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Thread: Explanation as to why I'm wavering in buying FM 14 for the first time ever!

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    Default Explanation as to why I'm wavering in buying FM 14 for the first time ever!

    Sorry SI development team, but the reason for the title subject is that for the first time, since the man in a duffle coat first intrigued me to buy the game as Championship Manager, I really don't think I'm going to be back for Football Manager 2014.

    In my opinion, you have made a monumental blunder with Football Manager 2013. Here is my feedback as to why

    When I heard that you were bringing out two different versions of Football Manager 2013, I was really sceptical. My first thoughts were that something had to give within the game. Having now played the Classic version it feels as though not nearly enough time has been spent on it for the release of 2013, and for other cut-down version, my experience of this is I think the product is a rank, rotten experience. I have tried it twice. Once I managed to last half-an-hour before switching the pc off. The second time I lasted an hour. It is not for me at all. Now, I could live without playing this cut-down-supposedly-quicker-version of the game and ignore it. However, what has happened to Football Manager 2013 Classic this year? It feels as though my previous 20 years of playing the game have counted for absolutely nothing. It honestly feels as though in playing 2013, I've become a complete stranger to the Football Manager product. I'd like to mention something positive here and say that cosmetically it looks like previous incarnations, but even there it feels as though I've hardly got any control. Between the waiting on next highlights which is completely frustrating to watch, yet if you turn away and you need to make a decision - oh no ten minutes have just passed and the game has ended - wwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaiiiiiiit ttttttttttttt, nnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnoooooooooooo, I was trying to make a substitution! The truth is that the match engine has become unexciting to watch, slow and lacks control for the player to make decisions.

    I've loved the experience of the various incarnations of the game, from the text-based match reports to the graphical match engines, up to this recent release. In fact I was one of the major supporters of the match engine going graphical and remember the pelters I took from other forum posters in daring to suggest it. My idea was that you used the Sensible Soccer type graphics and was delighted in the incarnation that you went with. In recent incarnations with European games I've played and won, it gave the equivalant feeling me to what it was like to watch Dundee Utd beat Barcelona 1-0 all those years ago at Tannadice park, with two weeks later beating them 2-1 there. Who cares if the game didn't look fabulous, it played well. Many of us didn't care if we looked like knobs when our team scored, the game was exciting and it was enjoyable to play. In likening Football Manager 2013 Classic to say a car engine - in attempting to improve the torque, somebody has majorly over-tightened the bearings for 2013 to the point that the game has locked up!

    Here is a live example of the difference between 2012 and 2013, and the likening to the over-tightening of the bearings that I described in the last paragraph. In 2012 I picked Annan Athletic and started them in the Scottish Third Division. Over around ten seasons I went from the Third Division to the Premier League, complete with a brand new stadium. It wasn't back-to-back league wins, it took time. I didn't cheat and I didn't look at any forum postings about wonder players. I played the game exactly the way I'd played it before and I enjoyed it. The only daft thing was that having taken the club from obscurity to the Premier League, I showed interest in the Cardiff job and the fans and board turned on me like a pack of wolves. I didn't think that was realistic.

    Now in comparison to 2013, I have taken Montrose in the Third Division. I have found up to this point that I have started three new games of Football Manager 2013. This is really unknown for me. The first game was with Montrose where I failed to get promoted from the Third Division. Guaranteed Rangers were in the Third Division the first season and I finished second which led me into the play-off. I was beaten in the semi-final. I stopped playing this game because seven seasons later I'm still not promoted from Divison Three. I lost count of the number of times I was beaten in the play-offs. So, I thought okay I'll pick Dundee Utd, the team I support in real life. Now I'm already lacking in enjoyment of the product at this point. As with other incarnations I'd sometimes have Dundee Utd come in and ask me to manage them. It felt as though I'd earned my wings each new incarnation, and I could take control of the club I love with a good record behind me. So the second time I'm playing as Dundee Utd I find that the defence is leaking goals left, right and centre - not like they did for real last season but in a comical way and I feel as though I've no control over it. It felt as though nothing changed with them whether I was managing or not. I didn't even manage to finish the season. I left Football Manager 2013 for a month and came back. This time I pick Montrose again and like de ja vu I find that once again I cannot get out of the Scottish Third Division. I cannot buy enough players for the team, never mind quality players for that division. I cannot loan players despite having a contract with the club to do so. I'm playing at too low a level to allow the player to go on loan - aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaggggggggggggghhhhhhhhhhhhhh why does Football Manager 2013 allow you to sign the contract with the Club in the first place. Celtic, Hearts, Dunfermline and others that slip my mind. My point here is that its not just Premier League clubs, but First Division clubs also that will not release players on loan to me. So after 20 years and three new attempts of clicking on the new game this time around, I'm not enjoying the game - it is not enjoyable. There is a lack of control for the player in the game. It's not enjoyable to watch.

    Really SI I don't know what the answer to this problem is. Perhaps you've just had a Microsoft Windows 7 to 8 upgrade moment. Yes that made me run for the hills also. I'm just glad it was a friends pc and not my own. Is there people working at SI now that are treating the product as just a job? Or are you needing to release the product every two years instead of every one. Is SI needing to get another game in its stable, one that keeps the game fresh for the next incarnation? Something is wrong and you need to figure out what that is because if 2014 doesn't address the way that players like myself are feeling, you are going to be in trouble.

    Thanks for listening. I feel better for being honest and hope that my constructive criticism helps because I'd like to start enjoying the game again - like I did before!

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    Quote Originally Posted by birsealmighty View Post
    you are going to be in trouble.
    ominous! (but wrong)
    Last edited by Herbert Fandel; 20-06-2013 at 19:21.

