The Stuttgart Academy Of Higher Learning – An Attempt to Learn to Master the Game

I’m going into this project knowing that it’s about learning. I am not an expert FM player and I have not hit the mark with many of my posts so far. So as you read this do not think of this as advice you can go out and use. In fact, question everything you read here. There is a better chance that I’m wrong than right.

So, why write such extensive posts?

Simple! I’m pretty sure experts such as Cleon, wwfan, lam and all the others started at the same point I’m at. I’m willing to bet they had a learning curve as well. In fact, I believe if you ask them they will tell you they still have much to learn. The best teachers are those who realize they have yet to learn more than they already know.

This thread is for me. I start this for selfish reasons. Having played the game since the early CM incarnations I feel it’s about bloody time I get an idea what I’m doing. However, should you learn anything from this it would please me no end.

I couldn’t even attempt to do take this approach to a save if it wasn’t for the many prolific writers on the tactics and training forum so a big to those guys!

Where to start?

Why, at the top of the forum of course.

The Twelve Steps

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/332585-How-to-Play-FM13-A-Twelve-Step-Guide

wwfan’s twelve step guide is a better place to start than most. So, I’ve loaded up a new save with Stuttgart and I’ll take it from there.

Step 1 – I have admitted that I know not what I’m doing in terms of playing the game and I am now changing my approach.

Step 2 – I don’t know exactly what each slider does and will happily stay with the TC.

Step 3 – I don’t know my players yet so I can’t really say what my main strategy will be, but it is duly noted that attacking doesn’t mean all-out attack and that defensive doesn’t mean no attacks will be made.

Step 4 – Step 4 had a few surprises for me. I didn’t realize that I should have an attack duty in defence. One attack and one defend in midfield or at least one support in attack.

Step 5 – Analyzing the team comparison page I get the following interesting screens.

Overall

There are 18 teams in the German league. Of those 18 teams we have highest Work Rate. That’s great! I love teams who work their butts off. We also have one of the best teams in terms of leadership. Our main weak spot is Strength. We don’t have a particularly strong team.

Takeaway

We probably should commit ourselves too much in the tackle, but with that kind of work rate it would make sense to put pressure on the opposition. Unless Stamina is too low.

Defence

It looks like the defence is our weakest spot. That is something I really don’t like! I like to build my teams around a strong defensive unit that allows us to attack with a sense of security. I looks like the only sense of security we will get with this defensive unit is a false on. The only real highlight is that whenever we manage to climb above our opposition our headers are fairly accurate.

Tackling, Jumping, Strength, Pace and Acceleration are all firmly rated in the bottom half of the league. Marking and Positioning are just within the top half. Something tells me I should consider sitting a bit deep to compensate for our my lack of pace. I believe the Positioning rating will help here.

Defence is definitely the first area of the team I should consider strengthening.

Takeaway

We are definitely not a team that should get stuck in. I think it would be wise to find a formation that has a fairly deep d-line.

Midfield

The previous screenshot held a lot of bad news for us. Fortunately the Midfeld starts to change that up. My midfield isn’t the best at anything, but it’s in the top quartile for 5 out of 8 attributes. Technically our midfield looks decent enough. Teamwork again turns out to be a weakness. I’m extremely pleased by the Stamina rating. Looks like my idea about closing down more often still flies.

Takeaway

The midfield passes the ball well enough for me to consider a short passing game. High passing rating means short passing right? Could the high Creativity and Decisions rating justify allowing more expressive creative freedom? Closing down more often is still on and getting stuck in still isn’t.

Attack

Of all the attributes the attack decides to be poor at it picks Finishing! Ok, it could be far worse. The high levels in Anticipation, Movement, Pace and Acceleration suggests I should try to catch my opponents on the break. Does this go against the Short Passing idea?

Takeaway

I think these attributes suggest a Counter Attacking strategy. Anything else? I simply can’t tell.

Us mods are born with the knowledge, we didn't learn anything or go through this at all if you ask certain individuals

In all seriousness though, I started off very much like you. Football isn't even my first love of sport its second to boxing so I always felt I was on the back foot when playing football games as I didn't have the knowledge of players or really understand tactics. I knew the basics but not how or why something worked. This was the same for both real life tactics and on the game. It took me a long time to get to where I am now though. I spent endless hours watching games, studying the settings/attributes until I understood exactly what worked and why. It's a lot of work but if someone wants to learn then I'd advise taking the time to do a project such as this because it will save you lots of time in the long run.

I do love threads like this though because everyone can learn something from them no matter how good someone is at the game. You pick up a few little tricks here and there. I also like to see it when you can see the change in the user from when he started the thread and gets towards the end of it. Most of the time the user learns a lot and you can tell when they start posting just how far they've come.

I wish you good luck and I'll try and help/post when I get the time and you need it. So I'll be following this thread for sure

This just my opinion and will be happy to be proved wrong but for me good passing doesn't mean short passing, almost the opposite in fact, if we can pass why limit it?

Passing is about style, if you have players that can hit a good long ball to quick fwds let them, what suits your defence and offence more?

I like balanced passing as it doesn't encourage lumping it forwards or dilly dally with no penetration.

Otherwise I agree.

This just my opinion and will be happy to be proved wrong but for me good passing doesn't mean short passing, almost the opposite in fact, if we can pass why limit it?

Passing is about style, if you have players that can hit a good long ball to quick fwds let them, what suits your defence and offence more?

I like balanced passing as it doesn't encourage lumping it forwards or dilly dally with no penetration.

Otherwise I agree.

I agree. If I have a team who are good passers then I tend to choose a more mixed game.

All I would say is that you are considering Closing down more often, even though your defenders are slow. If you close down a lot, the opposition will now and again beat the press and be in behind you, and they will be away as your defenders have no pace.

A deep d line with a pressing game would possibly leave large gaps between the midfield and defence. They all have to press as a team.

I'd be inclined to play a deep d line, standing off opposition, then trying to hit on the break using the good passers in midfield and the anticipation and pace of the forwards.

Great post , I like how it's set out, and I'm looking forward to seeing how it goes.

All I would say is that you are considering Closing down more often, even though your defenders are slow. If you close down a lot, the opposition will now and again beat the press and be in behind you, and they will be away as your defenders have no pace.

A deep d line with a pressing game would possibly leave large gaps between the midfield and defence. They all have to press as a team.

