn't explain how deep playing playmaker plays. So by telling them just that "hey Makinen there, you're a deep playing playmaker" would be a disaster.

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    Quote Originally Posted by El Payaso View Post
    I still don't think that either of these two managers just instructed him to be deep playing playmaker. You really can't tell for sure how he is instructed. I also think that Xabi Alonso is really tactically awared player, he's intelligent and experienced so he basically knows what he is expected to do and what he is capable of. But think about young players or amateur clubs' players they certainly aren't that well informed tactically. I bet that most of my local teams' players couldn't explain how deep playing playmaker plays. So by telling them just that "hey Makinen there, you're a deep playing playmaker" would be a disaster.

    I'm 100% certain that neither manager told him to play with mentality 13, passing 12, through balls 15 either.....

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cougar2010 View Post
    I'm 100% certain that neither manager told him to play with mentality 13, passing 12, through balls 15 either.....
    Who claimed that they did?

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    Quote Originally Posted by El Payaso View Post
    Who claimed that they did?
    Well from skimming through the thread over the last couple of weeks it seems like you are.

    You dislike the player roles, you want more micro tweaking, thats more or less saying you just want the old sliders method.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cougar2010 View Post
    Well from skimming through the thread over the last couple of weeks it seems like you are.

    You dislike the player roles, you want more micro tweaking, thats more or less saying you just want the old sliders method.
    Never said that. Still it's funny how people react to sliders and praise pre-made roles even though sliders actually were more like real roling. And no, still not asking to get back to the slider system. These new verbal instructions to player roles are the first step to right direction. Hope to see more of these in the future.

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    Quote Originally Posted by El Payaso View Post
    Never said that. Still it's funny how people react to sliders and praise pre-made roles even though sliders actually were more like real roling. And no, still not asking to get back to the slider system. These new verbal instructions to player roles are the first step to right direction. Hope to see more of these in the future.
    Then whats the issue????

    We have player roles which can be tweaked through both shouts and advanced instructions, you can create your own shouts and more roles are being added each version.

    I'm struggling to understand what exactly you want.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cougar2010 View Post

    I'm struggling to understand what exactly you want.

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    Very mature

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    About as mature as you guys refusing to understand his point.

    Surely everybody understands that El Payaso wants a more immersive, more in depth and less conceptualized tactical system to work with.

    In real life tactics are not just these generic conceptual instructions that fit every scenario (such as 'Let's play fluid!', 'Busquets drop between the centrebacks!, You're the poacher!'), but more precise actions taken only when certain conditions occur.

    I said it before with a bit too much spice throw in it, I'll say it again in a more tasty way. That is a level of immersion that would require a ME ten times better than the current. It's not 'micromanaging' or 'slider exploiting', it's real football-esque tactic building.

    Instead of claiming more immersive system would be a step back, try to see it as logical progression that would another step further away from the slider system.

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    Sometimes, when reading some threads, i think people forget that FM is a game...

    If some of FM users, would play games like call of duty... what would they expect? Real guns and blood?

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    What is that? Simple is good, complex no-no?

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    Quote Originally Posted by däkkä View Post
    About as mature as you guys refusing to understand his point.

    Surely everybody understands that El Payaso wants a more immersive, more in depth and less conceptualized tactical system to work with.

    In real life tactics are not just these generic conceptual instructions that fit every scenario (such as 'Let's play fluid!', 'Busquets drop between the centrebacks!, You're the poacher!'), but more precise actions taken only when certain conditions occur.

    I said it before with a bit too much spice throw in it, I'll say it again in a more tasty way. That is a level of immersion that would require a ME ten times better than the current. It's not 'micromanaging' or 'slider exploiting', it's real football-esque tactic building.

    Instead of claiming more immersive system would be a step back, try to see it as logical progression that would another step further away from the slider system.
    We weren't refusing to understand his point, that wasn't the point he was making. Especially when he claims sliders are more "real role-ing". We've already been over the need for the TC to be more complex. It still requires the actual concepts and roles, but we need more instructions within said concepts, with a more complex ME to boot.
    Last edited by themadsheep2001; 05-09-2013 at 13:47.

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    Quote Originally Posted by däkkä View Post
    What is that? Simple is good, complex no-no?
    No, nothing like that.
    But sometimes i think people expect too much, and forget that one thing is be a real manager, in the field, training players and telling them how to play... and another thing, is sitting in the sofa, playing a computer game.

    the game could be as complex as you want... but it will always be very different from real life. You will always must have some sort of system (slidders, preset roles, or something they invent in the future) to try to simulate the real thing.

