Minor attendance problem

Here is just one reason why I'll never again pay a premium price for Football Manager:

I'm managing Chester and I just got promoted 4 years in a row...let me throw some attendance stats at you:

Season 1

Blue Square North

Stadium Capacity 6,000

Ave.Att. 2783

Season 2

Blue Square Prem

Ave.Att. 4467

Season 3

League 2

Ave.Att. 5488

Season 4

League 1

Ave.Att. 5755

If I remember correctly I was at 98% capacity for league games

(so far I am happy)

Season 5

Championship

I got a small increase in capacity to 6,500

Home Match 1

Pre-Season

Chester v Sunderland (Prem)

Att 5,222

Home Match 2

League Cup

Chester v Stockport (League 2)

Att 4401

(I am still happy)

Home Match 3

NPower Championship

Possibly the biggest match in Chester's history

The town is full of enthusiasm

It's a hot sunny afternoon

Chester v Stoke City

Att 3985???????????????????????????????????? WHAT???????

Last year almost every league game was sold out and now my attendance is lower than it was 2 years ago. This is a VERY SERIOUS complaint guys. I need the cash and attendances like this will really spoil this game for me after hundreds of hours of toil!

So after all these years developing the game I really can't understand what on earth you guys do all year. The lack of attention to detail is a joke. This clapping is sarcastic. :applause:

I kinda support you here if what you say is true but perhaps the lower attendance figures are because you are playing less attacking (boring) football or have just sold your most reputable players?

I kinda support you here if what you say is true but perhaps the lower attendance figures are because you are playing less attacking (boring) football or have just sold your most reputable players?

Thanks for the reply. Well I gave a big bunch of players free transfers every year. But there's nothing different this year from previous seasons. And I won League 1 by 23 points scoring 96 goals with a media prediction of 24th and on a shoestring budget.

Don't look for excuses for SI. That game against Stoke should have been sold out. It would have been in real life even if I'd got 24 new players. 2 years ago the attendance in my opening game was 5,874 against Crewe and last year I sold out the stadium against Sheff Wed and then carried on selling it out game after game.

And I reckon I could list 101 annoying problems with the game not just one. They've been developing it for 15 years or so and it's high time somebody made a comprehensive list of problems and set about sorting them out. If they want my money they need to show some professionalism, sort out their priorities, make the game fun to play rather than a tedious slog and fix as many of the niggles in the game as humanly possible.

The game has plenty of good points. It's been designed by clever people and in some ways it's great fun. But I'm constantly rolling my eyes at all the stupidities.

In a few weeks they'll start telling us there will be 1000 improvements in FM14 but anyone who is not a newbie knows full well what to expect...year-by-year the game gradually gets better but it's still going to be packed with stupid annoyances because they spend the budget in the wrong places:

FM Business Plan

(a) first make a game that's fun to play and makes you look like competent professionals rather than shambolic incompetents

(b) then gradually improve the game each year without forgetting that it still needs to be fun

So my early plea for FM15 is please stop trying to add new things to the game for at least one year until it is fun to play. And if you think it's fun that's fair enough but you only need to look at the reviews on amazon to see the rampant hostility of many unhappy customers.

It's a shoddy product!

You're gonna still buy it.

The funny thing is, most of the problems are on a list. Being on a list doesn't mean it will be immediately fixed. If you have done any kind of work in the software industry, you'd know the time/resources constraints. Frankly I have no idea how you (or in fact anyone outside SI) can comment on what their budget is and how they utilise it. Since that info is never released.

As for shoddy product, Sold faster than ever before and more than ever before.

The thing is, this is probably a relatively simple issue that has been noted before. Rather than a long and ultimately fruitless post, you simply could have put this in the bugs thread with the save, and probably got a reply from one of the devs.

I've never understood this about people in GD. If you think something is broken, post it somewhere useful with something useful, like the game save. It's the quickest way to actually get the niggly and broken stuff removed!

101 things? It would have been infinitely more useful to have mentioned even handful of these things in the bugs forums, or even look at the bugs forum to see if they have been noted for handling in future.

