Real Madrid C.F. - Moving On From Mourinho

Before I go any further, I would like to make it absolutely clear that this thread is in the discussion area of the tactics forum for a reason, meaning that no downloads will be made available . Anyone PM'ing me with such requests will be ignored, and posts in the thread treated with the scorn they deserve. Also I understand that doing a thread with such a big club won’t be to everyones taste. So if you don’t like it, then fair enough, but please don’t clog up the thread with criticism.

Introduction

I didn't start this save with Real Madrid with a view to creating a thread about it. I just wanted a bit of fun managing a player I love; Cristiano Ronaldo. It has turned into much more than that, and that after just thirty games of the opening season.

With this thread I will be showing you how I initially set things up, and how and why it brought me success. I’ll then explain the deficiencies I saw with the tactic, and how I will look to counter that by changing how we set up.

First things first, here are our recent results and the league table after thirty games;

Yes both the results and table show we are going along very well, and many of you will be thinking; "why on earth is he changing things?" Well to find that out, we have to go back to the start………..

The Beginning - Mourinho's 4-2-3-1

Seen as I began the save without much thought about tactics, (although I am of course going to explain in some detail why I went with the system and the player roles, etc, etc, I did), I just did what I perceive things to be like at Real under Mourinho, so I naturally went with a 4-2-3-1 counter attacking system. As this is Mourinho's Madrid, the club at the start of the game has a group of players that are suited to this system, so why would I choose any other way of playing?

Anyway, this is how I deployed it, and the tactical instructions to boot;

Mourinho’s AI self sets up with the two Defensive Midfielders in the MC position, but this is just a personal choice of mine, as I think it offers better defensive stability.

Style And Strategy

It's fairly basic stuff; a simple counter attacking strategy with a balanced style. The strategy offers much greater control than what people think. All it means to me is that your team is set that bit deeper than in the "Standard" or "Control" strategy, and will look to launch counter attacks when the opportunity comes. How the rest of it plays out is dependent on the other settings you select.

Also alot people seem to think that you need to go with a "Rigid" style when playing on the counter in order to hold the shape together. I think this is wrong. To an extent. Yes it helps to keep shape and lessens creative freedom, but why should I necessarily want my team to hold its shape just because I'm playing Counter Attacking football? After all, I still want my players to be able to express themselves given the chance.

The Passing is set to short because I want us to keep the ball when we can. With this being a counter attacking formation, more direct passes will still be played when we spring forward from a defensive position despite this setting.

Creative Freedom and Roaming are just left on default. The TC gives each player what it considers to be the best settings depending on the style/strategy you are playing. It does that for every setting if left on default, and these two I generally prefer not to tamper with.

Even though the defensive line is naturally deep when using the counter strategy, that doesn't mean Closing Down can't be set to "Press More". The defensive line remains the same, but the players will close down when the opposition have the ball in certain areas. Combined with that is Tackling which I set to "More Cautious". I want the opposition to be pressured, but I don't want the boys diving in like lunatics.

Marking is set to "Zonal". I just like players to remain in shape and not go following a particular man all over the place.

And finally Crossing. I set that to "Drilled" to balls are fired in quickly to the near post. I feel this suits the counter strategy perfectly.

Player Roles And How They Work

Here is the list of roles I have used in this tactic, and how I want them to play out;

Goalkeeper - Sweeper Keeper - Support

I want my goalkeeper to be in a position to collect loose balls and pop passes off to others starting counter attacks. Just because he's a goalkeeper doesn't mean he can't be involved in the attacking play.

Rightback - Fullback - Support

Upon starting the save the man I deciced I would have here most often was Alvaro Arbeloa. That dictated the role and duty. He's a terrific defensive player but hasn't got the attributes to be flying forwards and putting crosses in.

Leftback - Wingback - Attack

This role means my leftback gives great support high upfield in space vacated by the AML. I have two players perfect for this role - choosing between them is a tough choice each game.