    My comment, was only because sometimes i feel people forget that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by themadsheep2001 View Post
    We weren't refusing to understand his point, that wasn't the point he was making. Especially when he claims sliders are more "real role-ing". We've already been over the need for the TC to be more complex. It still requires the actual concepts and roles, but we need more instructions within said concepts, with a more complex ME to boot.
    Exactly. I just feel you're both looking at the same issue from a different point of view.

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    I'm particularly interested in the half back, because that requires changes in the ME for it to function properly, in terms of the DM dropping and the DCs splitting.

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    Yeah, even in the best case scenario it'll still be an "on or off" feature where the ME decides whether it happens or not. For obvious reasons a lot of player movement and actions are hardcoded as the user having too much input would result in even worse ME exploitations than the slider system in its worst day. However, it's still no reason for SI not to strive for that level of user control.

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    Exploits are but one thing ... some slider instructions, in particularly defensive ones, have never been that sensitive in my opinion anyway. I personally think that the tweaking that is done towards the TC concepts (which get more and more detailed) might result in more various play (in particularly in attack and possession there's already much variation anyways). You can't take into account a gazillion possible slider combinations, which were never really properly explained anyway, and it shows in both indepth fan guides and discussions alike -- and that from the most astute FM players. A good number of clearly defined concepts which SI can concentrate on to show on-pitch as intended (and the player combine in many ways) however, that is something different.

    This is from a current Eurogamer interview, suggesting indeed the micro tweaking is gone. I've never managed a team, and the point that roles aren't cut in stone is well understood, but here Miles is opposing some of the views shared here in parts:

    Gone are the sliders of old - which allowed you to, say, incrementally nudge your defensive line deeper or further forward - with more nuanced player roles and commands stepping up in their place. The decision to opt for such a radical overhaul is a brave one, particularly with such a passionate fanbase, but the reasons behind it - like so much of what goes in to every new FM - were both technical and grounded in real life.

    The match engine, quite simply, had become too sophisticated to work within the 'classic' control system. And the changes, taken under great consideration, should allow for a much more realistic experience of how tactics are prepared on the training ground.

    "Going to training grounds is now a big part of my job. Managers don't turn around and tell players, 'I want you to be two notches further ahead.' What managers do is give players roles and explain those roles to them," Miles says.

    "With Gary Neville joining Sky last year you saw player roles become a much larger part of the accepted discourse on football - you don't have simple midfielders and forwards any more. You have ball-winning midfielders, anchormen, playmakers - that's how managers speak to players."

    With the new system, players will be given defined roles before the game and instructed how to react to different situations on the pitch - essentially expanding on the touch-line shouts feature to give a more natural, organic feel to the control you have of your team. Whether or not the new engine is balanced - yet alone challenging and fun - is something we won't find out until we get our hands on it, but two teams of testers are working around the clock to make sure it's as good as it possibly can be.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Keyzer Soze View Post
    Sometimes, when reading some threads, i think people forget that FM is a game...
    Yes it's a game but it's that type of game that should never be too simplified. IMO SI have simplified such things as tactics and traning too much. Would be okay things in FM Classic but not in the actual game.

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    Quote Originally Posted by El Payaso View Post
    Yes it's a game but it's that type of game that should never be too simplified. IMO SI have simplified such things as tactics and traning too much. Would be okay things in FM Classic but not in the actual game.
    I'd agree it was simplifying if you couldn't do wrong with the Creator. However, people are building tactics just as horrid, one-dimensional and not well thought through as they did previously with classic sliders. That they aren't asked to backwards translate match action into slider effects beforehand, some of which minimal, doesn't change that. As even with all the descriptions given to the concepts in the TC, roles and duties do occasionally get mixed up quite badly. In some cases they make for completely static play or teams in disrupted shape, and unless the player quality doesn't make up for that, the players get punished.

    I still understand your general point or worries though. It's still worth looking at this from a different angle, though, in particular as this is always going to be a game engine which must a) produce balanced results and statistics over 90 minutes of play b) provide an AI that can cope with any option there is and c) be tweaked to make the options that are there to be distinguishable. Each of these is more easier done if there aren't two billion different settings at play, but still a couple thousands which come from combining clearly defined concepts in many many ways rather than jiggling sliders in limitless and unpredictable ways.