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    Herbert,

    What on earth are you talking about, ominous but wrong? Realism? this is a game? It is supposed to be enjoyable.

    If I wanted the latest version of Apprentice Joiner 2014, and within the game I didn't hold the saw the right way, I really would understand. I've played computer games for the past 34 years and I'm entitled to my opinion. It really looks to me as though you comment for the sake of actually commenting!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Herbert Fandel View Post
    ominous! (but wrong)

    P.S I don't see any constructive criticism.

    I see "realism = bad"
    To be fair Herbert, any criticism seems rarely to be 'constructive' to some. Here's looking at you.

    I see "any criticism = bad" to some in your own input if it mattered. The guy made his points, explained why, and you don't have to agree with him. You could try to constructively criticise his points he's spent a bit of time raising to show him the way on how it's done?

    For the OP - I am one of those who wished SI took 2 year releases, but know it's never going to happen. But you as the customer has the choice here and can choose to buy every 2 years instead, or every 5. If you're enjoying an old version why must you really, really must have the latest version. Civ 4 > Civ 5 being a case in point? Not everything 'new' is 'better'.

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    Jibby123,

    Thanks very much for your comments.

    I'd made up my mind to write this posting about three weeks ago. On coming onto the forums I noticed another person complaining about the enjoyment of the game, so realised I wasn't alone.

    It still amazes me to this day that there are those out there that believe enjoyment somehow means easy. I grew up playing computer games that were designed to be hard, and some that were designed not to be finished. I'd like to think that with my experience I actually understand the difference.

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    I skipped FM13, and haven't regretted it, and from keeping up with how it has developed on these forums, I do get the impression that FM14 is going to be the game that FM13 should have been. As long as there aren't 900 new features announced for it, and the focus is on polishing the existing game, it seems to be shaping up to be a strong one in the series.

    Unfortunately, this means I can't give much feedback to your criticism in terms of the game getting tougher or losing what made it enjoyable for you. I'd echo Jibby's point, though- a new version of a game doesn't mean the old one isn't enjoyable. I'm still quite happy spending hour after hour on FM12, and I'd certainly back up the Civ 4/5 comparison. If FM13 has left a bad taste for you, fine- but don't make the mistake of writing off the whole series- my fingers are crossed for FM14.

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    I'm really not seeing where you have proposed any game-breaking issues.


    So managing in the basement of Scottish football is difficult? Yes, of course it is. Realistically, what players would you expect to be able to loan to those leagues? Have you seen the pitches they play on?

    And you are saying that though you knowingly bought the world's most in-depth football manager simulation, you don't like the experience of skipping through the actual matches (highlights)? I find that a bit ironic.


    To each his own. You don't have to like the game, but the game plays as advertised "Football Manager is the best-selling, most realistic football management series ever made." Being able to start in a semi-professional league and just loan in talent while you simulate games and blitz to the top flight wouldn't be the game they're describing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Herbert Fandel View Post
    What a boring and tired response. I criticize the game often and with good reason, so in no way is what I said supposed to be precluding criticism. I won't accept you claiming I can't stand people criticizing the game, because that is pure nonsense. I do however tend to chime in when people post in a way which criticizes something which isn't a fault in the game, without fault, as here, it is about not winning unrealistically like you used to.

    Having read his entire post I don't see any constructive criticism. I'm not even entirely sure what his point is. I see him complaining about 2 cut down modes (there aren't). I see him basing a lot of anger on the game finishing before he can make a sub (don't just watch key highlights). I see him complaining that teams wont loan players to division 3....

    I don't see a point being made anywhere. The only thing that distinguishes it from other rants in my eyes is that he sounds more frustrated than angry.

    I don't see anything here which actually comments on the game, other than to say he isn't in enjoying it because he isn't winning like he used to. That may be a valid reason not to enjoy the game if your brain works that way. That may also be a valid reason not to buy FM14. It isn't constructive criticism though.
    That's fair enough. It's your opinion. But you've wasted how much time giving unconstructive criticism on a post of what is, in your eyes, an unconstructive post?

    Why?

    I'm doing it now, you little scamp. I'll back off.

    Feedback on the game is not us being the police on feedback, we don't have to defend it. Or slate it.

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    I have to agree that not all criticism needs to be supported with tangible evidence of a game's flaws, the OP is clearly finding it difficult to get immersed into FM13 & has put this across in a manner that did not resort to ranting & raving about perceived bias or blatant cheating in the game & that is to be applauded.

    There is clearly something about this version that is not ticking the right boxes for some people but that has & always will be the case for every FM released, sometimes people will be able to nail down exactly what it is that stops them playing a particular version, mine was FM08 & the horrible default skin, in other cases the hook that is missing will be an intangible & as others have said there is no issue with stating as such.

    I would also agree that to give up on the series because of one version that you do not like is an over-reaction, simply going back to a more enjoyable version & waiting to see if the next release restores the pleasure in playing is the way to go.
    Last edited by Barside; 20-06-2013 at 21:44.

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    In likening Football Manager 2013 Classic to say a car engine - in attempting to improve the torque, somebody has majorly over-tightened the bearings for 2013 to the point that the game has locked up!

    Spotted the car analogy, what do I win?

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    A good old fashioned thrashing from Kriss.

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    But there are literally thousands of solutions to all your problems, which you can do yourself!

    All your concerns are about poor results. FM13 IS more difficult than any previous incarnation, just like the fans wanted. You pick two teams that are difficult to manage. Those three sentences should give you a clue yes?

    What about turning down the game speed so the match doesn't race away when nothing happens? What about playing with a larger database so that more players are available? Or a team with better scouting range and more money?