I'd be inclined to play a deep d line, standing off opposition, then trying to hit on the break using the good passers in midfield and the anticipation and pace of the forwards.

Great post , I like how it's set out, and I'm looking forward to seeing how it goes.

I agree, but since the team seems pretty poor in the air, you probably need to make sure that the wide players keep the opposition from putting in too many crosses. If that is best done through putting their wide players under pressure, or by marking them out of the game is probably something you just have to figure out by watching the matches. It will rely a lot on what formation and which wide players you use, I imagine.

For me,

Poor passers -> short passing

Good passers -> mixed to direct passing

because is easier make a short pass, so even if the player isn't good at passing he still be able to make a correct pass.

I'd be inclined to play deep, not much closing down and not stuck in (poor tacklers in midfield). As you have good midfields (pass, creativity and decisions) and pacefull forwards a counter strategy would be nice and fits with deep defensive line and little closing down. Also, early crosses would be nice as your forwards are good at antecipate and heading but poor jumpers.

I’m blown away by the response already! As you can see I definitely intend to take your advice seriously. What I’m mainly concerned about though is the reasoning behind it, so I might have a question here and there

Overall this information makes me think it might be an idea to go for.

But then you guys offered some awesome pieces of advice and I made some changes.

One thing worries me with this. If I use this approach where I “Stand Off More” and go with “More Cautious” tackling won’t I leave too much space for the opposition to build their attack?

Remember it’s still a work in progress so these settings can change many times before I even play the first friendly. Before I submitted the first post I already had doubts about short passing seeing as I rely on speed in attack. It's great to see you managed to single out one of my own glaring doubts.

Step 6 – Shouts. Considering Stuttgarts strengths and weaknesses these are the shouts I can think of. The first one mentioned by wwfan is actually a good one.

Counter Against Slow Opposition

Retain Possession

Pass Into Space

Run at Defence

This one will be my standard shout against teams where the opposition attackers are slower than my defenders.

Counter Against Opponents With Fast Attack

Retain Possession

Pass Into Space

Run at Defence

Drop Deeper

I will use this shout when the opposition attackers are faster than my defenders

I will develop more shouts for other scenarios as I go along. I can envision several scenarios that could pose a problem, but I’m not sure how to deal with them using shouts. What would you do if you were up against forwards who are vastly superior in the air? That’s just one example.

Step 7 – The weather is something I’ve always neglected to consider. How do you deal with different types of weather? More direct play in rainy weather?

Step 8– I’ve always used OI’s. I think they’re a cool feature. I’m not sure I’m using them right though. I tend to man-mark always+weaker foot on big forwards, closing down always+weaker foot on fast strikers, close down always+right/left foot depending on the players role on wide players and close down always+tight mark always+hard tackling always on pivot type players. I don’t know if that’s the best way to go about it so any suggestions are welcome!

Step 9 – I’ll start looking at the stats and analysis of the game every 10-15 minutes and see if I can change anything for the better. I’m not holding my breath for huge improvements here, but I think Cleons “The Full 90 Minutes” thread might be helpful here.

Step 10 – Team talks is another aspect of the game I really love. I have been reasonably successful with those in the past without being prolific, but more about that when we get to a game.

Step 11 – Never stop learning. Well, that’s what this whole thread is about.

Step 12 – Post in the tactics forum for help. Well, I guess I’m well on my way on that point

A final tactic hasn’t been determined yet. The comparison gave me a good overview of what I’ve got to work with, but I need to take a closer look at the squad before making a decision. So, that means I’ll start assessing the squad as best I can

Getting to Know the Squad

It’s time I familiarize myself with the squad. My assistant Eddie Sözer has Judging CA and Judging PA at 12 and 13 respectively. That means he could be far more reliable so I’ll have to take his advice on the squad with a pinch of salt. Never the less, they will be part of my assessment of the squad.

First I think it would be a good idea to define what kind of football I’m looking for. I’m not necessarily looking to create a tiki-taka possession based tactic. In fact I think those are pretty dull. I don’t mind having possession and I don’t mind having most of it, however, I want something that’s efficient. I want a solid defence and efficient goal scoring. I don’t want my team to pass it side and backways for 30 minutes before trying to get to the oppositions box. I want a team that can dominate the opposition. I’m not set on a formation yet, but I like playing with 2 strikers. It might be old-fashioned, but so am I. In earlier incarnations I’ve had reasonable success with the 4-1-3-2 formation and I’m seriously considering using that.

If my assessment of the squad shows that’s not possible at this stage I’ll have to decide to either change the squad to fit my needs or change my choice of formation to fit the squad. I’m leaning towards the former.

Squad Depth

I removed the wing back positions and the sweeper position because none of them had more than 2 stars. This was done to get a better overview of the team. The best keeper is at 2.5 stars so that could be an issue as well.

The rays of hope in this squad comes in the form of Serdar Tasci, William Kvist, Zdravko Kuzmanovic and Martin Harnik. I still think I’m looking at a 3 man central midfield at this stage. I’m not sure what the best approach for assessing the squad is so I guess I’ll do it positionally.

Goalkeepers

The goalkeeper has never been a position I’ve given too much thought tactically. His job is to stop the ball from hitting the net. Right?

Marc is retiring at the end of the season and seems a backup for Sven. Marc is fairly ambitious something I would like to transfer to Sven who is fairly loyal. He has good reflexes. Since he’s retiring I’m not going to spend a lot of time deciding on an individual training focus for him.

Sven’s personality is fairly loyal. I’d like him to become more ambitious like Marc, so I’ll let Marc tutor Sven. Sven has is good in one on one situations, has excellent reflexes, is good at throwing the ball and he can jump. My main concern with Sven is Handling and Positioning. Those are attribute I’ll definitely want to improve in training. Any others? I’ll try to improve his Determination through tutoring and right now I’ll put him on a 6 month rotation of handling and positioning. Could his throwing be useful for launching counter attacks? Does strength matter in relation to that? 14 isn’t bad, but could obviously improve.

Right Back

Oh, here’s a pickle. I have one right back in the senior squad. He’s on loan from Schalke. My Assistant doesn’t rate him.

When I go through these player profiles I’m forcing myself to take a look at a few things I haven’t considered important before reading a bunch of threads on this forum. That’s player personality and PPMs. So before looking at attributes I’ll look at those.