Centreback Right/Left - Central Defender - Stopper/Cover

I put these two positions together because they work as a pair. I have found this to be the best combination for central defenders as it offers what I expect from a centre back pairing. The Stopper steps slightly ahead of his partner winning headers and closing down attacking players. The Covering man does exactly what it says on the tin; he covers behind his partner, sweeping up loose balls. Think Vidic/Ferdinand.

Defensive Midfielder Right Centre - Defensive Midfielder - Support

A role I love as it offers so much more than an Anchor-man. Just like in real life, I want my DM to protect the central defenders when we're under pressure, but when we get forward I also want him to join in with the attacks.

Defensive Midfielder Left Centre - Deep Lying Playmaker - Defend

The man, the role, that makes us tick. He starts off all our attacks by picking out more advanced players, and with the defend duty he also plays a crucial role sitting infront of the central defenders at (almost) all times.

Attacking Midfield Right - Inside Forward - Support

The man I have in this role is left footed, so the aim is to get him cutting inside onto his stronger foot with a view to either getting in behind the oppositions defence and onto through balls, or slipping through passes of his own.

Attacking Midfield Left - Inside Forward - Attack

This is the position of the main man in the team - Cristiano Ronaldo. It's a role I like anyway though, as he joins up directly with the striker in my system looking to overload the oppositions central defenders. Ronaldo fits this role perfectly with the "Cuts Inside" PPM, and it leaves the space available for my leftback to exploit.

Attacking Midfield Centre - Advanced Playmaker - Support

With me having an Advanced Forward and two Inside Forwards, the last thing I need is someone else looking to join up with those three, so giving the AP role the "Support" duty means he will look to hang that bit deeper and provide through balls for those other three attacking players.

Striker - Advanced Forward - Attack

Convention has you believe that it is best to have a lone striker on a support duty to he can bring others into play. But with me having three players behind him, I feel it will help create space for the IF's by having by having my striker chasing down loose balls and applying pressure to the defence.

The screenshot (some way up the page now!) above shows how the team shapes up. Alot of people do not understand that this image is how the players shape up without the ball and misinterpret it as being how the system always sets up, and as such they think that playing in this formation results in a big gap being left in the MC strata area when you attack. This is not the case. After watching many games over and over and looking closely at things, this is how, (roughly), it shapes up when attacking with the roles I have;

(Please ignore the player roles in the screenshot, it is just to demonstrate where players are on the pitch)

It looks crazy I suppose, but it's not. With the player roles I have this is roughly what happens when we attack;

• The players break from their defensive shape and hurt the opposition at pace mainly through the middle via the two IF's and AF. It is therefore vital to have an AMC with exceptional decision making in order to pick the right passes.

• The leftback offers great width and will exploit the space infront of him, aiming to get to the by-line and get crosses in.

• The rightback offers support to the AMR, looking to cross from deeper and being in a position to get back quickly if the opposition break forward.

• The DMRC breaks forward and also supports the attacking play, even breaking into the box if the opportunity arises.

• The central defenders remain in line while the DMLC moves into a position infront of them, picking up loose balls if our attacks break down.

This is a great thread, a nice evolution. What's it like however, if the opposition put a heavy emphasis on marking the DLP, does the Librero pick up enough of the slack in linking midfield and defense coherently?

Libero

A great thread this Tom sir!!! I'll give it another read later and post some questions, I'm sure I can think of some for you

Interesting thread and well presented as usual.

My concern would be that using a back 3 and a DM to retain 4 players in defensive positions when we have the ball hampers our offensive efficacy. Do you notice this much when playing against lone striker formations or where the opposition simply decide to drop right off with their most advanced player perhaps man-marking your DM?

Also, is that a weird bug with the Supercoppa Leg 1 coming after Leg 2?

Very nice thread and a nice evolution from the 4231 to 32131(?).

Also, is that a weird bug with the Supercoppa Leg 1 coming after Leg 2?

I'll reply to your question(s) tomorrow when I'm on my laptop and not my phone. (That goes for the comments from others too).