    I mean, you DO come off as if you want the game to be easy, since you have only disclosed previous good results and current bad results as the reason you won't buy FM14. You also give no indications that you would like advice, or that you would like to learn something new. The OP isn't even criticism!

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    Quote Originally Posted by BiggusD View Post
    But there are literally thousands of solutions to all your problems, which you can do yourself!

    All your concerns are about poor results. FM13 IS more difficult than any previous incarnation, just like the fans wanted. You pick two teams that are difficult to manage. Those three sentences should give you a clue yes?

    What about turning down the game speed so the match doesn't race away when nothing happens? What about playing with a larger database so that more players are available? Or a team with better scouting range and more money?

    I mean, you DO come off as if you want the game to be easy, since you have only disclosed previous good results and current bad results as the reason you won't buy FM14. You also give no indications that you would like advice, or that you would like to learn something new. The OP isn't even criticism!
    This sums it up.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BiggusD View Post
    But there are literally thousands of solutions to all your problems, which you can do yourself!....
    This also sums it up. And literally 1000s or 100s of solutions offered depending who you ask. If you bother to sign in to here that is. The game itself doesn't make it easy to work out where you're going wrong or why what works one week doesn't the next. I don't see anyone wanting an easy game, but to have a clue where it's going wrong might be a start. The ass man/coach feedback is the worst feature of the game now imvho. It's beyond pointless, it's misleading and counter-productive.

    I'm happy with where I'm at with FM13 now, but I've had to read a shedload of guides and am a long term player eager to learn the game as it evolves. I can't imagine how somebody new to the game or series would cope, it must be beyond overwhelming now.

    If a new player, 8 or 9 years old, walks in to this place people will rip his questions/points apart anyway, so despite my initial scepticism I'm now thinking FM Classic was a good move on SI's part.

    It's a fine line between fun, realism, challenging to make a long-established game. Glad it's not my call.

    But if anyone is not finding the game fun anymore then they should be listened to; not made to feel like they're selling pork in a synagogue or condoms in the Vatican.
    Last edited by Jibby123; 20-06-2013 at 20:54.

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    thats why i holiday every game

    because watching them is terribly boring

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cheshire Gaz View Post
    In likening Football Manager 2013 Classic to say a car engine - in attempting to improve the torque, somebody has majorly over-tightened the bearings for 2013 to the point that the game has locked up!

    Spotted the car analogy, what do I win?
    I'll let you off this once ;) http://community.sigames.com/showthr...Banning-System

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    Quote Originally Posted by Barside View Post
    I have to agree that not all criticism needs to be supported with tangible evidence of a games flaws, the OP is clearly finding it difficult to get immersed into FM13 & has put this across in a manner that did not resort to ranting & raving about perceived bias or blatant cheating in the game & that is to be applauded.

    There is clearly something about this version that is not ticking the right boxes for some people but that has & always will be the case for every FM released, sometimes people will be able to nail down exactly what it is that stops them playing a particular version, mine was FM08 & the horrible default skin, in other cases the hook that is missing will be an intangible & as others have said there is no issue with stating as such.

    I would also agree that to give up on the series because of one version that you do not like is an over-reaction, simply going back to a more enjoyable version & waiting to see if the next release restores the pleasure in playing is the way to go.
    Increase in depth, but not the increase in accessibility to go with it.

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    Sorry folks but you can't criticise the criticism, it's well put and in the manner we like to see it.

    You don't have to agree with a word of it of course but do make sure your responses are in the manner of the OP's.

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    @OP: I'm reading between the lines here, so feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

    It looks to me that in previous FM's you've done well in lower leagues by cleverly managing the loan system. Absolutely nothing wrong with that and I'm sure, LLM purists excepted, we've all done it. There was a feeling that it was too easy to get loanees of far too great a quality for the division, which has meant some rebalancing. The knock on is that it often seems almost pointless having a parent club as nobody will come to you. They probably will, but just not the really good players you want or are used to getting. You also seem to suggest that you can't get or buy good quality players and you are forced to make do with poorer quality than you are used to.

    The greater difficulty acquiring good quality players obviously asks the user manager some different questions, requiring a greater focus on the match and managing the squad to keep morale high and the players motivated. You've obviously had some problems in terms of managing the match as your complaints about substitutions indicate. I'm not really sure why you are having the sub problem. The quick sub button (top left) automatically pauses the match when you click it. The tactics screen doesn't, but you can click pause. My question to you is why are you accessing that screen in the first place?

    Here's my big assumption. Your post suggests you are racing through matches (which is why an un-paused substitution takes you 20 virtual minutes to complete). If you are racing through matches, then I query whether you are thinking them through. I'd query how you tactically prepare, what decisions you make in match, how much of the game you actually watch, whether you do or can react to on-field events. I'd like to hep as, in my opinion, FM13 is the best iteration of FM thus far. However, I need to know more about how you play to be able to point you in the right direction.

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    there are some tactics where you can overpower the opposition by just pure team strength though, IL DEVASTO UNDERDOG tactic will do it, no opposition instructions no knowledge of anything, if you have the better team on paper (or slightly worse) you have pretty good odds of winning more games than you lose in the long run

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    Quote Originally Posted by haunted1234 View Post
    there are some tactics where you can overpower the opposition by just pure team strength though, IL DEVASTO UNDERDOG tactic will do it, no opposition instructions no knowledge of anything, if you have the better team on paper (or slightly worse) you have pretty good odds of winning more games than you lose in the long run
    And by doing that, the OP will learn nothing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by birsealmighty View Post
    I'd like to mention something positive here and say that cosmetically it looks like previous incarnations, but even there it feels as though I've hardly got any control. Between the waiting on next highlights which is completely frustrating to watch, yet if you turn away and you need to make a decision - oh no ten minutes have just passed and the game has ended - wwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaiiiiiiit ttttttttttttt, nnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnoooooooooooo, I was trying to make a substitution! The truth is that the match engine has become unexciting to watch, slow and lacks control for the player to make decisions.
    You could try watching the game on more detail (such as comprehensive) in order to get a better grasp of what is going on and increase the time you have to make substitutions. Alternatively, you could ratchet the speed up and the detail so you don't have to watch as much! I would recommend the former.