His personality is balanced. As far as I understand personality it doesn’t mean he has every hidden attribute at 10. It means that no specific personality trait is prevalent. Is that right?

Tim has no preferred moves. That means he’ll pretty much do as instructed right?

Looking at his attributes the first things I notice are high ratings in work rate and stamina. If I read the right things into that it means he can run up and down the pitch all day? Other than that he’s got aggression and bravery in good measures. His teamwork makes him a pretty good team player. He’s not the fastest player ever to run up and down the wing, but he’s no turtle either. He’s not a good crosser of the ball and he can’t pass it around very well either. His dribbling is non existant. He’s a decent finisher (with little composure) and he moves well off the ball (but lacks anticipation). Offensively, I might expect him to chip in a few goals by finding unoccupied space in the box, but that seems a bit of a long shot (pardon the pun). He’s a decent tackler, but his marking and positioning skills seem slightly average for this level.

I really don’t know what to do with this lad.

I don’t think he can contribute too much offensively. Defensively he’s ok without being prolific.

2,5 star goalie isn't great. How about Ulreich's potentional stars? I'd try to find a better goalie. If Ulreich's got the potential to become a good goalie in the future, perhaps get a good but oldish goalie (with better determination than Ziegler) for now and get him to tutor Ulreich. Or if Ulreich isn't going to get much better, then get good young GK (obviously more expensive, and harder to find).

-SnUrF

Love the thread so far, I wanted to throw a couple of my opinions out there for you...

You're building a counter attacking tactic with fast players, I'd try to avoid using the shout Retain Possession because it will increase Time Wasting and nullify one of your strengths. Also you should look to incorporate Hit Early Crosses against teams that lack pace in the defense, this will allow you to really take advantage of your quick attacking players.

Also I've recently tried to really understand OIs and how to use them properly. Do not blindly set weaker foot instructions because if the player is good with their weaker foot, you're giving them space to make something happen with that foot and you can get burned. My main strategy with OIs starts with the match report and taking a look at assists and assist locations. From there you can develop an overall strategy, ie: opposing team has a majority of its assists from crosses on the right wing, therefore i will set the right winger to tight marking/hard tackling as well as set the right fb/wb to tight marking, then set the GK to closing down always...That way I can make it harder for that right winger to get the ball in the first place.

I also am very careful with the OI setting closing down, as with the current ME it seems it can cause "clumping" of defenders

I'm curious to hear what others approach to OI is as well. Look forward to seeing future updates from you Madminister

2,5 star goalie isn't great. How about Ulreich's potentional stars? I'd try to find a better goalie. If Ulreich's got the potential to become a good goalie in the future, perhaps get a good but oldish goalie (with better determination than Ziegler) for now and get him to tutor Ulreich. Or if Ulreich isn't going to get much better, then get good young GK (obviously more expensive, and harder to find).

-SnUrF

The goalkeeper situation is a definite concern. Ulreich can reach 3.5 stars according to the assistant. That's not world class, but I think it's good enough to give him a chance to prove himself.

Love the thread so far, I wanted to throw a couple of my opinions out there for you...

You're building a counter attacking tactic with fast players, I'd try to avoid using the shout Retain Possession because it will increase Time Wasting and nullify one of your strengths. Also you should look to incorporate Hit Early Crosses against teams that lack pace in the defense, this will allow you to really take advantage of your quick attacking players.

Also I've recently tried to really understand OIs and how to use them properly. Do not blindly set weaker foot instructions because if the player is good with their weaker foot, you're giving them space to make something happen with that foot and you can get burned. My main strategy with OIs starts with the match report and taking a look at assists and assist locations. From there you can develop an overall strategy, ie: opposing team has a majority of its assists from crosses on the right wing, therefore i will set the right winger to tight marking/hard tackling as well as set the right fb/wb to tight marking, then set the GK to closing down always...That way I can make it harder for that right winger to get the ball in the first place.

I also am very careful with the OI setting closing down, as with the current ME it seems it can cause "clumping" of defenders

I'm curious to hear what others approach to OI is as well. Look forward to seeing future updates from you Madminister

Good point regarding the shouts!

I usually don't blindly set weaker foot in OIs. I tend to look at what foot the player is good/weak with, what I think his role is (IF/Winger) and set the foot thing to what I think will hurt his game most.

Thank you all for reading all of this. I'll be going through the entire team like this and I hope it won't bore you too much

Left Back

One of the things I seem to remember from many a save is the lack of left backs. For this Stuttgart team that isn’t a problem. If there is one thing I have plenty of it’s left backs. The assistant doesn’t rate any of them with more than 2.5 stars.

Cristian Molinaro is a fairly determined player. That’s a good start and the type of player I want in my team. Well, I wouldn’t mind him being labeled a model professional, but fairly determined will do for now.

He has the runs with ball down left, gets forward whenever possible, plays one-twos, dives into tackles and hugs line PPMs.

Isn’t runs with ball PPMs a problem with dribbling as low as Cristian’s? Would knocks ball past opponent be more efficient? I’m considering getting dives into tackles removed. I don’t want him losing his man by overcommitting.

Attribute wise he’s a bit of a speed merchant with a steam engine. Coupled with a fairly high Anticipation I quite like that. His end product (crossing) isn’t what I would hope it would be so I’ll try to improve that in training. Since I’ve decided to remove the dives into tackles PPM I’ll try to improve his dribbling instead of removing his runs with ball PPM. I’ll also try to improve his technique a bit if I can.

Training for Cristiano will be Crossing, Dribbling, Technique on 4 month rotation (how many months of training are there in a FM year?). In addition to that I’ll try to remove the Dives Into Tackles PPM.

Although my assistant doesn’t rate this guy I can see him in my team. His PPMs matches what I want to do tactically. I think.

Like Cristiano Arthur Boka is also fairly determined. He has the Runs with ball down left, gets forward whenever possible, tries long range passes, hits free kicks with power and likes to switch ball to other flank PPMs.

Like Cristiano he looks a decent option for what I want to do with my team. Attribute wise he seems a more rounded player. I notice his anticipation is pretty low which might be a concern. His acceleration is faster than Cristianos, but his top speed is significantly lower. He is a far better dribbler and crosser and his technique is better.

I think Arthur and Cristiano brings many of the same things to the team. I find it difficult to decide which one to choose between the two of them. Maybe Sebastian can settle the matter.