But in response to the one above, the first leg had to be rearranged because of fixture clashes. It was meant to come in the midweek after the Valldolid game, but had to be moved as Sevilla were involved in a Europa League qualifier. It is indeed a bug, though the news conferences before/after the games and team talk wordings during were as though it was first leg then second leg.

Odd little one that.

Great thread tomtuck01, extremely well presented.

It explains the initial concept well, highlights the issue and depicts expertly how you addressed it.

I particularly like the images you've posted of the team with the ball, very good idea.

My questions are along the line of Shrewnaldo's: I know you like defensive solidity, but is the third central defender excessive with a DM? In Spain you play a lot of wide 4-2-3-1 formations, and what your shape allows is for you to man mark the wide attacking roles with your wingbacks, and the ST with a DC. However, I wonder if your central area might be a bit exposed?

If I played that shape, I'd play a flat 5 in midfield and attempt to overrun your MC. I could do this, mark your AMC line players and still have a man advantage. If I also marked your striker, your wingbacks would have a hard time supplying those marked players.

Another great thread from you Tom.

Interesting to see your tactical evolution take place and I imagine you're thinking of ways to recreate your attacking shape?

-

I've been trying to get a 4-2-3-1 (2 MC's) to work with Dortmund and struggling but I think this has inspired me to give the 4-2-3-1 Deep another go.

I'll make sure to follow this closely.

This is a great thread, a nice evolution. What's it like however, if the opposition put a heavy emphasis on marking the DLP, does the Librero pick up enough of the slack in linking midfield and defense coherently?

It hasn't really come up to be honest, as I have a great player for the DLP-Defend role in Xabi Alonso who is superb in the role. He is nowever32 now and can't go on forever, so I'm sure I'll find out!

The Libero does that anyway though, his passing maps, (which I'll post if you like), show that.

Libero

A great thread this Tom sir!!! I'll give it another read later and post some questions, I'm sure I can think of some for you

Thanks as always Cle. I look forward to any questions you have.

Interesting thread and well presented as usual.

My concern would be that using a back 3 and a DM to retain 4 players in defensive positions when we have the ball hampers our offensive efficacy. Do you notice this much when playing against lone striker formations or where the opposition simply decide to drop right off with their most advanced player perhaps man-marking your DM?

Thanks alot Shrew.

Well, it's a CM not a DM, so he's a touch further forward thatn what a DM in the same role would be. Offensively things still work fine, we have two players wide, three attacking the box and one just that bit deeper in the AP-Support. Six players attacking is more than enough. If a team sits particularly deep, I'm happy enough to switch to the "Control" strategy, thus moving the CM, (and defensive line in general), further up and supplementing attacking play that bit more.

Regarding the opposition dropping so deep that they man-mark the DLP-Defend, I can't say I've noticed anything significant in all honesty. Though as I pointed up further up the post, that may be simply because of the quality of the player I have in the role.

Very nice thread and a nice evolution from the 4231 to 32131(?).

Cheers dude. Always nice to see nice remarks.

Great thread tomtuck01, extremely well presented.

It explains the initial concept well, highlights the issue and depicts expertly how you addressed it.

I particularly like the images you've posted of the team with the ball, very good idea.

My questions are along the line of Shrewnaldo's: I know you like defensive solidity, but is the third central defender excessive with a DM? In Spain you play a lot of wide 4-2-3-1 formations, and what your shape allows is for you to man mark the wide attacking roles with your wingbacks, and the ST with a DC. However, I wonder if your central area might be a bit exposed?

If I played that shape, I'd play a flat 5 in midfield and attempt to overrun your MC. I could do this, mark your AMC line players and still have a man advantage. If I also marked your striker, your wingbacks would have a hard time supplying those marked players.

As I pointed out above, it's not a DM, it's an MC. With him being a DLP-Defend he is that bit deeper so doesn't tend to get overrun as he's not really in the area to do so.