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    Lower league in FM13 is really hard, I'll grant that. It took me nine seasons (and a second club, after the first went under) to get out of the BSN into the BSP. But whatever style you're playing you always have the option to learn from your mistakes, and there is feedback to help you do so. It's still possible to take any club in the game, and eventually build them up to a point where you can win trophies and continental cups, there are just fewer exploits to enable you to do so with ease. For me, that makes it more rewarding.

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    No wavering here, after FM13 and its obvious flaws I'm taking a break from purchasing another FM this year. I'm still trying to understand this FM.

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    wwfan,

    Sorry for taking time to come back to you. I've not played the game since as I said, however football manager for me is part of my game-playing experience as a hobby. Thanks for taking the time to analyse my original post and I'll now respond to what you are asking me.

    With regards to your first paragraph. I'd like to make clear that I do have patience with the game and do enjoy playing it realistically, what with looking at tactics, training and the squad itself. I did notice that the loanees had been rebalanced. It was not this that caused the frustration for me though. You did hit the nail on the head when you spoke about it being pointless of having parent clubs, when players are not being loaned. It would be prudent of SI to program in say a percentage ratio between clubs in different divisions, where if it is unrealistic then the parent club option is not offered. Say for example Celtic and Montrose. However, it is my belief that the team I support here in Scotland, Dundee Utd - they would loan a player to Montrose. Same as Dundee who have recently been relegated and are now in the new Championship league. Perhaps the value worth or/and the squad status of the player is also the key here with regards to the loan system. I'd expect that a first team player who has gone off form or had a longer-term injury in the game, I genuinely wouldn't expect to be able to loan them as the Montrose manager. However, I would expect to loan a promising player who is on the fringes and not getting enough game time or say a promising player who has fizzled out for the Premier League, but by coming to Montrose for even say a month or two would get them back on track. With regards to buying players it feels as though there just isn't enough to pick from. Again I'm not looking for fantastic players to bulldoze the league or win it unfairly. (I have wondered for the past few seasons whether SI should turn on the ability to manage the Highland League and perhaps even the Juniors in Scotland, some of which are bigger in stature than our so called semi-professional teams.) Now being in the game setup, I've just noticed that a player can add more divisions from their country to the game via the custom option. I'm going to see whether this will make a difference to my enjoyment of the game. However, I did notice your suggestion about enlarging the player database and I will take that on board. I'm going to start another game with the largest player database and see whether it makes a difference.

    In your second paragraph you question why I'm accessing the subs through the tactics screen. I'd answer that simply and say that it is habit, because this is the way I've substituted for I forget how long. I also like to substitute and change tactics at the same time or just change tactics and I tend to use that screen. I have tried to use the quick sub button (and in my defence I have occasionally used it) but it is hard to break a habit. I will give it a go, I'll not stick my head in the sand.

    Now with regards to your third paragraph, I can confirm that I am not racing through matches. Perhaps it is the key highlights that is the problem here. Its a bit like Microsofts 'Start' icon that many of us in the past used to instead close the system. My point here is that you shouldn't have to pause the game to make a substitution. I do understand I'm being a bit arsy here, but with 35 years experience of computer games - to pause a game means I leave the room to do something else, not whilst I'm still actively playing it. It is just an opinion of course and I appreciate that people will have a difference of opinion. Because I haven't been back to the game since my original post, I cannot remember the highlight option beyond that of key, however again I'll give this a try. I'd like to say that I do tactically prepare, that my decisions in a game are thought through, that under key highlights i watch all of the match, that I do react to on-field events.

    I would like to say wwfan that of course nobody is perfect. However, that said I do thank you for your feedback. I'm about to start a new game, with the changes I've said in my paragraphs above. Let us see how I get on and if through the changes I still feel the same - then as someone else has said here - it could very well be that this version of the game just hasn't appealed to me. As I said, this hasn't happened to me before and I took bad with it. Let me go and try another new game and see how I get on. You feel WWFAN that FM13 is the best iteration of the game, yet for four months I haven't played a version of a game that I normally love. It is strange for us both to be on so opposite sides of the fence. So here goes . . .
    Last edited by birsealmighty; 07-08-2013 at 22:12. Reason: Noticed something new in the game setup since I replied originally

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    Im surprised this thread is still not locked! Theres a few mods who lock any thread that dares to say anything bad about their precious FM13...

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    sometimes, I think SI should create a specific sub-forum titled "Why I'm not buying FM**" and everyone could just post in there if they have a problem with the current or next version of FM. I moderated a message board where we had a whole section entitled "Negative Comments" subdivided into specific areas of displeasure about the subject, and whenever someone had something negative to rant about, it went right in there. Just a suggestion...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kriss View Post
    why aren't you aloud to compare the game to cars?

    is this a joke or am I missing something?

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    Quote Originally Posted by JordanBlackpoolFC View Post
    Im surprised this thread is still not locked! Theres a few mods who lock any thread that dares to say anything bad about their precious FM13...
    There are also a few Mods who dish out infractions to people who come here just looking to troll

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    Quote Originally Posted by lemeures View Post
    why aren't you aloud to compare the game to cars?

    is this a joke or am I missing something?
    This sailed over my head too. I'm rather curious, and would love an explanation if anybody can provide one?