There are a couple of teams who are interested in loaning Sebastian. If I get to the conclusion that he’ll have a hard time getting game time for Stuttgart that is definitely an option.

Sebastian has a balanced personality and no preferred moves. I can’t tutor players who are away on loan right? That wouldn’t make sense. That alone may be reason enough to keep him at the club.

The good news looking at Sebastian’s attributes is that most of the critical ones are in double digits. The bad news is that he has no attribute over 13. I’ll give him this year to prove that he can become a player. He will be tutored by his older counterparts and train key attributes.

Stamina, quickness, positioning and crossing will be the priority this year on 3 month rotation.

That's it from me tonight. I'll be back with more musings about the Stuttgart team tomorrow

Love the thread so far, I wanted to throw a couple of my opinions out there for you...

You're building a counter attacking tactic with fast players, I'd try to avoid using the shout Retain Possession because it will increase Time Wasting and nullify one of your strengths. Also you should look to incorporate Hit Early Crosses against teams that lack pace in the defense, this will allow you to really take advantage of your quick attacking players.

Also I've recently tried to really understand OIs and how to use them properly. Do not blindly set weaker foot instructions because if the player is good with their weaker foot, you're giving them space to make something happen with that foot and you can get burned. My main strategy with OIs starts with the match report and taking a look at assists and assist locations. From there you can develop an overall strategy, ie: opposing team has a majority of its assists from crosses on the right wing, therefore i will set the right winger to tight marking/hard tackling as well as set the right fb/wb to tight marking, then set the GK to closing down always...That way I can make it harder for that right winger to get the ball in the first place.

I also am very careful with the OI setting closing down, as with the current ME it seems it can cause "clumping" of defenders

I'm curious to hear what others approach to OI is as well. Look forward to seeing future updates from you Madminister

Not sure why you are giving this advice but you are 100% incorrect on what the shout does.

Retain Possession – Shortens passing length and slows the tempo down for your players.

Just a note to add, there is an age of limit of 21 for players to be tutored, so Ulreich would be too old to be tutored.

Just a note to add, there is an age of limit of 21 for players to be tutored, so Ulreich would be too old to be tutored.

I wasn't aware of any change and I'm sure I've tutored a 22 year old on FM13. The cut off point used to be 22 as far as I'm aware that's still very much the case. Because at 23 the player can tutor others.

I wasn't aware of any change and I'm sure I've tutored a 22 year old on FM13. The cut off point used to be 22 as far as I'm aware that's still very much the case. Because at 23 the player can tutor others.

Hmm...I've tried to tutor a couple different 22 year olds and they weren't on anyone's list. I always thought that at 22 they couldn't be tutored anymore. Oldest player I've seen as an available tutee is 21, but maybe I just haven't seen the right circumstances.

That aside, Ulreich is definitely too old to be tutored at 23.

Not sure why you are giving this advice but you are 100% incorrect on what the shout does.

Retain Possession – Shortens passing length and slows the tempo down for your players.

...and it decreases width if I remember correctly, Mr Cleon

Just a quick point from me (good start to a thread btw) regarding passing:

Short passing can be easier, but, of course, your guys will naturally need to be closer together which 'crunches' the pitch and means the opposition have less work to do to get an interception. If your team are bad passers and poor movers choosing short passing could be disasterous. For me, choosing a passing philosophy goes hand-in-hand with how well my team employ movement. Being technically good enough to pass and control the ball is only 1 part of being able to play short intricate stuff (or short not-intricate stuff).

This doesn't necessarily mean you should change anything from your setup, just something to consider.

...and it decreases width if I remember correctly, Mr Cleon

No it doesn't, you are mistaken

Not sure why you are giving this advice but you are 100% incorrect on what the shout does.

Retain Possession – Shortens passing length and slows the tempo down for your players.

So, where does that put me in regards to a counter strategy focusing on attacking speed? According to the comparison screens the Stuttgart team should be more than capable of using the retaining possession shout. They are good passers, especially in midfield.

Since that shout includes Pass Into Space and Run At Defence as well I envision the team playing it around amongst themselves until they find an opening for a throughball which a runner will hopefully latch on to and charge towards the goal. Does that make sense?

No it doesn't, you are mistaken

True, short passing from team instructions does it, not retain possession

This thread looks fantastic! Will definitely look at some ideas from here.

Not sure why you are giving this advice but you are 100% incorrect on what the shout does.

Retain Possession – Shortens passing length and slows the tempo down for your players.

Not sure why you have to be so rude, but if you noticed at the top of my post:

Love the thread so far, I wanted to throw a couple of my opinions out there for you...

What's unfortunate is that you're very knowledgeable about the game, but like others have said on this forum you have absolutely ZERO tact.

I apologize for the misinterpretation and will go back to just lurking the boards.

Not sure why you have to be so rude, but if you noticed at the top of my post:

What's unfortunate is that you're very knowledgeable about the game, but like others have said on this forum you have absolutely ZERO tact.

I apologize for the misinterpretation and will go back to just lurking the boards.

No need for the overreaction, I just pointed out something didn't work like you think. No need to throw a hissy fit. I didn't mean to cause offence

So, where does that put me in regards to a counter strategy focusing on attacking speed? According to the comparison screens the Stuttgart team should be more than capable of using the retaining possession shout. They are good passers, especially in midfield.

Since that shout includes Pass Into Space and Run At Defence as well I envision the team playing it around amongst themselves until they find an opening for a throughball which a runner will hopefully latch on to and charge towards the goal. Does that make sense?

Kind of yeah. You might find that you don't always need to have the shouts activated though.

For me,

Poor passers -> short passing

Good passers -> mixed to direct passing

because is easier make a short pass, so even if the player isn't good at passing he still be able to make a correct pass.

That may ring true if you're considering a single pass, yes. Obviously, it is far easier to give the ball to the next player than to accurately play a ball twenty yards ahead. However, holistically you're telling a poor side to create chances from moves with many many short passes as opposed to a more direct style of few. The more complicated the move, the higher the likelyhood of it crumbling before the ball even reaches the goalmouth or thereabouts. With particularly poor sides, players will hit more direct balls when pushed anyway, so that might balance it out a bit. But there is a reason why you've always been adviced to encourage a directer style when going lower leagues.