Regaridng man-marking, I prefer not to do so in the central areas as I don't like my players being dragged out of position. I'm happy to do so in wide areas though. For example, when we play the wide 4-2-3-1, (the formation we face most in Spain), then I go with the WB's marking the opposition AMR/L, then I have four players, (Libero, two DC's, and MC), centrally to deal with the threat through with the middle, (the opposition CM's, AMC, and STC). Add to the fact that my AMC-AP (Support) drops back a touch with the duty he's on, we always have a spare man in that middle ground.

As for how you'd play against this shape, thankfully I'll never have to do that!

Another great thread from you Tom.

Interesting to see your tactical evolution take place and I imagine you're thinking of ways to recreate your attacking shape?

-

I've been trying to get a 4-2-3-1 (2 MC's) to work with Dortmund and struggling but I think this has inspired me to give the 4-2-3-1 Deep another go.

I'll make sure to follow this closely.

Well, I have thought about something attacking wise.

Thanks for the nice comments, I hope you can managed to make the deep 4-2-3-1 work with Dortmund.

-----------------------

Hope all that makes sense - I'm not the best at explaining things at times. :o

As I pointed out above, it's not a DM, it's an MC. With him being a DLP-Defend he is that bit deeper so doesn't tend to get overrun as he's not really in the area to do so.

My mistake, I was just looking at the triangle in the shot under the Greater Defensive Stability heading and assumed it was a DM.

As you probably know, I share your thoughts about the DLP Defend, so will withdraw my constructive feedback there!

I understand what Shrewnaldo is saying, and there is a case for adjusting your shape or roles against certain formations, but I get the impression that you tend to stick to one shape generally when you have settled on it in a save?

That was generally my approach but I have started to mix it up a bit with subtle variations of the same shape saved and it is proving to be effective.

Part of my pre-match ritual now is to assess the opposition shape and decide which of my 3 options best exposes their weaknesses.

Thanks alot Shrew.

Well, it's a CM not a DM, so he's a touch further forward thatn what a DM in the same role would be. Offensively things still work fine, we have two players wide, three attacking the box and one just that bit deeper in the AP-Support. Six players attacking is more than enough. If a team sits particularly deep, I'm happy enough to switch to the "Control" strategy, thus moving the CM, (and defensive line in general), further up and supplementing attacking play that bit more.

Regarding the opposition dropping so deep that they man-mark the DLP-Defend, I can't say I've noticed anything significant in all honesty. Though as I pointed up further up the post, that may be simply because of the quality of the player I have in the role.

You see, this is why I shouldn't post on forums late at night. My mind isn't the sharpest these days as it is!!

Was there any particular reason you didn't use the new set-up in the 5 highlighted games? A particular formation from the opposition?

Great thread Tom! Just tell one thing please, what kind of player did you use in the supporter Defensive Midielder role in your deep 4-2-3-1? Besides good defensive attributes, does he need good passing and creativity?

Thank you

You see, this is why I shouldn't post on forums late at night. My mind isn't the sharpest these days as it is!!

Was there any particular reason you didn't use the new set-up in the 5 highlighted games? A particular formation from the opposition?

I had just come into the thread to ask the same question, I was curious too.

Great thread mate!

Its funny I'm currently playing with Madrid and looking for a tactical change and I never thought about playing a Libero. What kind of player to you play in this position? I guess a player similar to a Ball Playing Defender in the Hummels way should do the trick?

My mistake, I was just looking at the triangle in the shot under the Greater Defensive Stability heading and assumed it was a DM.

As you probably know, I share your thoughts about the DLP Defend, so will withdraw my constructive feedback there!

I understand what Shrewnaldo is saying, and there is a case for adjusting your shape or roles against certain formations, but I get the impression that you tend to stick to one shape generally when you have settled on it in a save?

That was generally my approach but I have started to mix it up a bit with subtle variations of the same shape saved and it is proving to be effective.

Part of my pre-match ritual now is to assess the opposition shape and decide which of my 3 options best exposes their weaknesses.