This rant actually achieves nothing, there is nothing particularly constructive about it, and in fact insulting them will only see it get ignored and the thread closed.In the time it took you to write the two posts you could have uploaded that save for them to actually look at.

Pointless

quite the rant over 400 seats less filled.

Like themadsheep said above, had you used the time it took you to write those 2 posts in a constructive manner (bugs forum) something might actually have been done about this. What's the point of this now?

On a side note: I find it almost hilarious for you to map out a business plan for SI. Since you have such a wonderful business strategy planned out, why don't you try and build a software company up for yourself? See how well you fare. A little humilty seems in order.

I've always maintained sarcastic clapping should be an instant 'yellow card'.

It's just as pathetic to see here as on the football pitch.

A more natural progression would be handled better by the game - if you make it do weird things, expect weird results.

I do like how the attendances are a massive problem, but you being able to get an awful team promoted 4 times in a row is apparently perfectly ok.

I'd personally be more bothered about the fact that the game let you into the Premier League in the first place. With such a small stadium, it is highly unlikely that you would have been allowed to have been promoted in real life.

I'd personally be more bothered about the fact that the game let you into the Premier League in the first place. With such a small stadium, it is highly unlikely that you would have been allowed to have been promoted in real life.

I think he is saying he is in the Championship. With all that clapping though its impossible to make proper sense from his rant.

P.s. when was the last time someone did pay a 'premium' price for FM? In my eyes premium price is £39.99, or perhaps £29.99.

SI (via gmg) have for the last 2 FM's rewarded customers with deals that have seen it buyable for £19.99 pre-release. Not a 'premium' price.

I consider FM to be full of little flaws and hiccups, and a few bigger ones too, leading me to stop playing it over the last wee while. But at ~980 mostly enjoyable hours for the non-premium price of £19.99, I always try to keep my complaints at least within reasonable check.

I think he is saying he is in the Championship. With all that clapping though its impossible to make proper sense from his rant.

So he is. Must read more carefully in future!

I consider FM to be full of little flaws and hiccups, and a few bigger ones too, leading me to stop playing it over the last wee while. But at ~980 mostly enjoyable hours for the non-premium price of £19.99, I always try to keep my complaints at least within reasonable check.

£0.02 per hour. Cheers SI!

(just make FM14 better though!)

Is it possible your attendance is down because one of the stands is closed for expansion work? Just a thought.

£0.02 per hour.

That's an interesting way to think about it.

Nobody has asked the obvious question, how many seats does the Deva Stadium have available for the Stoke game? At the start of the game it only has 3485 which suggest the board added 500 new seats to increase the overall capacity but could not afford the cost of converting the ground to all-seater, not surprising after such a meteoric rise through the leagues.

1. The lower attendances for league games can be easily explained.

2. There is a flaw in S's design decision to not allow clubs promoted to the Championship the correct 3 year time period to renovate their ground to all-seater while allowing them to use the available terracing.

Comparing the average attendance from an over achieving season previously to a single data point now is poor form statistically. There'll be fluctuations in attendance over a season, highs and lows. Theres no reason to expect a lower average at this point. That attendance is probably well within the standard deviation. Also are Chester and Stoke listed as rivals?

Ackter's reply is the best one.

Spot on.

I'm with Ackter too, he's hit the nail on the head.

SI do a great job year in year out and you have a go at them for your attendance being low for one game?

I'm amazed you got that many back to back promotions, finished 1st every time I suppose?

In defence of the OP I was 1 win away from automatic promotion to the Premier League after achieving back to back promotions from BSN to the Championship, the problems linked to match odds, win expectations & AI mentality means it is actually quite easy to do with a low rep club when combined with good management.

And that's where the real problem lies, which was my point.

Indeed, he missed the significantly more important issue & only mention what at best is a trivial matter, reaffirms my belief (possibly yours too) that too many people on the forums only complain about bugs when they negatively effect them.

Reading this I thought of Southampton

People show up when you're winning, as soon as you are expected to lose you cant sell out for Man Utd

Like Ackter and Neil said.

I would be more worry about the match itself then attendences.

Don't worry about it. In case you do feel it is a bug, then go to bug forum and report it, so the devs can have look at it. If it is actually a bug and something fairly quickly resolved, it is likely to be resolved for FM14.