Likewise, with short passing, you're encouraging poor players to play a possession based game, which can end up with them being caught in possession or making bad passes in areas where interception can prove costly, even more so if they're aggressively being closed down. It's not just a case of poor passers vs bad passers anyway, as your overall strategy needs be taken into account also. Being two nill down you likely don't want to encourage your side to play but the safest of passes, and with your side sitting deep and likely being pushed you don't want the players sitting the deepest to purely keep the ball, but also to clear the lines.

If you're strictly using the TC, this won't be much of an issue even if you're going "shorter" in the team settings. Those settings are a modifier on the base values set by the mentality, strategy and player roles you pick. Which means that players sitting deep in a defensive strategy won't be set in such a way that they're heavily encouraged to play but purely possession based passes when going "shorter". It merely encourages them to try to keep possession a tad more.

Central Defenders

Ok, after a lot of mediocrity we’ll now see some more of that, but we will also see one of the players my assistant manager considers one of the best players in the team. Let’s have a look at them.

At 4 stars Serdar is a player I have been looking forward to having a closer look at. Serdar is Resolute which I absolutely love in a player. His preferred role is as a ball playing defender and he has the runs with ball down centre, gets into opposition area, marks opponent tightly and dives into tackles PPMS. Of those the only one I’m absolutely certain I want in a defender, ball playing or otherwise.

In Cleon’s Ajax Youth Development thread I figured I’d offer some input on PPMs as you can see here: http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/343043-Ajax-Youth-Development-%E2%80%93-When-The-Real-World-Meets-Football-Manager?p=8450962&viewfull=1#post8450962

If you keep reading you’ll also notice that Cleon wasn’t exactly impressed. One of the shouts I suggested for the ball playing defender was gets forward whenever possible, but if I read Cleon’s response to my suggestion correctly that’s not such a good idea. If that’s not a good idea do I really want my best defender to run with the ball through the centre of the pitch every time he gets the ball?

If you look at his attributes you’ll notice that he isn’t even an accomplished dribbler. His main strengths are Tackling, Composure, Decisions, Determination, Teamwork, Pace and Stamina. Those are some good strengths to have, but I do have concerns. His Concentration and Positioning are two major concerns. Unfortunately I can’t put him on a Concentration attribute focus, but I’ll certainly spend time training his Positioning. I would also like to improve his Heading, Jumping and Strength, but I do believe his poor Positioning is the primary concern. I’ll train Positioning for 6 months and then put the other 3 on a 2 month rotation.

I’ll also work to remove 3 of his PPMs; get forward whenever possible, runs with ball down centre and dives into tackles. He seems to be close to his potential so we’ll see what we can do with him.

Other than that he looks a decent defender that could be the heart of my defence.

Maza is fairly loyal and has no PPMs.

Looking at his attributes his strengths are Anticipation, Composure, Teamwork, Jumping and Strength. He’s a decent Marker and Tackler, and he can position himself fairly well. His core positional attributes aren’t too bad, but he’s not exceptional either. He can do a job without excelling.

Actually, I have to say I’m pleasantly surprised we have a defender who isn’t totally aerially inept. The comparison screens seemed to suggest that

I training I think I wan’t to take his heading to 15 at least. Other than that I’m not too sure what to do with him.

Niedermeier has a balanced personality and no PPMs.

In terms of attributes his strongest points are Heading, Bravery, Teamwork, Work Rate, Jumping and Stamina.

I’m not quite sure what to make of this guy. His core defensive attributes aren’t great, but not the worst either. Nothing really seems to make him stand out. In training I want to focus on Marking, Tackling, Composure and Positioning in a 3 month rotation.

Balanced personality, no PPMs, bit of a groundhog day experience I suppose

Strong points are Heading, Bravery, Natural Fitness, Stamina and Strength. Of those in the senior squad Vier is far from the best option. I think I’ll look to shift him to free up space for someone better or someone with potential.

I'm another player that's trying to fully get into understanding a lot of this stuff (having played since 1999) so please take all my comments with the requisite levels of salt!

Tactically, once I'd worked out the way I wanted to play (which you have with your fast, counter-attacking play) I think I'd be tempted not to use any shouts at first and watch the games to see what the basic TC instructions are doing and if they're causing your team to play the way you want them to? If they're not you can use the shouts to tweak certain areas (make sure you know what the shout does before you pick it though - as has already been demonstrated, it's possible to interpret them multiple ways if you don't check),

My two pennies - First, I'm assuming you have the counter attack option checked on tactics (we can't see it on the screenshots)? I ask because the options you've picked set the default tempo towards the slow end so you need to tick that option to have the team look for a much faster counter-attack option. My understanding of your combination of settings is that when your team wins the ball back they'll immediately look for a quick counter-attack but if it's not an option they'll then play a slower, more measured game. With the looks of your midfield you can leave it to their decisions and creativity as to whether that's shorter or more direct passing, I don't really see it being too much of a concern at this level. Playing deep looks to be good to me too as though your defence isn't horribly slow it seems to be reasonably positionally poor which isn't great under any circumstances but is probably suicidal with a high line.

I may be wrong about this (I'm going to stop saying that, see original disclaimer at top of post) but I think with a deeper defensive line you're likely to see the opposition getting more of a chance to cross and taking more long shots from around 20 yards. With that in mind I might look to purchase/train keepers towards aerial ability, command of area and reflexes. Your keeper with strong one-on-ones shouldn't use that stat as much as unless you get hit on the break that shouldn't happen as often as with a high line.

Lastly, my opinion on the short vs direct passing: I think that if you have a midfield/attack with good passing, creativity and decisions you leave it at mixed and let them do what they want based on situation. I'm managing in League 2 at the moment and it's a veritable nightmare trying to find the right passing style though. Move towards short and you don't lose the ball as much but your CBs and keeper tend to lose it quite a lot with loose passing in dangerous areas. When you go direct though you've great big useless lumps of players trying to pick out 50 yards Hollywood passes and through balls all day long because they're morons who don't understand that they can't pass. I've had to resort to individual passing settings for each of my positions; anyone who can't pass tries to get the ball to someone who can (for League 2) with short passing and then those players have direct passing so they can move the ball more quickly and incisively. You do lose goals to bad passes and mistakes but, come on, it's League 2... that would happen whatever you did.

Hi iwantpie,

I think you're absolutely right about learning what the TC settings are making the team do. I'll definitely do that during the friendlies. The friendlies will be used to build match fitness and to have a look at how my settings make my team play.