    In that I'd argue people employing the TC are getting more variation out of the engine as slider tweakers as things are already. Unless you save a couple dozen tactics or enjoy tweaking each player individually for every single detail, the TC reigns supreme. Just trying to get your side to hold onto possession will require you to tweak eleven players individually vs. making a mouse click in the TC. Every. Single. Time. That sounds like simplifying just as well if you like to read that with sarcasm in mind, but it isn't a guarantee that this works out well any just as much as the many individual slider tweaks isn't a guarantee. In fact, for instance, trying to do such away with an inferior team against aggressive opposition might actually prove costly as it might encourage a side to get caught in possession in dangerous areas.
    Last edited by Svenc; 05-09-2013 at 15:10.

  97. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by Miles from SI
    What managers do is give players roles and explain those roles to them
    Here is where the game goes wrong in my opinion. You give the role, yes but you don't have to know how that role works. Instructions just magically appear. So when you're roling you really don't have to know a thing and suddenly you have a fully working player role. That's stupid IMO.

    And once again, what kind of training grounds has he visited? I guess that professional teams where players are tactically awared in amateur leagues they are not.

    Quote Originally Posted by Svenc View Post
    I'd agree it was simplifying if you couldn't do wrong with the Creator. However, people are building tactics just as horrid, one-dimensional and not well thought through as they did previously with classic sliders. That they aren't asked to backwards translate match action into slider effects beforehand, some of which minimal, doesn't change that. As even with all the descriptions given to the concepts in the TC, roles and duties do occasionally get mixed up quite badly. In some cases they make for completely static play or teams in disrupted shape, and unless the player quality doesn't make up for that, the players get punished.
    Yes, some of the players can make mistakes but the problem is that when you learn to use things that really work in the game, it's really hard to make things wrong. I've always been succesful with tactics creator but since FM 2011 when I have touched the sliders to change the style of play I've only managed to mess the working tactic up. The game seems to become boring and both teams are getting less than 10 shots per game. No matter what kind of instructions, this always seems to happen. It's kinda odd as I did have killer classic tactics in FM 2010.

    I think it's boring that you can create a fully working tactic in about three to five minutes and when you try to make it more suitable for your current team the tactic just breaks up.
    Also it's funny that you can use exactly same style of play with teams like Brentford and Barcelona.
    Last edited by El Payaso; 05-09-2013 at 15:59.

  98. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by Svenc View Post
    In that I'd argue people employing the TC are getting more variation out of the engine as slider tweakers as things are already. Unless you save a couple dozen tactics or enjoy tweaking each player individually for every single detail, the TC reigns supreme. Just trying to get your side to hold onto possession will require you to tweak eleven players individually vs. making a mouse click in the TC. Every. Single. Time. That sounds like simplifying just as well if you like to read that with sarcasm in mind, but it isn't a guarantee that this works out well any just as much as the many individual slider tweaks isn't a guarantee. In fact, for instance, trying to do such away with an inferior team against aggressive opposition might actually prove costly as it might encourage a side to get caught in possession in dangerous areas.
    I agree with your points and would like to add that probably one of the main reasons of these changes is that a naturally intuitive and easier to approach TC must go a long way in catering to a wider audience. I actually think it's the single biggest reason of ridding the game of the sliders (well, technically the sliders 99% sure will be in use under the surface for many many future iterations).

    However, "less effort" is a bad argument against the slider system.

    There is absolutely no reason for shouts and other mass edit tools not to work with classic tactics. The rules are very straightforward.

    Look at the 'retain possession' that you mentioned. The changes that 'retain possession' makes are regular and predictable. The 'pass to feet' is even simpler. Reduce TTB by a notch. How hard would it be for SI to implement a 'reduce TTB' function for the slider system? It would only take them seconds.

    The only reason we can not use those same simple functions to classic tactics is that SI have made up their mind and are looking to make the game more approachable. Please don't deny that going after a wider customer base doesn't affect anything. Of course it does. They have limited resources and it changes their game developing priorities. They're not making the game for me anymore. They're making it for John who has a Sky subscription and adores Gary Neville.

  99. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by Miles
    What managers do is give players roles and explain those roles to them
    so now we will have roles but the explanation aka sliders will been taken away... great stuff.

    Quote Originally Posted by däkkä
    The only reason we can not use those same simple functions to classic tactics is that SI have made up their mind and are looking to make the game more approachable. Please don't deny that going after a wider customer base doesn't affect anything. Of course it does. They have limited resources and it changes their game developing priorities. They're not making the game for me anymore. They're making it for John who has a Sky subscription and adores Gary Neville.
    screw the fanbase for some more bucks. doin´ it the EA way of live ...





    hopefully their are enough fans keeping the fm13 database up to date...

  100. #100
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    Dakka there is a big reason even before we talk about the user: The AI cannot manipulate them.

    The AI only uses the TC and shouts

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