I think the OP is making a genuine point

The problem is that the point is made on a one-off element. I would like to have seen attendances for the rest of the season and other cup matches

This is the problem with knee jerk reactions rather than factual statements or obeservations with supporting data.

I do think the game should have been a sell out of couese we don't know what the maximum attendance is that could have been achieved. One could also suggest that perhaps Stoke didn't take up their full ticket allocation but these tickets could not be sold to the home team since they were in a planned segregated area for the Stoke fans

Akter makes an interesting response but again its difficult to assess with out further data frm the OP

No further replies from the OP and I personally think this because of the number of people joining to help poke the OP without really making a considered statement or opinion...perhaps borders on flaming to be honest. That said the OP did invite this with sarcasm and hand claps.

In the grand scale of things its a potential issue but how does it compare and get prioritised with say ME issues.

Sadly in this instance its unlikely to get investigated because insufficient data has been provided

I invite the OP to come back with more data so that further understanding can be made e.g.:

a) what was the allowable capacity at the time

b) what tatendence was achieved for other cup matches

c) what was attendance throughout the season including any derby games whilst in the championship

When I took Afc Telford to the premier league my attendances increased steadily and are still rising. I think in this game attendance increases are pretty realistic, at least in my experiences. What I would say is that the attendances for low round cup games are a bit low no matter who the opposition is

Thats a fair point but in this case I think though it should not be that low if the club is a championship side at the time e.g. so is not that low a cup round and has a premiership (I assume) club (Stoke) playing them

Another factor which will impact attendance is the day, was it mid week or weekend. Again this is wehere the OP hasn't furnished all the facts

Another factor which will impact attendance is the day, was it mid week or weekend. Again this is wehere the OP hasn't furnished all the facts

His Stoke game is in the championship.

I think everyone is trying to over complicate the issue, I'm 100% sure this is jut an issue of the the competition having a no standing rule & the ground only having 3985 seats.

The game was sold out, nothing more.

I'm sure Championship has a no standing rule?

Also, has the capacity been reduced for expansion?

Championship rules in FM state no standing allowed, it's wrong but that's a slightly different issue.

You're gonna still buy it.

no I'm not

c) what was attendance throughout the season including any derby games whilst in the championship

The average attendance over the season is key if it's to be compared with the other seasons. Only then can we or the OP see if that attendance falls outside of the normal range, or whether the attendance for the season in the championship differs significantly from any other season, or even whether the attendances differ significantly between normal games and derby/rival games. It might all be moot because as Barside says it could be an issue due to standing only but I think calling for more data is key simply because there are tons of posts here that complain about something happening but don't present enough data to even draw basic conclusions from.

I don't know if it bothers anyone else but it's a pet peeve of mine (because of work I guess ) when people completely misunderstand stats - often the data presented isn't even complete enough to be descriptive, never mind complete enough to draw statistically sound conclusions from.

quite the rant over 400 seats less filled.

Like themadsheep said above, had you used the time it took you to write those 2 posts in a constructive manner (bugs forum) something might actually have been done about this. What's the point of this now?

On a side note: I find it almost hilarious for you to map out a business plan for SI. Since you have such a wonderful business strategy planned out, why don't you try and build a software company up for yourself? See how well you fare. A little humilty seems in order.

Maybe if you looked again at the figures you'd not have made such a stupid post yourself

A more natural progression would be handled better by the game - if you make it do weird things, expect weird results.

I do like how the attendances are a massive problem, but you being able to get an awful team promoted 4 times in a row is apparently perfectly ok.

Another poster and more garbage. Where did I say I was "perfectly OK" that the game is easy?

I'd personally be more bothered about the fact that the game let you into the Premier League in the first place. With such a small stadium, it is highly unlikely that you would have been allowed to have been promoted in real life.

I'm not in the Premier League

Is it possible your attendance is down because one of the stands is closed for expansion work? Just a thought.

No 23456

You really need to stop your attitude.

Interesting place you've stopped quoting, too.

Maybe if you looked again at the figures you'd not have made such a stupid post yourself

Like Ackter said, you need to work on your attitude.