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    Same reason as why the use of fanboy is infractable - it's a term almost always thrown out by someone trying to troll in some way.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lemeures View Post
    why aren't you aloud to compare the game to cars?

    is this a joke or am I missing something?
    Like a late 70's/early 80's Jaguar they rarely work & become tiresome very quickly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ackter View Post
    Same reason as why the use of fanboy is infractable - it's a term almost always thrown out by someone trying to troll in some way.
    I thought it was some kind of inside joke. I haven't personally noted a rash of car related trolling, certainly not enough to tailor a rule around. I find myself disappointed! I was half hoping for an elaborate explanation regarding an encounter the SI staff had with Wimbledon, a Ford Mondeo and Peter Crouch. What a story that would have been.

    Quote Originally Posted by Barside View Post
    Like a late 70's/early 80's Jaguar they rarely work & become tiresome very quickly.
    I'm reminded of a Monty Python sketch right now. I believe you just said Jehovah.


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    Before the rule, it was surprisingly common for people to compare the game and owning the game to a car and owning a car. I recall it being particularly prevalent around the time that Steam became compulsory, but it's cropped up in a lot of places.

    When, in fact, it should be noted that FM is not a car.

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    Quote Originally Posted by birsealmighty View Post
    Now with regards to your third paragraph, I can confirm that I am not racing through matches. Perhaps it is the key highlights that is the problem here. Its a bit like Microsofts 'Start' icon that many of us in the past used to instead close the system. My point here is that you shouldn't have to pause the game to make a substitution. I do understand I'm being a bit arsy here, but with 35 years experience of computer games - to pause a game means I leave the room to do something else, not whilst I'm still actively playing it. It is just an opinion of course and I appreciate that people will have a difference of opinion. Because I haven't been back to the game since my original post, I cannot remember the highlight option beyond that of key, however again I'll give this a try. I'd like to say that I do tactically prepare, that my decisions in a game are thought through, that under key highlights i watch all of the match, that I do react to on-field events.

    I would like to say wwfan that of course nobody is perfect. However, that said I do thank you for your feedback. I'm about to start a new game, with the changes I've said in my paragraphs above. Let us see how I get on and if through the changes I still feel the same - then as someone else has said here - it could very well be that this version of the game just hasn't appealed to me. As I said, this hasn't happened to me before and I took bad with it. Let me go and try another new game and see how I get on. You feel WWFAN that FM13 is the best iteration of the game, yet for four months I haven't played a version of a game that I normally love. It is strange for us both to be on so opposite sides of the fence. So here goes . . .
    If you are ramping up the match speed sliders and only using key highlights, then the matches will fly by. A major change is in the naming of key highlights. Key is now just goals. Extended is what Key was previously. Comprehensive is what Extended was previously. If you previously watched Key, you now need to watch Extended to get the same experience.

    The main reason I feel FM13 is the best version of FM yet is how it punishes illogical tactics. The manager must have a holistic and realistic approach to tactics in order for the team to fulfil its potential. You can no longer beat the ME by doing something the AI cannot do. You actually have to beat the AI.

    This has resulted in a fairly steep learning curve for some people who, deliberately or accidentally, made tactics that beat the ME. They were used to setting up one tactic, then pressing continue and buying players. You now have to work your player acquisition around a tactical strategy, be more pro-active in matches, keep morale high and players motivated, as they all more obviously interlink when you don't have a tactic the ME can't cope with. The richness of the game is thus greater.

    This knocks on, of course, to players who haven't previously learned all how all the various modules interrelate feeling they have no control over anything. The feeling is related to their previously having tactics that won 80% of matches no matter what. The control then was an illusion, relating to the user undermining one element of the game. You can still get total control, but it takes more effort and some holistic thought.

    NB: Not saying you ever did this, but this is definitely a theme that has accompanied FM13.

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    I will probably buy FM14 - but for the first time not on release day. FM13.3 is a good game; it lacks variation in the football being played and has quite a few niggles and warts that needs to be sorted, but the AI is better than ever even though it is still not smart enough long-term. The problem isn't FM13.3, but FM13.0-2 - versions no longer available but in our memories... or nightmares, as it were. My experiences with FM from October to March tells me that FM14.0-2 can't be trusted.

    As for the OP's final attempt, good luck with that! Go with Extended highlights and an attacking 442 that doesnt attack with too many players, and sign physical players - also make sure to read some of the team-talk related threads on here since they will help you maintain good form. If that doesn't really change your experience with FM13, post your tactic in the tactics forum before giving up completely. Cheers!

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    Quote Originally Posted by BiggusD View Post
    As for the OP's final attempt, good luck with that! Go with Extended highlights and an attacking 442 that doesnt attack with too many players, and sign physical players - also make sure to read some of the team-talk related threads on here since they will help you maintain good form. If that doesn't really change your experience with FM13, post your tactic in the tactics forum before giving up completely. Cheers!
    Agree with all of this. One piece of advice would be to not take out your frustrations on your players in team talks. Having been thumped 6-1 I gave my team the hair dryer treatment and their morale dropped massively. I felt better briefly, but then I had to spend all week massaging their egos, so they had some confidence ahead of the next game. Also, it turned out the poor performance was the other team continually punishing a weakness in my tactics & players (slow, unintelligent players attempting to play offside high up the pitch). I tweaked my tactics and I've gone from also rans to potential title challengers in a month or two.

    Also, if you're anything like me, and a lot of other users here, I suspect you've become used to playing the game, not football. Too many little tweaks here and there because the sliders allow you to do so. I've finally embraced shouts & truly immersed myself into the Tactics Creator and I'm much better off for it. Three extra notches to right, or just shout "Play Wider"? I know which should be more intuative and yet I felt I knew best because like you, "that's how I always played since CM".