It's not that I like to stick with a shape, it's just I've kind of got the mindset of "if it's not broke, don't fix it", hence why I changed systems to the back three/Libero. Even though I won every tropy available in the first season, there was an issue with the 4-2-3-1 which has been highlighted and it would have come unstuck - indeed it did, in the 2-0 home defeat to Levante, (on the first set of results posted), and that prompted my thoughts about changing things. I'm sure I'll find a problem with the current system and something will done to rectify the problem.

And I see what you mean about having different options, and it's something I've been working on.................

Was there any particular reason you didn't use the new set-up in the 5 highlighted games? A particular formation from the opposition?

I had just come into the thread to ask the same question, I was curious too.

Was down to injuries mainly, with suspensions playing a part in the run of three games in November. For the two league games in the run of three I only had one proper CB available and didn't want to play two midfielders in my back three. And then for the FC Kobenhavn Champions League match I just rested players as I had already qualified for the next round.

Great thread Tom! Just tell one thing please, what kind of player did you use in the supporter Defensive Midielder role in your deep 4-2-3-1? Besides good defensive attributes, does he need good passing and creativity?

Thank you

I used Sami Khedira. The player in the role doesn't need to have great passing and creativity, just very good mentals and and physicals - stamina inparticular on the physicals side of things.

Khedira had a great season in the role, scoring eight and assisting ten in forty-three games.

Great thread mate!

Cheers Cedrik.

Its funny I'm currently playing with Madrid and looking for a tactical change and I never thought about playing a Libero. What kind of player to you play in this position? I guess a player similar to a Ball Playing Defender in the Hummels way should do the trick?

Hummels would be a good option. In a save I had with Dortmund I played a back three, and he was excellent in the Libero role.

With Madrid though, there are a few good options at the club already. Sergio Ramos and Raphael Varane are sound options, but I've found Sami Khedira to be very good in the role. He's played in the role eighteen times this season, averaging 7.24.

Hummels would be a good option. In a save I had with Dortmund I played a back three, and he was excellent in the Libero role.

With Madrid though, there are a few good options at the club already. Sergio Ramos and Raphael Varane are sound options, but I've found Sami Khedira to be very good in the role. He's played in the role eighteen times this season, averaging 7.24.

Thanks man that's real helpful. I do have a question- ever used Modric as DLP? On my save Xabi Alonso is out with a long term injury and i'm tempt to use Modric but I feel it would leave my way too loose at the back. I guess Ramos could also be an option?

The DLP Defend Role/Duty requires a lot of defensive qualities, and Modric lacks Marking, Positioning, Strength and Tackling.

You really would need to be desperate to even consider using him.

The DLP Defend Role/Duty requires a lot of defensive qualities, and Modric lacks Marking, Positioning, Strength and Tackling.

You really would need to be desperate to even consider using him.

Yep i'm desperate but I guess Ramos would be a safer bet. Had a hell of a game on his first start as DLP against Manchester City. Thanks mate.

The problem with playing Ramos in that role is his lack of crativity, surely?

The problem with playing Ramos in that role is his lack of crativity, surely?

Yeah I guess I should have brought in a more able back up to Alonso but out of my current squad Ramos seems like the safer bet. Modric lacks defensive skills and Jose Rodriguez is making great progress but nowhere near being able to hold a starting place in the squad.

thank you tom

Yeah I guess I should have brought in a more able back up to Alonso but out of my current squad Ramos seems like the safer bet. Modric lacks defensive skills and Jose Rodriguez is making great progress but nowhere near being able to hold a starting place in the squad.

Give Rodriguez a couple of years and he'll be ready.

thank you tom

No problem at all. Anything else, don't hesitate to ask.

Sir, I would like to ask you about IF support. I thought that it is impossible to have player on AMC and IF support, becouse I thought that they would occupy same space.

Could you explain how they work together?

Thanks also I am playing same formation and tactic for some time.

Sir, I would like to ask you about IF support. I thought that it is impossible to have player on AMC and IF support, becouse I thought that they would occupy same space.

Could you explain how they work together?

Thanks also I am playing same formation and tactic for some time.