You may have noticed that I only defined two shouts earlier on. I plan to look at the team comparison before each match and try to create shouts to counter a threat or take advantage of a weakness.

I too am a bit concerned about a deep defensive line, particularly if I stand off and decide to be cautious in the tackle. I'm very concerned that I'll leave too much open space.

Mixed passing sounds like my thing right now, but we'll see.

Defensive Midfielders

Rathgeb is a spirited DM. He has no PPMs. He prefers plying as a Deep Lying Playmaker.

His best attributes are Corners, Free Kick Taking, Penalty Taking, Influence and Work Rate. He is slow and weak. My bet is he has more or less reached his full potential at this stage.

I like his personality. Some of his mental attributes could be better, but I’ll keep him around, if for nothing else then to transfer his personality.

Bar is fairly ambitious, runs with ball through centre and shoots from distance.

He is 24 years old and should be close to his potential, yet no single attribute is above 15. At first glance his PPMs don’t seem to match up with the related attributes very well.

How big of a deal is that? Does a PPM only mean the player will do something more or less frequently regardless of his skill level, or will it add to his ability to do it? The game says he is best as an anchor man, but even in that role he’ll need to improve lots of stuff.

I’d prefer not using too many specialized roles before I know exactly what they mean. So, if I decide to employ a defensive midfielder it will probably be in the Defensive Midfielder role. Of the attributes I can improve through training that means I’ll train his Marking, Tackling and Positioning on 4 month rotation.

Central Midfielders

This section should contain some of my very best players if the squad depth screen is anything to go by.

Meet Kuzmanovic. He is fairly ambitious, likes to dictate the tempo and hits his free kicks with power.

His best attributes are Long Shots, Passing, Penalty Taking, Composure, Concentration, Decisions, Teamwork, Balance and Natural Fitness. Now, I know I said I wanted to minimize the use of specialized roles, but this lad makes me think I might want to go with a playmaker of some sort. Additionally, I can’t help thinking I might be able to squeeze a few free kick goals out of him, especially if I train his Free Kick Taking up a few points. In addition to that I want to train his Tackling, Positioning and possibly Marking. The former two 5 months each and the latter 2 months to start with.

Definite starter.

Being a Dane I know a bit about William Kvist from his time at FCK and the Denmark team. He is listed as being a light-hearted person, but he is still a guy who knows what he wants. From the beginning of his career at FCK he insisted he would be best in a central Midfield role. Ståle Solbakken wanted him to play as a right back. Being the professional that he is Kvist took all the game time he could get, even if it wasn’t his preferred position, but kept fighting for a Central Midfield role. He’s the kind of player who has always been able to rise to the next level when his career needed him to.

As I mentioned he is light hearted. He has the following PPMs: plays short simple passes, comes deep to get ball, dictates tempo, looks for pass rather than attempting to score, stops play.

I see him as the withdrawn member of my midfield setup, he is also an accomplished Defensive Midfielder, so that’s also worth a consideration, although I would prefer him in his favoured position.

Kvist has good attributes in Long Throws, Anticipation, Composure, Concentration, Decisions, Influence, Positioning, Teamwork, Work Rate, Natural Fitness, Pace and Stamina. A role of Ball Winning Midfielder is suggested. I like that role but am a bit worried by his Marking and Tackling, so those could be a training focus.

Gentner is Sporting and has no PPMs. Here’s a thing, I hate Sporting players. In real life as well as in FM. Players are paid their huge salaries for winning games, not for good sportsmanship, breach of regulations are there for refs to handle.

That rant aside Gentner is certainly not the best of my senior central midfielders.

His main attributes are Teamwork, Work Rate, Natural Fitness, Pace and Stamina. I see him in a Central Midfielder role will want to improve his Marking, tackling and Positioning.

Right Wing

Harnik is my only right wing, but he can also play centrally as either an AMC or an ST. He is fairly ambitious, runs with the ball down right, moves into channels and comes deep to get the ball.

He has high Work Rate, Acceleration, Pace and Stamina. He’s not much of a crosser, or a dribbler, but he does have speed.

I’ll definitely train his Dribbling, he could be deadly as a better dribbler. I don’t like the Comes deep to get the ball PPM as I don’t want him to start his runs too deep in the field. His composure could do with a bit of training as well.

Left Wing

Traoré has a balanced personality, runs with ball down left, plays one-twos and knocks the ball past oppenents (is it me or are these things starting to sound more and more like something from a dating site profile?)

Traoré has two really good attributes, Acceleration and Agility.

I have two out and out wing players. One for each wing. One is pretty good, the other is Traoré, not the best, but decent at what he does. I have to tell you, considering both wing players can also play in the AMC positions that I’m considering a 4-2-3-1 with 3 AMCs. In that formation Traoré would be an Inside Forward.

Alternatively I’m considering the same formation, but with an AMR, and AMC, and an AML. In that formation Harnik and Traoré would be my rockets in the pocket so to speak

Balance, Dribbling and Crossing are on a 4 month rotation with this lad.

Hi iwantpie,

I think you're absolutely right about learning what the TC settings are making the team do. I'll definitely do that during the friendlies. The friendlies will be used to build match fitness and to have a look at how my settings make my team play.

You may have noticed that I only defined two shouts earlier on. I plan to look at the team comparison before each match and try to create shouts to counter a threat or take advantage of a weakness.

I too am a bit concerned about a deep defensive line, particularly if I stand off and decide to be cautious in the tackle. I'm very concerned that I'll leave too much open space.

Mixed passing sounds like my thing right now, but we'll see.

I don't think you need to be worried, per se, it's just being aware of the ways a deep line will be threatened vs. a high line. A deep line seems to play to your strengths but if it also plays to the opposition's strengths (e.g. they have a very skilled AM in the hole) then it's about weighing it up. Deep lines and standing off opponents helps you to keep your shape so it's harder for the opponent to open up gaps in your defensive line as your players go chasing after the ball.

EDIT: From the looks of your midfield you seem to have a clear best 4. Kvist is suited to BWM, Kuzmanovic to DLP and your two wide men are wingers rather than inside forwards or playmakers from the looks of it. Have to see what strikers you've got but it looks like a 4-2-2-2 to me with an AML and an AMR behind two strikers.