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    That said I play with 5-3-2 with wingbacks, but the setup is logical and so my players are comfortable within it. That is probably the most critical part.

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    Quote Originally Posted by wwfan View Post
    They were used to setting up one tactic, then pressing continue and buying players.
    That sentence is so true and vital to understand the current situation with FM and its player base. A lot, and I mean A LOT of people have gotten used to that way of playing. I'm talking about CM/FM veterans who know it's not all that realistic to play the game that way, but it's definitely more fun for them (since "fun" is inherently subjective) and way more suitable in terms of time consumption. Before anyone mentions it; no, FMC is not a solution, at least not in its current state.

    As a result, many players are suddenly facing a mountain-steep learning curve and are forced to change their years-long habits (and we know how hard it is to break habits). That's the cause of all the frustration around and I think the "transition" is still undergoing and won't be completed even after FM 14.

    The "create one tactic-buy/sell players-press continue" approach has been widespread among FM players for years and it is going to take years to get rid of it and change the mindset.

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    I still play like that, to an extent.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ackter View Post
    I still play like that, to an extent.
    Me too. Once I have found a tactic I am happy with, I only make minor changes to it in-match when necessary.

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    I do for like the first season so I'm happy with my basic formation, team set up, what works in each position etc. Then I just holiday through matches and let my assman do all the work.

    He changes to a 442 for about 30% of matches, and in 30% of time during that match, but mostly he sticks with my formation and always sticks with my team selections.

    I just wish I could instruct him on who I'd like given game time from the bench if things are going well.

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    FMC should be based on how Ackter plays, if you saw his saved game you wouldn't believe how simple it actually is.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cleon View Post
    FMC should be based on how Ackter plays, if you saw his saved game you wouldn't believe how simple it actually is.
    That is similar to him in real life though isn't it............


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    Quote Originally Posted by Cleon View Post
    FMC should be based on how Ackter plays, if you saw his saved game you wouldn't believe how simple it actually is.
    That's why you should write about it in a blog tbh.

    Also, shut up SRL.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jibby123 View Post
    This also sums it up. And literally 1000s or 100s of solutions offered depending who you ask. If you bother to sign in to here that is. The game itself doesn't make it easy to work out where you're going wrong or why what works one week doesn't the next. I don't see anyone wanting an easy game, but to have a clue where it's going wrong might be a start. The ass man/coach feedback is the worst feature of the game now imvho. It's beyond pointless, it's misleading and counter-productive.

    I'm happy with where I'm at with FM13 now, but I've had to read a shedload of guides and am a long term player eager to learn the game as it evolves. I can't imagine how somebody new to the game or series would cope, it must be beyond overwhelming now.
    Personally I struggled to empathise with your OP, because as others have pointed out it did come across as though it was the lack of success that has put you off the game. The above really speaks to me though, and I came around to your position because of it. I'm assuming that it isn't the lack of success that has annoyed you as much as not being able to figure out how to improve on your weaknesses. Especially from the position of NOT using external help i.e. this forum, to figure things out. I have made a few posts about this, my enjoyment of FM13 has been hampered by the fact that at times I just have no idea what is going wrong.

    The bolded bit I particularly agree with, I think the only helpful piece of assman advice I have ever received was something along the lines of "There is too much distance between our midfield and attack, the strikers are isolated." This was a rare piece of advice that actually lead me to change something. On an early demo game I had my assistant telling me "we should get more crosses into the box since we are winning most of the headers today" and I checked the stats and my defenders have won all their headers, and my strikers have lost the 1 or 2 they have attempted. To me, putting more crosses into the box is a stupid suggestion based on these stats. This is an extreme example, most of the time the advice isn't as bad as this, it's just useless.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ackter View Post
    I still play like that, to an extent.
    Even though I made the critical post, so do I. For over 80% of my matches, I play the same tactic, but load up a different shout strategy. It's very rare that I do anything more than that.

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    I play the game pretty simple, always have done as I don't like watching games I prefer to play on commentary. This year's FM I struggled quite a bit but I didn't do myself any favours by only wanting to play a 4-3-1-2 & 4-1-3-2 formation and not watching any my games, I then got some great advice on the forum regarding the formations I wanted to play and how to keep things simple basically. Well it is now working a treat my Deportivo game is by far my most enjoyable save on this year's FM.

    I am currently in my 6th season, I have finished :

    1st Season - 10th
    2nd Season - 3rd
    3rd Season - 3rd
    4th Season - 2nd
    5th Season - 2nd
    6th Season - Currently 1st with a 9pt lead with 10 games to go so hoping this will be the year I finish 1st.

    I have been to 6 Spanish Cup Finals and won 3 Spanish Cups plus I won the Europa League. I think I have done a pretty decent job for someone who doesn't watch the games.
    Last edited by lennon67; 08-08-2013 at 23:32.

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    I have found my love for this game waning to be honest, I have been playing since champ manager 99-00 and

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kristof1982 View Post
    I have found my love for this game waning to be honest, I have been playing since champ manager 99-00 and
    ...the suspense! And what, man, AND WHAT?!

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    Oh well,you can't please everyone. For me FM2013 is better in EVERY way to previous versions with enhanced tactics,greatly improved and smoother 3D graphics,stability from crashes etc etc. Yes the media and AI are pants but that would require a massive amount of programming to simulate with anything resembling accuracy. For now I'm perfectly happy with developments and personally look forward immensely to each new edition !

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    My biggest gripe with FM 13 is a distinct inability to understand why I am both succeeding or failing. As a consequence I don't feel much of a sense of achievement if I do well because it feels as though I just got lucky. I'll give you two examples of recent saves.