Basic logic dictates every reaction is second to an action. Had you desired a more serious reply from some, you might have been better off trying a less sarcastic rant for OP, better funded with data.

Nobody has asked the obvious question, how many seats does the Deva Stadium have available for the Stoke game? At the start of the game it only has 3485 which suggest the board added 500 new seats to increase the overall capacity but could not afford the cost of converting the ground to all-seater, not surprising after such a meteoric rise through the leagues.

1. The lower attendances for league games can be easily explained.

2. There is a flaw in S's design decision to not allow clubs promoted to the Championship the correct 3 year time period to renovate their ground to all-seater while allowing them to use the available terracing.

Ahh...thanks for posting. You're exactly right. They did add 500 seats using money taken from club funds. So my seating capacity is now 3985 and that's the exact attendance of the Stoke game.

I don't know the real-life rules for the Championship myself but assuming you're correct and I should be allowed to use the terraces for 3 years it's an SI bog up as I suspected.

Also we managed to sell 4,098 season tickets which might be why that never occurred to me. Another bog up.

I'm going to lose a fortune in finance because of this! I'm £6k per week under budget but I'd have spent less if I'd realised my attendances were going to be so low...ho hum.

I don't know the real-life rules for the Championship myself but assuming you're correct and I should be allowed to use the terraces for 3 years it's an SI bog up as I suspected.

Ha! I'm not sure you can claimg 'as I suspected' when you (like me) had no idea!

Comparing the average attendance from an over achieving season previously to a single data point now is poor form statistically. There'll be fluctuations in attendance over a season, highs and lows. Theres no reason to expect a lower average at this point. That attendance is probably well within the standard deviation. Also are Chester and Stoke listed as rivals?

nonsense...I know plenty about statistics

barside nailed it anyway

A more natural progression would be handled better by the game - if you make it do weird things, expect weird results.

What "weird things" have I done?

Get promoted every single season, I'm guessing

I'm with Ackter too, he's hit the nail on the head.

SI do a great job year in year out and you have a go at them for your attendance being low for one game?

I'm amazed you got that many back to back promotions, finished 1st every time I suppose?

Ackter hit nothing on the head.

In League 2 I was second, quite a bit behind Bradford but well ahead of the play-offs. All other seasons I was first.

I don't know whether or not you're being sarcastic and trying to imply that I'm cheating. If you want to know my system and try it for yourself you only need to ask.

What "weird things" have I done?

Progressed up the leagues so quickly. It's not something that should be realistically possible in the game (though obviously it's currently very easy to do it). It should take many, many season.

And it's also quite obvious that your attendance 'problem' was a far bigger issue to you than progressing quickly, otherwise where's the "I progressed too quickly, you've lost a customer SI!" thread?

Indeed, he missed the significantly more important issue & only mention what at best is a trivial matter, reaffirms my belief (possibly yours too) that too many people on the forums only complain about bugs when they negatively effect them.

I missed nothing.

Several people made this point so I'll address it here.

The game needs to be balanced so that newbies can play it as well as salty long-timers and the list of frustrated newbies is long indeed. I've been playing for 15 years or so. It's also worth noting that I put in a hell of a lot of time choosing players and there won't be many people willing to make the effort that I did.

As well as this I have attribute masking switched off so it's not fair to complain too much.

Even so I was thinking about commenting about this but I was waiting to see if I could get 5 in a row.

I find it strange that a bunch of you are telling me what to complain about. I'll make whatever complaints I like thanks very much.

Like Ackter said, you need to work on your attitude.

Basic logic dictates every reaction is second to an action. Had you desired a more serious reply from some, you might have been better off trying a less sarcastic rant for OP, better funded with data.

look at your own patronising post and go and troll somebody else

they can't get the disciplinary rules for yellow cards right...they seem not to have heard of violent conduct and the rules for red cards are wrong...fixtures are generated incorrectly...rules for releasing players for internationals are wrong

the list is endless...what's one more thing?

(back later)

I'll make whatever complaints I like thanks very much.

Do it with a little civility then please and actual evidence when you can provide it would be appreciated in the bugs forum.