How big of a deal is that? Does a PPM only mean the player will do something more or less frequently regardless of his skill level, or will it add to his ability to do it? The game says he is best as an anchor man, but even in that role he’ll need to improve lots of stuff.

I was wondering this too as I was pondering over the list of PPMs. Most of them look like they would just adjust tactical sliders 'behind the scenes' regardless of team instructions. E.g. a player with 'gets forward whenever possible' will always have Runs From Deep set higher than he appears to on his slider reflecting how much he likes to do it, regardless of his instructions. Does professionalism play into how much a player ignores or gives into his PPMs if they contradict match instructions? I.e. a player with higher professionalism will ignore his own PPMs if they conflict with what the manager tells him to do.

EDIT: From the looks of your midfield you seem to have a clear best 4. Kvist is suited to BWM, Kuzmanovic to DLP and your two wide men are wingers rather than inside forwards or playmakers from the looks of it. Have to see what strikers you've got but it looks like a 4-2-2-2 to me with an AML and an AMR behind two strikers.

That could be a good idea.

Central Attacking Midfield

Torun has a balanced personality, dwells on the ball and cuts inside.

His natural position is in the AMC role, but he can play on either wing as well as in Attack.

Looking at his attributes I first notice the low Determination, I’ll definitely have to find him a good mentor. He doesn’t have many good mental attributes, but he does have flair. His best attributes are first touch and Agility. He is also good dribbler and has good Technique. He isn’t exactly slow, but not a speedster by any means. I think Tutoring this lad has to be a major priority. His mental attributes simply have to improve, if I don’t have a good mentor in house I’ll have to find one.

I think he could provide a bit of trickery to the side.

I want to train his Off The Ball, Composure, Strength and Balance attributes this year in a 3 month rotation.

Hajnal is fairly professional and could be a candidate to tutor Torun. He tries killer balls often, shoots from distance, curls ball, dictates tempo and tries long range passes.

His best attributes are Corners, Crossing, Passing, Technique, Creativity, Flair and Agility. A lot about Hajnal says Advanced Playmaker. He is best in his natural AMC role, but can also play in many other midfield roles.

At 31 isn’t it best just to train him in the role I select for him?

Strikers

Balanced. Places shots, avoids using weaker foot, tries first time shots.

His best attributes are Heading, Anticipation, Composure, Off The Ball and Acceleration. There are plenty of strikers who are faster than Ibisevic, but he has good movement and anticipation. I’m no expert, but Anticipation, Composure, Off the ball and Acceleration doesn’t seem a bad mix for a striker.

I would like to improve his Finishing and Dribbling, but will probably set him on role specific training.

Okazaki is a spirited character. He moves into channels, gets forward whenever possible, shoots with power, dives into tackles and tries first time shots.

His best attributes are Heading, Anticipation, Bravery, Work Rate and Agility.

With Okazaki I want to see if I can improve Composure, Off The Ball and Finishing.

Audel is fairly determined, runs with ball down left and argues with officials.

His only great attribute is Acceleration. Although he looks fairly well rounded he is probably the least needed of my four strikers. I may try to shift him to get cash for more urgent needs.

Cacau is a fairly professional kind of guy. He runs with ball down centre, moves into channels, comes deep to get the ball, plays one-twos and looks for pass rather than attempting to score.

Bright side: here’s my rocket striker. Not so bright side: Looks for pass rather than attempting to score! Really! Ok, I get that his finishing is mediocre (at best), but a striker who doesn’t want to score? He is a half decent passer, but I’ll still try to remove that PPM.

That was a mouthful! I'm not set on a formation or anything yet, iwantpie's 4-2-2-2 suggestion appeals to me, but I'm not sure about any of that yet. Now I'm going to read a few threads, and see what I come up with.

I wouldn't remove Cacau's PPM, he's perfect fit for DLF/S role. Considering quality of your team I think he must be your starter. And higher up Ibisevic as a goal machine (I hope so!).

Setting Up The First XI

The game is about much more than just tactics and I selected Stuttgart because they had top training facilities and a top youth academy. I want to develop the future superstars of football through this team. To do that I need the proper backroom staff that will feed me the type of players I need. That can’t happen until I know the style of football I’ll be setting up to play, including formation. That’s why I’ve spent a lot of time going through the squad.

I decided it would be a great idea to set up a formation and overlay the PPMs to see if it makes sense.

On the surface the above looks alright. I haven’t made a final decision in regards to roles and especially duties.

Since this is inherently a 4-4-2 it shares the tactical weakness of all 4-4-2 formations which is represented by the red spot. I’m worried that moving the MR and ML to the AMR and AML positions will add additional openings to the formation, as represented by the blue spots.

Another concern is the movement of my players. Below you see me applying my l33t graphic skills to try to illustrate the movement my players will make due to their PPMs.

A blueish arrow illustrates runs with the ball and gets forward whenever possible PPMS, the white-orangeish ones illustrates comes deep to get the ball PPMs.

Disclaimer: I don’t normally go to all this trouble when creating a tactic, but this time I really want to try to understand what I’m doing

Those PPMs to my understanding work when we have the ball, so the arrows represent the shape when we’re attacking. Right?

For one who has largely ignored PPMs until now this is a bit of a lightbulb moment. It’s easy to see how different PMs will alter our shape. I’m still worried we are exposing ourselves to quick counter attacks by leaving a lot of space open.

So, I’ll play around with different possible formations as well.

For inspiration I decided to ask which formations my Assistant thought would work well. The first was a 4-4-2 formation, that has been covered albeit in a more attacking version. The next is a 4-4-1-1 formation. I get why that is considered an option, but it withdraws my wingers away from their favored formations. That worries me, although the system needs to be more important than the individual player. The problem is, however, is that my only qualified MR is Gentner, who is a natural in the MC position. An option would be to put the competent Torun out there, that would leave Gentner as a capable backup for the central mid.

After a bit of Tinkering here is what it would look like.

Here’s how the movement would be. The black arrow indicates that he cuts inside.

I’m ever so slightly afraid of the lack of widh on the right side. More importantly, Cacau is, as has been pointed out before, more of a deep lying forward, he prefers setting others up for the goal. That would mean we would be lacking a goal scorer. Wouldn’t it? I’m not sure a single forward formation with Cacau is a good option.

This is a cracking thread, really enjoying it. It looks like you're doing what I do in my lunch breaks at work () - plan shapes, formations, player assignments, etc.