    Single Player Game: Tranmere Rovers
    In my first season I absolutely walked League 1 by 13 points in the end after signing only two players on loan. In my second season I finished a respectable 4th in the Championship and I'm about to play my playoff game(s).

    Multiplayer Game: Liverpool
    1st season I finished 5th, second season I finished 3rd, and third season I was sacked after just 14 games with a forward line of Suarez, Jovetic and Cavani.

    I play the game identically each time I load it up: full match until I'm happy with my system, and then I play on no less detailed than Comprehensive. For the life of me I have no way of knowing how or why I failed with Liverpool. What I can tell you is that my strikers were missing one-on-ones like you wouldn't believe, I was hitting the woodwork four or five times a game, my defenders were doing the most ridiculous things I've ever seen, I was getting four or five injuries a match, and my red cards took a dramatic increase, not to mention that in my final game I had a whopping 37 shots on goal (9 on target) home to Blackburn Rovers, scoring none, but losing 2-0 after they had a total of two shots. One of their goals, Coates hit a 30 yard backpass to their striker, and the other, Skrtel did something off the ball in the penalty area to give away a penalty. The replay showed their striker just got on all fours and proceeded to act like a dog—enough for the ref to give a penalty.

    Now don't get me wrong, it's my opinion that when these oddities start to occur, it's the game's way of "communicating" something is awry, and I can take it on the chin. The sad thing is that it's not my Liverpool save that's bothered me so; my "success" with Tranmere Rovers has left me feeling decidely hollow, because it appears the governing factor all along was blind luck.

    How can the user fix a problem that he doesn't see? That's my biggest issue right now with the game; it feels like a shot in the dark. With the assistant and coaching feedback right now—utterly useless it has to be said—there is no way to figure out what is going wrong or why it is. I'm not going to feign not buying FM 14—I will, because I love the game and always have—but for the first time I think across an FM career spanning two decades, I'm left feeling disenchanted.

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    I think Liverpool is a very difficult club to manage. Did you win any trophies at all while you were there? Did you choose International Footballer as starting reputation?

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    after the disaster last time, iam gonna buy it when the last patch is out, bought it last time for early beta access in september i think?, and the game was barely playable till late march

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    Quote Originally Posted by BiggusD View Post
    I think Liverpool is a very difficult club to manage. Did you win any trophies at all while you were there? Did you choose International Footballer as starting reputation?
    Nah, no trophies, mate. Only played two seasons and 14 games. I always start as an International manager.

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    Quote Originally Posted by darthrodent View Post
    Nah, no trophies, mate. Only played two seasons and 14 games. I always start as an International manager.
    Maybe the players never really respected you so that you couldnt turn around a run of bad form.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BiggusD View Post
    Maybe the players never really respected you so that you couldnt turn around a run of bad form.
    Well that's my point exactly; the best we can do is speculate. I finished 3rd last season (2nd season) and the only player I brought in this year was Cavani. What if I asked the question: Why did I walk the league with Tranmere Rovers in my other save? I'd like to say it was all down to my tactical acumen—after all I play on full highlights or comprehensive and constantly respond to what's in front of me—but then why did I fail so miserably with Liverpool after having a world class team? I played exactly the same way—the way I always do—patiently responding to the match in front of me. If indeed it were my tactics, then the game has a deplorable way of communicating that to me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JordanBlackpoolFC View Post
    Im surprised this thread is still not locked! Theres a few mods who lock any thread that dares to say anything bad about their precious FM13...
    You noticed that too?

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    I completely agree with the OP. I won't buy 14 due to how poor 13 is.

    It staggers me that after having a graphical match engine for three years it is worse than it ever has been. The UI is clunky and unresponsive and the intuitive feel of 12 has gone.

    With the exception of the Development list and the Unwanted list, there is nothing in 13 I would miss if I could get 12 to work again and even those two features are little more than streamlining.

    Assistant managers are still idiots and can't be trusted to do anything. Press conferences are still a tedious and unnecessary chore and player interaction is still far too limited. Instead of putting in a Director of Football (who does literally nothing for me) give us more ways to interact with the players, like talking to them about why they are unhappy with what you said in the press. Or let us talk to them about what they said in the press.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Legion22 View Post
    I completely agree with the OP. I won't buy 14 due to how poor 13 is.

    It staggers me that after having a graphical match engine for three years it is worse than it ever has been. The UI is clunky and unresponsive and the intuitive feel of 12 has gone.

    With the exception of the Development list and the Unwanted list, there is nothing in 13 I would miss if I could get 12 to work again and even those two features are little more than streamlining.

    Assistant managers are still idiots and can't be trusted to do anything. Press conferences are still a tedious and unnecessary chore and player interaction is still far too limited. Instead of putting in a Director of Football (who does literally nothing for me) give us more ways to interact with the players, like talking to them about why they are unhappy with what you said in the press. Or let us talk to them about what they said in the press.
    I agree with a lot of this although I don't think the game is poor by any stretch of the imagination. In real life you would know a lot more about your players than is currently possible in FM 13. A striker may, for example, say "I play better as a lone front man". I'd like FM 14 to provide a lot more feedback so we're more tuned in to the consequences of our actions and decisions. I don't like this hollow feeling that's invoked when I do well.

    The match engine I think is okay, but I feel the user is still lacking control. Let's say for example I want my left back to get the ball and kick it out for a corner every time he gets it, then the game should permit it. A silly example I concede, however players still don't adhere to instructions as best they should and the Tactical Creator lacks robustness and flexibility.

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    Civ5 is a complete different game than Civ4. They simply just have different designs. There is no standard as to which game is better. Just personal preference. In terms of graphics, however, Civ5 is much better than Civ4.