Certain ways/roles it will be difficult, but having the AMC set as AP-Support like I do means he's not darting into the same space as the IF. He's hanging back in the hole looking to make passes.

I do not want to bother you with a lot questions? But are you saying that with this formation it is possible. If you take formation with two mc's it is not possible?

This is a very simple but effective thread, you have inspired me. I shall be testing tonight as I have very similar players with my mighty swindon team (2017 of course)

I do not want to bother you with a lot questions? But are you saying that with this formation it is possible. If you take formation with two mc's it is not possible?

Not at all. I'm just explaining how/why it works with the roles I have.

This is a very simple but effective thread, you have inspired me. I shall be testing tonight as I have very similar players with my mighty swindon team (2017 of course)

Hope you have some luck with it and learn one of two things that can help you in any way possible.

Hi guys! I'm struggling to find the right 4231 system for my teams. I usually have more ball possession, but the other teams make on shot to the goal and they strike goal!!!!

Here is a picture of my tactic:

Could you guys give me any suggestions?

Sorry my poor english..

Hi guys! I'm struggling to find the right 4231 system for my teams. I usually have more ball possession, but the other teams make on shot to the goal and they strike goal!!!!

Here is a picture of my tactic:

Could you guys give me any suggestions?

Sorry my poor english..

Could you change your game to English and lets us take a look at the player roles in English please. Struggling to work out the roles.

Here is in English, dudes.

Anyone can give me some tips to have more possession, defensive security and win the midfield?

I personally don't like a BMW defend. Because he chases players round like a headless chicken. I think making him either a BWM Support, or even a CM defend. That could possibly help with your defensive security.

Thought I'd give this awesome thread a bump

I'd be interested to know if there were any shouts or strategy changes used with the original 4-2-3-1 tactic?

This thread definitely deserved the bump!!

I'd be interested to know if there were any shouts or strategy changes used with the original 4-2-3-1 tactic?

I only used "Exploit The Middle" against teams, (and there are a few of them), that played 4-2-3-1 (with CM's) against me. I always do this whoever I am and whoever the opponent is.

However, shouts are very subjective and should be down to what you want your team to do.

*bump*

Tom, I just thought I'd say, I've read both this and your 4-4-2 thread tonight and they've helped me both massively. I just used something similar to your 4-4-2 with my Liverpool (LFC Marshalls update) and I beat United 3-0 at home.

About to try and make the 4-2-3-1 work and I feel more confident now than I did before. Felt like something wasn't quite clicking, so thank you.

retrodude09

Glad to have helped in any way possible. After all, that's the aim!

retrodude09

Glad to have helped in any way possible. After all, that's the aim!

I've been trying to find what formation you've been using with Arsenal / Dortmund. Has it been this by any chance?

I've been trying to find what formation you've been using with Arsenal / Dortmund. Has it been this by any chance?

Early days with Arsenal it was this, (and I still use it in some "big" away games), but it's now the 4-4-2. As I'm sure you've seen on Twitter, (I'm sure you're on there!), I've got a perfect set of players to play it. Yes it leaves me a bit vulnerable at the back, but it brings alot of goals.

With Dortmund it is this at the minute, with some little changes here and there. But that's to do with the players at my disposal, and not a lack faith in the system.

Early days with Arsenal it was this, (and I still use it in some "big" away games), but it's now the 4-4-2. As I'm sure you've seen on Twitter, (I'm sure you're on there!), I've got a perfect set of players to play it. Yes it leaves me a bit vulnerable at the back, but it brings alot of goals.

With Dortmund it is this at the minute, with some little changes here and there. But that's to do with the players at my disposal, and not a lack faith in the system.

Yeah, I'm on twitter (@jonesjones__) and I've seen your good results. I've noticed with the 4-4-2 that it can be a bit vulnerable but still scores goals. In the 2 games I've used it, I've scored 6 and conceded 2 with 6 points picked up.

I'm only Liverpool so I could get back into the game. I'm hoping I can get a couple of saves in between now and FM14 now I've got myself back in the game.