Cacau could be as good option as single forward if you use IF. He has excellent PPM to play as Treq. opening space to one or two IF cutting inside and scoring. Also a MC(A) could exploit the space that Cacau opens.

In second formation you choose, Cacau isn't the right guy to play upfront as you have anyone to exploit that space because W(A) won't cut inside and the AP(A) only have RFD mixed, if I recall correctly.

My sugestions would be change the BWM to CM(D/S) because with such high closing down that BWM has you really have one midfielder supporting the defence without ball, in first formation.

In second formation are various options. With Cacau upfront you need someone to score goals so change the AP to AM(A) and manually change the W(A) to cut inside. Once again the BWM could cause troubles when defending. Other option would be play with Ibisevic as AF(A).

I wouldn't remove Cacau's PPM, he's perfect fit for DLF/S role. Considering quality of your team I think he must be your starter. And higher up Ibisevic as a goal machine (I hope so!).

+1, exactly what I was going to say and I see that's what you've gone for. Looking at the formation, given that Traore likes to play one-twos it may make sense to play him on the same side of the pitch as Kuzmanovic as the playmaker is more likely to receive the one-two and play a through ball to put him beyond the defensive line or into space? Another alternative could be switching the roles so Traore attacks and Harnik supports and then play Traore on the same side as Cacau who also likes one-twos. I'm envisaging Cacau dropping off deep towards the flanks (comes deep for ball and moves into channels) and linking with Traore, playing one-twos that put the winger behind the line and Traore then crossing in for Ibizevic or shooting.

I have no idea if this works on the pitch like it does in my head though!

If you find yourself conceding a lot of ground behind the wingers you could set them both to support, have them man mark opposition full-backs or both? That should help if it's giving you trouble in a match. If it's opposition wingers getting too much space you can push your full-backs up so they start closer to them

Serdar Tasci is half way to becoming a good Libero with those PPM's, if only he had killer balls and you unlearnt dives into tackles. He'd be an awesome Libero

What I can see from your 4-4-1-1 formation is that your left side of the pitch will be extremely exposed as you have DW and BWM. They both have very high closing down (DW even highest possible if I remember correctly) and hard tackling, which means they will chasing the ball on every inch of the pitch and that leaves big hole. Adding to this attacking-minded left back you have all your levt flank exposed and Ribery or Robben (or other great and clever winger) will be very enjoying while exploiting that space

What I would recommend is changing left winger's role to wide midfielder/support or winger/support if you feel he's great dribbler. Boka will be overlapping him creating space, Cacau drops deep, right winger cuts inside. And attacking midfielder should more often drift into the holes, DLF/S and AM/S are working great for me. Both have roaming ticked so they filling each other's space nicely. That's how I see this if you decide to go with that formation.

EDIT:

But this is your thread and you trying to master tactics. We just give you some ideas, it's up to you whether you decide to use them or not. But most important thing is to see how the system you created is working in game and adjusting some minor tweaks when you feel something is not right. That's how you should master this game

I love this thread. Seeing how you go by from scratch is very interesting and insightful.

Just my two cents on trainig focus; I do not think I would have put any emphasis on training the header attribute for the central defenders - unless the attribute was very crappy (say below 10). After all, winning the header (with jumping, strength + bravery) and clearing the danger is more important than header-accuarcy - i'll leave that to the Klose and Cavanis out there.

Btw. have you considered a more aggressive squad approach and maybe transfer listing all your "he's not that good, but I think I'll keep him for now" - players, and getting some young talent or someone who fits the tactic better instead?

I am playing with a 4411 which is ppm based myself, and what I have done to tackle the zone you refer to is to reduce the mentality of the BWM..making sure he is equal to the lowest DC on the pitch, and I completely removed HUB cos for my player its almost suicidal cos he aint that cool under pressure. You may also consider putting him inline with your libero, thats how the libero will move forward cos the BWM will take his position or at least cover that zone when he goes up. I can understand why the BWM is there cos your left side is a lance type attack, very much like my 4411, there is nothing wrong with that..as long as your BWM covers the zone.

Another thing you can do is if you find that some formations are coming at ya..is to go exploit the middle, cos that shout removes the RFD for your fullbacks essentially turning them into anchors. You could avoid using shouts altogether once you get the hang of what you want from your tactic. My advice is to avoid that for now. I just popped into this thread and was surprised to see a formation very much like my 4411, except that my lance is on the right and yours is on the left and my libero is on the left..its very risky for me..but i just love how we play now. Our roles are different but the general principles are there..and you will only get this formation to work better..its quite sweet to see when all the ppms come together

I like the 4411 its the poor mans 4231 if built rite and by the looks of your formation you are well on way to making a brilliant formation. The 4411 is currently my favorite formation in the game. By my reckoning this is one of the best formations in the game now, I used it to beat Manchester City for the first time and whilst we were out shot in terms of SOT, we managed ot keep them ranged....good luck

loving this !! keep up the good work

First class thread, inspired to start a new game completely from scratch. KUTGW

Great post. Itoo am in the learning stages. One point to consider. Your Right winger Harnik. Can you afford not to play him. He seems pretty good. A 4-4-1-1 would'nt accomodate him in his favoured position. Maybe I'm wrong but it's something you might want to consider. He's rated 3 and a half stars at AM R in your squad depth

I'm blown away by all the great feedback! Even if I don't manage to respond to all of it I want you to know that I read everything and take it all in. I have to admit the 4-4-1-1 was my least favourite choice of the Assistant suggestions, but some of the feedback here is making me seriously reconsider. I like the sound of a "lance" tactic. Just sounds cool. I know that isn't necessarily the best decision making instrument, but that's how I work.

Tasci as a libero? That's something I hadn't considered. Are you suggesting a 3-man defence Cleon? That would be cool.

I'm not set on the roles at all! In fact, so far I've gone with the description of the roles in order to make sense of it. Haven't looked at the individual sliders at all, and I'm not sure I'm ready for that just yet.

Arab: Yeah, I'm a bit concerned about leaving Harnik out as well. He looks a potent weapon.

I'm posting 2 more tactics in a short while and I think I may have come to a (potentially quite obvious, when you think about it) realization about PPMs. As mentioned I haven't given them much thought in the past, now I see how they can be used to add an extra dimension to your tactic. I'll talk more about that later.

Oh, and keep the feedback coming, I'm loving it