    Football Manager, on the other hand, aims to simulation life as a football coach. The tactic options, player interactions, etc have to be as close to real life as possible. Now there is a standard to it so you can compare which game is better.

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    I also find myself wondering whether or not I will buy FM14. FM13 has been a buggy mess for me from day one. It was in a very poor state indeed when released and I found myself extremely frustrated with the game especially when a bug killed my main save after I had put 100+ hours into it.

    Personally, I feel as though the game has become somewhat stale for me. For FM13, I found that the new release wasn't actually that different from the previous version but was far less polished and came with a number of serious issues. I have to be honest and say that I felt really annoyed that a new 'feature' like taxes (I'm a virtual football manager, not a freaking accountant!) was added and didn't even work properly until several patches had been released to fix it. I had a lot of fun with FM12 and I just don't really understand how the game took such a big step backwards for FM13.

    I'd write more but I'm just ... well ... tired of the game at the moment. Tired of the hype (e.g. 'over 900 other new features!') when all I want is a working and enjoyable football management game.

    (I know I'm being negative and that others may well be pleased with the game this year. I guess I'm just letting out my frustration after some very poor experiences with FM13. )

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    Quote Originally Posted by darthrodent View Post
    I'd like FM 14 to provide a lot more feedback so we're more tuned in to the consequences of our actions and decisions.
    Amen.

    One of the major issues with FM for several versions now has been the lack of/inconsistent/poor/confusing feedback. It gives the player the feeling that he or she has a lack of control over the various outcomes. It creates a false difficulty where progression/mastery comes through trial and error rather than proper strategy. This is a problem in the tactical part of the game (although I must say that it has improved somewhat since the introduction of the tactics creator interface), the team talks, the player interactions, the press conferences, the training and in fact just about everything there is in the game!

    There is a lack of feedback about the potential consequences of many of the decisions that you can make in the game. There is sometimes a little feedback about the consequences after your actions but it is mostly inadequate, often confusing and sometimes even contradicted on different screens.

    After years of playing this game, I like to think that I have achieved a reasonable level of competence, but I can't be the only one who sometimes finds team talks baffling, for example. Sometimes I'll get an odd and unexpected reaction given the context in which I gave my team talk and I'll have no adequate feedback at all to explain it. I guess the random number generator decided to mess with me, which is not a problem at all, but the game should at least give me the illusion of control and an idea of why the player might have reacted like that in football management terms. Otherwise, how do I know when I've made a strategical error, had a unique issue/event occur that is outside of my control or just been unlucky?

    I think you summed up one major problem with the game, Darthrodent. Feedback is really poor and the user often perceives that he or she has a lack of control as a result of this.
    Last edited by crouchaldinho; 13-08-2013 at 19:25.

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    I've been through spells of not enjoying the FM series, from 07-10 I barely played the game so I understand when people get frustrated with the game or it just gets stale to them. However FM 13 is the game I have played the most since 06, i've just finished my 31'st season after starting from the beta and not looking back. Like most people I have my own issues with the game, revolving mainly around the transfer AI but I can honestly say this is the most enjoyable FM to me in the past 7 years. I haven't found it easy, in fact it's been one of the most difficult FM's to work out for me but i've really enjoyed the challenge.

    When I got really frustrated with FM 07 and it started feeling stale to me the best thing I did was take a break from the game and I have come back enjoying each version from 11 onwards and i'm really looking forward to 14. My advice to anyone who felt like me back in 07 is don't be afraid to take a break, there are two other sports games that i've bought on a regular basis that I won't be buying this year simply because they have got stale to me but I know i'll be one of the first in line for FM 14.

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    One of the major issues with FM for several versions now has been the lack of/inconsistent/poor/confusing feedback.
    In my current game with Leeds.

    Playing West Brom at West Brom in the League Cup. My astm recommends as a team talk "We are favourites here...." I lose the game 2-0 and the he says "This is the kind of game we should be winning......"

    So I should be beating premier league opposition away from home.

    Same season, playing 17th placed Middlesborough at home "we are underdogs......" Draw the game 0-0 and he wants to tell them "well played for a supposed underdog"

    Similarly in 12 my assistant manager constantly told me "X looks lik he is used to playing at a higher tempo" even though X had been playing that position, in that formation without change for 10 years.

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    I think you summed up one major problem with the game, Darthrodent. Feedback is really poor and the user often perceives that he or she has a lack of control as a result of this.
    This is my main gripe with press conferences. For example, if you respond that "X injury is a blow but I feel we can cover it" and X becomes unhappy, you cannot talk to X about what you said. Thus the only sensible thing to do in press conferences is respond "no comment"

    So what is the point?

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    Using a car analogy is infractable? What next? A ban for anyone using the terms "Game of two halves" or "Jumpers for goalposts?"

    Are vans or motorbikes on the "banned" list? Can we compare FM to anything mechanical? It's a literal minefield of illogical nonsense!

  68. #68
    Amateur
    Join Date
    5th December 2011
    Posts
    96

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    I tried the demo for FM13 and really really didn't like it, so I didn't buy it - first time since CM2. I'll try the demo of '14 and see, but I don't regret not buying '13 at all.

  69. #69
    Amateur
    Join Date
    28th January 2013
    Posts
    24

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    There are a number of problems here, some due to the lack of good feedback:

    1. Defenders conceding corners when not under pressure at all
    2. Heading upwards
    3. Players find the most creative ways to lose possession
    4. Clearing to the middle of the pitch
    5. Lack of through balls (which is why frankly ridiculous formations like a flat midfield 4-5-1 lead to top-half finishes)
    6. Long shots, long shots, long shots

    I have an additional pet peeve being that physicality is valued far more than technical skill in this version, so teams who do nothing else than lumping it up the middle do quite well in league play.

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